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Unforgivein
10-20-2011, 03:45 PM
First off, this post is not directed to only damage only. it has to do with all roles in the PVE area of wow. I just made it damage because I'm forced to pick one.

me and a buddy are trying to finish this debate on which is better. were trying to see with the raiders of FL which is better sense it just keeps on repeating. would like your guys opinions and personal experiences. PVE Only

He says:
key binding is no faster then clicking. Even key binders have to look down at there keyboard during a boss fight.

Me:
I say that your more environmentally aware of your surroundings allowing you to see more of whats going on in the fight instead of looking at where my mouse is at that moment in time.

What are your personal opinions on this, and make sure your facts are correct.

Mustache
10-20-2011, 03:51 PM
There is no right answer, but I can say for a fact my muscle memory allows me to ignore looking at the keyboard. If thats not possible for you, mouse would work just fine. Personally for me, keybindings outperform mouse every time simply due to how familiar I am with my keyboard and layout, and having the same bindings for so long, but I think a combination is still appropriate, using mouse for longer CD's (Shield Wall, Tranquility, etc.)

Bovinity
10-20-2011, 03:52 PM
What are your personal opinions on this, and make sure your facts are correct.

Wat?

Fetzie
10-20-2011, 03:59 PM
A person that clicks his or her abilities will move out of fire slower due to either moving completely with WASD or needing to move the mouse away from the action bar to the general world area of the UI. If they use the mouse to turn as well as click, they cannot perform spells while moving (which can be the cause of wipes in heroic modes, especially rag where you need every point of damage you can produce).

Unforgivein
10-20-2011, 04:00 PM
Wat?[/COLOR]

Didn't want anyone saying oh clickers suck.. When you have nothing to back it up..Don't see how it could be explained any other way. "No say dumb things" i guess..

Destruyen
10-20-2011, 04:01 PM
He says:
key binding is no faster then clicking. Even key binders have to look down at there keyboard during a boss fight.

that's a terrible keybinder if they have to do that....

Fetzie
10-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Yeah, the point of keybinding is that you can play like you touch-type. Without looking at the keyboard.

leethaxor
10-20-2011, 07:03 PM
Using keybinds is a lot like 'touch typing' namely the practice of typing with out looking at the keyboard.

If you had say a visual keyboard which you can make in windows. And spent days and hours practicing with it. You would not (this is a fact) be as fast at typing as somebody who can touch type. Simply because they are limited with the number of objects touching the keyboard.

A clicker only has his mouse. His mouse must move to the key in question then click it, then move to the next key in question. No matter how good he gets, he will have to do that. While a touch typist can press a key and as his finger removes it self from the key his next finger can already be half way to the next key.

Now. I have set myself up for the argument that "You are limited by the GCD in wow, you can only use an ability every 1 to 1.5 seconds (depending on character haste level)." This is correct. But, there are a lot of abilites off the GCD, also the ability to start pressing a key before the GCD has ended is important.

Why is it important? Assuming you haven't watched this video by Kripparrian. If you start spamming after the GCD has ended, you will not execute your ability until after the GCD has ended BUT after the server receives the information that your GCD has ended. This means you can lose 100 to 300 ms of up time every time you use an ability.

Over a 4 minutes 30 second fight you can see some where in the 200 GCD range. Losing say 200ms between abilities is 40 seconds of up time. That means the boss gets pulled, and you stand still for 40 seconds doing nothing. I can literally get disconnected, end wow, and log back into the game in less time then you waste doing that.


He says:
key binding is no faster then clicking. Even key binders have to look down at there keyboard during a boss fight.
This is incorrect. It is a fact. Watch blood legion's stream the PTR you will notice the streamer has his eyes fixed on the screen of his computer not looking down at his keyboard. Nor will s/he look at this actionbars.

A clicker needs to look at his action bars. I would like to see a clicker correctly execute his/her 'rotation' blinded folded. They simply cannot. A clicker needs to look where his cursor is going so that he can click his next ability.

Looking at your action bars prevents him/her from looking around, being visually aware of his surroundings. If you have to look at your bars every 1.5 seconds then you are not looking at your character, your health bars, your debuffs, the boss, the tank, etc.

A keybind'er never takes his eyes off of his surroundings. He doesn't need to look at his bars because he knows where his abilities are, by touch and touch alone. For cool down management he looks at his bars once every 5 to 10 seconds.


Any questions?

Tengenstein
10-20-2011, 08:18 PM
I can press 5 keybinds on my left hand, 3 keybinds on right, and click 1 more keybind; Clicking 9 buttons at once is kinda hard unless you're real fast and precise with the mouse. because there comes a time in a warriors llife that you need to taunt, intervene the co-tank, pop recklessness, shieldblock, inner rage, shield slam, heroic strike, interupt and rallying cry to save the the raid. For the most part whatever you can click i can click too, and while we're clicking i can use my keybinds aswell

I don't look down at my key board (even thought i can't touch type) I can touch tank, and yes you may have to look down when you first start but you get out the habit of it soon enough, like you had to look at your feet the first time you learnd to waltz

You're mates wrong.

leethaxor
10-20-2011, 08:38 PM
yes you may have to look down when you first start but you get out the habit of it soon enough, like you had to look at your feet the first time you learnd to waltz.

Practice makes prefect

Bigbad
10-21-2011, 01:31 AM
I use my left hand on the keyboard and the right one on the mouse, but its a razarnaga with thumbpad. Mostly using keybinds as its just better and sometimes clicking a thing here or there.

woodyman
10-21-2011, 02:53 AM
As someone who can touch type and is a prot warrior tank id like to see how any clicker could keep up with mouse turns / selecting targets. then chaining multiple abilities with F keys while doing my standard rotation

and any good keyboard user does not need to look at the keyboard.

Destruyen
10-21-2011, 03:16 AM
the only thing i click is ground mount, tranquility, and mark of the wild. i don't have to look down for any of my keybinds (naga + nostromo n52).

sifuedition
10-21-2011, 06:19 AM
Two key differences that have already been pointed out:

1. Abilities off the gcd. Most clockers tend to macro heroic strike or trinkets etc to other abilities where many keybinders do not. Mouse travel time and accuracy make it inefficient to have to click both where I can use two fingers at the same time to pop taunt + shield block, etc. Most clickers also keyboard turn which is an issue for directional abilities (usually not heals). Every person I knew who struggled with sindragosa's aoe were clickers (NOT the same as saying most clickers had issues).

2. Eye movement. Clicking means your eyes have to go to your bars minimum of every 1.5 seconds. Keybinds memorize by touch. Yes, when you first keybind you will lose performance. Only until you develop muscle memory.

sifuedition
10-21-2011, 10:52 AM
Just to be clear, I realized I left several unfinished thoughts there.

Healing - click casting your heals is better IMO. That means a healer is frequently moving via keyboard. Since very few heals are directional (here's looking at you light of dawn) this is ok 98% of the time. Even here, I keybind non-heals. Tree of life, trinket etc. Pressing a keybind for natures swiftness with my mouse ALREADY over the target of that heal so it truly is almost instant has been the difference before.

The point in not macro'ing abilities off the gcd is better control. You can macro your dps trink for max uptime...or manually control it for use during heroism. And if you click it instead of keybind it, you lose dps time with those buffs during mouse movement frequently.

leethaxor
10-21-2011, 10:59 AM
Just to be clear, I realized I left several unfinished thoughts there.

Healing - click casting your heals is better IMO.
Click player
Move mouse all the way across the your screen
Click heal
Start casting heal
Player dies
Cast Interrupted because player is dead.

Healers aim for uptime also. The ability to mouse over a unit a frame and start casting AS SOON AS POSSIBLE can save lives.


Pressing a keybind for natures swiftness with my mouse ALREADY over the target of that heal so it truly is almost instant has been the difference before.

Thank you for giving me an example of why you want to keybind your heals.

Aggathon
10-21-2011, 11:19 AM
Disclaimer: I didn't really read the other posts here, so I might be repeating things. I went straight from "contemplative interesting discussion" to nerd rage.

There is a right answer... CLICKING IS BAD. DO NOT CLICK... EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Healers can get away with a "kind of clicking" by using keybinds, mouseover macros, and clique, but that's as close as you get, and clicking on a spell takes way more time and effort than just pressing keys.



He says:
key binding is no faster then clicking. Even key binders have to look down at there keyboard during a boss fight.

This is just a grossly inaccurate statement. I never look at my keyboard, ever, and I have everything bound. I mean... maybe if you still have to look at your hands when you type, but the muscle memory for 12345 qefzvgt `, etc. etc. etc. etc. is there. There is no looking, you instantly queue up your next spell, no down time, no moving your mouse, no taking your eyes off what you need to to be raid aware. AND mouse moving is faster, if you keybind, you just click and move, no keyboard turning, no repositioning your mouse, you're just there. And in raid environments where you can get clipped by things (leaping flames on domo, engulfing flames on rag) by just being a half second off, keybinding is way preferred.



Me:
I say that your more environmentally aware of your surroundings allowing you to see more of whats going on in the fight instead of looking at where my mouse is at that moment in time.

This is accurate




What are your personal opinions on this, and make sure your facts are correct.
This made me giggle a little, opinions are not facts. BUT the FACT of the matter is, keybinding is better. You might be able to do "acceptable" damage or healing, or "acceptable" raid awareness etc. if you're just a REALLY GOOD CLICKER, but you're not going be at the best possible performance levels. Period. Keybinds, moving with your mouse, NOT CLICKING AND NOT KEYBOARD TURNING, flat out will make you a better raider. Period. Fact.

Now you might see a temporary drop in performance when switching from clicking to keybinds, you might even suck for a couple weeks, but stay with it because you will get better.

Signed,
Irylath, former clicker that L'd2 keybind and got WAY WAY WAY better.

Charon
10-21-2011, 07:06 PM
On my healer toons, I use an addon called "Healium." I keep it small, out of the way, and with the tooltips turned off. I can see what's going on, but when I see a health bar dropping, I click the appropriate spell. Otherwise, I use the typical 1 to = layout Blizz provides and move with my mouse. Would it work better to keybind everything to my left hand? Perhaps! But as is, I do just fine. I don't lose DPS by moving my left arm (I did by changing chairs, but my back hurts way less!), I don't die to fires (unless wifey's yelling at me during the fight at the end of VP >.<), and I don't let others die if it can be avoided. However, relying on JUST clicking CAN promote tunnel vision which usually means you die.

Bovinity
10-21-2011, 07:16 PM
Irylath, former clicker that L'd2 keybind and got WAY WAY WAY better

This, basically.

I used to click, too. I like to think I have higher-than-average dexterity and reactions, so for a long time it worked "ok". Honestly, I was pretty good, PvE'ed and PvP'ed pretty well, folks said I was a good player, blah blah.

One day I saw a PvP video. The guy was very impressive and talked about keybinds. I gave it a try. Holy crap. If I thought I had good dexterity and reactions before, switching to keybinds only amplified that. It's pretty ridiculous the difference it makes. I think back to how I used to be and just chuckle at that poor, silly newbie named Bovinity who thought he was good enough to get away with clicking. =D

sifuedition
10-21-2011, 10:21 PM
When I said "click casting heals" I mean, grid + clique, vuhdoo, healium, etc. These are addons that essentially make mouseover macros for you and bind them to mouse clicks instead of keyboard buttons.

orcstar
10-21-2011, 11:26 PM
While keybinding helps somewhat don't make it into the divine thing it is not.

Wow is a very predictable game and like a chess player a good wow player thinks ahead and knows the abilities he wants to use next.
Situational awareness isn't something that comes with converting clicking to binding, it comes with people playing their game more seriously. Setting up addons and moving your bars to where you can see them AND your surroundings helps a lot more on that.
Also you have the GCD which gives clickers a 1 to 1,5 second window to move their mouse to their musclememorized location. Yes, muscle memory works for clickers also.

Also, for classes like rogues, they're for the most part not capped by GCD but by energy, is you don't let your energy get full AND do the right rotation there is quite some leeway on when you use your abilities so clickers are not at less of a disadvantage.

All in all, yes keybinding is preferred over clicking but it won't make the difference people make it believe. Playing your game more seriously is what makes that difference.

On another note, who has taken the next (obviously superiour ;-)) step which goes from mouselooking to mousemoving. Unbind your WASD and do all the moving of your character with the mouse, man I love the freedom my left hand now has.

leethaxor
10-22-2011, 02:10 AM
Also you have the GCD which gives clickers a 1 to 1,5 second window to move their mouse to their musclememorized location. Yes, muscle memory works for clickers also.


Now. I have set myself up for the argument that "You are limited by the GCD in wow, you can only use an ability every 1 to 1.5 seconds (depending on character haste level)." This is correct. But, there are a lot of abilites off the GCD, also the ability to start pressing a key before the GCD has ended is important.

Why is it important? Assuming you haven't watched this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgDjG_0ecTI) by Kripparrian. If you start spamming after the GCD has ended, you will not execute your ability until after the GCD has ended BUT after the server receives the information that your GCD has ended. This means you can lose 100 to 300 ms of up time every time you use an ability.

Over a 4 minutes 30 second fight you can see some where in the 200 GCD range. Losing say 200ms between abilities is 40 seconds of up time. That means the boss gets pulled, and you stand still for 40 seconds doing nothing. I can literally get disconnected, end wow, and log back into the game in less time then you waste doing that.

I swear I could make a post that would solve the conflict in the middle east, break rsa, and solve world hunger and nobody would read it. So lets keep it short and sweet

***TLDR***
All top players use keybinds, pve and pvp. You can argue till your blue in the face. I have never met somebody, who killed heroic ragnaros, or got a gladiator title and clicked (or keyboard turned). All you are doing is handicapping yourself.

Fetzie
10-22-2011, 04:13 AM
Also, for classes like rogues, they're for the most part not capped by GCD but by energy, is you don't let your energy get full AND do the right rotation there is quite some leeway on when you use your abilities so clickers are not at less of a disadvantage.

Rogues have to consider their positioning as part of the rotation. Also, sub-35% you ARE gcd capped as assassination. You have twice the energy that you need, and the rogue GCD is 1 second. On Occuthar sub-35% I am constantly on the move as the tanks never seem to get that you don't need to stand 180 to each other. Constantly on the move = my mouse is nowhere near the action bars and if I don't use my abilities I don't do any damage. Same goes for pretty much all melee. If you want a Firelands alternative, Shannox, Beth'tilac, Alysrazor, Rhyolith, Baleroc (to a lesser extent), Majordomo and Rag (OK so all of them) all require high dps while moving, and they require an accuracy of character steering not possible with WASD(QE) alone.

Keybinding IS better than clicking everything. You want sources? How about the dozens of threads made specifically about this topic since 2007. There is no rational argument that would substantiate the claim that clicking is better than keybinding. Or at least, I haven't seen one in 5.5 years of WoW playing. I'm fairly sure that I would have seen at least one in that time.



On another note, who has taken the next (obviously superiour ;-)) step which goes from mouselooking to mousemoving. Unbind your WASD and do all the moving of your character with the mouse, man I love the freedom my left hand now has.

Using WERSDF for movement is better than QWEASD, you gain 3 base keybinds left and right of the movement keys (QAY(Z) and Z(Y)HB) which can also be mapped with +alt, +crtl, +shift for 18 additional binds without stretching your hand unnecessarily (even more if you use combinations of modifiers) and you can also reach N and M with your thumb.

klausi
10-22-2011, 08:15 AM
Using WERSDF for movement is better than QWEASD, you gain 3 base keybinds left and right of the movement keys (QAY(Z) and Z(Y)HB) which can also be mapped with +alt, +crtl, +shift for 18 additional binds without stretching your hand unnecessarily (even more if you use combinations of modifiers) and you can also reach N and M with your thumb.
Hmm i move around with W + mouse and use S maybe once a day to backpedal (ie proper boss positioning, moving vehicles on Flame Leviathan etc), i don't see the benefits of strafing in WoW compared to a first person shooter. Keyboard turning is cruel, so it comes down to four binds maximum for movement (forward, backward if needed/wanted, strafe left/right). I could swap to E(S)D(F) to free up even more possible keys but i've ~ 40 abilities bound i use on a regular base and it feels sufficient for me.

Clicking is no option for me, not because it's for lesser skilled people etc but simply because i'm not good at reacting and aiming/hitting the right ability in time if necessary.

Tengenstein
10-22-2011, 05:25 PM
Forward is both mouse buttons, backpeddlr is the other left mouse button, and strafe is mouse wheel tilt

Fetzie
10-22-2011, 05:25 PM
I wish my mouse button tilted...

orcstar
10-22-2011, 11:34 PM
Forward is both mouse buttons, backpeddlr is the other left mouse button, and strafe is mouse wheel tiltForward I the same, I have backpedal on the middle mouse button, an strafe left and right on the two side buttons on the left of my mouse. I tried to have it on tilt but was afried I would and up with a scrollwheel in my hands.
It took some practice getting used to though I started a new character and unbound wasd and by the time I got to level 50 it was "in my system". It's worth it though but definately not something you want to try on a main. Learn it on an alt then when you can also switch on your main.

Tengenstein
10-23-2011, 06:25 AM
I'm on to my second MX620 the backpeddle button failed on the last one. The switch spring broke in the on position, so I couldn't move forward and just passively backpeddled. THAT made ICC interesting.

Toushiro
10-23-2011, 08:08 AM
I use QWE for movement in any MMO I play. Right now I use my naga buttons for binding with a mix of shift and alt. I used to use my keyboard for binds and I had some crazy ones :p

Unforgivein
10-23-2011, 10:14 AM
Disclaimer: I didn't really read the other posts here, so I might be repeating things. I went straight from "contemplative interesting discussion" to nerd rage.

There is a right answer... CLICKING IS BAD. DO NOT CLICK... EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Healers can get away with a "kind of clicking" by using keybinds, mouseover macros, and clique, but that's as close as you get, and clicking on a spell takes way more time and effort than just pressing keys.


This is just a grossly inaccurate statement. I never look at my keyboard, ever, and I have everything bound. I mean... maybe if you still have to look at your hands when you type, but the muscle memory for 12345 qefzvgt `, etc. etc. etc. etc. is there. There is no looking, you instantly queue up your next spell, no down time, no moving your mouse, no taking your eyes off what you need to to be raid aware. AND mouse moving is faster, if you keybind, you just click and move, no keyboard turning, no repositioning your mouse, you're just there. And in raid environments where you can get clipped by things (leaping flames on domo, engulfing flames on rag) by just being a half second off, keybinding is way preferred.


This is accurate



This made me giggle a little, opinions are not facts. BUT the FACT of the matter is, keybinding is better. You might be able to do "acceptable" damage or healing, or "acceptable" raid awareness etc. if you're just a REALLY GOOD CLICKER, but you're not going be at the best possible performance levels. Period. Keybinds, moving with your mouse, NOT CLICKING AND NOT KEYBOARD TURNING, flat out will make you a better raider. Period. Fact.

Now you might see a temporary drop in performance when switching from clicking to keybinds, you might even suck for a couple weeks, but stay with it because you will get better.

Signed,
Irylath, former clicker that L'd2 keybind and got WAY WAY WAY better.


I know when i posted it, It didn't make sense. I was trying to get peoples personal opinions, and then back it up with why you do it. and there are some facts to back things up. I apologize because I was half-awake when posting it(sorta the same right now), and may have not wrote it in the right manner.

feralminded
10-24-2011, 06:30 AM
There is no debate here, keybinds > clicking. How much better is open for debate but uninteresting ... its like mouse turn vs keyboard turn. If you want to be the best you can be at wow you will need to mouse turn and keybind, end of story. I like the sub-debate about mouse-movement. I've been doing this since release with thumb 1 forward, thumb 2 back, and mousewheel tilt strafe. I still have strafe on my left hand too, however, as I've found the overlap important depending on what I'm doing (when healing it really helps to have some left hand movement available while cliquing my heals :)

Zaronis
10-27-2011, 04:39 PM
Clicking works just fine for leveling. In PvE it can still put out competitive damage, keep people alive, or glue enemies to the tank (especially now). When playing against the machine, it isn't mandatory to perform at the absolute best that a human can achieve.

I know the original poster said this topic should cover PvE only, but I'm going to ignore that. Why artificially exclude an entire area of gameplay from having any weight on this matter? Because clickers don't survive long in PvP. I've seen clickers try to fight. They can either move, or cast. It is easy to remain behind them, where they are incapable of dealing any real damage.

Why are keybinders so insistent on their "superiority" over clickers? My guess is that all keybinders were clickers at some point in their gaming life. We used to click on everything, but moved onto a better system. Join us.

Fetzie
10-27-2011, 04:47 PM
My guess is that all keybinders were clickers at some point in their gaming life. We used to click on everything, but moved onto a better system.

I think this too. We converted and have seen our own gameplay improve significantly, and thus hope to improve those that linger under the curse of the mouse but still can be saved :)

slapflap
11-13-2011, 12:17 AM
interesting read. ty for the content

Dreadski
11-14-2011, 10:37 AM
Ever since Vanilla, and in every similar MMO, there has never been a good argument for why clicking abilities is a better alternative to primarily binds. This thread and the dozens before it in the past 6 or 7 years are proof of that.

jeffersonian000
11-28-2011, 10:33 PM
I'm a keybinder that does not use a mouse (hate the stupid things), and I play on a laptop. Almost everything thing I do is key bound. Everything I do would be key bound if tab-target worked at all like it use to (seems to target furthest target rather than nearest target). I make extensive use of macros to make life easier for me by combining activations that I commonly use together, such as popping Avenger's Wraith and a specific trinket at the same time. The only down side is that I'm a keyboard turner, so PvP is challenging for me most of the time (playing a non-holy paladin makes PvP challenging pretty much all the time).

I don't look at my keyboard while playing, because this is how I've played for 2 years now. Did try to learn how to mouse turn, but found that it reduced the number of actions I could take simply because I had to remove one hand from the keyboard to maneuver (exchanging 48 board keys for 17 mouse keys was too much loss of control). Ironically enough, trying to mouse turn led to my desire to click over keying, so I dropped it until some later date when I'm not doing endgame content.

SJ

Libellus
11-29-2011, 02:49 AM
I'm not the most accomplished keybinder in the world, but most of what I do is keybound and has been that way for a looong time. Since DAoC in fact, where I played a Paladin and anyone here who played that class will know how much keybinding was a necessity for that. Twisting chants 24/7 while moving and doing your combat styles, simply wasn't going to happen with mouseclicks.

It makes a big difference, not just in terms of playing ability, but comfort as well. Trying to do everything through the fingers of your mouse hand places a lot of strain on that hand, keybinding spreads the workload across your hands.

Even if you're touch typing ability isn't great, you should be able to managed one or two bound keys and depending on what you choose to bind, you'll still see an improvement in performance. Especially if you combine that with mouseturning. You can always start with a few keys and building up over time. Practice is the key though, build up the muscle memory and you'll wonder how you ever managed to play without keybinds.

Ishau
12-30-2011, 12:47 AM
I know this post is fairly old, however I thought I would add a few things now that I have started posting on Tankspot.

It will always be better to use keybindings than 'clicking' for several reasons.

1.) Game Awareness. You will be focusing more of your attention to your Action Bars than someone who doesn't click. This gives you much less awareness of what is going on around you. Yes you can still see most of the stuff that goes on around you but you will always be slower at spotting and reacting than those who are decent keybinders and hardly ever need to look at there action bars.

2.) Abilities off of the GCD. Sure a great deal of this can be fixed with some macros, however how are you supposed to interupt an ability whilst continuing to maximise your DPS?

3.) Targetting. Tab Targetting is bad, it is as simple as that. I get so frustrated with those who tab target because it just isn't optimal at all. Playing with keybinds means you have the mouse free to actually physically click on the enemy you have to nuke instantly.

4.) Click on the lightwell! You have no idea how annoyed our Holy Priest gets by clickers :p. You just can't click on the lightwell whilst maximising your numbers.

5.) Keyboard turning. So you either have to keyboard turn or stop clicking on abilities for a second to be able to rotate. Both are very bad.


Why are keybinders so insistent on their "superiority" over clickers?
This isn't so much about trying to claim superiority from where I am sitting. This is about trying to help said players do better. We all play this game for fun, and we do get our fun from different things sure, but what is wrong with trying to help everyone be the best they can be.


Using WERSDF for movement is better than QWEASD, you gain 3 base keybinds left and right of the movement keys (QAY(Z) and Z(Y)HB) which can also be mapped with +alt, +crtl, +shift for 18 additional binds without stretching your hand unnecessarily (even more if you use combinations of modifiers) and you can also reach N and M with your thumb.

Just because you prefer a style does not make it 'better'. Unlike keybinding vs clicking, which there is a clear winner for, using WASD and ESDF has very little difference either side. You should not confuse personal style with optimal.
There are players, like me for example, who just don't need that many more keybinds. I have 48 on my mouse and 34 on my keyboard which is more than enough. Moving to use ESDF will achieve nothing, and for me is actually less optimal as I'd have to stretch futher to reach the modifiers.

leethaxor
12-31-2011, 12:09 PM
3.) Targetting. Tab Targetting is bad, it is as simple as that. I get so frustrated with those who tab target because it just isn't optimal at all. Playing with keybinds means you have the mouse free to actually physically click on the enemy you have to nuke instantly.


There is worse things in the world then tab targeting. In a prefect world we would all use target macro's but we always can't. Tab targetting works on most fights when and add dies and you need to switch right back to the boss. But it has felt very broken after 4.3

Dreadski
12-31-2011, 03:22 PM
Tab targetting is generally fine for a melee tank, but for dps it's a death wish, and for healers it's retarded. We used to call the dead rogues in my guild in BC the "tabfuckers". Hilarious. Drunk Southern drawl yelling out "tabfawkerzz" on vent after a few deaths usually made my night.

Kahmal
01-01-2012, 10:24 AM
I think the only time you can get away with clicking and be decent is if you play ranged. On Melee it will hinder you a lot.

Dreadski
01-02-2012, 01:41 AM
I think the only time you can get away with clicking and be decent is if you play ranged. On Melee it will hinder you a lot.
Clicking will gimp ranged nearly as much as melee.

Bodasafa
01-02-2012, 09:36 PM
Keybinding things after you get used to it is just muscle memory. Granted its not easy to make the transition. I had to force myself at the start of Cata, I did it while leveling where things could be forgiving when I made mistakes, because make no mistake you will screw up a lot while learning. Its really a mentality thing, you have to want to do it and know you will be better for it.

In a nutshell muscle memory is faster then looking at your action bars and clicking. One great example is targeting something. Its much faster to target with a mouse click than it is to tab target.

Can you do raid finder difficulty and get by clicking... Absolutely.

Can you do normal raids and get by clicking... More than likely, though performance against keybinders will be noticeable, especially as a DPS.

Can you do heroic raids and get by clicking... Maybe, but you will be sub par compared to others who are keybinding and it may show enough to warrant sitting you.

Bottom line is if you're in it to raid seriously spend the time to learn keybindings it pays off.

Dreadski
01-04-2012, 11:43 AM
I agree with you but for some caveats, I needed to clarify the quoted text a little further.




Can you do raid finder difficulty and get by clicking... Absolutely. Might get kicked after Ultraxxion or before. (Remember it's LFR, they'll bandwagon votekick shitties).


Can you do normal raids and get by clicking... More than likely, though performance against keybinders will be noticeable, especially as a DPS. Again, might last up to Ultraxxion but your dps will gimp the raid and all the clicking could cause you to flat out faceplant on Hour.


Can you do heroic raids and get by clicking... Maybe, but you will be sub par compared to others who are keybinding and it may show enough to warrant sitting you. Don't even bring this up!!!


Bottom line is if you're in it to raid or PVP seriously spend the time to learn keybindings it pays off. Slight FTFY!

Leucifer
01-04-2012, 12:03 PM
Currently learning keybinds........

Clicking is faster at two points....
1) When you're new to WoW and don't know better.
2) When you're transitioning from clicking to keybinds and are fumbling around like a drunken monkey fresh out of spin cycle.

By comparison......
Keybinds is like knowing how to actually type, versus hunt and peck style typing.

Ion
01-04-2012, 12:35 PM
Can you do raid finder difficulty and get by clicking... Absolutely.

Sure, but you're STILL going to be bad. If it's tuesday you might be bad enough to get kicked. If it's monday, probably not.


Can you do normal raids and get by clicking... More than likely, though performance against keybinders will be noticeable, especially as a DPS.

Perhaps true. I'm dubious that you can do movement-heavy fights in a competent manner as a clicker.


Can you do heroic raids and get by clicking... Maybe, but you will be sub par compared to others who are keybinding and it may show enough to warrant sitting you.

There's no "maybe" about this. You WILL NOT be good enough to do heroic raids, at least in 10 man where there's no margin for carrying shitters. Your reactions will be too slow, your movement will be too late, you will be a huge hindrance to your raid. Honestly, if the raid is serious enough to be even starting HM raiding, there's very little chance you'll even make it this far without being sat until you learn to keybind.

Theotherone
01-04-2012, 01:41 PM
Such an angry subject.

leethaxor
01-04-2012, 01:43 PM
There's no "maybe" about this. You WILL NOT be good enough to do heroic raids, at least in 10 man where there's no margin for carrying shitters. Your reactions will be too slow, your movement will be too late, you will be a huge hindrance to your raid. Honestly, if the raid is serious enough to be even starting HM raiding, there's very little chance you'll even make it this far without being sat until you learn to keybind.

Our Dk tank actually 'clicked' and by clicked I mean he clicked most his major cooldowns. And he was fine, and it was good enough (good enough is never good enough if you do anything at all that gives you a 'skill' cap then you should do it should you?) to remain in the top 100 US.

That is until I became his arena partner...

truculent
01-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Our Dk tank actually 'clicked' and by clicked I mean he clicked most his major cooldowns. And he was fine, and it was good enough (good enough is never good enough if you do anything at all that gives you a 'skill' cap then you should do it should you?) to remain in the top 100 US.

That is until I became his arena partner...

clicking a cd is hardly meaningfull.

clicker (as far as i know) refers to your rotation. the abilities you need to spam in order to not lose like a billion gcd's worth of damage per fight. clicking a cd that has a 1 minute cd is irrelevant imo.

as for keyboard turning, its not even worth discussing. its not like you can keyboard out of engulfing flames.

Theotherone
01-04-2012, 02:04 PM
Well keyboard turning is an interesting thing; when I tank I'll keyboard turn if I have to be precise in moving a mob or positioning (I'm really bad about over running if I use the mouse), if I have to turn and run quickly, like engulfing flames or getting behind rocks on Morchok, I use the mouse.

You actually can keyboard turn out of engulfing flames ... if you bubble.

Leucifer
01-04-2012, 02:19 PM
Our Dk tank actually 'clicked' and by clicked I mean he clicked most his major cooldowns. And he was fine, and it was good enough (good enough is never good enough if you do anything at all that gives you a 'skill' cap then you should do it should you?) to remain in the top 100 US.

That is until I became his arena partner...

..... which is where the clicker/keyboard-turner gets chewed alive by the person dancing around their toon

Leucifer
01-04-2012, 02:23 PM
Ok. I'll make one caveat.

When the keybind user is drunk and facerolling the keyboard. Face-slamming the keyboard to activate keybound abilities will likely be less effective than mouse clicking.

leethaxor
01-04-2012, 02:33 PM
Ok. I'll make one caveat.

When the keybind user is drunk and facerolling the keyboard. Face-slamming the keyboard to activate keybound abilities will likely be less effective than mouse clicking.

Just like saying a shadow priest is better for DI then a firemage, but if you have an amazing firemage and crappy shadow priest the mage will use it better.

Ion
01-04-2012, 03:36 PM
Our Dk tank actually 'clicked' and by clicked I mean he clicked most his major cooldowns.

There's a very definite difference between clicking a button every couple of minutes and clicking a button on every global.

Tengenstein
01-05-2012, 10:12 AM
Or many buttons; like Heroic strike AND Shield slam and pummel and spell reflect, and shield block. Anyone worked out how you click all of them at the same time?

leethaxor
01-05-2012, 10:16 AM
Or many buttons; like Heroic strike AND Shield slam and pummel and spell reflect, and shield block. Anyone worked out how you click all of them at the same time?

Macro's namely cast sequences. Seeing as your aren't tied down by the 40 to 50 max keybinds you should be able to make a macro for almost any situation and click it when the event happens.

</sarcasm>

Tengenstein
01-05-2012, 10:24 AM
thats a lot of muscle memory. I'd kinda like to see someone play like that

dcumberland
01-06-2012, 12:40 AM
Damage, Tanking (primarily tanking):

Many may find this a bit of an odd setup, but all my major spells are on my num pad (G510 keyboard) so for tanking on a port paladin, keys 1-9, * and - are my normal spells. 0 is auto-attack. "But you can't fit all your spells in that small space" you may say, and that's true! My secondary action bar is the same thing, but with a shift modifier. And thanks to muscle memory and some audible clicks with visual notifications from MSBT when something is ready, the only time I look at my action bars, is to see when something major is coming off cool down, and thanks to OmniCC, it's pretty obvious.

I move with WASD while having my mouseovers on the numbers 1-5 (above WASD). I am also not a keyboard turner. If I have to move in a hurry, I will use the mouse to run. The G keys close to the WASD are my "Oh Snap!" buttons (LoH, Bubble, Pots, skull and cross markers, etc.). This is the setup I've been playing with since the start of Wrath and I've never had a problem with it.

If you can't touch type or don't know where your keys are, then keybinding is not a very efficient choice.

Aggathon
01-06-2012, 05:00 AM
thats a lot of muscle memory. I'd kinda like to see someone play like that

My warrior had well over 30 keybinds.... q, e, shift q, shift e, f, shift f, r, capslock, control f, z, v, shift v, control v, F1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, shift 1, shift 2, shift 3, shift 4, shift 5, `, mouse 4, shift mouse 4, mouse 5, shift mouse 5, shift a, shift s, shift d... that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

I basically had everything bound and in such a way that I could micro-manage everything with the use of very few macros. Shift+1 was like a charge/intercept/intervene macro. But anyways. I actually did still click a button! I always clicked shield wall because it was too important of a cooldown to fatfinger, and I usually knew when I needed to use it, and I had several other cooldowns that I had bound if I needed an immediate "OH S***" button.

I have a similar number of binds on my warlock.

Fetzie
01-06-2012, 07:07 AM
There is also the issue that if you need to use shield wall in a hurry (where a 0.1 second reaction time would possibly be able to make a difference), it is probably too late anyway.

Aggathon
01-06-2012, 07:10 AM
Ya, that too. When I tanked I always tried to be proactive in my cooldown usage unless I knew I had to save it for something. I tried to never let my HPs drop below about 40%. My philosophy was "if a tank didn't press all the buttons he/she could, then the death was partially their fault too." Within reason of course, sometimes you just get gibbed and it wasn't really anyways fault... but I digress.

Point is clicking some cooldowns is NOT the same thing as being a "clicker" and "keyboard turner."

Tengenstein
01-06-2012, 10:59 AM
My warrior had well over 30 keybinds.... q, e, shift q, shift e, f, shift f, r, capslock, control f, z, v, shift v, control v, F1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, shift 1, shift 2, shift 3, shift 4, shift 5, `, mouse 4, shift mouse 4, mouse 5, shift mouse 5, shift a, shift s, shift d... that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

I basically had everything bound and in such a way that I could micro-manage everything with the use of very few macros. Shift+1 was like a charge/intercept/intervene macro. But anyways. I actually did still click a button! I always clicked shield wall because it was too important of a cooldown to fatfinger, and I usually knew when I needed to use it, and I had several other cooldowns that I had bound if I needed an immediate "OH S***" button.

I have a similar number of binds on my warlock.

However I assume you have a normal nuber of fingers to hit those macros, I wanna see some one whizzing there mouse all over the screen to hit those 50 odd macros

Toushiro
01-06-2012, 11:14 AM
my DK has 48 keybinds, all of them are bound to my naga, I don't know how I had managed that many binds on my keyboard before my naga.

Aggathon
01-06-2012, 11:24 AM
oh, I know, that's my point. It's not doable without keybinds.

Ion
01-06-2012, 11:36 AM
I have about 30-35 binds, roughly half to two-thirds I'll use on any particular encounter, but the binds hit vary, so they're all basically useful on one fight or another. Not including wasd for movement and caps lock for PTT either...so 40 or so if you count those...

jeffersonian000
01-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I've never been able to get the hang of using a mouse (hate the stupid things). Been playing WoW on a laptop w/o since I started playing WoW. My keybinds are set up rough like this:

F1 (racial), F2-F5 (alternate rotation), F6-F8 (useful utilities), F9-F11 (long cast heals), F12 (Oh shit button)
"`" (target nearest enemy player), 1 (occational be useful CD), 2-5(rotation), 6-7 (proc based attacks), 8-0 (utilities), "-" (interrupt), "=" (low CD defensive CD)
Q (Oh shit Heal), W (drop-in activation 1), E (drop-in activation 2)
A (quick heal on focus), S (quick utility on focus), D (limited use disruptive CD)
";" (mapped to key 9 to hit while steering), " ' " (mapped to key "-" to hit while steering)
"." (extra action button 1), "/" (strafe left), arrowkeys for movement, Numberpad 0 (strafe right)

My number pad has alt, ctrl, and Sht keybinds with the numbers = buffs/seals/gear sets/mount, ctrl+number = target markers, etc.

Its a set up that is comfortable for me, because its the one I've used for years to play this game (muscle memory). The only downside is that I'm quite bad at PvP (just not fast enough/can't stay on target/tab-targeting doesn't target nearest enemy for some stupid reason). In raids I tank or dps, with no loss of awareness or manuverability (arrow+strafe can be done with the right hand as well as hiting interrupts, taunts, and defensive CDs as needed, while the rotation is handled by the left hand including snap heals and team member assist spells. I've also made extensive use of macros to link/fix abilities to work like I want them to work.

Like I said, works for me.

SJ

feralminded
01-06-2012, 02:47 PM
Like I said, works for me.

SJ

I'm glad you are successful but please understand there are some things that are impossible to effectively accomplish without a mouse to turn with. Like Razorgore kiting as a hunter ... I was GM/RL back in those days and I had to kick several of my hunters who refused to mouse turn because it just wasn't possible to do the leap/spin/distracting shot/spin back and keep running without losing any velocity thing with a keyboard. In fact the majority of kiting jobs require a mouse-turner. That said its never a thing where everyone in the raid has to kite so you're probably ok although I bet tanking some fights would be pretty dicey without a mouse turn to speed up your escape from the fire ... not impossible just more difficult.

swelt
01-07-2012, 02:51 PM
What is this thread doing in the theory forum?

Martie
01-07-2012, 02:56 PM
Like I said, works for me.

If you can play well without a mouse, I daresay you could be awesome with one. There's a handfull of things that go so much faster with a mouse that it's not even funny.
(And I don't even want to imagine healing without one.)

Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 12:43 PM
Prot Warrior = 24 key-bound abilities (some are macros) and I have a few other abilities that are things that i don't use in raids enough for me to bother key binding, but are on my bars nonetheless. But we're going to ignore those for this discussion;5'[.
Now, i'm not trying to tell you to go buy a gaming mouse..... but they're REALLY nice to have. My top recommendations would either be a Naga, (where you have a number pad for your thumb) or the SteelSeries Cata Mouse. I use the latter of the two because I like having the buttons in different places and having to sue different fingers for different things. (That and the SteelSeries was a gift that i didn't have to pay for lol)
Anyway, point being, this gives you plenty of room to key-bind your more utility oriented abilities. (defensive CD's, CC)

In short, clicking is also bad for raid awareness. My co-tank has some defensive CD's unbound and occasionally it will cause a wipe due to a miss-click. And the only time i ever have to look at my keyboard is if i misplace my hand after strafing or something.

Dreadski
01-16-2012, 01:15 PM
About 20 abilities on my nostromo, shift modified with button 4 on my naga. 9 buttons + 3 mounts on the naga as well, not the perfect setup but when I get a chance I'll consolidate.

I like to click professions though.

jeffersonian000
01-16-2012, 06:03 PM
The issues I'm having without a mouse is that I'm slow in PvP, have some trouble switching targets (tab-targeting seems broken on quite a few fights), and can't move/fight in 3D (Maligos/dragon-vehicle fights) with any form of efficiency. However, when I go to a mouse, I lose most of the options I had available within easy reach of my right hand. Yes, could get a Naga and relearn how to play WoW. Unfortunately, I'm poor, and just can't affort a Naga. My experiments with a multi-button mouse led to me just trashing the idea and going back to keys only (2 weeks of time and valuable dollars waste). I'm sure there is a workaround, but I'm also sure that any improvements gained would be minor.

I play a Prot/Ret Paladin, and other than a few tricky target swaps there really are very few instances were my performance would improve by totally relearning how to play WoW.

SJ

Dreadski
01-17-2012, 06:15 AM
Jeff, turning with your keyboard is slow, where right-clicking and turning with the mouse is instantaneous. You can bind every key your left hand can reach and then use a modifier like shift, ctrl or alt and bind more abilities over them. No need to buy a new mouse, I did it to try it out and ended up liking it. I played through 2 expansions using a shitty logitech wireless mouse or something similar.

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 07:23 AM
I'm playing with a logitech microsoft intellimouse with two thumb buttons, left, right and mousewheel (that can also click). I have done for years now. You really do not need a mouse with a gazillion buttons on the side to not keyboard turn.

Zefron
01-17-2012, 08:08 AM
I would say that keybinding is alot more effective if you're trying to do things simultaneously, but then again I know people who are clickers who are just as good as keybinders.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 10:03 AM
Here's a question in response to Leethaxor's very detailed response (which I agree with). How are you able to move (do you use WASD), use a keybound ability or two that might be mapped to the right side of the keyboard (say K for instance), and keep your hand on the mouse? Or do you just only use keybindings that are multiple keys? I'm not new to keybinding, but I have never been able to participate in raids like I do currently and when you need to use an ability within .3 secs or face death, sometimes I miss it by "that much" just because I'm trying to move away from the fire, keep the boss in my sights, and use the ability right after I have just used one (or worse, having to interrupt that spell to use the one that saves your life and prevents a wipe instead)?

I'm just curious how you or some people actually setup their keybindings and their use of the mouse/camera/cursor as well. Any tips or advice would be great. I can't be a hardcore raider due to things in my life, but I want to be one of the best "casual" raiders in my guild so that they always come to me when they have a slot to fill. I don't want to let them down.

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 10:08 AM
Quite simple. Don't bind anything used frequently to keys further right then the 6THB keys :)

Practice hitting buttons until you know where they are just by feeling the keyboard. Learn to type without looking at the keyboard. When these things are in your muscle memory, you won't be spending that 0.3 seconds looking for the key to press it.

Tengenstein
01-17-2012, 10:10 AM
Main abilities are 1-7, Q-R, and V-B Cds are F1-F6, interupt is `. middle mouse button and the side mouse buttons are all short CDs. mouse wheel tilt is strafe, as extra mouse buttons are backpeddle and forwards.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 10:15 AM
I can type without looking at the keyboard...no problem there. I guess the biggest issue is when I sometimes use different computers to play (reason for this is one lags in DS). Maybe I just don't have enough keys bound, but the hardest problem for me is hitting a key and then wanting to straffe and then I end up hitting R or something like that due to misplacing my hand. I am assuming you use a mouse at all times as well?

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 10:18 AM
Try rebinding strafe to A and D, and turning with the mouse.

Dreadski
01-17-2012, 10:53 AM
When I used the keyboard, I had `-6 bound, f1-f4, caps lock, qertyfgzxcv all bound, then modified with shift.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 11:10 AM
I will try that, and also maybe I can look into getting a mouse that a few buttons that may help with moving or other abilities. Thanks guys!

Aggathon
01-17-2012, 11:12 AM
another thing that some people do is isntead of using wasd they use rdfg. it gives them way more hotkeys that are usable, but if you're really used to wasd, it can be real hard to change.

Bovinity
01-17-2012, 11:12 AM
RDFG user here! (Because you all wanted to know, right?)

Aggathon
01-17-2012, 11:14 AM
for a long time I played FPS with eadf It's sort of awkward, but it actually feels more natural for someone with big hands.

Slyvar
01-17-2012, 11:18 AM
I've been using WASD since the days of Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. It would be extremely difficult to switch now. :P

Ion
01-17-2012, 11:22 AM
for a long time I played FPS with eadf It's sort of awkward, but it actually feels more natural for someone with big hands.

Meh yeah, I can't switch away from wasd because I wouldn't be able to use shift or control effectively if I did...so essentially I get a lot more binds using wasd because I can actually use modifier keys.

As I mentioned, I have 30-40 binds that might potentially be used during any given fight...and they're all basically left of the 5-t-g-v column (or on my mouse...which I only use for mwheelup/down and mouse3).

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 11:34 AM
How exactly do you remember which abilities you bound to which key, on all different toons? I find it hard to remember any new ones I add and I guess repetition will make it stick in the brain (and on muscle memory), but how do you remember all those for each character? That's a lot. And then if some abilities disappear in MoP, will you have a hard time adjusting since most of the abilities/spells have been the same at least since BC?

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 11:40 AM
Bind similar abilities to the same key. For example I have Inquisition, Slice n Dice, Savage Roar and Soul Fire bound to Shift+3, all my interrupts are on R, executes are on t, combo point/main nuke on 1+2, finishers on 3 and 4. Short term damage buffs on F, proc ability on V.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 11:45 AM
That makes sense. I will try to re-bind some of my abilities in a way that makes "sense" to me when I think about it, and I will put the most important ones closest to where my hand rests majority of the time. Thanks Fetzie.

Ion
01-17-2012, 11:47 AM
Mostly I use similar binds for all my characters.

Interrupts are generally on f, main rotational buttons are on q, e, v, g, x, mouse3, maybe 1 or 2 or the mousewheel if needs be, cleanses/dispels are on 2, defensive CDs are on 4 or 5, dps cooldowns are on ctrl-f/ctrl-g/shift-c/ctrl-c, etc...it varies some too...tanking buttons tend to be prioritized differently, healing buttons too.

I dunno, it's not really a problem. I don't really think about it that much. I'd have a hard time even saying exactly what button does what ability for any given character (is q stormstrike? lava lash? not sure without looking...but my fingers know when I'm playing).

Edit: jeez...you do work for a few minutes and the whole thread has moved on...still, the point of "my fingers know better than my brain does" stands.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 12:09 PM
Here is a tanking question. I have never tanked but I am currently leveling a druid for tanking (in low levels right now), but I'm trying to gear my 85 DK for tanking. With a larger mob, or bosses that are too freaking big for the screen with adds, what or how is the best way to switch targets. I find that when trying to fill in for a tank in dungeons while waiting for another, when I try to click the target I want to attack or force to attack me, there are times that it highlights the wrong one or say if someone runs behind you and you need to target them quickly or DG them, I need to be able to change targets quicker, but tab seems like it isn't working the best.

leethaxor
01-17-2012, 12:11 PM
Stuff about switching targets

2 Answers really.

1) You use your mouse to re position your camera and physically turn your character, its not used for much so you just click them.
2) At end game, you can use target macros.

Ion
01-17-2012, 12:14 PM
Tidy Plates (http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/tidy-plates) and Tidy Plates: Threat Plates (http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/tidy-plates-threat-plates) are pretty much the best thing possible.

Theotherone
01-17-2012, 12:15 PM
Here is a tanking question. I have never tanked but I am currently leveling a druid for tanking (in low levels right now), but I'm trying to gear my 85 DK for tanking. With a larger mob, or bosses that are too freaking big for the screen with adds, what or how is the best way to switch targets. I find that when trying to fill in for a tank in dungeons while waiting for another, when I try to click the target I want to attack or force to attack me, there are times that it highlights the wrong one or say if someone runs behind you and you need to target them quickly or DG them, I need to be able to change targets quicker, but tab seems like it isn't working the best.

I use Tidy Plates, you can just click on the name plate. I tab sometimes, but I find tab targeting to be kind of all over the place - sometimes it's accurate sometimes it's the dead mob.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Thanks everyone. I will give all these good new tips a try later today after work!

Aggathon
01-17-2012, 12:23 PM
do you have nameplates turned on? being able to click the name plates will oftentimes allow you to select mobs through bigger hitboxes.

Elven2012
01-17-2012, 01:04 PM
Yes...my nameplates are on so I can just click on those instead of trying to click on the body of the unit.

chazzhelion
01-18-2012, 04:23 PM
Please tell me this thread is an early April fool's joke.

Aggathon
01-18-2012, 04:25 PM
It happens about once every 3 months. Someone walks in say "so and so says clicking is okay" or "my guild mates made fun of me for click, wtf?!?" And then all this gets stirred up again.

Fetzie
01-18-2012, 04:26 PM
Ya, this thread was started last October.

Gregasaurous
01-18-2012, 07:18 PM
dear god.... NECCRO ID BAD!!! stop it!

Fetzie
01-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Not really a necro, this thread has had a couple of posts in it every few days; it hasn't been "dead" for more than a few days at a time.

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 07:20 PM
dear god.... NECCRO ID BAD!!! stop it!

That next happend 3 pages ago, kinda late to talk how it was necroed.

Gregasaurous
01-18-2012, 07:22 PM
I know that, It was intended as a message to the next person to try to start this thing back up.

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 07:24 PM
I know that, It was intended as a message to the next person to try to start this thing back up.

Well it's been going on pretty much since then, so it's not likely to be necroed like it was.