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terraflare
11-22-2011, 07:00 PM
Before saying anything, yes i know, defeating rag with pug is quite common, while here i am, standing with all my might from my guild and yet we still cannot defeat this guy.

The only problem in the raid (i think) is the team composition. My team composition is as follows:

2 tanks:
- Protection paladin
- Blood DK / Protection Warrior / Another protection paladin

3 healers:
- resto shaman / holy paladin
- Holy / Disc priest
- resto druid

5 dps:
- Affliction Warlock
- Arms warrior
- balance druid
- arcane mage
- shadow priest / enhancement shaman

Now what i mean by the slashes is that these members are not really committed, so sometimes they get replaced by one another in the same row of dashes.

My biggest problem is: TRANSITION PHASE

My dps friends are unable to nuke down the sons of flame when they spawn, especially for the affliction warlock, he simply cannot do enough burst to down the sons to 50% hp (he's currently our top dps thou, mind you).
And so we changed our composition a bit, we decrease the healer to 2 (only druid and priest left) and up the dps to 6, causing more dps throughput for the sons and to help out our warlock. We made it through the first transition phase, but 2nd phase soon kills us after since there are just way too many movement, thus very little healing provided, making the hp to be unable to be topped on time.

Now my questions are:
1) which is better for the composition, 2 heals or 3 heals?
2) if we are doing 3 heals, what can the affliction warlock do to down the hp of the sons on time?
3) if we are doing 2 heals, what can the healers do to top the hp of the raid on time? Druid has no problem but the priest is not going to do much.

Up until now, we cannot even touch the 2nd phase transition. D:
Any tips or tricks will be greatly appreciated :)

klausi
11-23-2011, 07:00 AM
Three healing shines during the transition when the sons spawn at very far ends but your real problem are the sons themselves so another dps should be better.

The warlock could respecc to another specc but he's still a caster and it takes some (casting-)time to wristle an add down. Give him the furthest away and he shouldn't forget about his soulswap, having up to three dots ticking with only one button press.

This way you'll have eight "dps"/dealers with the adds, every tank should be capable of slowing a son (even during the second transition with the scions arising) leaving you with one dps for every other son.

Also don't forget about your knockbacks from mage (activating shield and eating some magma to procc it) and druid to get some more control, your setup is very lightheavy on stuns/etc (ignoring tanks, they can't always be around during second transition).

Quinafoi
11-23-2011, 09:14 AM
My dps friends are unable to nuke down the sons of flame when they spawn, especially for the affliction warlock, he simply cannot do enough burst to down the sons to 50% hp (he's currently our top dps thou, mind you).
Clearly your Balance Druid is slacking.


1) which is better for the composition, 2 heals or 3 heals?
Use three heals.


2) if we are doing 3 heals, what can the affliction warlock do to down the hp of the sons on time?
Get help. Did you know a Restoration Druid can preplant three Wild Mushrooms where the add will spawn and wait for the nameplate to appear before detonating. Wild Mushroom: Detonate is off of the GCD and won't cost them much in healing time. Additionally damage doesn't start coming in right away, there is a delay at the start of the phase. Even a Restoration Druid doing this will typically be able to knock off about 25-40% of its health doing this. Also it would be best to assign slower DPS to adds which spawn further from the hammer. The Druid isn't the only non-DPS that can help as well.

Tuftears
11-23-2011, 03:09 PM
One big gotcha is that you do not want the seed elementals to pop up during your 2nd phase transition, so you should hold DPS at 45% if necessary until they're down.

My 10-man group goes with 2 healers, but we also assign people to fixed locations so it is easy for people to remember where they need to be and which Son they should be smacking as soon as possible. Something like this:

Melee or ranged DPS (far left, #1)
Melee with stuns
Tank
Ranged DPS
Ranged DPS
Tank
Melee with stuns
Melee or ranged (far right, #8)

Positions will change slightly depending on where the hammer is going to drop, but doing it this way ensures that both tanks are near where a Scion will appear so they can pick them up quickly.

We also go from right to left for seeds, then left to right on the following seed. With everyone gathered closer, it's easier to heal everyone instead of having to target people too far away for group heals. This may help ease your healing burden.

Tengenstein
11-23-2011, 04:11 PM
As an Aff lock it is hard, Make sure he soulswaps off Rag before he submerges, then CoE,> Soulburn: Soul Fire > SoulSwap > Shadowflame. He may want to save Demonsoul, and/or trinkets for transitions. As for Phase 2, there' shoudln't be that much damage too heal out side of the tank. Yeah when the seeds hit poeple take a knock and then again when they explode, but his hammer and engulf are easily avoided, so people shouldn't be getting hit by them.

ananoon
11-23-2011, 04:32 PM
1) which is better for the composition, 2 heals or 3 heals?


If your healers are decent, 2 healing is best. Many guilds were two healing this fight before the nerfs. Post-nerf, it's even more viable.

The only real healing intensive part of the fight is in p2, when seeds erupt and the molten elementals come to the raid on the stacking point. A lot of this damage can be avoided if the raid is good about dropping the seeds far from the stacking point. Our guild uses the typical strat where the whole raid spreads outside of the axe graphic on the floor, and runs to stack centered in front of Rag. The key is to see your seed actually falling (don't trust DBM) before you start running, otherwise you might drop the seeds closer to the stacking point, increasing that initial damage. After the explosion, the damage from the elementals is easy for two healers to heal through. The added dps from having your 3rd healer go dps helps get them down faster too, reducing total damage.



Now my questions are:
2) if we are doing 3 heals, what can the affliction warlock do to down the hp of the sons on time?

As much as I love affliction, it's probably the single worst spec for this particular mechanic. That being said, it shouldn't be a big issue if you do your assignments properly. We assign a specific son to each dps/tank. If you're two healing, that's exactly one dps/tank per son, otherwise you'll have to have on dps take two sons (not a problem for most melee with stuns).

Assign the lock to a son that's between ones assigned to a class that has stuns and good burst (i.e. melee). If you have a holy paly or a healer with war stomp, have them stun this add for the lock.

The lock should soul swap off of Rag when the phase transition starts. It's best he switches from Bane of Doom to Bane of Agony before he pulls the swap. When his add spawns, he should soul swap to the son immediately, haunt, soulburn: soulfire (even though it's a destro spell, it's a bit of instant damage), then proceed to drain life or nuke with SB. If it's far from the hammer, or it's been stunned by another dps, this should be enough time to get some ticks off all the dots.

If he's still having problems, he can hardcast summon his succubus. The succubus has a ranged knockback (whiplash) with reticule he can use to knock back the add if it gets too close. I believe this spell was fixed in a previous patch, so that the knockback is from the center of the reticule out, as opposed to being from the succy. Once the phase ends, he can soulburn: summon his felhunter back. If pet switching is hard for your lock, he can take a dps loss, and use the succy the whole fight. If he does this, he should glyph for the succy to max its damage.

As a last resort, your lock can use his infernal to aoe stun any adds that get too close to the hammer. This should be avoided since it's a dps loss (doomguard is best used on Rag), but in a pinch he has that option.



3) if we are doing 2 heals, what can the healers do to top the hp of the raid on time? Druid has no problem but the priest is not going to do much.

Any two healers should be able to top off the raid, especially if you have druid. The key is to minimize damage from the seeds first, and that requires your whole raid being smart and not dropping their seeds next to the stacking point.

If you priest is disc, he can precast prayer of healing before the seeds pop to get divine aegis up on his party members. He can then individually shield those outside his party with pw: s. He can also use barrier for one of the stacks.

Esarael
11-23-2011, 06:27 PM
I would also say 2 healing is best if your healers are capable; we are not a super raid but we did it pre-nerf nonetheless and found it much easier. Like ananoon said, P2 is the only healing-intensive part which can be mitigated by good positioning/moving and smart defensive cooldown usage. Encourage your raiders to save (and use!) defensive cooldowns for this period, such as:



Divine Protection (Paladins)
Barkskin (Druids)
Dispersion (Shadow Priest)
Mana Shield and Mage Ward (Mage)
Shamanistic Rage (Shaman)


Besides rotating raid healing and using tanking cooldowns on this period (AMS, for DKs, is marvelous!). Remember that a Balance Druid's Tranquility is a powerful healing cooldown!

If your raiders don't mess up, there shouldn't be any raid damage at all during phase 3, and three healers ends up being a waste at that time. Only tanks should really be taking damage there, since Living Meteors, Engulfing Flame, and Lava Waves are all supposed to be avoided.

The extra DPS makes it easier to handle transitions and might end up shortening phases 1 or 2, reducing your Trap count or the number of times Ragnaros does his Molten Seed. This ends up reducing total raid damage in the fight.

Everything that's been said before me (about nto having Molten Elementals up when transition 2 starts, about the Restro Druid using mushrooms, and about the Affliction Lock handling adds) are things your raiders should bear in mind. I will add some tips I find valuable for the transitions:



Paladins can glyph Holy Wrath for an instant AoE stun (besides Hammer of Justice!)

Protection Warriors have Charge, Intercept, Shockwave and Concussion Blow for 4 stuns and lots of movement!

Death Knights can do Death Grip, a very good emergency button

Arms Warrior can spec into Throwdown for a 5 second stun, on top of Charge's 1 second stun

Balance Druid's Typhoon is also a very good knockback

Enhancement Shaman might want to save Feral Spirit for transition, his wolves can Bash at his command and stun the target


All in all, I wouldn't say your setup is all that bad. Your raiders should bear in mind that the farther from Sulfuras an add's spawn point is, the longer it will take for it to spawn. So, for instance, even though your lock may be assigned to the farthest add, he can probably place a couple of DoTs on 3 or 4 adds before his assigned add spawns.

Hope this helps and good luck!

terraflare
11-24-2011, 09:40 AM
All in all, I wouldn't say your setup is all that bad. Your raiders should bear in mind that the farther from Sulfuras an add's spawn point is, the longer it will take for it to spawn. So, for instance, even though your lock may be assigned to the farthest add, he can probably place a couple of DoTs on 3 or 4 adds before his assigned add spawns.


Yes that's the prob, he cant really pay attention that much, i wouldnt say he's bad, but he's the least that i will have to ask for help when it comes to panic situation.



Get help. Did you know a Restoration Druid can preplant three Wild Mushrooms where the add will spawn and wait for the nameplate to appear before detonating. Wild Mushroom: Detonate is off of the GCD and won't cost them much in healing time. Additionally damage doesn't start coming in right away, there is a delay at the start of the phase. Even a Restoration Druid doing this will typically be able to knock off about 25-40% of its health doing this. Also it would be best to assign slower DPS to adds which spawn further from the hammer. The Druid isn't the only non-DPS that can help as well.

yea i just knew about that when u mention this.

thank you all for the tips and inputs, i really do appreciate it.
oh and btw, few more questions if you guys dont mind:
1) those elementals can be stunned by holy wrath right? but i assume it cant be shackled or banished?
2) if 2nd phase trans happens... what should i do with the other add? cuz 1 tank should take both scions right?

maybe i'll try 2 healing this boss, cuz me and my friend is quite confident for the healing part, but we arent that confident that the mechanics will go that smoothly LOL. i once entered 2nd phase with one supernova triggered LOL.

Esarael
11-24-2011, 10:04 AM
Like I said above, Holy Wrath does work and it's a very powerful utility skill in this scenario; any spec of Paladin can use it, it's instant, and it's AoE! However, CC's in general (Shackle and Banish included) do not work.

You don't need to have one tank pick up both during transition, but it's important that when Ragnaros emerges, the Ragnaros tank is tanking, well, only Ragnaros. This means you can have one tank go to each side and taunt their respective add, but before Ragnaros emerges, say, Tank A must taunt Tank B's Lava Scion (if both are still alive) so that Tank A is free to get Ragnaros.

Of course, one tank can pick up both from the start, but it's harder for the tank in question without a Misdirection-like ability or some heavy movement, and this risks having Lava Scion aggro on your healers, which is bad. In my raid, we have one tank on each side and the off-tank just taunts main tank's Lava Scion as Ragnaros emerges.

uktank
11-24-2011, 10:09 AM
how many times have u wiped ? we did shit loads !!! then came in one sunday and oneshot

ananoon
11-24-2011, 03:26 PM
1) those elementals can be stunned by holy wrath right? but i assume it cant be shackled or banished?

We've only found stuns to work. Slows and other CCs don't work. Blizzard really wants to force you to burst these down to slow them.



2) if 2nd phase trans happens... what should i do with the other add? cuz 1 tank should take both scions right?

The scions spawn before the adds, so its easy for the tank to first pick up his assigned Scion, then continue to his assigned son just like in the first transition phase. Just make sure you have a healer assigned to each tank during this stage.

We mark one of the scions with a skull, and try to keep the last son alive so we can dps at least one scion down before the transition happens. We pop lust at this point. Just be careful, you need to kill that son even if p3 starts, otherwise it will hit the hammer.

As Esarael mentioned, if both scions are still up when Rag comes back, one tank should take Rag, and the other should taunt his scion off to tank both at that point, especially if your tanks aren't very geared.



maybe i'll try 2 healing this boss, cuz me and my friend is quite confident for the healing part, but we arent that confident that the mechanics will go that smoothly LOL. i once entered 2nd phase with one supernova triggered LOL.

This really is best. The extra dps makes everything a lot easier, and healing is trivial through most of this fight. Just need to make sure your raid drop seeds far from the stacking point, and you'll be good.

Rowdy
11-25-2011, 08:22 AM
You should absolutely be able to 2-heal this fight on normal right now.

Transition-phases

- Have your tanks help out with stuns/Death Grip. Each of our two tanks takes care of the closest son to the hammer on his side and takes the Scion spawning on his side. Even an Affliction-WL should be able to kill that son with help from a tank.
- Use the knockback from your Balance-Druid on one side and the two stuns (Charge+Throwdown) of your Arms-Warrior on the other side
- The holy-paladin can use his stuns, too

marklar
11-26-2011, 05:36 PM
maybe i'll try 2 healing this boss, cuz me and my friend is quite confident for the healing part, but we arent that confident that the mechanics will go that smoothly LOL. i once entered 2nd phase with one supernova triggered LOL.

you should REALLY go with 2 heals - it makes the transitions so much easier, and if you're having trouble with the first one, the 2nd transition is even tougher.

the only challenging part to heal is the seeds, and you just need to get into a pattern. once you enter phase 2, it should go something like this:
1) group up on the left side of the room.
2) wait for lava wave to pass, then quickly spread out 6 yards (still on the left).
3) as soon as lava seeds hit, run to the right side of the room - druid is keeping the tanks up.
4) quickly stack together on the right and use one of your healing cooldowns (disc bubble or tranq).
5) aoe like crazy. (watch for the engulfing flames and move quickly if it's in the front).
6) wait for lava wave to pass, then spread out 6 yards.
7) you will get engulfing flames (don't stand in it), then seeds immediately after that. DON'T START RUNNING UNTIL SEEDS - some people get confused by the flames.
8) run to the right side of the room, stack up and use your other raid healing cooldown. it's important that you all stack on the lip of the pool for this one, because you will get a lava wave on top of the group otherwise. have your prot pally use his "raid wall" this time.
9) you should be able to push the transition at this point unless your dps is really, really low. if it is, you'll have to go one more.