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Thad
12-02-2011, 04:41 PM
so someone pointed out to me that the BiS weapon for tanks is souldrinker. is this true or is there a better weapon?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=77193

Fetzie
12-02-2011, 04:57 PM
To the best of my knowledge the only other 1h weapon with strength in Dragon Soul is this one (http://www.wowhead.com/item=77212), and technically that is a DPS weapon (what with it having crit rating and a 10 str socket bonus). Which makes the Souldrinker the BiS weapon because there is no other tanking weapon in the instance :)

Dreadski
12-02-2011, 06:28 PM
As long as you're block capped, yup. Had to throw that caveat in there.

Thad
12-02-2011, 06:55 PM
what's the block cap exactly?

Fetzie
12-02-2011, 07:06 PM
Block Cap is when your Dodge, Parry, Block and Miss chances add up to 102.4%

See the guide linked in my signature for a more in-depth explanation (parts 8-10 if my memory does not fail me at 3:06 am :) )

Thad
12-02-2011, 08:02 PM
ah ok

edit: wait what is miss chance? as far as i can see there is no way to check it in game.

Vexryn
12-03-2011, 12:14 AM
ah ok

edit: wait what is miss chance? as far as i can see there is no way to check it in game.

It's a flat 5%.

So basically, you can think of it as aiming for 97.4% for your parry + dodge + block.

Vexryn
12-03-2011, 12:15 AM
As long as you're block capped, yup. Had to throw that caveat in there.

Yes, except it should be manageable to block cap without using dps weapons. :)

klausi
12-03-2011, 07:20 AM
Manageable? Yes... but both Mandible of Beth'tilac and Hand of Morchok offer a good chunk of mastery + avoidance that you can skip elsewhere. That's easily three times a 50-mastery gem + socket -> a ~ 300 stamina bump before buffs.

For now it looks like Souldrinker is a dps weapon as well, our frost Dk already stated that he's after two of it. So i've to guess that the 40 dps increase on top of the procc outweights a 28 strength, 139 crit rating and 119 mastery rating loss for them.

Outbackjack
12-03-2011, 07:51 AM
Our Fury Warrior is gunning for a pair of them too. He said he's gonna be popping Rallying Cry on cooldown to take advantage of the proc. If his attendance were better I'd be tempted to let him get a pair of them first and I'd dick around with Hand of Morchokk for tanking.

Dreadski
12-03-2011, 08:58 PM
Yes, except it should be manageable to block cap without using dps weapons. :)

Eh?

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 01:04 AM
Dread I love how you still have that post in your sig.

Priceless. Funny it still stands (except for the stacking stam part).

Dreadski
12-04-2011, 01:58 PM
Yeah, I've been super lazy. The zetbit is out of date because I changed servers, factions and names. Remember how many threads used to pop up daily about that sh*t? Was unreal. Good times.

Bodasafa
12-04-2011, 05:00 PM
Yeah, I've been super lazy. The zetbit is out of date because I changed servers, factions and names. Remember how many threads used to pop up daily about that sh*t? Was unreal. Good times.

Yeah back then I was unemployed so I could spend all day on tankspot forums, now I only occasionally stop by with work and raiding.

But good times!

klausi
12-04-2011, 07:57 PM
He said he's gonna be popping Rallying Cry on cooldown to take advantage of the proc.
That gave me a good laugh, it's the only reason (considering that they need two twohanders to compete and offer lowest dps according to the newest sims) you can bring a dps'ing warrior into a raid instead of a paladin, dk*, enhancer, feral** or a rogue: non of them offer a raiding cooldown..

* haven't seen an unholy dk in ages :(
** tranq cooldown is really long

I just played around with the numbers: 260.000 hitpoints raidbuffed doesn't luck to exaggerated, with a resto shaman present it should be possible on 10m, too.


Heroic souldrinker drains 1.7% of your maximim hitpoints, translating it into 3.4% heal.

260000*0.034=8.840
What's about healing increasing talents? Paladin and warrior got both +6%, that's 9.370 hitpoints healed.
What's about damage increasing talents? Curse of Elements or Sunder Armor + Enrage?

An almost 10k heal every other second doesn't look to shaby to me. But what's about the PPM? Remember that mending enchant we used at the start of the expansion? It healed for ~ 1.000 and procced about four times a minute, way more on aoe fights (rend ticking on multiple mobs helped a lot). 40k not-smart heal per minute looks underwhelming (666 hps), i really hope the procc chance is considerable higher.

Rennadrel
12-04-2011, 08:00 PM
To the best of my knowledge the only other 1h weapon with strength in Dragon Soul is this one (http://www.wowhead.com/item=77212), and technically that is a DPS weapon (what with it having crit rating and a 10 str socket bonus). Which makes the Souldrinker the BiS weapon because there is no other tanking weapon in the instance :)

Funnily enough, Hand of Morchok is only good for SMF Warriors too, it's pretty terribad for a Frost DW DK due to the crit.

Fetzie
12-04-2011, 08:01 PM
Paladins get 6% more casted and received healing, my stock 19k Scales heal actually heals me for about 22k. Souldrinker appears to have a 15% proc chance and no internal cooldown.

klausi
12-06-2011, 05:08 PM
Got one on an alt paladin (about 215k hitspoints raidbuffed):

3568*1.206*2=7564 -> heal is modified from talents (+6% healing taken) as mentioned above from Fetzie
[21:38:46.744] Klausi Drain Life Alysrazor 3568
[21:38:47.169] Klausi Drain Life Klausi +7564

3464*1.2=4157 -> damage (and thus healed amount) is further modified from abilites (like wings)
[20:56:11.239] Klausi Drain Life Beth'tilac 3464
[20:56:11.666] Klausi Drain Life Klausi +7343
[20:56:13.024] Klausi gains Avenging Wrath from Klausi
[20:56:13.024] Klausi casts Avenging Wrath
[20:56:21.284] Klausi Drain Life Beth'tilac 4157
[20:56:21.696] Klausi Drain Life Klausi +8812
[20:56:33.041] Klausi's Avenging Wrath fades from Klausi

... and things like Imprinted on birds from Alysrazor:
[21:40:38.956] Klausi Drain Life Voracious Hatchling 35281
[21:40:39.377] Klausi Drain Life Klausi +57319 (O: 17476)

- neither damage nor heal can't crit or miss
- don't scale from attackpower (vengeance)
- if i'm not mistaken here Curse of Elements and other external sources of increased damage won't help (exceptions: your own abilites, skills & talents. And (de)buffs affecting you personally)

Total healing done on fights like:
Shannox hc: 230k over 3.5 minutes (1.000 hps)
Alysrazor hc: 920k over 7.5 minutes (2.000 hps)
Rhyolith hc: 400k over 5 minutes (1.333 hps)
Staghelm hc: 400k over 8 minutes, my 2 piece t13 absorbed 200k over the same time (833 hps)
Ragnaros nhc: 400k over 6 minutes (1.100 hps)
Baleroc hc: 2.6 million over 5.5 minutes [the boss i was most interested in: procc acounted for 20% of my total damage done, that increased stamina pool works as well for sure :D] (7.900 hps)
[22:18:10.432] Klausi Drain Life Baleroc 26603
[22:18:10.813] Klausi Drain Life Klausi +56398

Procc itself was about 5% of my total damage done on every fight except for Baleroc (for obvious reasons), it's a pretty good one after all (worth: combined deep wounds + 3-4 times the value of blood craze).

Ps: please notice that those hps numbers in brackets don't account for overhealing, on most fights i had about 25-40% overhealing with the procc depending on the difficulty of the fight and the pressure from aoe healing! And on Alysrazor it was way higher, about 75%.

Takethecake
12-08-2011, 01:57 PM
I was dreading that this weapon would be extremely underwhelming. From Klausi's data it looks like it could be somewhat useful after all, but not to the point where it would be mandatory though.

I'll probably keep my heroic mandible around for good measure though.

kopcap
12-08-2011, 02:09 PM
instead of a feralFeral 4p heals for about 2.0 - 2.5 mil in 25 man.

The sword is over 1k hps on a single tank fight.

Reev
12-08-2011, 02:18 PM
It's a flat 5%.

So basically, you can think of it as aiming for 97.4% for your parry + dodge + block.

Unless you're a night elf. Then it's 7%.

Muffin Man
12-08-2011, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I've been super lazy. The zetbit is out of date because I changed servers, factions and names. Remember how many threads used to pop up daily about that sh*t? Was unreal. Good times.

I remember countless halp: armory threads where I told people:
"No, you don't need expertise, your dps/threat sucks because you only Shield Slammed 12 times in a 3 minute fight."

Anyways, back on topic:
For what it's worth, raid finder has this item marked as a tanking item (wanted to give this a shot with SMF, but nope tank had role bonus).

Edit: Who am I kidding, I wanted this to tank heroics with.

gom
12-08-2011, 09:30 PM
For now it looks like Souldrinker is a dps weapon as well, our frost Dk already stated that he's after two of it. So i've to guess that the 40 dps increase on top of the procc outweights a 28 strength, 139 crit rating and 119 mastery rating loss for them.

I made a comparison between Mandiblade HC and Souldrinker in the Simcraft it turned out that Souldrinker is a ~800 dps gain in my gear (prot warrior).

Takethecake
12-09-2011, 02:34 PM
I don't think the question is if it will do more damage for tanking. Higher str and higher weapon dps/damage make that a given. For me the question is, is the loss of survival stats on mandible worth the gain of the self heal. I don't think their will ever be a concrete answer to that question though because it involves so many factors.

Personally I'll probably end up comparing the souldrinker heal to a loss of ~262 avoidance and see which numbers I like better. ~194 avoidance from dodge/str/reforged mastery and 68 mastery that frees up mastery on other gear to be reforged. But more than likely I'll pick up the souldrinker and use it. I'll be doing my math on that later though cause I just finished finals and my brain hurts.

Bigbad
12-09-2011, 04:46 PM
One interesting option from gearing I've seen (think it was kopcap) is going max mastery and converting all excess CTC past 102,4% into stamina with gems. So you could also give the loss of ~262 avoidance a stamina equivalent. Still not quite sure where to go with gear atm but it's at least one of the options to keep in mind.

I can see the weapon being great on ultraxion where the extra dps/heal is nice and you already got 100% shieldblock uptime. Other bosses the hc beth sword might be optimal.

Tengenstein
12-09-2011, 05:01 PM
Well once you've got full CTC increase in parry and dodge are marginal and due to your massive passive damage reduction Stamina's EH scaling becomes much much nicer. From a healer point of view you now have a huge buffer and a steady damage income.

Takethecake
12-09-2011, 08:25 PM
One interesting option from gearing I've seen (think it was kopcap) is going max mastery and converting all excess CTC past 102,4% into stamina with gems. So you could also give the loss of ~262 avoidance a stamina equivalent. Still not quite sure where to go with gear atm but it's at least one of the options to keep in mind.

I can see the weapon being great on ultraxion where the extra dps/heal is nice and you already got 100% shieldblock uptime. Other bosses the hc beth sword might be optimal.

True, I am looking forward to rocking the Indomitable Pride trinket and stam gems. Sick of my paladin OT having the HP lead.

Garbid
12-20-2011, 07:18 AM
I thought to point out to those who wanna give these to their DK's and SMF warriors, "1 is enough!". Having 1 in mainhand is a nice dps boost for them, getting another in off-hand is only 50% of it's dps value (assuming those procs get the same dmg penalty as normal offhands do) so it's a waste giving it as offhand to DK's and SMF warriors if your tank still needs it!

This I believe, but have yet to see numbers to prove it though. Would be nice to see someone test it out by putting it in your off-hand for a fight and log it for us.

A DK in our guild was also telling me about a thread on EJ (iirc, could be elsewhere) where they proved the proc to be a 6-700 dps increase as Mainhand. If it does 800+ dps for a tank, it's not a bad idea to increase the raids overall dmg to just hand it over to your tanks :D

I've passed on two already though (1 for pala tank and other for a DK) as I'd go below CTC cap, I'm still using heroic mandible. Now I'm seriously thinking of taking next one, even though we still have 1 DK drooling over it.

Tengenstein
12-20-2011, 08:48 AM
Your wrong on the 1 is enough thing. for a start BOTH DW strength classes have passive abilitiels/talents that decrease the OH damage penalty but more importantly the damage reduction for OH strikes does not apply to the proc from souldrinker, as the proc chance is based on weapon hits, and the damage is based of HP. it doesn't matter that the OH weapon skills suffer a damage penalty, all that matters is that an OH attack connects. For a frost DK this means that an OH SOuldrinker isn't as much of a boost as a MH souldrinker since Plague strike doesn't utilise the OH, however DKs generally spend very small amounts of their time PSing, most of there time is spent OBing, FSing and HBing, and OB and FS have the same chance to Proc a MH souldrinker as an OH souldrinker. SMF fury is not gonn have quite the same parity as almost 50% of a warriors GCDs are spent Bloodthirsting, which doesn't include an OH hit so won't proc the OH, neither will HS or execute for the same reasons. so its only OH swings, Slams, and Raging Blows which can proc an OH souldrinker. So yeah for Frost DKs it's still pretty damn good as far as OHs go.

Dreadski
12-21-2011, 10:32 AM
Picked up the 390 raid finder version last night. This. Thing. Procs. Like. Crazy. I love it.