View Full Version : Tanking Please don't laugh at us =/

10-21-2011, 10:16 PM
So, my humble little guild is actually doing relatively well relative to the other guilds on a dying server. We are stuck on reg Rag. The other officers and I think we know what some of our biggest issues are but we could use some help confirming that. Parsing logs is new to me and I am not sure I am seeing everything I should/can. Would anyone mind looking and giving an opinion on how badly we are failing? What are our weak points.

(Not sure I am linking this correctly either. If not, advice on the best way to link logs is appreciated)


Thanks in advance

10-22-2011, 03:46 AM
Ok, firstly while logs are useful for nitty gritty detail they don't give much bacground. Now i see here you have 11 attempts put in. Are these just the ones you recorded or were there previous ones? My guild spent about 50 attempts before we downed him the first time just for comparison statistic. Anyway, from the looks of your logs people are still getting a feel for the fight. While this is tedious, unfortunately it's nescacary, there is a LOT going on at once. I'll go through a few things I saw that were pure mental mistakes.

On a few attempts i saw a supernova go off. Now, i know this phase can get VERY hectic. Quite simply there is no room for improvisation in a transition phase. Not because it's bad to save your raids ass, but if somebody changes the way they react to a situation somebody else may decide to rely on them to do it the same way everytime and then you get a sneaky little guy getting to the hammer=Raid go boom. For Each position of the hammer you HAVE to make assignments of what is going to happen and when.

And don't forget that for the first transition you have to leave a tank with nothing to do since he will be preocupied for the second transition. If it helps your raid to practice assignments have that tank literally do nothing for the first transition just so DPS don't use that extra 8k dps or stun (depending on your tank) as a crutch and then parish to the next phase transition because the tank was tied up with the big adds doing his job. Now short of telling you my guilds full strategy (not a state secret, just timely and my gramar is bad enough without me explaining a WHOLE boss fight) I can't give to much advice on how to position your tanks. But whichever you chose for dealing with a small add both times, i would go for the one who will be able to tie up an add longest. As a prot warrior I have a nasty aray of stuns at my disposal, so what my guild has me do is go to the add farthest from the hammer if it's place on the right or to the add on the far right if it's place in middle or left. My function is to: Stun,DPS,Stun,DPS,Stun,DPS. If i do it right, it never gets to the lava and i'm sitting there very busy as my raid finishes and come to finish mine off and stack for seeds phase.

I see a lot of damage to lava trap eruption, now as the tank i'm not sure exactly how that particular mechanic is dealt with but i do know there are ways of minimizing it's damage. I can ask my guild about later today if you feel this would be helpful.

I also see damage taken to Engulfing Flame. You may need to emphasise that backpedaling is not a acceptable raid behaivior, nor is keybord turning. Right click, strafe.

I hope I was helpful in some way, if you are more curious about a specific mechanic feel free to ask.

10-22-2011, 05:38 AM
Contrary to Greogsaurous's post, both tanks should be well able to handle both a son of flame and a Lava Scion, we have both tanks pick up one Scion each and enjoy the additional DPS gained from talking damage to help out on the Sons.

What I see is a lack of healing during transitions and alot of people failing at moving out of stuff, you can back peddle out of engulfs if you position correctly before it lands (like hell am I gonna risk turning my back to the boss) and there's a second or two between it landing and it going off. People are getting hit by lava waves, that just isn't acceptable, its a heavy hit, a knock back and a dot to dispel, but its blood easy to avoid since it's so predictable. at one point it looks like someone got knocked backwards into a trap, shouldn't be too hard for people to know that there's an knock back and not stand in front of crap. Derek and Erestozero seem particularly bad on this front.

How we do the transitions is almost not the best way but is probably the easiest way for simple folk to understand (yeah we're simple folk) we number the adds 1-8 regardless of where the hammer lands and assign each tank and DPS to one, and two healers to another (smite priests/telluric currents/holy shocks holly pallies have 2 stuns), generally we have the tanks on 1&7 the bustiest DPS on 2, and the healers on 8 (with the non DPS healer going to heal the other side) this does make the transitions punishing if your raid lacks burst or control Affliction locks can be kinda sucky. However after teach persons assigned add is dead we totally improvise. For the second, tanks pick up 1 scion each son1 or 8 is stun locked dropped low but not killed and once he other sons are dead the DPS unload on one of the scions then the other. 1 dps (usually our DK) is assigned to kill the Son left up just before reg gets bored and resurfaces.

10-22-2011, 12:19 PM
Thanks both of you for the feedback. What you are seeing is amazing. I guess I need to spend a lot more time with WoL. While I see overall numbers, I can't see how you identify what is happening during certain phases etc.

Just to touch on the points you both have made. We are trying to have 1 tank on each side during the second transition to pick up a scion each and still down their assigned son. My bear co-tank seems to have a different idea how to do this as he doesn't seem to be consistent on which son he is grabbing...which sometimes leads to one getting through.

Also, Derek and Erestorzero were what prompted this post. They are both in South America. They deal with higher than average latency, lag spikes and disconnects. While we enjoy raiding with them, they are starting to feel like a liability. They sometimes lag and stand in engulfing flames, or miss a son, or Derek as the holy priest may not pop levitate in time on the traps, or...the list goes on. It's a hard position to be in.

As to the 11 attempts, those are from one night. We have been clearing to Rag on the first raid night and then working one or two nights exclusively on Rag each week. We have been doing this now for three or four weeks. This seems way too long to get this fight down on normal.

I also find it interesting nobody mentioned our damage done. For the gear we have, I have felt our damage is not where it should be. On single tank fights, I go ret and usually top the meters in less gear than our ms dps. Do we have enough dps to even get through phase 3? We have gotten there several times but the closest we have been was 17% and that was juggling 3 meteors for a while. I realize that taking the names from the logs and then armorying them is a lot to ask, so I didnt' really expect that anyone would. Just some feedback on if our overall dps is another outstanding issue would be awesome.

10-22-2011, 12:31 PM
I raid from south america and i dont DC or have a unacceptable ping (mine ranges from 150-250). You can tell them to buy real computers and a proper internet conection if they want to continue raiding because its not a issue.
I agree with teng heartly on tanks grabbing son of flames on transactions. A tank should be able to solo the first son of flame closest to the hammer while he picks up his add on the second transaction without a problem whatsoever. My guild only downed reg rag when we assigned one fixed add for each of us (depending on hammer positioning it changes). While capability of improvisation is good when someone screws something up, to not lose the attempt, i think you will never down rag while your raid atacks whichever son they like (aka your bear tank has to has a assigned add and stick to it).

10-22-2011, 01:25 PM
I raided with a quartet of Namibians in wrath, and still play with 2 of them on a regular basis they have MS of about 500-800, Try digging up the leatrix fix, it's good for those of us who aren't technically minded and can cut lag by half. However at the end of the day if there's lag is killing you, it's killing you and you have to make the decision to either struggle on with them and hope you can effectively 8 an half man the the encounter or tell them that they can either fix the problem or you'll have to replace them.

The bear needs to stick to the plan and to his assigned son, the point is to sort your job and then help other people with theirs, if you fuck up your job helping someone else it amounts to the same thing but just confuses the issue of what's actually going wrong.

Rag is a Harder fight than any of the other fights in Firleands, its alot more complex and can't just be pushed over with excessive DPS like the other FL encounters, it requires everyone to be doing it right, so the above points are really the real problem. Your raid DPS is about 6k behind ours on a similar length fight

10-22-2011, 01:58 PM
Soryy, I sort of hinted at it but i guess having one tank pick up both Scion's is unique to my guilds strategy. We just find it easier to do it this way since it minimizes possible raid damage. Anyway, the point of haveing a tank Solo a Son of FLame (btw thanks Teng for naming them, i couldn't remember their names for the life of me) is that it prolongs the transition phase giving everybody time to get where they need to be. It's whatever float your boat i guess.
And the point of strafing is that you can move at normal speed without expsoing your back, making it just simpler if everybody knows how to do so.

Well, actually, it's not as hard as you would think to read a log, there are some fight mechanics that quite simply just shouldn't be listed. Forr esample Supernova, obviously somebody failed to get their add and while that won't ALWAYS kill you, it most certainly leadst to a wipe 99% of the time.

Well, while their mobility in Bear is nothing compared to that of a warrior, if he's having trouble getting his Scion and then getting to his Son of Flame he COULD always try a bit of stance dancing? I'm not 100% up to date on Bear and Cat abilities, but i believe he can use Skull Bash(?) to charge his Scion, then (a macro would be good for this) pop: Barkskin, Cat form, kittty pounce, Bear Form, and there you go, from the middle to the side of the room in 3 seconds flat. Now this may a bit on the unescacary side, I supose he could also just taunt his Scion and then charge over to his Son, but the point is: Is he Playing his class to it's potential or just running around like a pally (great for avoiding a beating, not so great for winning a foot race)

You have BR's? You wouldn't happen to be form Gurubashi would you? But yeah, we had a Brazilian Hunter running with us for a long time, for the life of him, he COULD not do tornedos on Alysrazor. It is a tough position to be in.

Well, going down the list of your raid comp:
Ultraviolet: He's iLvL 370, that's a little odd considering he doesn't have much competition for gear. What i HIGHLY recomend for the purpsoe of advancing your guild, with GB funds if you must, get him some Obsidien Cleavers. Also yell at him for not having a head Enchant. And is his T12 chest a upgrade from hsit T11? (idk, my DK is only lvl 78)
Mmamba: Looks like he's doing good gear wise.
Amator: Now, if he's doing great DPS and really loves his class, cool, otherwise i believe he's suposed to be Marksmanship?
Erestozero: ^diddo^
Khupp: Now, on Battle.net he has some vicious weapons equipped. Ther rest is Raid gear..... this is very puzzling to me. I don't want to go accusing him of being a baddie.... but.... yeah..... ummm..... anyways....
(My guilds MM hunter is 372 and easily busts 20k on Rag, I actually think he does quite a bit more than that, just for statistical comparison.)
Shan: Should be doing good heals.
Sifupally: That guy totally blows, idk what he thinks he's doing with his gear...... JK, i know that's you. Grats on those shoulders, i had to go into FL with my T11 POS shoulders. I know tanking Rag can be bumpy for a 368 tank, but you should be ok. Look at the Gem in your boots...?
Derek: Unenchanted Chest peice? Other than that i know absolutely jack didly about priests other than that I hate seeing a Disc in PVP, it genrally means I'm about to die a slow, prolonged, painful death.
Healzic: isn't in his Healing Geat ATM, couldn't tell you anything. Other than that Horde is far superior to the Aliance....... =D
Briiiya: In prot gear instead of Fury, pretty decent tank set. But she forgot that she's a warrior and she has HOTL and that her parry should be higher than her dodge by at least 2%.

Well, that concludes my analyzing of your raid composition. I would add that if any of those hunters have alts that are 85 or close *cough* get a Mage *cough* you should ask them to try to get it geared and into your raid instead of their hunter. Here's why: 3 people competing for the exact soame gear is unfair and just hurts the raid. Half your raid going for ONE tier token (3 hunters, 1 sham, 1 war) your raid is going to suffer from this a lot. Especially when you progress to heroic. But even just on Normal. There happen to be ONE plate DPS peice for shoulders... it's Tier. This means in a lot of cases, Plate DPS are given their Tier Shoulders above everone else just because all other players ate least have other viable upgrades in FL bosses. Now this is just the concensus our guild came to, no I wasn't happy about it, but it was fair. Not saying you should do this or bring it up for that matter if it might cause problems in your guild.

Anyway, good luck on Rag, hope you found some useful tidbits here, something i would HIHGLY recoment is aking all of your raid members to go RESEARCH their class (Tankspot, Elitist Jersk, ect...). Reguardless of how well they are doing, they may learn something or pick up a few tricks, you never know.

10-22-2011, 05:18 PM
her parry should be higher than her dodge by at least 2%.

Stop with the arbitary percentage, parry should not be 2% higher than dodge except for a very specific balance point of mastery dodge and parry. Either give it in ratings or just stop spreading disinformation.

10-22-2011, 06:07 PM
From what i could find on the logs you had, all of your dps is low. It isn't so low that the fight is insurmountable, but, y'all are making it so that you have very little leeway with mechanics. I noticed that a few of your raiders are not fully enchanted, in substandard gear, or in pvp gear( pvp is full set so imma assume it was a pvp logout). i can respect not being a stickler for full chants /optimal specs, this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun. However, by not having everyone up to their best, your overall damage, avoidance, heals, etc. will suffer.

Overall, raid awareness seems to be doing you guys in the most. It helps to have someone call hammers (left, right, center) and transition splits (the same). It also helps to call when traps are being sprung.

Having two stackpoints for seeds help with engulfing flame. We have one on the lip for our main stackpoint, and one just far enough away form the lip and to the side to avoid flames on the lip and possible center hammer during it. Something to watch out for during seeds is where Rags health is. Pushing a transition during a seed will wipe you. If you have a seed and are near phase transition (70%/40%), stop dps on the boss until the adds are down.

I have heard the number system for adds, we use a zone approach. The dps is split between the left and right by raid group, with ranged always taking the furthest away. We also have 2 specific people to cover their respective short sides. For scions, we have one tank pick up both of them while the other stuns/dps the sons and shifts to Rag. One scion is usually dead before the first swap.

Once yall can consistently push p3, just we wary of the ground, make sure everyone does their best to kite the meteors, hero/warp/lust at 25-30%, and collect loot. Limiting the damage you take the the first two phases facilitate this.

10-22-2011, 11:15 PM
Stop with the arbitary percentage, parry should not be 2% higher than dodge except for a very specific balance point of mastery dodge and parry. Either give it in ratings or just stop spreading disinformation.

Ok, i have no idea what you are talking about, elaborate please. I genreally tell people 2-3% and i would hate to be misleading them. This is always what I've heard and i can't remember anything to the contrary until now. If i misunderstood something that more than possible, i'm only human. So what's up?

10-23-2011, 01:27 AM
2-3% is not very accurate but it does the job, seems like sound advice to me. If you want to be accurate just link em this graph http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/118/graph3t.jpg Depending on your total avoidance ratings and your mastery rating it gives the optimal ratio between parry/dodge. There also is another graph that includes unhittable but couldn't find it.

10-23-2011, 11:12 AM
Thanks everyone for the time and the suggestions. We'll process all this as best we can.

10-28-2011, 09:54 AM
Spent another night like the usual. Half of Wednesday after getting to Rag and half of Thursday. Mid way we swapped the two from S. America reluctantly...and got our first kill three pulls later. Bittersweet it is.

10-28-2011, 10:03 AM
Congratulations. As with all bosses it will get easier each time and you'll get to the point, maybe even next week, where you bring in your 2 S.American friends - maybe one at a time.

When we got our first Rag kill, I was substituted in to heal on my Pally for another healer and another new guild member a DK was brought in for a hunter. That was 6 weeks ago and now both the players we subbed for have killed Rag several times.

Sometimes, you just need that first kill to breach the damn.

Congrats again.

10-28-2011, 10:31 AM
Theotherone is right, Our first kill consisted of the pick of my guildies. who'd spent 13 hours wiping on it to learn, last night it died with somone who'd been there twice, someone who'd never been there, a pug and an offspec tank and a tank who joined us the week before.