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View Full Version : Tanking T13 Warrior Revengeabsorb.



zentok
10-22-2011, 09:35 AM
Hi there. I did some maths to this bonus from the next tier, to analyse the potential from Expertiserating and Hitrating.
I´m sure I could have done some mistakes and I hope your could correct me. (my english is not the best one sorry for that)

My formula:
[t/5-(t/5*(0.285-0.xxx))-1]*AvgDmg*0.2

t= Fighttime
5= Revenge CD
0.285= 28.5% chance of Revenge to miss at 0% Hit,Exp (14%parry, 6,5% dodge, 8% miss)
0.xxx= gained Exp and Hit (maximum at 0.285)
AvgDmg= Average damage from Revenge (I took 15k)
0.2= The 20% from the T13 bonus.
-1 = The last Revenge, which woudln´t absorb anything in the math, because the fight is over.

So i calculated an example:
Fighttime 390 seconds. 0 Exp and Hit. 15k AvgDmg.

The amount of Revenche in the fight:
390/5= 78

The amount of Revenges that doesn´t hit the target:
390/5*0.285= 22.23

Actually the hitting Revenges:
78-22.23= 55.77 -1 = 54,77

The average absorb from the bonus (took a 15k Revenge average dmg):
15000*0.2= 3000

Overallabsorb in the whole 390 seconds of fighting:
3000*54,77= 164310

Result of a math:
At a fictitious fight of 390 seconds, where a tank is permanently at the boss and gets every cooldown of Revenge, the amount of the absorbed damage is 164310.


Here are my results of the influence of Expertise and Hitrating:
Without any Hit and Exp = 164310 Absorb
Max Exp/Hit = 234000 Absorb

Exp Softcap at 0% Hit = 197730 Absorb
A absorbgain of 33420 at 781 Exptertiserating. This results in a 1285 absorb per 1 point of expertise or per 30.xxx rating. This will change after the softcap is reached.

0 EXP at 8%Hit = 186030 Absorb
A absorbgain of 21720 at 961 Hitrating. This results in ~22.60 absorb per Hitrating


So now my questions. Did I do anything wrong or are my number and formula correct?


Big Thanks and so long Zentok


P.S.: I skipped the optional misses of the boss, that wouldn´t get Revenge to procc and the be able to use, because i think is a significant low chance, that you gain 2 misses after another (swingtimer 2 seconds) and i had no clue how to add this chance of the 2 misses.

zentok
10-23-2011, 05:18 AM
Is everything right in my maths of the t13 bonus? Or does no one care about the bonuss of then next tier? :P

Charon
10-23-2011, 05:30 AM
That's pretty awesome that you took the time out to do the math. Thank you! Though honestly from the looks of things, by use of your formula (right, wrong, or otherwise.. I don't care enough to check math for a video game lol), that's the equivalent of what.. 3-6 melee hits, or a couple big ones without cds? Not too inspiring, imo. I understand that ANY mitigation helps the healers, but this just doesn't seem to be powerful enough. DK tanks get that NOW with a dozen or so death strikes if I'm not too far off my guess. In my gear, I'd have to spam death strike for an HOUR STRAIGHT lmao.

Tengenstein
10-23-2011, 06:21 AM
Zentok, its great that you've taken the time to maths this out, but for sometime now revenge has been Diet Devastate, and we don't really care about the rage saving as things tend to hit us hard enough that rage isn't an issue and Devastate just hits so much harder, that you can safely drop Imp.Rev from your build and Revenge from you action bars and not lose sleep over it. 420HPS makes this slightly more useful than Bloodcraze on a single target fight.

Airowird
10-23-2011, 07:13 AM
Hi there. I did some maths to this bonus from the next tier, to analyse the potential from Expertiserating and Hitrating.
I´m sure I could have done some mistakes and I hope your could correct me. (my english is not the best one sorry for that)

My formula:
[t/5-(t/5*(0.285-0.xxx))-1]*AvgDmg*0.2

t= Fighttime
5= Revenge CD
0.285= 28.5% chance of Revenge to miss at 0% Hit,Exp (14%parry, 6,5% dodge, 8% miss)
0.xxx= gained Exp and Hit (maximum at 0.285)
AvgDmg= Average damage from Revenge (I took 15k)
0.2= The 20% from the T13 bonus.
-1 = The last Revenge, which woudln´t absorb anything in the math, because the fight is over.
You could also just do (0.715+0.XXX)*AvgDmg to take hit/exp into account.
Secondly, you assume 5s between Revenge uses, while it realisticly is atleast 6 and with priorities closer to 7.5.
That means you do 2 Revenge every 15s instead of 3 (33.33% less HPS)


So i calculated an example:
Fighttime 390 seconds. 0 Exp and Hit. 15k AvgDmg.

The amount of Revenche in the fight:
390/7.5= 52

The average absorb from the bonus (took a 15k Revenge average dmg):
0.715*15000*0.2= 2145

Overallabsorb in the whole 390 seconds of fighting:
2145*52 = 111540

Result of a math:
At a fictitious fight of 390 seconds, where a tank is permanently at the boss and gets every cooldown of Revenge, the amount of the absorbed damage is 111540. The HPS gain is 286.Fixed the numbers in bold/italic for you.

Hit & Expertise:
2 Expertise (pre-softcap) = 1% Hit = 30 absorb * 52 attacks = 1560 extra absorb (4HPS)

1 Hit Rating = 1%Hit / 120.1088 => 12.988 absorb (0.0333 HPS)
1 Exp Rating = 2 Exp / (2*30.0272) => 25.976 (0.0666 HPS)

Maxing out hit/exp you can hit about 400 HPS with 15k Revenges, so even in full heroic gear and trying to get Revenge in more, you'll be lucky to hit 500 HPS over an entire fight. Unfortunately, this a) isn't enough to make speccing into Imp Revenge viable again, b) The shield is fluctuating between non-connects, normals and crits, making it unreliable (and we don't want that) and c)is reduced to a fraction of that number in usefulness, because most of the shields will be wasted once healers top you up after a spike.
The only time it is useful will be if you actually would have died from <3k overkill on a boss and even then it has to happen frequently enough for you to consider dropping 2 talent points somewhere else (and the awesome Glyph of Slam!) just to complicate your rotation more. Personally, I will not be looking towards getting this specific bonus, but instead aim for stat allocation and 'simply' run around with a completely unused set bonus if the set pieces happen to actually be the optimal pieces for me (and drop before I take up temporary upgrades)

So to answer your second post:
1) Your forgot GCD rotation & priorities (SS & BnT > Rend)
2) We care about it being something useful rather than what it is now.

zentok
10-24-2011, 12:00 AM
Thanks @ Airowird.

I know that the bonus ist not useful at all (well anicce to have but the gain is really low), even with my wrong numbers: (234000-164310)/390= 178.69hps increase with expertise and hitcap. I just wanted to see if my maths were correct, because my last time I used to math in WoW was in Burnigng Crusade. (longtime inactivity)

Tengenstein
10-24-2011, 05:25 AM
it's not that the bonus is not useful, the Abiltiy it's tied to isn't either.

Airowird
10-24-2011, 07:04 AM
it's not that the bonus is not useful, the Abiltiy it's tied to isn't either.This.

I don't even have it on my main bar anymore (it's in a corner next to Slam & Shattering Throw), so if I ever get 2pT13 it'll be completely useless to me.

swelt
12-22-2011, 06:40 AM
So now people have experienced this, how is it looking? I have to be honest, I totally forgot about the bonus and didn't put revenge back on my bars (let alone spec into improved revenge). Is it worth doing either or both of those things?

Dreadski
12-22-2011, 07:06 AM
Wow, I just saw how much avg damage both abilities do in skada, I never thought to look since coming back to the game. Guess it's time to un-talent revenge...Seems pointless now. 2pc is definitely lackluster and if available I'd instead use 2pc heroic t12. However at 4pc the set becomes op at 384.

swelt
12-22-2011, 07:57 AM
Well that's just it: 4 pc is awesome, there are times in every encounter where I think it's valuable and I can't see myself taking it off. So there's a 2 pc bonus which is 'some survival' and which is essentially free, and there are plenty of bosses that do hit quite hard (at least in 25 man, the 10 man ones seem a bit wimpy).

Outbackjack
12-22-2011, 08:37 AM
I've been trying it out and was gonna look at my logs tonight to see what I'm getting over the course of a fight. It still seems underwhelming and not worth speccing into Improved Revenge.

Tengenstein
12-22-2011, 09:11 AM
I'm in some weird place that the DPE of Rev and Dev are about the same at max vengeance and recently acquired the two piece, so I went in to DS10 last night and according WoL on the first 5 boss kills it was making up 1.1% of my healing recieved with an average absorb of 3.1k.

Pruke
12-22-2011, 10:14 AM
I am seeing the same thing as Teng. Anyhow I also checked some armories of other warriors like Xav and noticed they are specing into imp revenge. Not enough to go on atm.

Outbackjack
12-22-2011, 10:44 AM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-atwr0dfzgg7g60u8/details/1/

I'm averaging a 1.8k shield from the absorb Shield of Fury (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=105909) without having Improved Revenge in my spec. Although surprisingly my Revenge average hit is about 10k compared to my Devastate average hit of 12k. I was expecting a much bigger divide.

Tengenstein
12-22-2011, 11:28 AM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-atwr0dfzgg7g60u8/details/1/

I'm averaging a 1.8k shield from the absorb Shield of Fury (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=105909) without having Improved Revenge in my spec. Although surprisingly my Revenge average hit is about 10k compared to my Devastate average hit of 12k. I was expecting a much bigger divide.

The difference is in in DPE not the hits: with the talent Rev may hit harder, but Dev crits 20% more often, leading to a much bigger difference that simply looking at the damage on a hit by hit basis. This is even further pronounced with Deep wounds.

gom
12-26-2011, 07:26 AM
I'd like to quote Airowird on that:




a) isn't enough to make speccing into Imp Revenge viable again
b) The shield is fluctuating between non-connects, normals and crits, making it unreliable (and we don't want that)
c)is reduced to a fraction of that number in usefulness, because most of the shields will be wasted once healers top you up after a spike



Anyhow I also checked some armories of other warriors like Xav and noticed they are specing into imp revenge.

It's "dangerous" to assume revenge would be ok because a tank from a pro guild does spec into revenge. They are progressing at Spine so they cut 2-3 healers to meet the dps check. so maybe the 2PC comes in handy for such a situation but that does not mean its good for everyone

I'd like to see some hps numbers though with every self heal mechanic which we can get in this tier: 2PC, Souldrinker, Blood Craze, Mending.

That would be interesting.

Bigbad
12-26-2011, 07:47 AM
I never dropped 2/2 improved revenge for 2/2 thunderstruck, the dps gain from it is fairly minimal and that's considering you only have single target fights and no rageproblems. Don't see why you wouldn't take improved revenge unless you really would want safeguard and cruelty at the same time.

truculent
12-26-2011, 08:06 AM
this is the first time Ive spec'd into imp rev the entire xpac. Im strongly considering specing out of it again. I mean.... 180k-ish health over the course of a fight is simply trival. DPS gains from [insert any dps talent here] has a lot more value over the course of an entire fight IMO.

Bigbad
12-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Which talent would you grab then? I run a 8/2/31 spec without thunderstruck and safeguard. The only dps talent i can take instead of improved revenge is thunderstruck(very minor dps increase) and for utility safeguard can be good for specific fights.

Bodasafa
12-27-2011, 05:32 AM
Imp revenge is good for an aoe tank spec.

I still have it in my single target spec, I should probably move those points else where, but honestly once you get the core talents in it hardly matters where you put the last few points, unless you have a specific utility job in mind for a fight. Honestly I'm not seeing any of those in DS normal.

The absorb from the 2pc is a shameful 3k ish on average. I pop revenge when its up to get sword an board procs and on progression when I feel every little bit of mitigation will help, though it probably is not doing much.

Its a lackluster tier bonus, but since 4pc is pretty much required for raid wall you might as well squeeze a few revenges in there.

Airowird
12-27-2011, 07:24 AM
Actually, both Imp Revenge and Thunderstruck are great for AoE tanking, the major difference for single target is that Thunderstruck boosts abilities you would otherwise use (Rend+TC) while Imp Rev only means you need to actually put Rev on your bars.

I think that those hardcore tanks picking up Revenge either do so because they're used to playing with it (without loss of performance vs not having it on their bars) or simply because progress fights they are doing simply require the most damage reduction/prevention they can afford losing DPS for. I think most tanks are of the latter mindset once they got 2p, with the idea that "a bit of absorbs help me more than 1% extra DPS, especially in fight where 7 people got a Legendary"

Raiju
12-27-2011, 04:57 PM
Ok guys help me out here, what am I missing. Looking through many logs I see revenge doing more damage than devastate, for example, random ultraxion kill, specced into imp revenge and deep wounds:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-coedevs8ivpm56nz/details/13/?s=6763&e=7119

Devastate: 768006 / (36+16) = 14769
Revenge: 396724 / 26 = 15259

Here a H Morchok parse from Kar, inner sanctum, he is also specced improved revenge:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zha01d7hu4bmnlyc/details/23/?s=710&e=1103

Devastate: 407682 / (23 +7) = 13589
Revenge: 475628 / (24 +2) =18293


I've gone through many kills and I usually see revenge on top, or both really close. Is it just a matter of a small sample size, or am I calculating average ability damage wrong ( total ability damage / (hits + crits) ?

Tengenstein
12-27-2011, 06:47 PM
You're omitting the damage from deep wounds. Every time you crit you get an extra 48% weapon damage, that as its a bleed, isn't affected by armour, and yes your sample size is pathetic. another factor to be aware of is that on taunt swap fights you can spend a fair amount of time not tanking, with low vengeance which can pull down Dev's average damage even though Dev doesn't scale as nicely with AP as revenge does. However the two can be very close fully buffed whilst at high vengeance in certain gear setups, ideally you'd need to sim it get a proper idea of which has the higher Damage Per Execute.

Going off your armoury link you have an unbuffed weapon damage of 3147.5 so 48% of that is 1510.8 per crit of extra damage. which when we add it on to your figures ups your DPE for Dev to 15233.9ish. Only 16 damage behind unbuffed, so even a small increase (Kings, Bleed damage, physical damage) would prolly give your Dev enough to beat dev's damage. Now this is as i've said a poor sample set, Revenge didn't crit at all and while it doesn't ahve a high crit chance, it does have some etc, hopefully you can see what's happened with your numbers.

Bigbad
12-28-2011, 03:05 AM
If you want to make a somewhat accurate comparison between revenge and devastate take a fight where you are almost always at full vengeance, zon'ozz or ultraxion for example. Then take the normal hit values add 8% crit for revenge and 28% crit for devastate this should take away most of the RNG of a small sample size, take your deep wounds damage and divide it by the number of crits so you get the deep wounds damage for 1 crit, add that up as well. When I last played around with the numbers revenge was slightly better but devastate very close behind it on damage.

When i look at your 2 examples, the first one is missing revenge crits and both don't include deep wounds.

kopcap
12-28-2011, 03:54 AM
Another thing that escapes most ppl is that Revenge effectively has a 6 sec cooldown. And in reality it is used even less frequent than that. Whatever DPE advantage it has over Devastate, dissipates ones you divide it by 6 sec. Your Rev hits 600 harder than Dev? Fine, thats an extra 100 dps from Imp Revenge, or 50 dps per talent point. When most of our other DPS talents are around 300 dps per point and are fully automatic, no keys to press or procs to watch.