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Kahmal
11-30-2011, 04:13 PM
Ok seriously, after going through most of DR without breaking a sweat, I'm growing very tired of the ever so present taunt the boss at 3 stacks roll as a tank. What once one most exciting role in a raid is often reduced to nothing but a mere buffer to allow the other tank to get his debuff is growing very tiresome, and seeing it present on both Morchok and Ultraxion just kind of has me a bit fed up.

This mechanic as I recall didn't become popular until WoTLK I believe. At least back in Burning Crusade tank swaps required the current off-tank to surpass the other tank in threat which would give one options on how they wanna gear and test how well they can generate threat, since most bosses were untauntable. I remember Hydross where the swap was based on who was wearing the proper resistance gear for the current phase and a bad swap would completely wipe the raid.

Now the main reason I complain about this is because we seasoned raiders are having issues seeing recycled mechanics that have made raiding a bit more bland, but from my recollection fights where the its not the off-tanks job to just simple be a taunt bot are among the most involved encounters. H Lady Deathwhisper, Putrecide, Valithria, Thorim, every final boss, the list goes on.

Now some of the above still do feature tank swaps but are in done in more clever ways, LDW not only has a bunch of adds to deal with, but the boss is untauntable and it has to be done the old school way. Putrecides tank swap isn't until phase 3 and the other 2 phase the Off-tank is an abomination! Even on Sindragosa though there is a tank swap it is done in a far more clever way then simply hitting taunt before the current tank gets one shot.

At the end of the day if there is something that the off-tank has to do besides taunt the main boss it usually means the encounter has more enrichment. I'm not sure if Blizz is running out of idea, being lazy or simply not wanting encounters to put too much weight on a tank.

If they are to keep up with these tank swap debuffs, I mean at least have some fun with it. Its always, "takes additional shadow damage" "reduces armor by 80%" "will one shot you if you get too much"
Why not also make it increase damage and make the tanks DPS detrimental to the encounter, or make it transform you into some hostile creature that has to be dealt with by the raid. Who knows, maybe I've just been tanking for too long.

Tengenstein
11-30-2011, 08:05 PM
What bosses in WotLK that required a taunt swap where taunt immune? Gluth, Rasuvious, Horsemen, Archavon, Razorscale, Hodir, Thorim, Gormok, Deathwhisper, Suarfang. Festergut, Putricide, Sindagosa and LK where all tauntable, the only untauntable Bboss i can recall was HC LDW. I think you're being a bit rose tinted in your recolletion of wrath tank swaps, or got it confused with TBC content (I really can't recall taunt swapping on Valithria).

That said yes its a boring ass mechanic. It was a boring ass mechanic in wrath, it's still a boring ass mechanic. I think the problem is that Blizzard sees that the tank population is low, and thinks that most people don't want to try tanking becuase tanking is percieved as being hard, so won't risk making things complicated as it risks putting people off tanking.

Dreadski
11-30-2011, 09:06 PM
The tank swaps in all of WOTLK were one thing...boring. Every one of those fights made one feel like a drooling idiot if the raid wiped due to a tank problem (and until hardmodes, any raider screwing up). Stand here, now run here. Taunt at this time, taunt at this many stacks, pop shield wall, next round guardian spirit, etc.

Agreed with Tengenstein, there wasn't any threat switches in WOTLK that were taunt-immune, unless one of you spammed taunt and made it immune.

Kahmal
11-30-2011, 09:13 PM
What bosses in WotLK that required a taunt swap where taunt immune? Gluth, Rasuvious, Horsemen, Archavon, Razorscale, Hodir, Thorim, Gormok, Deathwhisper, Suarfang. Festergut, Putricide, Sindagosa and LK where all tauntable, the only untauntable Bboss i can recall was HC LDW. I think you're being a bit rose tinted in your recolletion of wrath tank swaps, or got it confused with TBC content (I really can't recall taunt swapping on Valithria).



I typoed. I said bosses were taunt immune in WoTLK instead of TBC, hence my Hydross reference, editing now ty. Also my reference to Valithria and the others I stated with her points out that encounters that aren't simple off-tank stand 2 feet from main tank and taunt boss and tank for 20 seconds are usually more intriguing.

Reev
11-30-2011, 09:16 PM
The tank swaps in all of WOTLK were one thing...boring. Every one of those fights made one feel like a drooling idiot if the raid wiped due to a tank problem (and until hardmodes, any raider screwing up). Stand here, now run here. Taunt at this time, taunt at this many stacks, pop shield wall, next round guardian spirit, etc.

Agreed with Tengenstein, there wasn't any threat switches in WOTLK that were taunt-immune, unless one of you spammed taunt and made it immune.

Marrowgar was briefly taunt immune with an aggro reset, which was kind of cool.

And yes, Hydross is one of the best tanking fights ever.

Tengenstein
11-30-2011, 09:23 PM
Ah I really liked Marrowgar when he used to do that, and it annoyed the hell out of me when pugs 6 months later would taunt off me after each bone storm "why?! he doesn't reset aggro anymore and taunting didn't used to help either!"

as to things going Taunt immune, Dreador said something about drooling idiots.

Theotherone
12-01-2011, 07:34 AM
We did Ultraoxin last night and since our OT is shipping out for pilot training, I go back and forth between tanking and healing (we have priest that will go Shadow on one tank fights while I go Holy) any way I like the taunt mechanic on that fight it's kind of a fun variation on 4 stacks and taunt.

Kahmal
12-01-2011, 09:59 AM
We did Ultraoxin last night and since our OT is shipping out for pilot training, I go back and forth between tanking and healing (we have priest that will go Shadow on one tank fights while I go Holy) any way I like the taunt mechanic on that fight it's kind of a fun variation on 4 stacks and taunt.

maybe i'm not fully comprehending the mechanics of that encounter because it seemed like all I was doing was standing 3 feet away from the main tank and pressing taunt whenever he got a debuff on him. And then clicking a button to prevent myself from getting one shot....fun

Theotherone
12-01-2011, 10:34 AM
maybe i'm not fully comprehending the mechanics of that encounter because it seemed like all I was doing was standing 3 feet away from the main tank and pressing taunt whenever he got a debuff on him. And then clicking a button to prevent myself from getting one shot....fun

What I liked about it is have to time the Heroic Will to make sure you hit the real world to prevent the one shot. You're only in the real world a second or two and the Fading Light can last 5- 10 seconds, then you come back to an Hour of Twilight. I liked it, it's an updated Patchwerk dps check.

Kahmal
12-03-2011, 02:58 AM
What I liked about it is have to time the Heroic Will to make sure you hit the real world to prevent the one shot. You're only in the real world a second or two and the Fading Light can last 5- 10 seconds, then you come back to an Hour of Twilight. I liked it, it's an updated Patchwerk dps check.

I find that fight extrememly boring, maybe fun for healers. Like I said encounters where the tank isn't just there for taunting always makes the encounter more interesting, more movement, etc.

klausi
12-03-2011, 07:26 AM
I find that fight extrememly boring, maybe fun for healers.
I've to agree, watch your poweraura or focus frame debuffs for searing light, taunt and hit the "oh shit" button once in a while without moving once after engaging is rather boring. Good thing about that fight? You can hit shieldblock every 15 (less magical damage) to 20 seconds and have a 100% uptime on heavy repercussion'd shield blocks. Combined with the new vengeance + vigilance you'll put out some decent numbers.

Baleroc was also an dps check but healers had to handle their stacks and dps had to handle crystals (and on heroic: debuff) to make it work. Now it's just hitting that large training dummy for 6 minutes straight, dealing 280k rdps.

Kahmal
12-03-2011, 11:59 AM
Every raid has one of those stand still DPS encounters, it appeases the DPS and lets them know where they stand. But I just found the other 3 bosses prior to that so darn simple that i was expecting something way more epic for "Deathwings great creation"

I mean seriously why not just remove that stupid mechanic increase a bosses health slightly and let the off-tank just DPS, I could at least get more satisfaction watching numbers fly around.

I always thought interrupts as an encounter mechanic where dumb also, it was an issue in WoTLK because your 10 man might not have enough people to interrupt, so they gave one to Paladins and Feral Druids knowing full and well this would cause problems in PvP, they were better off just taking out things that had to be interrupted since its not something you should mess up anyway. Truth is though people do. They interrupt too early, get confused on the cast, forgets its there turn etc. Wiping because your tank didn't taunt usually means ur tank d/c'd or fell asleep.

feralminded
12-05-2011, 09:13 AM
Yeah the ultraxion tank swap is pretty stupid. That said, at least on 25 man, the healing was really fun ... specially for my undergeared priest who hasn't had a drop since BWD when I put him on the shelf. Our DPS was in the low 500k range which meant the 6 healers had to keep the raid alive until 5:50 for the kill ... and we did it without a single death or even a timeloop pop. We may just 5 heal it since DPS is slacking and an extra 30-35k would put us very close to the 5 minute kill mark.

Libellus
12-06-2011, 09:40 AM
What I liked about it is have to time the Heroic Will to make sure you hit the real world to prevent the one shot. You're only in the real world a second or two and the Fading Light can last 5- 10 seconds, then you come back to an Hour of Twilight. I liked it, it's an updated Patchwerk dps check.

Agree. Visually it is a very grand encounter which helps a lot, but I really enjoyed the mechanics of it. Ok the tanks don't have to do much beyond managing their cooldowns and swapping at the right times, but it was still fun.

Probably more enjoyable for the DPS, where the challenge will be getting the timing of real world right, so the impact on dps is minimal.

Nifron
12-06-2011, 09:50 AM
if they made tank swapping so bad it took 5 tanks it would be funny

woodyman
12-06-2011, 10:05 AM
did anyone else really enjoy tanking riplimb as warrior tank....Heroic leaps charges etc etc, was fun zipping about the place

feralminded
12-06-2011, 10:13 AM
Yeah Riplimb was a very fun challenge ... specially early on heroic before the nerfs.

Libellus
12-06-2011, 10:26 AM
I didn't find riplimb that interesting or particularly fun. Not hard, just.....not interesting. But then moving your character around is inherently interesting anyway.

Moving around on heroic Alysrazor, now that I did find fun and interesting.

Outbackjack
12-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Riplimb tanking and Alysrazor tanking were both loads of fun after I got the knack for them. There's something about those movement fights that got me excited to do them that most other movement boss fights (Illidari Council comes to mind, that was just annoying) could not.

Dreadski
12-06-2011, 10:59 AM
Illidari Council, now that you bring it up...holy cow what a memory. Move left, move right. OMGSPELLREFLECT. Move left. Gaaahhhhhh almost as bad as Saurfang for tanks.

Outbackjack
12-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Plus kiting the Paladin guy around with his super Consecration that he left on the floor. I didn't do the Rogue much, our Paladin tank at the time did it and he had a blast with it. Don't know why, but then again he seemed like the "easily amused" type.

Dreadski
12-06-2011, 12:11 PM
I can't recall but I think I was tanking 2 mobs in that fight, the Paladin and one other and I had to run me and the melee out of his consecration and reflect judgements or something like that. Crap. I just burped into a conference call....

Kahmal
12-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Riplimb tanking and Alysrazor tanking were both loads of fun after I got the knack for them. There's something about those movement fights that got me excited to do them that most other movement boss fights (Illidari Council comes to mind, that was just annoying) could not.

Both very innovative fights. Tank Rimplimb is very fun to me, Heroic Leaping as far as possible from the spear then Hamstringing Rimplimb, and proceeding to lol as he limps back to his master while ur stacks clear, Alysrazor is also fun. The more responsibilities the tank has the more fun the encounter is for everyone imo.

Jericho
12-06-2011, 02:53 PM
At least back in Burning Crusade tank swaps required the current off-tank to surpass the other tank in threat which would give one options on how they wanna gear and test how well they can generate threat, since most bosses were untauntable. I remember Hydross where the swap was based on who was wearing the proper resistance gear for the current phase and a bad swap would completely wipe the raid.

The problem with having to "out threat" the other tank in order to begin tanking, is that the mechanic is nigh impossible with the changes to tank threat in Cataclysm. Add the current Vengeance mechanics to an untauntable boss and you have no real way to produce the threat required to pull off a tank that is being repeatedly hit creating high Vengeance. Yes they could fix this by giving every tank a hugely strengthened version of Vigilance, but that is not going to happen.

I agree with you that these fights use an old and tired mechanic. It was fun trying to work your ass off to out threat your other 2 tanks to gain threat on Gurtogg Bloodboil. Looking back to those days there is always a huge sense of nostalgia for those encounters. Yet, back in TBC there were a good number of encounters that were just plain designed better. The largest issue that designers are encumbered with is the fact that all encounters must easily be translated from one size raid to the other. A large number of Vanilla and TBC fights tend to be a lot more interesting than current and WotLK encounters mostly because of this. Gone are the times where we had 8 tanks for 40man Four Horsemen. Gone are the times where we needed 3 tanks for fights like Fathomlord, Gurtogg, Leotheras. Gone are the encounters where we had "Mage tanks" and "Warlock tanks" as well. Encounter design is just completely handcuffed by the 10 vs 25, LFR vs Normal vs Heroic modes.

As for the current and last raid tier... I was surprised we saw even one single tank fight in either instance. They wanted Baelroc to be a two tank fight. I was actually surprised there wasn't some sort of tank debuff in the Majordomo fight that required a tank change when the form changed. So far, the only single tank fight I see in Dragon Soul is Zon'ozz on LFR/Normal. While this encounter is a tad more interesting from a tank point of view. This encounter could be boring as hell or more interesting if your raid can't bounce the ball correctly.

What we need now is for Blizzard to sh*t or get off the pot with their default raid size and makeup. We had a much better end game when there was 2 separate and different raid sizes. When we had decent encounter design with interesting tank mechanics. Back when a large number of encounters required 3 tanks during TBC. Think back to the most interesting tank encounters. As you said, Hydross, Illidari Council, Kalecgos, Gurtogg, A'kar all of these had mechanics that can simply not occurr in the paradigm because of the need to have mechanics that work for 10 and 25man.

The next question is, what would you choose to add or subtract from encounter design to make it more interesting as a tank? More multi-boss encounters such as Fathomlord, Council and Horsemen. Do we want more encounters where the tank has to fight for threat? Do we want more double tank fights where there is a "Crushing Blow" mechanic such as Gruul? Do we want more fights like Mother and Marrowgar where the only real reason the other tank(s) is there is to split damage?

Then you have encounters where the tried and true methodology of "Just add adds" mechanic was used. Morogrim, LDW, Valithria, Mu'ru, a good number of Ulduar encounters... all fall into this category. These actually number on some of the more interesting and sometimes harder encounters we have seen. Mu'ru was just plain annoyingly difficult as we all know. Freya, Mimiron and Thorim are amongst the highlights of Ulduar where Razorscale and Ignis are amongst the less than stellar outings. Adds can make or break and encounter and always give the other tank something to do.

In short, the "tank swap at # debuffs" mechanic is old, but how do you solve for the current numerical paradigm without using it liberally? Gone are the days where Blizzard had the leeway to just make fun encounters and let the raid group manage their specs and roles to make things feasibly defeatable. Gone are the days where they can even make 3 and 4 tank encounters because of the limitations of the 10 man raid. So yes, we will be seeing more and more of this, because Blizzard can't get out of the corner they have so expertly painted themselves into over the last 4 years. We can complain all we want, but the reality is the reality. Unless MoP comes with yet another huge change in the raid paradigm like both of the last 2 expansions have done, we are stuck.

Kahmal
12-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Yea I never really took the whole 10 vs 25 dilemna into account for encounter design, but it didn't stop Ulduar from being awesome.

And bare in mind the current tank swap method is only 2 expansions old really, when most bosses became tauntable in WoTLK, its just been extremely overused for how boring it is.

Tengenstein
12-06-2011, 08:10 PM
One of the most fun encounters I've had as a tank was 25man XT, I'm not sure if it was a bug or something, but one reset we had his adds constantly spawning, it made picking up pummelers and avoiding bombots fun

Kahmal
12-06-2011, 09:50 PM
One thing I forgot to keep in mind is that probably a reason I"m so tired of this mechanic is because its used in every damn Wintergrasp/Baradin Hold encounter. Everyboss in BH has a tank swap, in Wintergrasp Archavon, Toravon and Koralon had a tank swap. I think Emalon tried to change it up with that add that had to picked up and burned, but people sucked at it. So I'm guessing Blizzard just wants those encounters as easy as possible for the the PvPers and incompetent.

Dreadski
12-06-2011, 10:15 PM
I don't think the fire guy in vault required a tank swap, and Emalon could be solo tanked IIRC.

Outbackjack
12-07-2011, 07:35 AM
Koralon (Fire guy (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=35013)) just needed a second tank to take the saberlash type effect, Meteor Fists. He could basically just sit there like the offtanks on Mother Shahraz (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22947) or Blood-Queen Lana'thel (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=37955).

We should create a table of tank fights or something, this is getting entertaining.

Tengenstein
12-07-2011, 07:49 AM
So I'm guessing Blizzard just wants those encounters as easy as possible for the the PvPers and incompetent.

I don't think the PVPers care much for it either, being able to switch targets and burn are somewhat vital skills for PVP

Tielyn
12-07-2011, 04:51 PM
I remember doing the High King Maulgar fight -- now -that- was a fun puzzle. We made some of the hunters and one of the mages into tanks for that fight, and the warlocks were on 'uh oh, new felhound, quick, Enslave it' duty.... everything had to go right.

I think the problem is that Flan (aka Magma Custard's Last Stand) was too hard for some of the tanks who were trained to (as I politely put it) 'stand there and look pretty.' Me? I loved tanking Flan bosses, because there were mechanics that made you stretch your abilities and also forced some of the other classes do something more than just stand there and DPS or heal. "Sorry, on Rhyolith, your tanks are going to have their hands full. DPS get to drive the boss. Three of my DPS and one healer stepped up to the plate and said, "We'll learn it."

The problem became trying to teach the tanks who didn't have all the 'want to be the multitool, use your your buttons and exercise battlefield awareness tank role' skill/desire to tank the fight. And short of kicking them completely out of the raid group, I -had- to teach them, one at a time. Leading to an Alysrazor fight where two of them could not stay up (they were standing in the lawn sprinklers) nor get their hatchlings down; finally I just gave up and said to the one who would accept it better; 'You. Go DPS. I don't care if your DPS sucks. Gimme. I'll show you how it's done.' I rebalanced the DPS to compensate for the other tank's lack of ability to kill their bird, and still munched my chicken first. On Rhyolith/10 I one tank all the adds, and I set the bar for the other tanks to follow.

I am our raid's emergency tank, until Mists hits, and then I am relegated to being either a tank, dps, or healer, not the bearcat I enjoy being. I taught our tanks Shannox by first by making them follow me around while I did the move/kite/dodge traps routine while being second on aggro, and then had them tank it with me being second on aggro so we didn't have a complete wipe if the tank died. I've picked up Riplimb when the Riplimb tank had too many stacks because he failed to drop them, and had the DPS back off until I overtook them on threat or they died, and we pulled that one out.

When Dragon Soul hit, I looked at the Zon'ozz fight and groaned. "A one tank fight where the tank has to move the boss to collide with a moving object? This will not end well." As predicted, my two 'main tanks' would let the ball get by the boss, or else face the boss towards the healers/ranged, or not face him the right way at all. And I don't understand how they can miss a GIANT PURPLE BALL heading towards them, but clearly, DS is designed mostly for them. :| I had one of my DPSers rant at me about how Zon'ozz is cake with an LFR PUG and yet we were having trouble with it on Normal, and then I ran an LFR PUG with the boss and saw the why -- the entire group ignored the purple ball, and yet it sat there until I ran up and batted at it by myself as the only ruddy person in there with raid/fight awareness, and because I was a tank, I didn't die. It -is- a tank and spank fight in the LFR.

Last note: I was in a ZA dungeon run on my mage. The tank admits he doesn't know the instance. So we give him detailed instructions. On the last boss, the tank fails to taunt the lynx during the claw fury attack he does, and the first DPS dies. Then the second claw attack nearly kills me, and I ice block. The third claw attack kills the healer, and we wipe.

The warrior says, not unkindly, "You do know where your taunt button is, right? If you don't taunt, that's fatal to whoever he's attacking."
The hunter, joking, says, "It's right next to the bubble button."
The tank replies, "...what's my bubble button?"

The next attempt, I get the first attack (I iceblock), the healer gets the second attack and dies, the warrior gets the third attack and dies.

The warrior: "Do we need to teach you how to taunt? Seriously?"

The tank mysteriously disconnects after we wipe for the third time.

This appears to be our future, where the learning curve of finding where your buttons are is mitigated by having 500% threat baked in. Where good enough healers can save you from not taunting at 3, but 7 stacks of a debuff because your OT wasn't paying attention. We are going back in the direction of the days where all the tank needed to do was stand there and AoE with impunity, and now even CC'd mobs don't pull. I kinda liked it at the beginning of Cataclysm where you had to use CC on the fly again, and practice precision tanking while protecting overzealous DPS from their own idiocy, even if the trash packs at the front of BoT/25 gave us headaches.

Weep for us all, I think. :| And maybe I will go full DPS, because if there's no challenge to tanking, there's no point, eh? :}

-Tielyn

Leucifer
12-07-2011, 05:35 PM
Part of the issue, as I see it, is.... what can really be "threatenting" to a tank anymore, without giving a healer a heart attack? Balancing out tank health against boss damage and healer strength is becoming a problem. Honestly, if we were only really dealing with PvE, it wouldn't be an issue. However, at least two of these factors have to translate across into PvP, and there is where the problem rears it's head.

Figure, a 200k tank in PvE, you could easily make it a situation where a boss hits for a greater percentage of health, and bump up heals to compensate for this accordingly. By adjusting how the tank/heal team have to cooperate to deal with an encounter, you can increase the difficulty and challenge of a fight. However, when you adjust the heals end of this equation you create a potential problem in PvP.

How do you make health, heals, and damage balance in PvP versus other players..... and have those same abilities translate directly to PvE?

If I increase tank health to deal with a PvE mechanic, I've now "unbalanced" PvP. this was one of the common gripes at the tail end of WotLK. Tanks could roll into PvP with 2 to 3x the amount of health as a cloth counterpart.

If I increase heals to compensate for larger boss damage, then I've now given healers a huge advantage in PvP, as we have currently in the state of PvP. Healers are generally able to power through ANY damage a single player can deliver. Or even two. The limit they face is mana resources, but even then..... because of PvE mechanics and healers being expected to maintain a certain amount of heals over a 6 min fight.... mana can't be set back too hard.

I've frequently seen this in PvP. I see it every day when I run my holy pally. One person is NOT enough to take me down. Two, frequently is not enough. Three is about the point I hit problems.... And I don't have ANY RESILIENCE GEAR YET.

For DPS, making it meaningful in PvE is not the real issue. Boss health is adjusted to compensate for this. The limiting factor is... again... PvP. Blizzard can't make a DPS player so powerful that they can instantly one-shot an opponent in PvP, or it becomes instantly "unfair". So, they have to scale their abilities in relation to other toons. THIS.... is the actual limiting factor.

TL;DR?......

PvP Balance limits PvE mechanics.

PvP vs PvE balance is a significant part of the problem, and as stats increase on items, it will/has become increasingly difficult for Blizzard to maintain that balance. But, Blizzard HAS to somehow balance each class and abilities of them against each other for PvP. It's how they have set the game up. This limits what they can do for boss fights and other encounter in PvE.

Dreadski
12-07-2011, 06:39 PM
I had my first trip into Baradin Hold today with a PUG, we did only the newest boss. It was about as fun as killing Archavon in ICC gear, as in, not. I understand they want it to be killable by most anyone, but I think it's a bit overkill. That and all mage gear dropped with no mage, GG.

Kahmal
12-08-2011, 12:01 AM
@Tielyn I think this just all goes back to not only the game becoming easier but the LFR discussion we've been having a 10 page discussion about. If players aren't relentless punished in 5 man content and clearly aren't going to learn jack from that LFR stuff. Its just not possible for these "wrath babies" to learn the game properly.

The lack of discipline required for most 5 mans is quite sad, as a DPS I can charge in careless and not focus fire like in the old days with no repercussions. And honestly, as a tank I can literally start a rotation for a few seconds and then alt tab w/o losing aggro.

I really dont see Healing being much of an issue at all though in terms of threatening the tanks its a mechanics problem, a tank should know how to be light on his feet and prepared for anything, not to know he has to taunt at 3+ stacks.

Libellus
12-08-2011, 06:00 AM
The lack of discipline required for most 5 mans is quite sad, as a DPS I can charge in careless and not focus fire like in the old days with no repercussions. And honestly, as a tank I can literally start a rotation for a few seconds and then alt tab w/o losing aggro.

I think this is something what "wrath hath wrought." especially towards the end of the ICC era, where tanks in 5mans were superfluous and everyone and their dog got into the habit of ninja pulling. That was for the better part of 6months as well, so a sizeable number of new WoW players will have come into the game assuming "thats how heroics work." Cataclysm must have been a bit of a shock at first.

Sadly, I don't think Blizz had a choice with what to do with heroic difficulty in Cata. They held the line for a while, hoping the portion of the playerbase that was struggling would L2P, but it didn't. Blizz realised that you can't make people play how you want them to. And if they don't want to play how you want them to, they might just quit.

So we're stuck with a tanking system which is pretty dumbed down from what we remember in the past.:(

Kahmal
12-08-2011, 07:50 AM
I think this is something what "wrath hath wrought." especially towards the end of the ICC era, where tanks in 5mans were superfluous and everyone and their dog got into the habit of ninja pulling. That was for the better part of 6months as well, so a sizeable number of new WoW players will have come into the game assuming "thats how heroics work." Cataclysm must have been a bit of a shock at first.

Sadly, I don't think Blizz had a choice with what to do with heroic difficulty in Cata. They held the line for a while, hoping the portion of the playerbase that was struggling would L2P, but it didn't. Blizz realised that you can't make people play how you want them to. And if they don't want to play how you want them to, they might just quit.

So we're stuck with a tanking system which is pretty dumbed down from what we remember in the past.:(

It was pretty much since the launch of WoTLK, a tank in full blues had no need to CC anything to stay alive. This is a critical error Blizzard made that created the chain of events were stuck in now that I still can't comprehend. They wanted to make raiding more accessible which needed to be done, but why in the heavens name did they make 5-man content a joke!?

feralminded
12-08-2011, 10:24 AM
The horse is dead, and this is way off topic, but I still strongly believe and advocate that these LFD dungeons should be called "normal" dungeons and true heroic dungeons should be available outside of the LFD just like normal/heroic raids for individuals seeking a dedicated 5 man challenge. It wouldn't even be that much more effort on their part since its the same content just tuned differently but we would all win. Make it hand out gear equal to LFR so people who don't want to raid have a separate, meaningful, and challenging progression path.

Kahmal
12-08-2011, 10:54 AM
The horse is dead, and this is way off topic, but I still strongly believe and advocate that these LFD dungeons should be called "normal" dungeons and true heroic dungeons should be available outside of the LFD just like normal/heroic raids for individuals seeking a dedicated 5 man challenge. It wouldn't even be that much more effort on their part since its the same content just tuned differently but we would all win. Make it hand out gear equal to LFR so people who don't want to raid have a separate, meaningful, and challenging progression path.

Or perhaps give incentive to not use LFD.

Dreadski
12-08-2011, 11:12 AM
The horse is dead, and this is way off topic, but I still strongly believe and advocate that these LFD dungeons should be called "normal" dungeons and true heroic dungeons should be available outside of the LFD just like normal/heroic raids for individuals seeking a dedicated 5 man challenge. It wouldn't even be that much more effort on their part since its the same content just tuned differently but we would all win. Make it hand out gear equal to LFR so people who don't want to raid have a separate, meaningful, and challenging progression path.


Actually, I support this. Pretty damn good suggestion. Gearing (you know, minus exploits) in LFR is a pain in the balls. With a dedicated 5 man group doing BC-style heroic runs (flying the hell out to the instance and zoning in like a boss) would satiate me. Instance lockouts would be back but that would mean you could run each instance every day if needed instead of farming the dog shit out of 3 randoms to get FL-N level gear, which I did, and it sucked.

Kahmal
12-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Actually, I support this. Pretty damn good suggestion. Gearing (you know, minus exploits) in LFR is a pain in the balls. With a dedicated 5 man group doing BC-style heroic runs (flying the hell out to the instance and zoning in like a boss) would satiate me. Instance lockouts would be back but that would mean you could run each instance every day if needed instead of farming the dog shit out of 3 randoms to get FL-N level gear, which I did, and it sucked.

Would also encourage people to learn to play better, instead of getting carried in LFR and rolling against a lot of people.

Ion
12-08-2011, 12:59 PM
The horse is dead, and this is way off topic, but I still strongly believe and advocate that these LFD dungeons should be called "normal" dungeons and true heroic dungeons should be available outside of the LFD just like normal/heroic raids for individuals seeking a dedicated 5 man challenge. It wouldn't even be that much more effort on their part since its the same content just tuned differently but we would all win. Make it hand out gear equal to LFR so people who don't want to raid have a separate, meaningful, and challenging progression path.
Actually, I support this. Pretty damn good suggestion. Gearing (you know, minus exploits) in LFR is a pain in the balls. With a dedicated 5 man group doing BC-style heroic runs (flying the hell out to the instance and zoning in like a boss) would satiate me. Instance lockouts would be back but that would mean you could run each instance every day if needed instead of farming the dog shit out of 3 randoms to get FL-N level gear, which I did, and it sucked.

I like this idea too, actually. The "real heroics" would have to be tuned to be fairly difficult, but it's an interesting idea.

Dreadski
12-08-2011, 01:14 PM
It was a good feeling as a warrior, tanking Shattered Halls with no CC. Huge epeen blaster.

Reev
12-08-2011, 01:21 PM
It was a good feeling as a warrior, tanking Shattered Halls with no CC. Huge epeen blaster.

Yes. That feeling isn't really possible anymore though, with AoE 500% threat. When Thunderclap hit 4 targets only and there was no blood and thunder or shockwave, those were the days when tanks were TANKS.

Kahmal
12-08-2011, 03:35 PM
Yes. That feeling isn't really possible anymore though, with AoE 500% threat. When Thunderclap hit 4 targets only and there was no blood and thunder or shockwave, those were the days when tanks were TANKS.

Gotta give DPS credit also. Like I said I'm a little annoyed by the lack of discipline PvE requires now, as amazing as it was for a Warrior tank Heroic Shattered Halls with out CC, it wasn't going to happen with your DPS AoEing all over the place, these days I mark a Skull and it still dies last lol. Also DPS had a responsibility especially the ranged to act as the last line of defense for the healer if anything got by the tank and stall, cause we all know the healer would get one shot if it wasn't Frost Nova'd, Scattered, or w/e.

Libellus
12-09-2011, 02:33 AM
Kahmal is right. The awesome feeling for a tank back then was knowing it took skill to allow DPS to operate at the bleeding edge, while at the same time not leaving you healer going "oom. I'm oom. Anyone? Oom?"

The teamwork mattered more then and I'd rather be part of a great team, than the only good player in an average team.

Dreadski
12-09-2011, 08:59 AM
Ha. Average team indeed. Try this one on for size: End of Time, last boss (hourglass). Priest healer stands in breath and faceplants and the 3 dps die to ground effects. Tank pops CDs and hits hourglass, boss dies that attempt. Half the time I can't even score average players. I'm certainly not the best by any means and would never claim to be but really some common sense is totally lost on these people to even be able to cope with simple mechanics in a nerfed 5 man that allows you to go back in time and cheat death.

Libellus
12-09-2011, 09:15 AM
but really some common sense is totally lost on these people to even be able to cope with simple mechanics in a nerfed 5 man that allows you to go back in time and cheat death.

Please tell me these idiots died 5 times. Please.:D

Dreadski
12-09-2011, 10:12 AM
Not all of them did...the first time lapse thingy it killed them all, after that it was like a lottery! Honestly, these people need a tongue lashing but it's not even worth the time.

Theotherone
12-09-2011, 10:16 AM
Not all of them did...the first time lapse thingy it killed them all, after that it was like a lottery! Honestly, these people need a tongue lashing but it's not even worth the time.

Nope, kill the boss, collect bag of goodies and vp's and get the hell out of dodge since whatever they have could be contagious.

Oratory
12-12-2011, 05:32 PM
There have been other fights not requiring a taunt swap that are just as boring: Blood Queen being the biggest culprit for offtank boredom/afking and Yor'sajh being a current example of a boring single tank fight.


So I don't agree that taunt swaps being boring is the problem - although they certainly are not interesting. The problem is that the other tank, the one not currently tanking the boss, has nothing to do.


Cho'gall handled this well requiring tank swaps and throwing out adds for the current off-tank to pickup and drag around the room.

feralminded
12-12-2011, 05:47 PM
I feel like the boss design team blew their load all in T11. Almost all of the 2 tank fights in T11 were very interesting for both tanks with unique and fun stuff to do or at least interesting timing for what they had to do. Fireland just didn't have much in the way of two tank fights and dragonsoul just has the same old boring two tank stuff. I would really like to see a solid post-mortem on this expansion with explanations for WHY. We seriously got a LOT less content than previous tiers/expansions and there HAS to be a reason. Obviously they are reversing it for MoP because they realize they have to or let the product die ... but really blizz?

Kahmal
12-12-2011, 06:12 PM
There have been other fights not requiring a taunt swap that are just as boring: Blood Queen being the biggest culprit for offtank boredom/afking and Yor'sajh being a current example of a boring single tank fight.


So I don't agree that taunt swaps being boring is the problem - although they certainly are not interesting. The problem is that the other tank, the one not currently tanking the boss, has nothing to do.


Cho'gall handled this well requiring tank swaps and throwing out adds for the current off-tank to pickup and drag around the room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ifTSkSeVk

Theotherone
12-13-2011, 09:08 AM
I feel like the boss design team blew their load all in T11. Almost all of the 2 tank fights in T11 were very interesting for both tanks with unique and fun stuff to do or at least interesting timing for what they had to do. Fireland just didn't have much in the way of two tank fights and dragonsoul just has the same old boring two tank stuff. I would really like to see a solid post-mortem on this expansion with explanations for WHY. We seriously got a LOT less content than previous tiers/expansions and there HAS to be a reason. Obviously they are reversing it for MoP because they realize they have to or let the product die ... but really blizz?

A pure guess on my part is that the massive quest redesign and world redesign took a lot of resources and ate more production time than was originally anticipated. No time line in the corporate world is ever correct and projects never take less time than budgeted. The world and the game did need a facelift, questing did need to become a bit quicker with 85 levels to get through. Now that the revamp is done, I think we'll see more content in MoP.

Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 06:50 PM
On normal mode 10man, 2-3 heals, the first 4 bosses are 1 tankable. CD management=win.

Herr Drache
02-03-2012, 08:33 AM
Ah yes, the good old BC times, where you had that great definition of "Main Tank" and "Off Tank" which still haunts us - and pisses me off!
Main Tank: Gets all the glory and all the first upgrades. Why? Because he drags the boss over there somewhere and keeps him still.
Off Tank: Gets the "Oh, you're just the off tank" treatment. Stands around somewhere to eat sparks. Stands around somewhere to eat the Hurtful Strike" Or runs around like mad collecting adds.

Thank you. I'd rather taunt-swap a single boss, or taunt-swap adds (Hi Ulduar Trash!) and have both tanks required to be similarly geared - and it not really matter "do you or I take him first", because it's two tanks playing, not MT and OT.

And I hate the current "Oh, single tank everything" stuff. If I wanted to play DPS, I'd bring my mage. Or my rogue. No, I don't have a dps spec, and my bags are full with trinkets and gear already. And the other tank is a tank because he likes tanking, too - and because he hates being Ret.

BC wasn't all great and wonderful, and Cata isn't all bad.

Fetzie
02-03-2012, 08:40 AM
On normal mode 10man, 2-3 heals, the first 4 bosses are 1 tankable. CD management=win.

On normal mode, all bosses except Ultraxion and Gunship are 1 tankable. And if you have a dps with a taunt, you can single tank Ultraxion too.

Tengenstein
02-03-2012, 08:57 AM
I'm actually rather tempted to try and Solo tank Gunship. the Debuffs from the adds aren't really much of an issue, and Blackhorns Devastates are quite dodge/Block/parryable, so naybve some smart trinkt choices and some HL kiting to reset stacks might work.

Dreadski
02-03-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm actually rather tempted to try and Solo tank Gunship. the Debuffs from the adds aren't really much of an issue, and Blackhorns Devastates are quite dodge/Block/parryable, so naybve some smart trinkt choices and some HL kiting to reset stacks might work.

If the debuff is blockable, why does a CTC capped tank get sundered at all? I find the debuff falls off once in a blue moon but I attributed it do avoidance rather than a block. Other than that I agree about the debuffs at least on normal, my other tank is a little derp and I've been double-debuffed rather often without problems.

Dreadski
02-03-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm actually rather tempted to try and Solo tank Gunship. the Debuffs from the adds aren't really much of an issue, and Blackhorns Devastates are quite dodge/Block/parryable, so naybve some smart trinkt choices and some HL kiting to reset stacks might work.

If the debuff is blockable, why does a CTC capped tank get sundered at all? I find the debuff falls off once in a blue moon but I attributed it do avoidance rather than a block. Other than that I agree about the debuffs at least on normal, my other tank is a little derp and I've been double-debuffed rather often without problems.

Dreadski
02-03-2012, 12:13 PM
On normal mode, all bosses except Ultraxion and Gunship are 1 tankable. And if you have a dps with a taunt, you can single tank Ultraxion too.
Can paladins not soak all of the hours? The one I keep running with seems to keep doing it. Perhaps it's less noticeable because I'm still staying out for half of them?

Fetzie
02-03-2012, 12:24 PM
Paladins can. But you need somebody to taunt the boss before you hit heroic will to keep the threat lead.

Tengenstein
02-04-2012, 12:25 AM
If the debuff is blockable, why does a CTC capped tank get sundered at all? I find the debuff falls off once in a blue moon but I attributed it do avoidance rather than a block. Other than that I agree about the debuffs at least on normal, my other tank is a little derp and I've been double-debuffed rather often without problems.

ok maybe blocklable was being precise over accurate, you can block the attack, but block only works against the damage, debuffs still get applied as they have since i started playing

Airowird
02-04-2012, 03:14 AM
ok maybe blocklable was being precise over accurate, you can block the attack, but block only works against the damage, debuffs still get applied as they have since i started playingActually, it used to be (WAAAY back in patch 1.3ish) that if you blocked even 1 damage, no debuff would be applied. A lot of Rogues and Warriors complained it it got changed to what it is now (if it does damage, it does its debuff)

Kahmal
02-04-2012, 10:19 PM
Ah yes, the good old BC times, where you had that great definition of "Main Tank" and "Off Tank" which still haunts us - and pisses me off!
Main Tank: Gets all the glory and all the first upgrades. Why? Because he drags the boss over there somewhere and keeps him still.
Off Tank: Gets the "Oh, you're just the off tank" treatment. Stands around somewhere to eat sparks. Stands around somewhere to eat the Hurtful Strike" Or runs around like mad collecting adds.

Thank you. I'd rather taunt-swap a single boss, or taunt-swap adds (Hi Ulduar Trash!) and have both tanks required to be similarly geared - and it not really matter "do you or I take him first", because it's two tanks playing, not MT and OT.

And I hate the current "Oh, single tank everything" stuff. If I wanted to play DPS, I'd bring my mage. Or my rogue. No, I don't have a dps spec, and my bags are full with trinkets and gear already. And the other tank is a tank because he likes tanking, too - and because he hates being Ret.

BC wasn't all great and wonderful, and Cata isn't all bad.

Funny thing about the Main Tank getting all of the glory is normally the Off-tank's job was harder. I also personally dont remember that much of a hierachy, the MT always got gear first for progression purposes. Bare in mind TBC had a lot of encounters that required more then 2 tanks (something I think they should revisit in Hard Modes what with dual spec n all) so there was normally a defacto Main Off-Tank if not an official one who was considered damn near as important. It was the ones under the main Off-tank that got shafted lol.

Gregasaurous
02-05-2012, 01:34 AM
Well, if we want to get technical, a blood DK with pro button skills can solo tank ultraxion without any help at all. And yes, Spine and Madness are also very doable with 1 tank on 10n (not sure about 25 for madness).

Warmaster: I've been wanting to try one tanking that for while now. The adds debuffs just kind of tickle a little bit, and with good DPS and alternating priority i imagine they could be kept well under control. The only thing that separates Blackhorn from Morchok IMO, is that Blackhorn's hits actually pack a solid punch, and even more so when he's at -30%. That and at around 8(?) stacks Morchok will have a blood of the earth phase which lets you drop your stacks. But I would imagine for Blackhorn there is a simple enough way to get your stacks off. Maybe tanking in one corner and running to an apposing corner while he casts Shockwave, further mobility from there.

Theotherone
02-06-2012, 07:32 AM
We semi-one tank Warmaster 10 man. We use one tank for the adds (our Warrior) and the other tank (DK) runs around getting in whatever little swirls he can and Deathgripping Sappers. When the boss lands both tanks go to him, but I can't say they really taunt off; he's been dying pretty fast these days. Healing the raid provides more work than the tank. I'd say it's pretty one tankable. Especially, when Radiance hits 10%.

This is all on normal.

Fetzie
02-06-2012, 09:05 AM
I wouldn't want to solo-tank blackhorn until 15% (P2 at least, the tank damage in P1 was pathetic before the debuff, and is even moreso now). Without a cooldown running, his melee swings and Devastate can get really evil sub 20% with more than 3 stacks of the ArP debuff.

Valaras
02-07-2012, 06:05 PM
1 tank - 2 heal is actually easily possible for every single normal mode (+ you can solo heal Morchok np) if you have people skilled enough. I would say that all heroics apart from Madness are 2-healable at the moment. Some heroics are even solo-healable like Ultraxion and Warmaster (we have only solo-healed P2 on heroic because a healer was DC, but p1 requires a lot less healing anyway, so I think it's possible to do if you pop your mana CDs + a potion at the transition from P1 to P2). My point is, a really good healer, with the support of high enough DPS to down everything really fast, could most likely solo-heal every single DS fight on normal and I'm not even convinced it needs that much gear. You'd just have to be assisted by tank 4-sets on heavy AoE damage phases like Warlord black and you are good to go.

klausi
02-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Some heroics are even solo-healable like Ultraxion and Warmaster (we have only solo-healed P2 on heroic because a healer was DC, but p1 requires a lot less healing anyway, so I think it's possible to do if you pop your mana CDs + a potion at the transition from P1 to P2).
Just looking at our recent kills, it's 60k rdps during phase 2 with both drake and boss up and until the end and that's ~ 180 seconds. Adding another dps might decrease the time spent in that phase by 20-30s but that's still an insane job to pull off. On the plus side: disrupting roar is on a long cooldown and you got all the time in the world to bring your raid back up but the tanks eat 30k on top of that.

Phase 1 don't require high hps (compared to p2 - 40-50k ish depending on your raids ability to avoid blade rush) but some neat bursts to top soakers off.

Anyway i just want to rephrase

if you have people skilled enough.
to "if you have people geared enough." I assume that your roster don't change totally and people don't have to adapt to completely new playstyles, just pushing their buttons at the start of t13 as hard as today... but all those procc trinkets & weapons + 4 piece boni on everyone is an insane push over t12 gear (eg arms warrior +30% total dps), making fights considerable shorter (on top of those recently implemented icecrown esque buff).

Valaras
02-08-2012, 06:01 AM
Anyway i just want to rephrase

to "if you have people geared enough." I assume that your roster don't change totally and people don't have to adapt to completely new playstyles, just pushing their buttons at the start of t13 as hard as today... but all those procc trinkets & weapons + 4 piece boni on everyone is an insane push over t12 gear (eg arms warrior +30% total dps), making fights considerable shorter (on top of those recently implemented icecrown esque buff).


No, normal modes do not need ridiculous gear to solo heal. Some people push their buttons better than others and that's it.