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lunateth
10-26-2011, 11:02 AM
With current mechanics, I see every reason to reforge dodge into mastery > parry > threat stats but I see posts here saying parry should be only be 2.5% greater than dodge to get maximum benefit from Hold the Line (HtL). What information determines that percentage and how is the talent mechanics such that this would be the case?

In the Rawr app, I see it recommends reforging some parry to dodge as well (although I see the model status is "Mostly" ready for Cata)

Since dodge and parry are subject to the same diminishing returns, why would you ever choose dodge over parry? I get that some dodge enchants are just better for certain slots where there is no better alternative, but I see no reason to ever choose dodge over mastery or parry.

School me.

sifuedition
10-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Fictional example to illustrate:

If you have 5000 ratings points...

5000 dodge = 25% dodge
5000 parry = 25% parry because the dr is the same for each if you have the same amount of ratings points in each. The more you add, the more you lose to dr.

The catch is all 5000 in one or the other is much deeper into dr so...

2500 dodge + 2500 parry = 14% of each. Total of 28% avoid with the same amount of ratings. You are only half as deep into the dr.

A perfect balance will get the most combined effective avoidance because you are losing the least to dr.

For warrior and HtL, however, crit block changes the equation. If you search this site a bit, there is a graph running around that shows you how much higher parry can be and still get more damage reduction despite losing parry to dr.

kopcap
10-26-2011, 05:59 PM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/940236-Updated-Parry-Dodge-ratio-graph

sifuedition
10-26-2011, 11:42 PM
Another way to demostrate what Diminishing Returns (dr) is doing (still fictional numbers to demonstrate):

If you have 0 of any rating; add 100 dodge
1% dodge (100 rating you got 1% for 100)
0% parry

Add anther 100 dodge
1.95% dodge (200 rating..you only got 0.95% for that next 100 rating)
0% parry

You can see here, you now have 1.95% avoidance for your 200 rating. If you had added 100 parry the second time, the parry is not into the dr yet so

1% dodge (100 rating)
1% parry (100 rating)

You have 2% avoidance for the same amount of rating.

The more of a stat you add that is affected by dr, the less actual effective percent of that stat you get from the rating.

100 dodge = 1% Gained 1%
+100 dodge = 1.95% Gained 0.95%
+100 dodge = 2.75% Gained 0.8%
+100 dodge = 3.45% Gained 0.7%

You get the idea.

Saying that parry and dodge have the same diminishing returns just means that the curve of how much it is diminished at the same amount of ratings is the exact same for both. In wotlk, parry suffered a much harsher curve at the same amount of rating points.

lunateth
10-27-2011, 07:45 AM
Thanks for the replies, I guess my misunderstanding was that parry and dodge don't share DR as in combined avoidance DR like I hoped, instead they share the same RATE of DR. I guess playing a druid all these years shielded (look ma I made a pun) from the whole parry stat.

Kahmal
10-28-2011, 10:26 PM
Not trying to sound lazy but that chart gave me a headache. And despite being in Calculus I've never understood Ratio's lol. Can the spreadsheet or rawr do this for you?

Tengenstein
10-29-2011, 06:37 AM
AFAIK No they can't. Sorry if the following sounds patronizing.

okay here's what you need to know from you character sheet your dodge rating, your parry rating and your mastery

First off, add your parry and dodge rating together, mark where this is on the X axis (along the bottom). Next trace a line upwards from the the mark till you hit the coloured mastery line closest the amount of mastery rating you have (so if we had say 3400 wed mark halfways between the magenta and the babyblue curves)now trance a line across to the Y axis. mark where you cross it. that mark is your ideal parry to dodge ratio.

Ratios are fairly simple, if we had hit the y axis at 1.2, it would mean that we had a parry/didge ratio of 1.2:1 this basically means for every 1.2 parry rating we had we would want 1 dodge rating as well, or approximately 20% more parry rating than dodge rating. From there its simple reforging, if you had 1800 dodge rating, you'd want 2100 parry rating. If you had 2000 dodge rating.

Kahmal
11-13-2011, 11:01 PM
AFAIK No they can't. Sorry if the following sounds patronizing.

okay here's what you need to know from you character sheet your dodge rating, your parry rating and your mastery

First off, add your parry and dodge rating together, mark where this is on the X axis (along the bottom). Next trace a line upwards from the the mark till you hit the coloured mastery line closest the amount of mastery rating you have (so if we had say 3400 wed mark halfways between the magenta and the babyblue curves)now trance a line across to the Y axis. mark where you cross it. that mark is your ideal parry to dodge ratio.

Ratios are fairly simple, if we had hit the y axis at 1.2, it would mean that we had a parry/didge ratio of 1.2:1 this basically means for every 1.2 parry rating we had we would want 1 dodge rating as well, or approximately 20% more parry rating than dodge rating. From there its simple reforging, if you had 1800 dodge rating, you'd want 2100 parry rating. If you had 2000 dodge rating.

Are you supposed to go by your buffed parry rating btw? I just realized how much higher it gets raid buffed

Tengenstein
11-13-2011, 11:09 PM
well, yes. unless you usually fight unbuffed.

edeesis
11-14-2011, 04:51 PM
If you go to the last page of WarTotem's spreadsheet (he goes under a different name now, like A-something) there's a EHP value for Dodge and Parry. If Dodge is higher than Parry, reforge to Dodge, and vice versa.

Airowird
11-15-2011, 12:49 AM
If you go to the last page of WarTotem's spreadsheet (he goes under a different name now, like A-something) there's a EHP value for Dodge and Parry. If Dodge is higher than Parry, reforge to Dodge, and vice versa.He's talking about me, the spreadsheet is in the link below