PDA

View Full Version : Tanking No stamina gems at all?



maven79
10-29-2011, 08:38 AM
I just finished gearing my Paladin to pre-raid level and just finished a warrior before that. For both of these, with minor differences, I followed the concept of mastery>parry=dodge (parry being slightly better for warrior for hold the line). I trained myself away from the stamina concept of old and tried to only use those gems when the slot bonus was worth it.

So my question is, whenever I plug my character into any optimizer (rawr, etc.) I seem to get a lot of suggestions to put in gems like stamina+mastery stamina+parry or even straight stamina gems where the slot bonus is not worth it. Are these suggestions more based on raiding and not Zandalari/Heroics, where huge spikes with my 150kish unbuffed health would be considered very low? I hate giving up 3-5% avoidance for a measly 5k health.

Paladin http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hyjal/Shori/simple
(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hyjal/Shori/simple)Warrior http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hyjal/Jaist/simple

Thanks a lot for any suggestion or clarification.

Bigbad
10-29-2011, 09:18 AM
In general, yellow: 40 mastery red 20 mastery/20 parry blue: 20 mastery/30stam.

I guess that you don't have raidbuffs in the optimizer thus skewing the result or maybe you're just a tad undergeared in which case a little extra stamina can't hurt. 150k hp unbuffed seems plenty.

Tengenstein
10-29-2011, 09:33 AM
If i recall correctly the eter al meta gem requires 3 blue gems. That means either hybrid stam, hit or spirit gems. Stam actually has some defensive value unlike your other options

Fetzie
10-29-2011, 03:25 PM
You need three of the following to activate the meta gem:

Solid Ocean Sapphire (60 stam, blue)
Puissant Dream Emerald (20 mastery/30 stam, green)
Defender's Demonseye (20 parry/30 stam, purple)

My personal preference before heroic firelands gear (which means easily block capped) is
Blue + Yellow = Puissant Dream Emerald
Red = Fine Ember Topaz (20 mastery/20 parry)
Meta = Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond (1% BV + 82 Stam)

Gives a nice balance between mastery and stamina.

Theotherone
10-31-2011, 07:17 AM
Have some mercy on your healers, gem like Fetzie says; not all damage is physical and as a little healer a little extra stam over what's given by gear is welcome.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 07:56 AM
Your #1 goal should be to get full CTC, so with that in mind you should be doing the following

yellow- Fractured Amberjewel
Red- Defender's Demoneye
Blue- Puissant Dream Emerald

Once you reach 90% CTC them switch from the Auster Shadowspirit diamond to the BV meta(name is escaping me atm)

Tengenstein
11-04-2011, 08:44 AM
if your one goal is CTC coverage why Defender's Demon's Eyes over Fine Ember Topazes?

Also switching to the Eternal Metagem at 90% CTC is wa too late: http://www.bacondev.com/tankmeta/

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 09:58 AM
if your one goal is CTC coverage why Defender's Demon's Eyes over Fine Ember Topazes?

Also switching to the Eternal Metagem at 90% CTC is wa too late: http://www.bacondev.com/tankmeta/

You do need a level of health for what you are doing, defenders provides both and covers you for generaliztions.

What is bacondev? Never heard of it, and looking at the scales and such it seems like 40% uptime on HTL is rather high as is the shield block uptime as its rare you will be using it on CD. However even then at 90% ctc the eternal barely comes out ahead, I dont play a warrior so I cant say the HTL uptime, However I think 25% is more realistic on SB which at 25% uptime the Austere is better at 89%. On the Paladin side 100% HS uptime is impossible.

Tengenstein
11-04-2011, 11:04 AM
On Shannox 10HC I have a 49.7% (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9xk6mah2hlymkx7l/details/10/?s=3921&e=4370) uptime on HtL whilst spending a significant amount of time out of melee range. 40% is a good average. and why on earth would you not want to pop Shield block pratically on CD while tanking? The few fights where magic damage is dangerous you take MoBI and use that. IF CTC is your number 1 goal why is it a bad idea to have full CTC guaranteed 33.3% (66.6% with the 4pc) of the time.

And more importantly you see those slide bars, you can slide them to the appropriate percentage to reflect your tanking style. But even with only 1% htl uptime and 1% SB uptime you still only need 76% CTC for the eternal to out do the Austere. That's a far cry from the 90% you postulate.

As to having enough stamina, yeah sure if you were doing 25mans pre-nerf in 359s, if you really needed that extra stam, but since the nerf you don't need the demonseyes, you can just swap in stam trinkets for the fights where you need more stam or mastery/avoidance trinks where you don't, but for most fights you get enough stam off gear and from blue sockets that you don't need to gem stam.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 11:19 AM
And more importantly you see those slide bars, you can slide them to the appropriate percentage to reflect your tanking style. But even with only 1% htl uptime and 1% SB uptime you still only need 76% CTC for the eternal to out do the Austere. That's a far cry from the 90% you postulate.

Where are you coming up with that? Using the 40% and 100% at 76% the numbers are as follows: 15% dodge 15% parry 41%block plus the 5% miss gives you 76% and these numbers.





Damage Reduction Per Hit
(27.17% of landed incoming hits):
64.848%
65.298%
64.848%
64.848%
(26.31% of landed incoming hits)


Damage Reduction Per Block
(55.06% of landed incoming hits):
75.393%
75.709%
75.745%
75.393%
(54.86% of landed incoming hits)


Damage Reduction Per Critical Block
(17.77% of landed incoming hits):
85.939%
86.119%
86.642%
85.939%
(18.83% of landed incoming hits)


Average Mitigation:
74.402%
74.73%
74.721%
74.605%


Average Swing:
25,598
25,270
25,279
25,395




You dont want to pop SB on cooldown because there are dmg spikes, and movement times, during these times is when its optimal to use it because it lowers the burst dmg that you take. Total dmg taken is completely irrelevant where as burst dmg is not.

Again where is the theorycrafting of this bacondev? Where does this program and model come from? You cant just randomly plug numbers in and say its correct.

As far as hold the line, as I stated I dont play a warrior so couldn't really comment although Heroic Shannox is a terrible example and in addition it is not somethign you can rely on unless you can get 100% uptime, until then it is useless in determining which meta is better. Yes it will reduce overall dmg taken but you need to worry about guarantee's as a tank not procs.

In addition the critical block is not anything guaranteed so it further complicates things as again you are dealing with a proc, which will lead you away from gearing for a worst case scenario(which in a full ctc warrior is a string of non crit blocks)

Bigbad
11-04-2011, 12:00 PM
Exiled you don't make much sense. If you're #1 goal is capping CTC you should use fine embers. If you insist on using defenders opals which i don't agree with your goal is a balance between stamina and ctc. I like to balance my stamina with trinkets/flask/elixers but its a bit of a personal choice. Its also quite different between paladins and warriors since paladins cap much easier.

You almost always pop SB on cd unless you're not tanking anything. Predicatable damage spikes are countered by shieldwall, trinkets or other cds in general. Seeing as you don't play a warrior don't spread misinformation.
HtL uptime is close to 50% can even spike higher in the time during/after the 4piece, 40% is a conservative estimate that probably belongs in the last Tier.
As far as the metagem goes I switched fairly late when i got the 4piece T12 since i didn't think the loss of EH was worth it for the small extra bit of average damage reduction. But if you only look at average damage reduction the block meta wins out pretty fast. Then again the armor meta isn't a big EH gain so the chance of saving your ass during a worst case scenario is small. Should probably always get the block meta with the current itemlevel of gear.

Tengenstein
11-04-2011, 12:20 PM
What i did was take 12% parry and 12% dodge and 52% block and then set the sliders for htl and SB to 1%. How do you work out having a 100% uptime on shield block, i can't imagine that would happen very often.

As to the Theorycrafting of Bacondev, its fairly simple;

Damage reduction per hit takes the armour value you enter against the damage per seing you enter and generates a damage reduction based on your values for each meta. Damage per swing multiplied by damage reduction from armour

Damage reduction per block takes the numbers you put in (armour value, block chance, damage per swing) and multiples them to give you an average damage redcution per block

Damage reduction per critical block takes the numbers you put in (armour value, critical block chance, damage per swing) and multiples them to give you an average damage redcution per block.

It then calculates the average for total damage reduction for each meta based on chances of each out come and the damage reduction of each outcome. it's simple maths and if you have a calculator and some time you can follow it easily.

YOU do want to use SB on CD, becuase Spikes by their nature aren't predictable, and popping a CD after you've been run over by the truck is worth a hell of alot less than using it prememptively. If you could predict damage spikes then yeah you pop a CD, however most Damage spikes from Hits strings are unpredictable so you want to minimise the chance of that happening, Popping SB on CD while you have aggro means this can't happen 33% of the time.

However in terms of burst damage redcution neither meta gem is going to save your ass, with 0 avoidance and 20% block, 0htl and SB uptime its we're talking about an average difference in damage reduction of 0.36% difference in damage reduction.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 01:06 PM
Exiled you don't make much sense. If you're #1 goal is capping CTC you should use fine embers. If you insist on using defenders opals which i don't agree with your goal is a balance between stamina and ctc.
There is a health threshold you need to have for any encounter, in the OP's gear level they need the additional stam



You almost always pop SB on cd unless you're not tanking anything. Predicatable damage spikes are countered by shieldwall, trinkets or other cds in general. Seeing as you don't play a warrior don't spread misinformation.
HtL uptime is close to 50% can even spike higher in the time during/after the 4piece, 40% is a conservative estimate that probably belongs in the last Tier.
I wont even touch the debate with shield block, you are right I dont play a warrior, however it simple comes to total dmg reduction vs spike dmg reduction. I find it hard to believe that you have some type of other CD to contend with every predictable dmg spike, raid wide dmg going out, and healers moving, but in reality it is irrelevant because until you have full CTC you are increasing the chance you may block, so again it is TDR vs Spike dmg reduction. Same thing with HTL, until you attain full CTC the mitigation from that is completely unreliable, which means it is completely worthless to include in any mitigation numbers.


As far as the metagem goes I switched fairly late when i got the 4piece T12 since i didn't think the loss of EH was worth it for the small extra bit of average damage reduction. But if you only look at average damage reduction the block meta wins out pretty fast. Then again the armor meta isn't a big EH gain so the chance of saving your ass during a worst case scenario is small. Should probably always get the block meta with the current itemlevel of gear.
Average dmg reduction is completely worthless, TDR is 100% irrelevant to any encounter and always has been, you MUST gear and play to negate the worst case scenario or you are doing it wrong. The healers dont care if you are mitigating 1% more of the dmg over the entire fight....They DO care when you pop SB during a movement phase or when raid wide dmg is going out and your crit block chance skyrockets.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 01:14 PM
What i did was take 12% parry and 12% dodge and 52% block and then set the sliders for htl and SB to 1%. How do you work out having a 100% uptime on shield block, i can't imagine that would happen very often.
That is 81% not 76%, this shows you are not versed in the Combat table in which every boss that doesn't dual wield has a 5% miss chance. 100% uptime on shield block is equivelent to 33.3% i.e. 100% of possible uptime, worded poorly by me.



As to the Theorycrafting of Bacondev, its fairly simple;

Damage reduction per hit takes the armour value you enter against the damage per seing you enter and generates a damage reduction based on your values for each meta. Damage per swing multiplied by damage reduction from armour

Damage reduction per block takes the numbers you put in (armour value, block chance, damage per swing) and multiples them to give you an average damage redcution per block

Damage reduction per critical block takes the numbers you put in (armour value, critical block chance, damage per swing) and multiples them to give you an average damage redcution per block.

It then calculates the average for total damage reduction for each meta based on chances of each out come and the damage reduction of each outcome. it's simple maths and if you have a calculator and some time you can follow it easily.
Again this math is flawed, you are counting on a proc of HTL unless you move it to 1% to give you numbers, you are counting on using shield block poorly to gain numbers at 33.3%, and you are counting on critical block chance, RNG to determine the meta. It is all wrong, you cannot factor in any of these things because none are guaranteed to happen. If you do not understand this then you need to read the EH theory and you need to read Aggs guide Why we do what we do. Basing anything off a chance as a tank is pure and complete failure and any well versed tank will agree. You simply cannot count a chance of anything into EH which critical block chance is.


YOU do want to use SB on CD, becuase Spikes by their nature aren't predictable, and popping a CD after you've been run over by the truck is worth a hell of alot less than using it prememptively. If you could predict damage spikes then yeah you pop a CD, however most Damage spikes from Hits strings are unpredictable so you want to minimise the chance of that happening, Popping SB on CD while you have aggro means this can't happen 33% of the time.

However in terms of burst damage reduction neither meta gem is going to save your ass, with 0 avoidance and 20% block, 0htl and SB uptime its we're talking about an average difference in damage reduction of 0.36% difference in damage reduction.[/QUOTE]
Spikes are 100% predictable when you acheive full CTC, you know when they are coming there is not a fight where you don't, and if you don't then you are not paying attention and do not know the encounter mechanics very well. Every single fight you should know where burst dmg happens and where your healers will be moving and you wont get anything but instant heals for a few seconds, if you don't then you are failing as a tank.

mavfin
11-04-2011, 01:16 PM
Average dmg reduction is completely worthless, TDR is 100% irrelevant to any encounter and always has been, you MUST gear and play to negate the worst case scenario or you are doing it wrong. The healers dont care if you are mitigating 1% more of the dmg over the entire fight....They DO care when you pop SB during a movement phase or when raid wide dmg is going out and your crit block chance skyrockets.

Exactly. To put the above more simply, mastery-stacking will never max out your total damage reduction for the fight over an avoidance-heavy setup, but, you could call it SDR (Spike Damage Reduction). The more often you block, the less spikes you take. So, sims that try to minimize the total damage you take will get the wrong answers, because that's not what's needed.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 01:19 PM
Exactly. To put the above more simply, mastery-stacking will never max out your total damage reduction for the fight over an avoidance-heavy setup, but, you could call it SDR (Spike Damage Reduction). The more often you block, the less spikes you take. So, sims that try to minimize the total damage you take will get the wrong answers, because that's not what's needed.

Ohhh i like SDR, trademark it Mavfin!

Mustache
11-04-2011, 01:30 PM
All math aside, coming from a healers non-simmed experiences, I would say a little extra stam will never hurt. Its entirely likely it won't save you, but it may mean the difference between living long enough for your healer to react to damage. But like everything there is clearly a balance to it.

Tengenstein
11-04-2011, 02:47 PM
I have read Aggs guide: it was very good when EH was the be all and end all back in wrath., things have moved on a little since then, and I'm not going to react to your baiting, so i forgot to count the 5% miss (its actually 4.6% from a level 88).


150k unbuffed health is more than enough for firelands, especially after the nerf. He doesn't need the extra stam.

The math is not flawed it's showing average damage reduction and it's quite correct, the problem is you're saying that since it's not relevant in your burst time mind set its wrong. it's really not, the arithmetic is quite irrefutable, so stop with that straw man argument. I'm not saying Burst time is irrelevant, I'm saying that getting full CTC is more important than gemming stam. Gemming the eternal you sacrafice almost nothing in Burst time but make significant gains in average damage reduction. when we're being bursted Mr. Austere survives about as well as Mr, Eternal, but Mr.Eternal requires significantly less healing when not being bursted, meaning his healers can be a hell of alot more carefree about their mana.

I stand by my original point; if maximising CTC is your number 1 goal, then you gem Fine ember topazs NOT defender's demon's eyes, until you reach that goal and that for warriors the Eternal is better for over all damage reduction, and sacrafices almost nothing in burst time. 2% amour's worth what? a third of a percent damage reduction

If you care to show some maths counter, please do so.

Bigbad
11-04-2011, 02:50 PM
There is a health threshold you need to have for any encounter, in the OP's gear level they need the additional stam
That is completely something else then what you posted before. Having some sort of minimal amount of hp is reasonable but I doubt that with the recent nerfs the OP would need more then 150k hp unbuffed to start in firelands. Besides its easier to switch a stam trinket in, but as I said before stamina is a bit of a personal preference.



I wont even touch the debate with shield block, you are right I dont play a warrior, however it simple comes to total dmg reduction vs spike dmg reduction. I find it hard to believe that you have some type of other CD to contend with every predictable dmg spike, raid wide dmg going out, and healers moving, but in reality it is irrelevant because until you have full CTC you are increasing the chance you may block, so again it is TDR vs Spike dmg reduction. Same thing with HTL, until you attain full CTC the mitigation from that is completely unreliable, which means it is completely worthless to include in any mitigation numbers.
All the predictable spikes can be handled with trinkets and cds in firelands, name me one where you would want to save SB for. Not using shieldblock on cd will cause you to take additional damage significant enough to be noticable by your healers only reason to delay it is if you're not tanking something, on tankswap fights or like on shannox when riplimb is running with the spear. As warrior things are pretty reliable when you're unhittable 2/3 of the time with the 4piece and can fill the additional 1/3 of the time with a dodge on use trinket. Its far from worthless....



Average dmg reduction is completely worthless, TDR is 100% irrelevant to any encounter and always has been, you MUST gear and play to negate the worst case scenario or you are doing it wrong. The healers dont care if you are mitigating 1% more of the dmg over the entire fight....They DO care when you pop SB during a movement phase or when raid wide dmg is going out and your crit block chance skyrockets.
I think you account too much value to spike damage its a bit of a wotlk mindset. If spikedamage would be as important as you make it out to be we would be stacking stamina but that's far from optimal you would be a manasponge. I don't have problems surviving some bad rng got enough stamina. Popping shieldwall or mirror trinket is so much more effective then saving your shieldblock for something its just wrong.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 02:59 PM
No you are 100% incorrect Mastery on a shield tank is part of EH, there was no baiting at all you displayed numbers that were incorrect by ignoring part of the combat table. 150k health, maybe it is enough after the nerf, I know prior to a tank would have been wrecked with that, so I may be out of touch there but in my opinion he needs to supplement, there is no golden number there at all, so its all opinions and mine is 150k is pushing it, again post nerf it may not be I have no idea.

The math can be correct it could be done by Einstein himself, but it is completely irrelevant, your healers are spam healing you, so reducing TDR is completely irrelevant you are getting healed either way, you are not saving any healers mana at all. You are showing you do not understand the way healing is, this isnt healers in 346ilvl gear, they are spamming the tank so that 1% tdr just becomes overhealing.

You say that getting full CTC is more important than gemming stam, but then go into the meta choices, so which is it? Neither affect the CTC or stam what so ever. There is no math to be shown, none whatsoever....mastery is part of EH in cata which means EH is still king, there is no math needed it's knowledge of how it works. Again read the million threads on EH and block capping all over the place and they will all tell you the same thing, you cannot rely on RNG, relying on CB to show the Eternal is better is relying on RNG, which is 100% wrong.

Tengenstein
11-04-2011, 03:22 PM
Mastery is not part of effective health until you have reached full CTC. You certainly don't need 150k unbuffed post nerf, you can be quite comfrotable doing HCs with ~160k unbuffed now.

My healers say they'd OOM if they just spam healed. maybe they're wrong, but they seem to be keeping me up fine

YOU said "Your #1 goal should be to get full CTC" and then tell the OP to gem Stam instead of Parry. last time i checked Stam didn't add much to CTC, but parry did. I have thread quite a few threads, I don't know if they're in the millions now, but i've read a few, and generally they tell me FINE EMBER TOPAZ, not DEFENDERS DEMONEYES, they also tell me ETERNAL rather than AUSTERE. I've shown my maths, you claim theire is no math, I accept defeat, I can't counter arguments based on something that doesn't exist.

truculent
11-04-2011, 03:36 PM
I see threads like this all the time. Usually, I stay out of it but this one is getting a lot of attention, so Ill comment.

First of all, stam stacking was a result of "max amount of hits before death without healing" (quoted from a TS guide) which,also resulted in spam healing. Unless blizzard goes back to a similar format, I doubt we will ever see stam as the primary stat of choice for tanks. In fact, Blizz has clearly stated thats NOT what they want to see...

as for the OP, everything that teng has mentioend is what ive also read. His advice is sound.

Takethecake
11-04-2011, 03:42 PM
Man talk about some trash talking exiled... your repeatedly calling people in the conversation bad tanks that don't research or know what they are talking about.

All the recent warrior threads on EJ and other places support that Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond is the best meta for tanking based on overall damage reduction if you have even a decent amount of combat table coverage. Pretty much everything teng and Big are saying is exactly correct for a protection warrior and has been exactly correct for almost all of cata.

Bigbad
11-04-2011, 04:13 PM
Exiled your wording is so terrible, whole last post is full of nonsense. You're calling people out to be 100% wrong but i find your post complete bullshit no offense. "mastery is part of EH in cata which means EH is still king" That's just so terribly backwards we're stacking mastery for damage reduction and smoothing damage out not for EH. You can call mastery EH only once you're unhittable and this tier I'm only using unhittable set on baleroc. Current fights I just don't need to be unhittable to not be 2 shot. Maybe in dragonsoul we'll need mastery for our EH but for now its a really crappy argument.

Healer mana does matter a bit less then in T11 but its far from limitless and it also doesn't bring you back to full hp instantly every time. I'd say damage reduction matters, on my priest i choose between a smite, greater heal or flash heal depending on the hp of the tank. I'd even go so far as to say that stamina is nearly worthless once you got "enough" of it. With "enough" being a rather subjective term.

Not quite sure what you want to say about the metagems, sounds like a load of rubbish. Armor meta effects EH just like stamina does and both effect damage reduction just like ctc does, its not that hard to compare the advantages of both gems. Your rng rambling sounds like a bad gambler on a loosing streak....

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 10:19 PM
In terms of the defender's/health in my previous post I stated that maybe 150k is enough, I have no idea post nerf as I was way past that point when the nerf hit as were the tanks in my alt raid. Could i be wrong and 150k be more than enough? Yes I could be, however again that is more a subjective opinion.

As far as overall damage reduction, yes the eternal is better, however overall dmg reduction is irrelevant until you reach full CTC, the spike damage is what matters.

As far as mastery is EH, it is you get full CTC which is very possible then it becomes EH because you can rely on everything that hits being blocked.

I will just leave quotes from the Ej prot warrior thread backing things I stated in previous posts.

Post #1
Stamina ≥ Mastery > Parry ≥ Dodge

Your first priority when gearing up is to ensure that you have enough health to survive unavoidable burst damage. Whether it's a Mangle + Melee on Magmaw, a simultaneous Crackle + Shadowflame Breath on Nef, or any number of other nasty combos, you don't want to be vulnerable to getting one-rounded if you can help it. So be sure not to skimp on the stamina, especially if you're just starting to gear up your character for tanking.

Post #560 page 23
2. At high block amounts, Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond is technically superior to the Austere gem in terms of raw DTPS (damage taken per second), but it's a miniscule difference. Personally, I recommend the Austere gem until you're actually block capped, since it'll make those occasional unblocked hits a bit less lethal, which the Eternal gem won't do.

Post #566
Past a certain amount of block, the Eternal gem is better in terms of raw DTPS (damage taken per second).

However, if you're not block capped, the Eternal meta gem will make your damage intake spikier than the armor gem, since the unblocked hits will be bigger.

It's a miniscule difference either way, though. Personally, I'm still using the Austere gem because unblocked hits are scary enough as it is.

Post #29
I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?69903-Warrior-Critical-Block-Mechanics&p=473212#post473212) parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2
Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2
Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5
Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:
Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.

And Post #30 Xav's response
I disagree with you simply due to the fact that there are bosses in 25 player raids, normal difficulty, that can 3 shot a tank - and some bursts upwards of 100-150k damage.

Post #32
Simply not true. I know they SAID that would happen, but it just didn't. And I'm sure healers are loving them for it.

Also, as Xav said, even if the tank isn't taking a lot of damage, a tank taking predictable damage allows the healer to heal elsewhere, or even move a healer off the tank. Spikey tank still might take two healers, even if lower damage overall.

I'll admit I haven't done the numbers either, and I don't know how much avoidance 5400 combined is. But the fact that mastery doesn't diminish should make it the clear best investment. Especially since once we max out regular block, we're already halfway to making everything critical block too.

EDIT: no one is saying completely eschew avoidance. In fact, you should specifically look for pieces with avoidance/mastery(especially now that we know taunt can't miss) on them to help fill out the table. I'd be willing to bet that in the course of maxing out mastery to fill the attack table, you incidentally reach that point in avoidance where mastery become better anyway.

Tengenstein
11-04-2011, 10:38 PM
Elitistjerks have been known to makes mistakes; the Threat post you post is particularly inaccurate (I could list them if you'd like).

In you're original post you state warriors should use the Etenral once they hit 90% CTC, now you say we need 100% CTC....which is it?

If spike damage is what matters before full CTC, why do we bother with mastery at all? shouldn't we be going straight stam gems before that point?

Being that quite alot of the Protection warrior info on EJ is based of the work of our fellow tankspotters Like Bigbad, Takethecake, Airowird/WarTotem, and Kojiyama who did the maths way back, I'll stand by their previous advice to me Which i hope i have faithfully recalled.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 11:04 PM
Elitistjerks have been known to makes mistakes; the Threat post you post is particularly inaccurate (I could list them if you'd like).

In you're original post you state warriors should use the Etenral once they hit 90% CTC, now you say we need 100% CTC....which is it?

If spike damage is what matters before full CTC, why do we bother with mastery at all? shouldn't we be going straight stam gems before that point?

Being that quite alot of the Protection warrior info on EJ is based of the work of our fellow tankspotters Like Bigbad, Takethecake, Airowird/WarTotem, and Kojiyama who did the maths way back, I'll stand by their previous advice to me Which i hope i have faithfully recalled.

The threat portion of the post is irrelevant, I just put the entire post in the thread. I never said anyone needs 100% that was a poster from EJ, which everyone else was tossing out there as a source saying the Eternal is better. I also never specifically said warriors, i said at 90%(the OP is listing both a Paladin and a Warrior), however that is the number for both classes as again you cannot count CB chance because it's not reliable, sure it will reduce the TDR, but TDR doesn't matter.

Where is this math? Granted i didn't comb through the entire 24 pages or whatever I did go through at least 10-12 and have not seen it. If there is a model to show reliable DR then I have no problem saying I was wrong if I am, however this whole debate is based around TDR vs Spike dmg.

Exiledknight
11-04-2011, 11:09 PM
Not quite sure what you want to say about the metagems, sounds like a load of rubbish. Armor meta effects EH just like stamina does and both effect damage reduction just like ctc does, its not that hard to compare the advantages of both gems. Your rng rambling sounds like a bad gambler on a loosing streak....

How is it a load of rubbish? Both gems have the same amount of stam the only difference is in BV or Armor, Armor is 100% reliable to physical dmg taken, BV is not if you are not capped, so again armor is a guarantee and the BV is not until you are capped. What rng rambling are you talking about? It is simple, if it is a chance and not guaranteed then it is RNG because you have no control over this, and thus can go 10 swings in a row taking full hits which in that time the BV is 100% worthless.

klausi
11-05-2011, 01:23 AM
Post #1
Stamina ≥ Mastery > Parry ≥ Dodge

Your first priority when gearing up is to ensure that you have enough health to survive unavoidable burst damage. Whether it's a Mangle + Melee on Magmaw, a simultaneous Crackle + Shadowflame Breath on Nef, or any number of other nasty combos, you don't want to be vulnerable to getting one-rounded if you can help it. So be sure not to skimp on the stamina, especially if you're just starting to gear up your character for tanking.
Stamina comes naturally when your gear progresses. All those "unavoidable" burst damage is totally controllable: on Magmaw i always popped either shieldwall or last stand with shield block ~ 8s before impact to smooth the incoming the incoming damage out as much as possible. That covered three mangle phases and i only needed external assistance on the fourth before i would had another shieldwall ready for the fifth (well enrage was met at that point). I would have needed at least another ~20% hitpoints to survive this situation without any form of cooldown, something that was almost impossible at that gear state. And everybody who didn't pop an anti magic cooldown on crackles was an idiot, especially those crackles hitting for way above 100k when that post originally was made. Two stamina trinkets plus full stamina gemming/enchanting wouldn't have saved you from those bursts like a mirror of the broken images could once per minute. After the shield block change (-20% magical damage) you had to worry even less about "unavoidable burst damage" because we could at least reduce anything - even every breath on sinestra! - on our own.


Post #29
I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?69903-Warrior-Critical-Block-Mechanics&p=473212#post473212) parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2
Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2
Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5
Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:
Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.
He's leaning onto ComMcNeil deliberations when almost nobody had full ilvl 346 gear in december 2010! Even then they should had listened to Xav (#27) who already got it right: mastery is about smoothing incoming damage out, making it easier predictable and thus easier to heal in general. That's still one of the huge complains when it comes to heal druid tanks.

He's further not right about his priority assumption, simply because due to the scaling factors and different base damage we have to use different priority systems for different values of attackpower (modified via vengeance).


EDIT: no one is saying completely eschew avoidance. In fact, you should specifically look for pieces with avoidance/mastery(especially now that we know taunt can't miss) on them to help fill out the table. I'd be willing to bet that in the course of maxing out mastery to fill the attack table, you incidentally reach that point in avoidance where mastery become better anyway.
I say: screw posts from almost a year ago with LOTS of changes being made, gear has been drastically improved 346/59 to 391, even our mastery coefficient has been changed twice since then and as Tengenstein said don't take anything posted over there at face value. Actually the tank discussions* at EJ are inaccurate, outdated (and way worse) than threads here, on maintankadin or even on MMO-C. One of the reasons i left that board after participating for over three years with a few hundred postings...

If you're not at full ctc and more worried about worst case scenarios Austere will always come out ahead, if you're just looking for the best damage mitigation in general you really should give Eternal a try at firelands gear level.

* only Riggnaros from 'Blood Legion' made some real efforts for the DK tanking community outside of them keeping the discussion/whining about us overpowered blocktanks rolling

Bigbad
11-05-2011, 02:57 AM
however overall dmg reduction is irrelevant until you reach full CTC, the spike damage is what matters.

This is far from true with warriors its more something for paladins. For warriors specially with the 4piece 96,4% CTC is "enough". Besides spike damage isn't that dangerous anymore, only fight where there can be some nasty spike damage is on Shannox. Other spike damage is very predictable and can be countered with cds/trinkets.

Keep in mind that some of your other quotes are from T11, specially considering the metagem advice. We have more stamina in this Tier and more mastery both reducing the value of the austere gem.

Fetzie
11-05-2011, 03:39 AM
Armor is 100% reliable to physical dmg taken, BV is not if you are not capped, so again armor is a guarantee and the BV is not until you are capped

HOWEVER, if you are concerned about damage taken in the long run, the value of the Block Value wrt TDR increases with increasing CTC. You see this in my paladin guide and in Theck's maths. While warriors find it still extremely hard to hit full CTC outside of shield block, the message is the same. There will be a point at which the ESD is better than the ASD, even without being block-capped the whole time. Yes, there remains a chance that the block will do "nothing", but this chance is largely irrelevant.

We (all tanks) have buttons we can hit when we anticipate a spike - 8+ stacks of Jagged Tear with an Arcing Slash incoming, running across heroic rag with 4 stacks of burning wound and the healers moving and so on, thus these "scary moments", if unblockable or simply unluckily not blocked, are ironed out, not by the blocking, but by other means.

In Wrath we gemmed pure stamina because we needed to survive 2 hits between heals (or at least 1.5) because our avoidance was so high. I was at something crazy like 70% avoidance buffed. Nowadays our healthpools have quadrupled but the boss damage has largely stayed constant (LK25 heroic swung for 55k on a 60-65k pool, raid bosses nowadays swing for that much on a 200-220k pool). Thus the imminent danger of dying is gone.