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BryceE
10-16-2011, 12:20 AM
I always pull first in my raid, but when it comes time for the other tank to take Rag, I'll totally escape out of everything and just stand there and do nothing, but the other tank keeps saying he's spamming taunts and Rag is not getting off of me despite me not doing nothing, not even auto attacking. The only thing I could think of that would cause me to keep the aggro even after taunting from the other tank is censure for the last few seconds of it, but censure's damage shouldn't be giving me that much aggro should it?

Bigbad
10-16-2011, 12:28 AM
Difference between no vengeance and full vengeance is pretty huge. Also the 10% threat difference to pull aggro is pretty small at the start. I have to hold back the first time the other tank taunts.

Your story sounds pretty extreme though. "spamming taunts" doesn't sound good should be 1 taunt followed by some burst threat as warrior thats shieldslam with shieldblock up + inner rage hs spam. Might help to announce tankswaps on vent if you aren't already so you can hold back the first time and see what the other tank does as burst threat. Sounds to me like the other tank is just slow with using abilities or not using the right ones. Tricks and mds can also mess it up a little but that usually isn't the case on ragg.

Tengenstein
10-16-2011, 04:11 AM
when the other tank taunts you could use
/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast [@player] Hand of salvation

and when you taunt back use
/cast Hand of reckoning
/cast righteous fury


If you co tank is a warrior make sure he's intervening you after his first taunt, this will instantly knock 10% of your threat off and if for some bizare reason rag melee's you it will actually hit the warrior, giving him rage and vengeance. combined with doing what Bigbad's said it should be nigh impossible to lose aggro, unless there's Tricks/MDs/Pain suprresions flying about andthe other tank gets some really shitty avoidance streak.

Martie
10-16-2011, 04:36 AM
Maybe you are using taunts in your priotation.

Eoika
10-16-2011, 06:12 AM
Not enough info to give you a full answer, so we can only give you workarounds.

Could have a Paladin cast DI on you when he taunts and then bres the paladin.

uglie
10-16-2011, 06:30 AM
We really need more information, mostly both tanks priority system/rotation. Though from the sounds of it you have taunt in your rotation making rag taunt immune.

Eoika, DI doesn't exist anymore.

klausi
10-16-2011, 06:59 AM
Censure ticks every 2.8 seconds for an average of 3.640 damage for our tanking paladin on Ragnaros. So unless the other tank isn't capable of pulling ~1.200 tps you'll get aggro back from just the ticking dot...

Simple system: Tank A starts tanking Ragnaros, Tank B starts announcing his taunt 3 seconds before. As soon as Tank A hears the countdown he hits escape. No hassle with RF en-/disabling or stancedancing and way more easy to control. Tank B should pool some runes/rage/holy power for the taunt and unleash two hard hitting styles during the taunt duration (lasting three seconds) to make sure Ragnaros won't turn back by accident or a ticking dot (lol..).

Remember: it takes a 10% bump over your current threat value to retake aggro in melee range. At the start of the fight (~ 1 million threat) an incited heroic strike and a shield slam or a death strike crit is enough to manage that but the longer the fight last the harder it gets to bypass the other tank by accident. Use all your tools to ease the harder phase (hand of salvation, toggling RF, intervene, and ultimately using your brain all helps).

BryceE
10-16-2011, 07:00 AM
I dont know about the bear tank that usually tanks with me, but only time I use taunt is for the tank swaps and we do call it out on vent unless the bear starts going well I can't taunt it off you after using both his taunts. I guess I need to just turn RF off and all. It just gets annoying since it only happens with me, when I taunt back off him I've got no problem getting him, but that's because I start pooling holy power and hit him with a shield. And the bear isn't going into cat form any so he's not losing veng or shouldn't be.

Oddly enough, the bear claims pally threat is OP as well, which is true, but I find bear threat to be way higher when I'm tanking on my bear with a pally =/. Same thing happens there so it could be my end. And if I go cat on my bear before he's actually off me I'm like almost dead lol.

I guess I'll just try some things and see if I can get it better.

Bigbad
10-16-2011, 07:56 AM
I'm no expert on bears but isn't berserk pretty much godmode as far as threat is concerned.

BryceE
10-16-2011, 08:03 AM
Pretty much, but his excuse to that is he only wants to use it in an emergency and he doesnt see that as an emergency =/.

Tengenstein
10-16-2011, 08:20 AM
The only time I wouldn't use Bearserk on a taunt swap is if it means it won't be off CD by the time the adds spawn for the transition, so he should be free to use it as soon as he picks rag off you the first time, and then in the transition to blow up scion thingy. If he's not going to use Berserk often (i.e. nigh on CD) effectively he shouldn't talent it. Really it's as Klausi said get him to engage brain.

dieuglydie
10-16-2011, 08:22 AM
I like to berserk during the transitions so I'm thinking he's holding back for then. The pally tank i usually tank rag with will have to hold back a little after the first taunt since he has a md and tricks on him, but putting 3 lacerates and pulverizing and mangle after the taunt usually give me a substantial lead on aggro.

BryceE
10-16-2011, 08:52 AM
All I can do I guess. It happens on my bear to with a pally tank that's the one pulling and all.

Tengenstein
10-16-2011, 10:07 AM
Taunt swapping is the only difficult part of tanking left, but if both tanks use the tools at their disposal it shouldn't be too much of a problem

uglie
10-16-2011, 11:12 AM
If rag is not switching to attack the bear even despite the taunt, you are using your taunt in your rotation or the bear is not actually hitting growl. Even him taunting, mangle, maul, autoattack should be enough to keep threat from you if you're not attacking. There shouldn't be a reason to use berserk just for a taunt swap.

Plain and simple if the boss isn't switching targets after a taunt by the inactive tank, the active tank is using taunt in their rotation making the boss go taunt immune.

Quinafoi
10-16-2011, 12:06 PM
Keep in mind, a true taunt also gives you aggro, so the taunting tank doesn't need to hit 110% threat, it's the tank that was taunted off of that would need to hit 110% in order to pull it back. If a taunt hits, you have aggro plus a small duration of a fixate effect.

True taunts can not functionally miss.

Since the boss is not taunt immune naturally and taunt can not miss there are only three possible results.
1. Taunt was never cast.
2. Taunt was evaded.
3. The target had temporary taunt immunity do to deminishing returns on taunt.

Those are the only three possible outcomes which would have resulted in aggro not swapping at all. You had tanks somehow make it through this entire instance without being able to taunt swap? I'm sure Beth'tilac, Baleroc, and the Molten Lords were amusing.

If you want to know what's happening, include a combat log.

BryceE
10-16-2011, 02:13 PM
It only happens on Rag, so I guess I'm hitting taunt by mistake then, really should move that keybind I guess since I don't really use it unless I have to tank swap.

I'm going to just totally unkeybind it and just *shudder* click it and see if he still stays on me. But even if I was using a taunt in my rotation I've always checked to see if any debuffs from me were on him and the only one is just censure so idk. I'll just unkeybind it next week and see if it still happens.

Charon
10-16-2011, 02:27 PM
Taunt debuffs only last about two to three seconds so it's unlikely you'd really see it in the clutter on his unit frame. If the bear's hitting growl, maul, mangle, anything else awesome I can't think of since my bear's only level 20.. there shouldn't be an issue. In fact, if he's having to growl AND challenging roar, have tricks/MD sent his way for the taunt and Salv yourself until he can get a grip. RF shouldn't be an issue and if it is, there's something seriously wrong. I think a log link would clear this up (despite my own inability to decipher nerdcraft.)

Tengenstein
10-16-2011, 02:51 PM
However I beleive (and it's been a while since i looked into it) If you taunt more than 5 times a minute the boss goes taunt Immune for a period of time (generally long enough to cause a serious problem)

sifuedition
10-17-2011, 06:19 AM
I have just the opposite issue. I'm a pally with a bear co-tank. When I taunt off the bear, he will not back off his rotation at all and pulls rag right back after the fixate. He continually does this (on molten lords etc). I have explained to him the vengence mechanics, the fact that he has almost all the bear drops and I have been very unfortunate with drops, etc and cannot convince him to play smartly. I'm to the point I think this week I will hop him on my first taunt, salv on second and just rotate as I can from there. He also plays games about not being on rag during adds, ie not taunting or taunting early to try to time it so he can de-target rag and hit adds. I frequently end up with 5-7 stacks despite calling each stack after three in mumble.

The first hop should be interesting to see his reaction, lol.

Ishamaelazure
10-17-2011, 06:40 AM
our dk had probs pulling off our warrior last week he kept getting immune come up to his taunts thx teng will check there not over taunting thought it was a bug

ananoon
10-17-2011, 10:03 AM
Another thing to keep in mind, is that the Burning Wound (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=101239/burning-wound) debuff the tanks gain, causes them to do apply another dot on the boss. This usually ends up being about 10% of my damage, and I suspect it increases the initial threat the first tank gets. I tank with my DK on this fight and usually pull first. The prot warrior who tanks with me sometimes has issues with losing threat after he first taunts, even though he uses vigilence. I just make sure to watch Rag's target closely after that first taunt off, and hold back all special attacks, or even stop melee. If he loses aggro, he just taunts back.

The problem is most prominent on the first taunt off. After that, there's usually no issues.

Tengenstein
10-17-2011, 10:39 AM
our dk had probs pulling off our warrior last week he kept getting immune come up to his taunts thx teng will check there not over taunting thought it was a bug

If you can get a combat log we can take a gander, I recall your warrior tank was still getting to grips with his stuff.

Ishamaelazure
10-17-2011, 10:15 PM
Think ours was a bug we didnt have a prob last night and the tanks say they didnt change anything

Quinafoi
10-18-2011, 12:51 AM
Without actual proof, you can't really write it off as a bug. Saying you didn't change anything and actually proving it was identical are two very different things. If you can not prove something is a bug, then generally speaking the more plausible explaination is the correct one.

Odds of the system failing for you and not for the tens of thousands of others, unlikely. Odds of something specific you are doing different causing it, very likely.

While bugs do actually occur (so it is possible you really did encounter a bug), claiming something as a bug without proof is just a scapegoat.

Martie
10-18-2011, 02:10 AM
Think ours was a bug we didnt have a prob last night and the tanks say they didnt change anythingIt's more likely your warrior was messing up.

Fetzie
10-18-2011, 02:15 AM
If there was a bug regarding Deathknight and Warrior taunts at Ragnaros non-heroic, these forums and the official boards would be flooded with talk about it. I also think it is much more likely (like 99.9999% sure) that your tanks simply kept using taunt when they didn't need to, and pushed the boss into DR, making him immune to the spell.

Ishamaelazure
10-18-2011, 05:04 AM
Soz about that guys unfortunatly didnt get logs so cant link them was just commenting from what our tanks said