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Bodasafa
12-03-2011, 11:54 PM
So I had gone from the usual mastery hybrids and full stam in blues to all out mastery through firelands.

Now after gearing out in FL, I'm CTC capped at like 105% without shield block up (so passive).

I'll link the armory instead of listing other stats: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/eldrethalas/Bodasafa/advanced

So I see other top tanks (likely CTC passive capped as well) going back to Hybrids and full stam gems.

So keep pouring on the mastery or not? As I understand it more mastery is just gravy on top with more % chance to crit block for 60% right?

Bigbad
12-04-2011, 02:21 AM
Stamina is certainly an option right now but if its best I'm not sure yet, currently 4/8 normal 25man after one raid and didn't really feel the need for more stamina (100,4% CTC 212k hp raidbuffed), will need to do at least a few heroic bosses to make up my mind. I'm aiming to get the last 2% CTC while keeping 1 stamina trinket and a stamina flask with mastery gemming.

One big factor is the raidsize, 25man tanks will want more stamina then 10man tanks in general.

Mastery after unhittable is about 0,31% damage reduction and effects about 0,9% (60% block*1,5% crit block) of all hits while avoidance past unhittable is about 0,37% damage reduction and effects about 0,7%(state of DR) of all hits. Mastery was clearly better before unhittable since it effected 1,5% of all hits but after unhittable it barely effects more hits then avoidance and has less overall damage reduction.

Gemming might depend more on trinket choice then anything else since you want to keep unhittable. Stamina is always good for progression while slightly undergeared. In your case I would go for socketbonuses your missing now with mastery/stam and mastery/parry gems and for the rest just see if you feel like you need more stamina. One small thing your parry:dodge ratio seems slightly off should be at 1,2-1,3.

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 04:30 AM
I'm a 10 man raider , forgot to mention that.

The reason I have a higher dodge than parry ratio is due to gift of the wild and my trinket. I'm seeing about a 1% increase to parry from Gift and IIRC about the same from the trinket, that's a 1 min CD. I'm also noticing the same trend from the top tanks I watch (with dodge being higher than parry by a % or 2), the only conclusion I could come to is the reasoning I used.

I plan on the Mastery with Dodge use vendor trinket, paired with the Stam and proc Mastery on chance.

Based on your math it would seem that going for more avoidance after CTC cap would yield more net gain, albeit a small one.

Fetzie
12-04-2011, 04:35 AM
Don't forget that taking overall less damage does not necessarily mean that you are easier to keep alive. In some cases, while avoidance would mean you take less damage, getting more stamina might make you easier to heal as the healers have more time to react. Especially at the beginning of a patch when you don't "know" the instance, even more so with looking towards hard-modes, stamina can be the better choice.

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 04:46 AM
Yeah, I'm generally a fan of static things, instead of RNG chance to do something, so after CTC cap, going for more stamina feels like a more stable approach. I guess I needed the math Bigbad sited to help decide that.

It looks like maintaining CTC cap and then regeming for stamina where viable would be the best bet. The gains from geming hybrids in regards to avoidance will be really small.

Rowdy
12-04-2011, 06:05 AM
Well, I feel like if you gut enough gear to be CTC-capped and able to swap some gems from mastery to avoidance/stamina, the HP you get from the gear is enough anyway. I simple started to gem for mastery/avoidance or mastery/stamina (http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/forscherliga/rowdy/advanced) to get all the socket-bonusses to just max out the overall stats I can get and it wirks really well.

There is no "right" or "wrong" here, just personal taste and I always felt that after I am able to be healed decently, it is my job to reduce damage taken :)

Bigbad
12-04-2011, 06:49 AM
I'm aiming for the vp + stam mastery proc trinket as well. Other option would be the vp + stacking dodge trinket but i would probably gem a little more stamina with those 2 trinkets.

With battleshout and motw your parry:dodge ratio would be exactly 1 which isn't optimal unless you really want to minimize DR. Trinket might influence it a little but it only has a 25% uptime but if you want to balance around the trinket you should also keep windwalk (600 dodgerating) with 30ish% uptime in mind. The only reason I see is to minimize diminishing returns, close to 102,4% with flask and/or some other gear maybe? mirror trinket comes to mind. But it just disregards Hold the Line.

As far as stamina goes I like the bigger buffer but if I rarely drop low i feel its largely wasted and i could help the healers out more with more mastery/avoidance. Can't wait to get into dragonsoul 2nd time tomorrow been fun so far :)

kopcap
12-04-2011, 07:36 AM
I am sitting at 218k raid buffed with 6 DS pieces, Mirror/Spindle and stam gems. CTC on the dot.

Dropping Mirror for a 687 stam trinket gives about 3.6k HP after rebalancing mastery.

Trinkets so far pan out to be Mirror, Spindle, VP (about 5.5% on use) and Indomitable depending on the fight. Not a fan of Vortex and dodge trinkets.

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 09:15 AM
I'm still keeping the Tol Barad trinket around, I haven't seen a use for it yet in Dragon Soul, but I won't hesitate to pull it out if I see a ton of resistible magic damage in heroic modes. 1 Min CD is just to hawt.

Dreadski
12-04-2011, 12:56 PM
FWIW and I might be crucified for saying this but, Xav's gearing for FL heroic was to hit 102.4 exactly and then stack stam. Judging by his armory he's back to all mastery gems and 2x mastery trinkets, and I haven't seen another thread pop up on premoguild, so I don't know what is going on in DS.

kopcap
12-04-2011, 03:53 PM
I'm still keeping the Tol Barad trinket around, I haven't seen a use for it yet in Dragon Soul, but I won't hesitate to pull it out if I see a ton of resistible magic damage in heroic modes. 1 Min CD is just to hawt.Well here we go:

- High stacks of Void Bolt on Ooze Boss
- Scream and transition AOE on Warlord
- Tanking Dreadblade and Barrages on Gunship
- Bolt on Madness

And keep in mind that all these fights have some serious AOE element in them and your SW may be required by the raid, effectively leaving you with the trinket and spell block only.

Sure, lots of fights seem pure meley, thats great. But Mirror is still Mirror :)

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 03:58 PM
FWIW and I might be crucified for saying this but, Xav's gearing for FL heroic was to hit 102.4 exactly and then stack stam. Judging by his armory he's back to all mastery gems and 2x mastery trinkets, and I haven't seen another thread pop up on premoguild, so I don't know what is going on in DS.

Actually his current armory along with Graf from Vodka show them using hybrids.

Dreadski
12-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Ah, posted without looking. Been a couple days.

klausi
12-04-2011, 07:14 PM
I am sitting at 218k raid buffed with 6 DS pieces, Mirror/Spindle and stam gems. CTC on the dot.
Looks like those 397 pieces (maybe that extra socket?) gave you a large bump. I'm sitting at 205k raidbuffed with ctc cap, 2 ds pieces + rag shoulders and mirror/spindle and there isn't much wiggle room for a large chunk of stamina gems just yet.

My actual plan is: getting ctc capped with mirror, spindle or the new vp trinket (maybe later ones reforged to avoidance to don't waste something) plus one stamina trinket and gemming mostly stamina (but maybe still for color?) after thinking about one of your post at MMO-C.

If i can get my hands on all mastery/x items (will take some time, yay 10m + running with another block tank) i maybe can even use a souldrinker weapon and two stamina trinkets, but their proccs doesn't look to tempting compared to mirror (magical damage reduction when i need it) or spindle (20k absorb when i really need it).

Fact: there's a LOT of unblockable damage and even with both tanks using their raidcooldowns every other minute i had a rather hard time surviving bursts for the first week of normal modes.

kopcap
12-04-2011, 07:17 PM
I am playing a warrior. Swapped TB for Indomitable, now at 222k.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=77211/indomitable-pride

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 07:50 PM
I am playing a warrior. Swapped TB for Indomitable, now at 222k.

Indomitable?

Bodasafa
12-07-2011, 03:45 PM
So I picked up Indomitable, still able to hold CTC cap, plus the equip on that thing is better than I thought.

gom
01-02-2012, 06:04 AM
Has anyone tried out a full stamina setup? (as a warrior tank) I'm eager to test it out as soon as I get a second stamina trinket. It seems stupid to give up a 100% chance to reduce melee damage by at least 30% but on certain encounters in this tier I think it could be really good. I think on normal mode it doesn't really matter at all. The only thing which is dangerous for me atm is the Impale+Elementium Bolt Combo on the last platform madness of deathwing. On Heroic mode however lets see;

ah keep in mind this is 10man
H:Morchok: This is the only encounter we did so far. So his hits are decent but the dangerous thing is the stomp. Even a blocked hit and a stomp combo can be dangerous. I traded my ctc for a stamina trinket and for me it felt saver so I would definitively do this in a full stamina setup.

H: Warlord: I'm not sure on this one. Since your tanking 2 mobs for quite some time a ctc setup is probably better. on the other hand the thing what really kills you is the psychic drain

H: yorsahj: Since your doing this with 1 tank in 10man the magic damage from the void bolt is insane therefore stamina setup

H:Hagara: the big thing here is obviously focused assault. you can't outrange it on heroic mode according to worldoflogs you can't block/avoid it either furthermore you take about 15-30 normal hits over the entire duration of the fight. So I would do this in a stamina setup too.

H:ultraxion: I think it doesnt really matter here not too interesting damage wise. I think its also one of the easier fights in heroic as soon as you have the gear.

H: Blackhorn: CTC is probably the better choice here although the dragon has a really nasty burst magic breath in P2. Blackhorn hits also like a truck towards the end but overall you don't have that much spikes.

H: Spine: It depends on what your doing but because of the mechanic in it with the hp reduce stacking debuff I would also lean towards stamina setup

H: Madness as I said this is the only encounter where it gets dangerous for me because of the impale+bolt combo. I can only survive this with both cds last stand and shield wall also in P2 the fire damage from blistering heat is insane a stamina setup will come in handy there too.

Idk I think its worth a try for sure. Even fully gemmed for stamina + trinkets + souldrinker I would still be at 91% total avoidance. And you could easily shift in two mastery trinkets (spidersilk+fire of deep) whenever you need and your almost at 100%.

klausi
01-02-2012, 09:16 AM
We (tanks) gear for worst case and an unblocked hit right after a stomp on morchok might crush you compared to a 10k hitpoints buffer when you don't need it. Or think of an unblocked hit with some angered stacks on bubble boy or blackhorn at low % .. ouch!

In full non heroic gear you can reach ctc with two stamina trinkets as a warrior but i'd prefer using mirror/new vp trinket + stamina gemming over a second stamina trinket.

http://chardev.org/?profile=292501 vs. http://chardev.org/?profile=303717

On heroic modes:
Morchok - stamina after ctc
Warlord - i need mirror for drain
Yor'sahj - i desperatley need mirror on this fight with all magical damage flying around
Hagara - i use mirror for the lightning phase but it only helps and isn't THAT crucial. We taunt on Assault, i can't reliably survive it without shield wall - adding another 10-20k won't make or break anything. I'm nowwhere in the risk of dying outside of assault, it's my raidmembers with stacks from icelance + her frostbolt.
Ultraxion - depending on our lineup i either go full stamina (shieldblock uptime = 100%) without ctc or full dps (26 exp, strength stuff, crit, etc)
Blackhorn - can't soak stuff without a mirror..
Spine - haven't done it yet on heroic
Madness - see spine

So going two stamina trinkets is out of question for 3/6 heroic bosses because i need the additional anti magic cooldown from mirror -> use different gear but that's easier said than done for 10m.

mistersix
01-02-2012, 03:43 PM
Now that people generally have several pieces of new gear and a half dozen or so epic gems to play with what's the general rule of thumb we're starting to see emerge? Early on I was assuming a mix of:

Fractured lightstones, puissant elven peridots, fine lava corals, and solid deepholm iolites (and fractured chimera's eyes or solid chimera eyes)

but I'm seeing regal elven peridots and defender's shadow spinels popping up a fair bit as well (and flashing chimera's eyes)

Tengenstein
01-02-2012, 04:20 PM
Well once you've got FULL CTC, you're swapping Stam in place of mastery. If you've got a red socket bonus, or are close enough to the cap that you don't want to lose a full 40 mastery, defender's Shadow spinels make sence, regal elven peridot's not so much

gom
01-03-2012, 04:34 PM
We (tanks) gear for worst case

exactly!



an unblocked hit right after a stomp on morchok might crush you compared to a 10k hitpoints buffer when you don't need it. Or think of an unblocked hit with some angered stacks on bubble boy or blackhorn at low % .. ouch!

In full non heroic gear you can reach ctc with two stamina trinkets as a warrior but i'd prefer using mirror/new vp trinket + stamina gemming over a second stamina trinket.

http://chardev.org/?profile=292501 vs. http://chardev.org/?profile=303717
(http://chardev.org/?profile=303717)

I analysed a bit of wol and played around a bit with char dev. So I took your first profile and put an epic stamina gem in every slot to see the difference. An it was a laughable 10k. I wouldn't give up ctc for 10k.

Then I took my current gear and did the same.

This profile is my current gear: http://chardev.org/?profile=305072
Notes: atm I cannot afford epic gems and therefore I have to use 2 non-stamina trinkets. I could reach it with 1 stamina trinket and the elixir combo but I prefer the cauldron :). At least I could squeeze in 4 Stamina Gems. Anyways the result is CTC and 209933 HP

Then I replaced every gem with a stamina gem and replaced the current trinkets with stamina trinkets which i have available. This is the profile http://chardev.org/?profile=305090
(http://chardev.org/?profile=305090)
The result is 90.3% CTC and 249427 HP.

so it ends up being roughly a 40k Hp diffrence. Thats almost 20% more then in the other setup its like a perma Rallying Cry

Lets run these setups in a worst case scenario on heroic morchok:

Stomp -> Hit -> Hit in the Sta. setup and Stomp -> Block -> Block in the CTC setup.

according to WOL I take about 40k Hits on average and the stomp is about 105k

Stamina Setup: 249k-105 -40k -40k = 64k (25%)
CTC Setup: 210 -105- 28 - 28 = 49 (23%)

So the stamina setup has a slightly better outcome on top of that you would also trigger pride after the first hit but since its a worst case it didn't proc ;). So if your gear isn't top notch the stamina setup might be at least a viable approach and as soon as your gear progresses and ctc is easier to obtain stamina after ctc is the way to go.


On heroic modes:

Warlord - i need mirror for drain
Yor'sahj - i desperatley need mirror on this fight with all magical damage flying around



I agree the TB trinket is very good in this fights. Actually some tanks use sindragosa's flawless fang on these encounters and had great success.

Bigbad
01-04-2012, 01:50 AM
Gom i dont know if you're doing 10mans or normal modes, but Morchok25 HC does 120k stomps and normal blocks hit me for 100k (for the 10 secs after the stomp). A normal hit would then hit me 144k. I really don't see the use of going below CTC cap on morchok hc. Being somewhere at 225k raidbuffed atm near 250k with the shammy buff I'm perfectly fine healthwise to survive 120+100k damage any additional stamina will just give the healers a bigger buffer.

swelt
01-04-2012, 04:20 AM
Couple of thoughts:
- Is it helpful to keep going on about Morchok stomps when it seems that at least a minor cooldown rotation is expected in 25 man. I'd like to see a more balanced justification for maintaining full CTC than just this one boss (although I don't doubt there is one)
- Gems are just one factor. Elixir/Flask choice, Trinket Choice, Weapon Choice and even Food choice are other tunables. This isn't a binary thing, it's a sliding scale and, with the exception of gems, one that can be tuned encounter-by-encounter.

gom
01-04-2012, 06:04 AM
Gom i dont know if you're doing 10mans or normal modes

so you are basically saying you didn't read the post from me or klausi. its 10man hc.



but Morchok25 HC does 120k stomps and normal blocks hit me for 100k (for the 10 secs after the stomp). A normal hit would then hit me 144k. I really don't see the use of going below CTC cap on morchok hc. Being somewhere at 225k raidbuffed atm near 250k with the shammy buff I'm perfectly fine healthwise to survive 120+100k damage

good for you to have 225k hp while ctc and a shaman healer. But like I said If I want to have ctc my health is 210k raidbuffed. And its not like im 378 average ilvl. its 395. I already gave up ctc on our first kill in favor of a stamina trinket because 210k didn't felt "good" enough for these stomp bursts. So even if you have 99% CTC your worst case scenario is the same as if you had 90% CTC. But you are in a better position with 90% CTC and 40k hp more in a worst scenario. Im not trying to convince you, bigbad or anyone else to regem stamina I mean you have CTC and 250k hp in your raid thats perfectly fine but for those who have a hard time to get CTC because of their gear the stamina setup might be a good alternative.


any additional stamina will just give the healers a bigger buffer.

and that is bad because...? :confused:

klausi
01-04-2012, 06:08 AM
@gom
Well you're basically missing half the neat mastery pieces (belt, feet, 2xfinger, shield, shoulders) and that's why you're rather low on the ctc side. And there's a flaw in your math: in your worst case scenario there's additional 24k heal required to bring you back up, will they be capable of achieving this (eg via regular overheal on ctc tank) without ranking up (more mana costs) and in time for the next stomp?

Your conclusion is okay.. i guess. At least it was for t11 when you faced Halfus for the very first time on heroic. But if you already have enough hitpoints to survive a nasty burst i wouldn't worry to much about the leeway for your healers but about the overall damage intake to decrease their burden. If you kill a boss for weeks with 220k hitpoints and there are several "O shit!" moments when you barely make it you'll happily facing him again with 240k after your gear progressed, but is that really needed? Your healer throughput got better, boss is dying faster and you only stopped dropping to <10% but instead falling below 20% on his nuke of doom.

@swelt
A minor cooldown rotation is a tough task with ~ 15 stomps over 6 minutes if you're a warrior. Shieldblock won't help, unless you're dwarf there's nothing to hit outside of shieldwall to reduce the incoming damage. Having a neat hp pool to survive the burst and a disc priest shielding you on the casts comes handy.

Is elixir vs flask really a choice, either you're ctc capped or not and regulary you'll built your gear around either of it: adding 225 mastery via 5-6 gems if you want the flask versus adding 5-6 stamina gems if you're an elixir guy.

swelt
01-04-2012, 07:36 AM
Shield block helps mitigate the big hits following the stomp (and will absolutely ensure you had full CTC if you were opting to dip below passive cap), giving you shield wall and last stand+regen (or perhaps rallying cry, given the other encounter mechanics) as your own cooldowns before you hit external CDs. My point was that you could handle that by being passively CTC capped and knowing that you'll never take a stomp->unblocked hit, or you could handle it with cooldowns and stack more stamina in the shape of 2 trinkets+. If we are talking about gemming strategy, we should be looking beyond 1 mechanic in 1 encounter.

The choice for elixir vs flask is probably one you make in advance, sure. But it's a cheaper/easier thing to decide that for a given fight that you want to drop below CTC if you have tuned around using elixirs than it would be to resocket your gear. Personally, I tune my gear around cauldrons and feasts because that's good enough for me.

gom
01-04-2012, 09:00 AM
@klausi do you mean additional 40k or where did you get the 24k? anyway mana and heal throughput isn't a problem on this fight since you do it with 4 healers on 10m at least we do it. in general I think healers are less concerned about mana nowadays compared to the start of the expansion.


My point was that you could handle that by being passively CTC capped and knowing that you'll never take a stomp->unblocked hit, or you could handle it with cooldowns and stack more stamina in the shape of 2 trinkets+. If we are talking about gemming strategy, we should be looking beyond 1 mechanic in 1 encounter.


true. but at least the next 3 bosses are very similar in tank damage. they all have a certain burst mechanic: psychic drain, high void bolt stacks and focused assault. so you could handle them in a similar way as you suggested

Bigbad
01-04-2012, 10:50 AM
so you are basically saying you didn't read the post from me or klausi. its 10man hc.

good for you to have 225k hp while ctc and a shaman healer. But like I said If I want to have ctc my health is 210k raidbuffed. And its not like im 378 average ilvl. its 395. I already gave up ctc on our first kill in favor of a stamina trinket because 210k didn't felt "good" enough for these stomp bursts. So even if you have 99% CTC your worst case scenario is the same as if you had 90% CTC. But you are in a better position with 90% CTC and 40k hp more in a worst scenario. Im not trying to convince you, bigbad or anyone else to regem stamina I mean you have CTC and 250k hp in your raid thats perfectly fine but for those who have a hard time to get CTC because of their gear the stamina setup might be a good alternative.

and that is bad because...? :confused:

No need to be that hostile. I read your post doesn't mention 10man at least on this page, your numbers just seemed off from what I'm used to.

My gear isn't that amazing 394 itemlevel same as your chardev profile, still I'm unhittable with 225k hp. I don't use souldrinker so that's about 5k hp compared to hc mandible. The other 10k difference seems to be epic gems and your preference into avoidance instead of mastery which seems odd if you want to push more stamina. Most notably your shoulders, belt, rep ring. This is me http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/wildhammer/bigbadorugly/advanced

More stamina is never bad but its not worth breaking CTC cap for. I can't imagine an unblocked hit on zon'ozz on high stacks being very healthy. Yorsahj its more magical damage and Hagara its focussed assault so stacking stamina could be more viable, still doubtful its optimal to do so.

gom
01-04-2012, 01:25 PM
No need to be that hostile. I read your post doesn't mention 10man at least on this page, your numbers just seemed off from what I'm used to.

If I appear hostile to you then I apologize but I'm not. We're having a discussion and therefore I expect others to read the thread before they try to make point not just the last page. I think thats called "showing respect" I do it too anything other then that is ignorance and I don't like ignorance.



My gear isn't that amazing 394 itemlevel same as your chardev profile, still I'm unhittable with 225k hp. I don't use souldrinker so that's about 5k hp compared to hc mandible. The other 10k difference seems to be epic gems and your preference into avoidance instead of mastery which seems odd if you want to push more stamina. Most notably your shoulders, belt, rep ring. This is me http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/wildhammer/bigbadorugly/advanced



Its not that I prefer these Items but the gods of loot haven't exactly graced me with mastery items in fact the only item I got out of DS is the waist because the other tank has the vp waist, a resolve trinket and 1 token because our shaman passed for me. So I won zero rolls so far in this 5 weeks. Believe me I would love one of those two mastery rings or a brackenshell or in general more set pieces. the current state of my gear is the reason why I consider this stamina approach that's why I'm interested to hear feedback from ppl who actually tried it out.

rangoon
01-16-2012, 12:10 PM
will just throw in my opinion for all of the dragon soul 25h fights

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/korgath/Rangoon/advanced

morchok - stam
zonozz - stam
yosahj - stam
hagara - lolwarrior
ultraxion - dps setup (threat/exp reforged + dps trinkets)
gunship - ctc cap (swap 1 stam trinket for fire of the deep)
spine - stam
madness - stam

so as far as i'm concerned - stam is the go to stat for warriors this tier, i'm not even far off of being ctc capped with double stam trinkets

kopcap
01-16-2012, 04:07 PM
Lets run these setups in a worst case scenario on heroic morchok:

Stomp -> Hit -> Hit in the Sta. setup and Stomp -> Block -> Block in the CTC setup.

according to WOL I take about 40k Hits on average and the stomp is about 105k

Stamina Setup: 249k-105 -40k -40k = 64k (25%)
CTC Setup: 210 -105- 28 - 28 = 49 (23%)

So the stamina setup has a slightly better outcome on top of that you would also trigger pride after the first hit but since its a worst case it didn't proc ;). So if your gear isn't top notch the stamina setup might be at least a viable approach and as soon as your gear progresses and ctc is easier to obtain stamina after ctc is the way to go.LOL :) No, your math is wrong and meaningless. Start with the fact that "average" and "unblocked" are slightly different things.