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bigshootr8
09-30-2011, 02:26 PM
Hello I'm trying to get ctc capped or see if I can. Now that my guilds 6/7 heroic it seems like I can do it. my toon is http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/boulderfist/Calarahil/advanced

I looked up the heroic upgrades for my items and this is what I came up with I hang around right now 98.2 CtC the only change i made was I want the shoulders off Alysrazor and I'm curious what I'd gain from the cloak off Rhyolith if i changed the i believe crit to dodge.



.84 .94 .71 .81 .4 1.34 .84 .95 1 1.14
.34 .98 .55 .62 1.57 1.05 .74 .84 1.14 1.29
1.71 1.92 1.26 1.43 1.97 2.39 1.58 1.79 2.14 2.43
Increase on heroic
.21 shield
.17 weapon
.42 shoulders
.21 bracers
.29 hands


98.2
1.3

99.5

So, my question is how do i get to the cap I'm still a percent off =\

Kavaren
09-30-2011, 04:23 PM
Professions, more gear - some people ignore socket bonuses (esp 10m raiders) to run more yellow gems. Others run older items that are better itemized toward CtC - similar to running more yellow gems.

If you still fall short you can ignore the shortage or run http://www.wowhead.com/item=65048

S (http://www.wowhead.com/item=65048)hield block, 4-piece, trinket and windwalk will keep you mostly capped.

Lilreggie
09-30-2011, 04:31 PM
For starters you will want to run the ilvl 365 tank cloak from the thrall quest line. It has much better ctc. If not you should be reforging the parry to mastery instead of the hit to max ctc. Another thing to look into would be the rag shoulders. They have a ton of ctc. Also, the valor tank bracers with a 40 mastery and dodge reforge to mastery offer greater ctc than the domo bracers

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Lilreggie
09-30-2011, 04:36 PM
Also, you have your helm reforged from mastery to dodge, while parry is BY FAR more abundant on the piece than mastery. Reforge the parry to dodge, not the mastery. By napkin math those fixes should cap you easily. If not, put in one 40 mastery instead of a hybrid and you'll be full ctc

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Takethecake
09-30-2011, 05:20 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=qu=3:4;minle=346;ub=1;cr=20:79;crs=1: 3;crv=0:0;gm=3;rf=1;wt=170:46:45:20;wtv=0.83668:0. 56587:0.56587:0.16042;gb=1

Gives you the highest ctc items for each slot except trinket, but that one should be fairly self explanatory. It doesn't include the random enchant cloak/legs from al'akir but those are so rare it's hardly worth farming them.

Me personally if two items are close to each other on the list I will compare stats heavily. If one item has dodge and parry... and the other has a ton of mastery and hit, i would prefer the dodge/parry one because the difference in damage incoming will be significant.

EDIT: the stat weights on the link are based purely on ctc values, with avoidance not factoring in DR.

Bigbad
10-01-2011, 12:49 AM
Mantle of patience, crafted boots, mastery elixer+food and you should easily be unhittable. As said before head reforge is a bit weird if you aim for unhittable.

kopcap
10-01-2011, 05:21 AM
There is a good and detailed gear table on page 15 of the EJ prot warrior thread, both pre CTC and post CTC.

Pagezero
10-01-2011, 09:57 AM
You don't want the shoulders off Alysrazor, the 378 T12 shoulders cover more than the 391 shoulders from her, the T12 have so much mastery. The T12 are best for CTC, sightly better than Rag's shoulders but the Rag ones are higher level, more stam and armor which might push them ahead.

bigshootr8
10-03-2011, 02:48 PM
I've been using askmrrobot I think they are trying to have me optimize my dodge and parry I'm not quite sure. I'm going to take out my reforge on my helm and see what happens. From the looks though it goes
1. heroic rag shoulders
2. heroic t12 shoulders
3. Heroic alys shoulders

I think my cloak is fine but I want to change it with the dreadfire heroic cloak off Rhyolith is this something people to? Seems suggested on theorycraft sites.

Pagezero
10-03-2011, 07:28 PM
It's going to depend on how my much dodge and parry you have and how hard DR kicks in, for me my spreadsheet shows Heroic T12 with hit reforged to dodge 0.09% ahead of Heroic Rag shoulders. Heroic Alysrazor are way behind even the normal T12 and Rag shoulders.

If agility still gave dodge the cloak off of Rhyolith would be way above the 365 quest one, but with agi only being crit it's a bit behind the quest one for CTC, you will also loose a lot of AP but gain crit and stam.

Lilreggie
10-05-2011, 01:52 AM
The heroic rhyolith cloak is good with two mastery gems and ONLY if you are trying to ctc cap. Overall id still run the 365 cloak but the logic does stand to use the 391. Askmrrobot prioritizes overall dmv reduction in the form of avoidance over ctc. The stat weights are preset to do that, use rawr or simcraft to ax your ctc

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

bigshootr8
10-07-2011, 01:23 PM
Well, I vendored the one from the quest so I'm stuck with the one from hyjal rep till I find a new one which I guess would be the dreadfire heroic cloak purely for ctc.

Lilreggie
10-07-2011, 02:58 PM
My cousin did the same thing. If you open a ticket, they will restore it for you

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bigshootr8
10-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Thanks! That helped a lot. After I got my cloak back and now with the Elixir of the Master and the Mastery food I can now hit the CtC cap of 102.4. I'm actually buffed at .8 versus 4 but close enough. Now to figure out what to do now that I can get over the cap with buffs maybe gem stam or strength?

Gneecapper
10-11-2011, 05:06 PM
If you've hit the CTC either keep stacking Mastery to get more crit block or go more towards avoidance. Paladins go avoidance because their mastery caps out, ours does not however I've always felt that taking 0% dmg is bigger than taking reduced damage so I tend to favor avoidance over the mastery at that point. Don't know the actual math on it however that's my preference.

What does CTC stand for anyways? I've always just called it block capped or unhittable.

Gneecapper
10-11-2011, 05:07 PM
Also I'm surprised you had so much trouble hitting that did you run stam flasks or something? I've been nearly unhittable for most of Firelands combine that w/ tier bonus and procs I've been "effectively" unhittable for a while now.

Tengenstein
10-11-2011, 05:38 PM
CTC: Combat Table Coverage

Sebadoh
10-11-2011, 11:54 PM
If you've hit the CTC either keep stacking Mastery to get more crit block or go more towards avoidance. Paladins go avoidance because their mastery caps out, ours does not however I've always felt that taking 0% dmg is bigger than taking reduced damage so I tend to favor avoidance over the mastery at that point. Don't know the actual math on it however that's my preference.

What does CTC stand for anyways? I've always just called it block capped or unhittable.

Most of the guides I've read suggest going after a mix of avoidance and Stamina, for both Paladins and Warriors that are block capped. Can you link anything that would lean towards stacking more crit block?

Booi
10-12-2011, 04:05 AM
Most of the guides I've read suggest going after a mix of avoidance and Stamina, for both Paladins and Warriors that are block capped. Can you link anything that would lean towards stacking more crit block?

If they put expertise on bosses.

bigshootr8
10-12-2011, 03:18 PM
I was using regular flasks from cauldron and the seafood feast. I could hit the CtC cap with procs and things along those lines but I wanted to hit the hard cap without the need for any of those things to need to be put into play. I'm just waiting to see what the impact will be now that I'm hard capped.

Gneecapper
10-12-2011, 05:13 PM
Most of the guides I've read suggest going after a mix of avoidance and Stamina, for both Paladins and Warriors that are block capped. Can you link anything that would lean towards stacking more crit block?

No I can't lol. That whole post was my opinion based on what I've seen and as you can see I favor avoidance :P

Takethecake
10-13-2011, 03:08 PM
I believe for warriors their was a lengthy debate on EJ on stacking mastery over CTC and their was math for and against it. I think after ctc it comes down to what you want to do, their isn't a right or wrong answer. You can tweak your expertise to pull out a little extra dps or you could stack stam to give you both a higher vengeance cap and health pool, or you could ride the ctc cap while maximizing avoidance. At this point the differences are so minor that it's purely up to your playstyle/group dynamic / personal preference.

Kavaren
10-13-2011, 10:36 PM
Wont be stacking avoid, it will be STA.

6%+ hit and exp softcap most likely for Revenge shields (with 2p)

Airowird
10-14-2011, 01:58 AM
Revenge shields are not worth the extra hit/exp over avoidance.

Considering Mastery post-cap is just as dependant on RNG and better gear will actually devalue crit block (more avoidance, even just from strength will decrease block chance, thus overall crit blocks), avoidance post cap is better.
There is a good reason to go 108% for the bosses that seem to have extra expertise, but that is actually still getting the cap, not going beyond it.

klausi
10-14-2011, 03:21 AM
Most of the guides I've read suggest going after a mix of avoidance and Stamina, for both Paladins and Warriors that are block capped. Can you link anything that would lean towards stacking more crit block?
Depends on raidsize, for 25m stamina looks way more appealing to counter bursty bosses like Shannox heroic.

And for 10m, paladin: that's ok when you're decked in 378, but when you finally shift out your last normal piece you'll likely be sitting at 200k+ hitpoints raidbuffed anyways. If you're lucky enough to get the right offpieces (high mastery ones like bracer, belt, helmet) you can easily snag in a Scales of Life trinket for an extra cooldown or go for 40%+ avoidance (including miss).

And for 10m, warrior: unless you got the two right professions and you're a nelf it's rather unlikely you got much wiggle room if you want to reach that cap with a mirror anyways. Sneaking in 2-3 stamina gems or gem for dodge instead mastery won't change your play noticeable.

@bigshootr8 (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?62053-bigshootr8)
I doubt you'll see any real difference, outside of Baleroc (maybe Beth'tilac after 35 stacks) there wasn't any tankkiller around in firelands, when you wiped it was most likely due to hitting the enrage timer or screwing up something else (before). Even after all those weeks i can recite those wipes from sole tank death.

kopcap
10-14-2011, 06:07 AM
There is a good reason to go 108% for the bosses that seem to have extra expertiseWhat bosses have expertise? Baleroc's table was screwed due to dual wielding I believe. Its a small error of about 0.5% or so anyway. I heard people complain about Rag but never saw any logs to support this. Parses that show tiny discrepancies of a couple of hits in the "Damage by spell" tab are common, but I was never able to link this to Rag in any way or form outside the movement periods.


I think after ctc it comes down to what you want to do, their isn't a right or wrong answer.I would disagree. Stam and mastery/avoidance approaches will have distinctly different impacts on your burst time.

Airowird
10-14-2011, 06:19 AM
I am unsure about Baleroc's table being 'screwed', but as some people have reported full hits at 102.4% Unhittable cap on specific bosses only (although I think some Rag logs might be positioning issues), but regardless, if the increased expertise is true, it is a valid argument for that extra trinket on some fights.

As for Burst Time past the Unhittable cap: Stamina has a slight edge on Dodge/Parry (for most gear setups, YMMV), Mastery tends to lose too much value past the cap to be worth it (it's about the value of buff Armor for your average T12 tank). But the overall impact on Burst Time is not that far apart of Stamina & Avoidance to call them 'distinct'

Fetzie
10-14-2011, 06:21 AM
Baleroc's Inferno Blade cannot miss, thus requiring 107.4% CTC to ensure you block. Any other non-block above 102.4% is, to the best of my knowledge, a combatlog parsing error (full absorbs seem to not register the block reduction)

kopcap
10-14-2011, 06:45 AM
if the increased expertise is trueSince there is no evidence that it is, lets just drop it to avoid further confusion.

(Inferno has nothing to do with expertise obv, its a different mechanic).


As for Burst Time past the Unhittable cap: Stamina has a slight edge on Dodge/Parry (for most gear setups, YMMV), Mastery tends to lose too much value past the cap to be worth it (it's about the value of buff Armor for your average T12 tank). But the overall impact on Burst Time is not that far apart of Stamina & Avoidance to call them 'distinct'Individual mileage sure will vary, but in my current "stamina after ctc" setup, difference in burst time is tangible - we are talking 5-10% range here. I can easily see how this can be a difference between a cast and no cast.

But regardless of the mathematical difference there is a monumental difference between the two approaches.

Stamina is a guarantee that always works in the worst case scenario and against any type of damage.

Mastery/avoidance only works against melee and only when you are lucky.

Airowird
10-14-2011, 12:53 PM
Ok, so the increased expertise isn't something we have encountered (yet?).

And I'm gonna point out that the entire point of Burst Time is not just to have a buffer for worst case scenario (Stamina), but also to reduce the odds of it happening (avoidance), so it already takes into account the chance to be 'lucky' as you put it.

Kavaren
10-14-2011, 04:15 PM
Avoid will go up no matter what, but I doubt it will be stacked. Stamina will for warriors and paladins, druid and dk's will continue to stack mastery.

Hit/exp will naturally go up but will not likely be reforged out of - in fact you may not have to reforge your gear at all.

Higher STA and higher hit/exp combined along with the increase in AP buffs will affect tanks DPS to the point it will be like the blood craze vs deep wounds argument. In this case it is higher dps/absorbs vs. rng avoidance/rng overcap mastery.

bigshootr8
10-14-2011, 04:29 PM
I think of anything in Firelands I'm least worried about is inferno blade CtC hard Cap+Shield Block+Mirror of broken images magic resistance use =win. I'm more concerned with decimation blade but I shield wall+shield block that so no worries.

Destruyen
10-14-2011, 04:30 PM
nothing reduces decimation blade, only dodge/parry

Strucker
10-14-2011, 04:34 PM
I think of anything in Firelands I'm least worried about is inferno blade CtC hard Cap+Shield Block+Mirror of broken images magic resistance use =win. I'm more concerned with decimation blade but I shield wall+shield block that so no worries.

Shield Wall and Shield Block do nothing to help with the Decimation Blades. The Strength on use trinket and strength pots help alittle by boosting your Parry chance but as a warrior thats about all you can do.

DKs have a nice edge on that fight with the self healing and their +20% parry CD.

Destruyen
10-14-2011, 04:37 PM
DKs have a nice edge on that fight with the self healing and their +20% parry CD.

a cancelaura macro for barkskin for druids helps as well. just pop barkskin then cancel it when he casts decimation blade and enjoy 50%+ dodge :)

Strucker
10-14-2011, 05:00 PM
a cancelaura macro for barkskin for druids helps as well. just pop barkskin then cancel it when he casts decimation blade and enjoy 50%+ dodge :)

Sadly im not as up to date on bear tanking as I am with the rest :/
I just know its great to see our DK parry all four decimation strikes in a row at least once every kill

Destruyen
10-14-2011, 05:25 PM
its the feral t12 4pc, once barkskin ends you get a 10% dodge buff for 12 seconds....

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99011

bigshootr8
10-15-2011, 01:38 AM
To right you are with Decimate Blade. However, with Inferno Blade I don't recall ever causing any issues I think with the nerf to Decimate Blade would show why. I like Kocap's logic. I think once you hit the avoidance cap its probably best to push your stamina since it pushes your vengeance a little higher even by a small margin and offers a small amount of cushion.

Tengenstein
10-15-2011, 01:48 AM
However, with Inferno Blade I don't recall ever causing any issues

It makes me rage starve

Fetzie
10-15-2011, 02:19 AM
It makes me rage starve

Then use less cooldowns :) /jk

kopcap
10-15-2011, 03:44 AM
And I'm gonna point out that the entire point of Burst Time is not just to have a buffer for worst case scenario (Stamina), but also to reduce the odds of it happening (avoidance), so it already takes into account the chance to be 'lucky' as you put it.Well, yes. And so does stamina and does it better currently.

Although the point I was trying to make was that inside the actual burst stamina is king.

And combined with the fact that we are at a point of DRs on avoidance where reaction time just not going to change much no matter what we do with it, I don't see any case for avoidance at all. I mean crit block looks more interesting in this regard, but I don't see it viable enough at this item level either.

Gneecapper
10-19-2011, 04:28 PM
Ok, so the increased expertise isn't something we have encountered (yet?).

And I'm gonna point out that the entire point of Burst Time is not just to have a buffer for worst case scenario (Stamina), but also to reduce the odds of it happening (avoidance), so it already takes into account the chance to be 'lucky' as you put it.

Unless I'm mistaken and things have changed (with math to support) EH was deemed to beat avoidance almost always if not always, even looking at it from a healers stand point it makes sense. A bigger health pool makes you a more stable target to heal which is why Block Tanks also tend to be favored over their "spikey" friends. Getting hit more for less % of your total health is alot easier than rare big hits, you can plan for it as a healer which is a big thing.

EH > Avoid was the rule from BC through Wrath. Block was favored over EH in this expansion but that was because once you hit CTC you're effectively adding 30% or more EH because every hit is going to get that dmg reduced from it.

Bigbad
10-20-2011, 12:40 AM
EH > Avoid was the rule from BC through Wrath. Block was favored over EH in this expansion but that was because once you hit CTC you're effectively adding 30% or more EH because every hit is going to get that dmg reduced from it.

Block was favored this expansion since tanks already got enough stamina to prevent getting 2 shot.

Airowird
10-20-2011, 01:57 AM
Currently, Stamina > Avoidance > Armor in a Burst Time value PoV, so EHP is only better by using Stamina.
And Unhittable with the meta actually gives 44.93% extra EHP (1/69%)
But the point of Burst Time remains valid, reduce the times you actually make your healers worry and unlike WotLK, avoidance now still comes relatively close to Stamina to actually be valuable.

Strucker
10-20-2011, 02:07 AM
I am not convinced that Stamina is the best path to go post full CTC. A CTC capped tank already has enough EH to give healers time to react and this expansion Stamina increases EH a lot slower relative to the size of a melee swing.

With healer mana and time at a premium this expansion, I think it would be a mistake to disregard avoidance as a viable target stat. Riding the CTC cap, slowly shifting Mastery to Dodge and Parry, lightens the strain on healers in a way EH can not.

Airowird
10-21-2011, 05:37 AM
As I said before, in a pure Burst Time model, Stamina is slightly better, but avoidance comes close enough that you can consider the gains of pure Damage Reduction over the model of Burst Time, but that is your choice.

kopcap
10-21-2011, 07:45 AM
Strucker, no offense, but entire post makes zero sense from start to finish. I wouldn't even know how to reply to it.

Airowind, avoidance is close on Patchwerk. We are not fighting Pathwerks this expansion, we are fighting Dragons.

sifuedition
10-21-2011, 07:53 AM
Kopcap, perhaps you can elaborate?I don't see a big difference between avoidance or stam after ctc. Once you reach full ctc, you have achieved the most stability you can. Keeping full ctc while shifting out of mastery and into avoidance makes more 30% 40% or 60% reductions into 0 damage...thereby making it even easier for healers.

The one big redeeming value to stam is no DR. I still don't see how that makes stucker's comment bad.

Strucker
10-21-2011, 08:05 AM
Burst Time models come with the assumption that if we live alittle longer the healer will heal us back to full health.

In situation where the amount of heals the healer can generate is limited, possibly due to mana or having to heal other players, that assumption does not hold up.

Once a tank has full CTC the question is no longer whether the healer has time to get off his next heal, it is whether the healer will be able to sustain the healing needed for the rest of the fight. Stacking stamina does not help the healer do so in any way, where as avoidance lowers the amount of sustained healing needed and thus helps address the real issue.

kopcap
10-21-2011, 08:40 AM
Keeping full ctc while shifting out of mastery and into avoidance makes more 30% 40% or 60% reductions into 0 damage...thereby making it even easier for healers.Avoidance is the opposit of "stability", healers have no way of knowing when it will proc and when it wont.

On fights where you are spam healed, you will be getting spam healed at about the same rate. The difference is that sometimes when you parry a healer will be able to see it midcast, cancel and thus save some mana. This is hardly easier, its just a little more efficient. What will however make his life easier is knowing that a hit will take you only 20% down instead of usual 25%, thus creating a lot more room to breath and allowing more time to make better decisions, ie having enough time to cast GH instead of a FH, which in turn easily translates into better efficiency.

The one thing avoidance is good at is reducing the probability of a worst case scenario taking place, but so does stamina simply through the virtue of allowing a bigger health pool and hence requiring more "bad hits" to happen in a chain in order to trigger it.

There are of course other valid ways of making healers life actually easier, namely getting more armor and pushing crit block off the table, but none of this is currently relevant.

And again, this is all about a physical fight. Every bit of magic damage received in a fight does nothing for avoidance but tips the scales for stamina.

And obv on fights where tank healing is not intensive or spiky, stamina does not matter. But that is not what is being discussed here :)

ps The whole notion that past CTC healers' mana is a bigger cause of tanks' death than EH is pretty ridiculous. I can understand rationale behind avoidance as an attempt to max out dmg reduction on mostly physical or low hitting encounters, but as an attempt to save up healers resources its just lol.

Strucker
10-21-2011, 09:12 AM
Healers simply don't spam there biggest heals anymore, this isn't wrath, they can't afford to.
No, a healer isn't going to have to stop and change casts based on the outcome of any single swing, even on 25m heroic rag I can suvive 5-6 hits just fine (with the dot and magic damage) giving the healers plenty of time to react to any bad luck and shift to their heavy heals temporarly.

Most of the time the healers use a balance of lighter heals to preserve mana, avoidence lets them use the lighter healers more regularly, a situation they can sustain for longer. Stamina does nothing to change the mixture of heals the healer needs to use and thus leaves them running out of mana.

What your saying makes perfect sense viewed against wrath fights where healers had all the mana in the world and could spam there top heals but it simply doesn't work that way anymore. Nor are we in danger of dieing over a period of 5 seconds anymore.

Typed on my iPhone, so sorry for any typos.

kopcap
10-21-2011, 09:30 AM
If our healers could teach yours how not to go oom and you could teach me how to survive 6 hits on H Rag, we'd be smashing that shit.

Until then - lol, no.

Strucker
10-21-2011, 09:54 AM
On last nights 25M Heroic Rag trys, Rag's melee hit for 36k (blocked). Without stacking stamina I have 206k hp for that fight. So for straight melee hits, with the worst possble luck, 6 swings would just barely kill me. I currently have 42% pure avoidance, so on average it would require 10+ hits. At 2.2 seconds a swing that gives the healers at least 13.2 seconds and usually 22 seconds to pick up there healing, a far cry from the 5 seconds we had to work with back in wrath. (And thats not factoring in any CDs or crit blocks, not even Shield Block)

The dot ticked on me for 6k on average, factoring it in lowers the times to 8.8 and 17.6 seconds respectively with zero heals. If you include the light heals a healer will always be pushing, the times grow a lot longer.

So yes, 25M Heroic Rag is not going to be 2 shotting tanks anytime soon...


And if your healers seriously are not having to worry about mana management on 25M Heroic Rag, they either are godly or slacking off.

kopcap
10-21-2011, 10:02 AM
Rag must had been real hangover. And on normal.

ps Also Molten Core does not count.

bigshootr8
10-23-2011, 01:52 AM
I think being CtC capped is something that's really great health pools are already with the current tier pretty high. Yes you could get avoidance stats once you hit it. But, like what was said earlier that's given you having melee swings. I think CtC handles enough boss wise but then adding stamina is better. Because its something that is always working for you. Gives you more of a health pool for heals, gives you more vengeance even if it is slim (not suggesting stacking). I'm a little irritated with the idea that people would discount CTC as something not worthwhile or something fun to aim for. Since when do tanks have something worth shooting for in this expansion. We wont top meters, we cant show off threat anymore, why not show off how we can make a healers job easy.

klausi
10-23-2011, 07:13 AM
a far cry from the 5 seconds we had to work with back in wrath [...] So yes, 25M Heroic Rag is not going to be 2 shotting tanks anytime soon...
- Hand of Ragnaros 40k
- Ragnaros melee hit for 60-75k pre block (swing timer is at ~ 1.8 seconds debuffed)
- Burning Wound ticks for 4-5k (1 stack), 9-10k (2 stacks), 12-16k (3 stacks), 20k (4 stacks)

0.0 50k regular block
0.0 12k Burning wound tick after resists
1.8 50k regular block
2.0 12k Burning wound tick after resists
2.2 27k Hand of Ragnaros after resists
3.6 50k regular block
4.0 12k burning wound tick after resists

213k damage without absorbs, ticking hots and avoided attacks during a four second timeframe. I took those numbers from 10m heroic, i doubt they will be lower on 25m :)

But there are other things we should notice: it's highly unlikely you'll tank Ragnaros without either shieldblock or four-piece bonus up so you're 100% of the time unhittable even with no full ctc on your paperdoll. I tank him with exp softcap, strength flask, strength food, a landslide weapon with offensive stats and a damaging trinket and still hit the 102.4% during four piece bonus.

The real question left: how much avoidance can we sneak in after reaching full ctc on a warrior (or for this tier more important: on a paladin)? Compared to how much stamina? Why not skipping both and going for softcap expertise? etc..

Strucker
10-23-2011, 09:49 AM
- Hand of Ragnaros 40k
- Ragnaros melee hit for 60-75k pre block (swing timer is at ~ 1.8 seconds debuffed)
- Burning Wound ticks for 4-5k (1 stack), 9-10k (2 stacks), 12-16k (3 stacks), 20k (4 stacks)

0.0 50k regular block
0.0 12k Burning wound tick after resists
1.8 50k regular block
2.0 12k Burning wound tick after resists
2.2 27k Hand of Ragnaros after resists
3.6 50k regular block
4.0 12k burning wound tick after resists

213k damage without absorbs, ticking hots and avoided attacks during a four second timeframe. I took those numbers from 10m heroic, i doubt they will be lower on 25m :)

But there are other things we should notice: it's highly unlikely you'll tank Ragnaros without either shieldblock or four-piece bonus up so you're 100% of the time unhittable even with no full ctc on your paperdoll. I tank him with exp softcap, strength flask, strength food, a landslide weapon with offensive stats and a damaging trinket and still hit the 102.4% during four piece bonus.

The real question left: how much avoidance can we sneak in after reaching full ctc on a warrior (or for this tier more important: on a paladin)? Compared to how much stamina? Why not skipping both and going for softcap expertise? etc..

If you want to include long CD attacks (Like Hand) you have to factor in defencive CDs, any half way decent tank will be lining them up...
By the time you have 4 stacks of Burning Wounds the other tank should be taunting, at most you will have 3 stacks well actively tanking for more then a moment, and most of the time less...
Even in your worse then worst case senerio it would take only 8k total heals/absorbes for a 205k hp tank to survive a full 5 seconds, long enough for large heals to get off. Take out the Hand and the tank lives till 5.6 with no heals.

Yes my melee damage numbers appear to have included crit blocks and some absorbes, had assumed WOL seperated those out but apparently not.

If your worried about burst time deaths why in the world are you stacking expertise and strength? Threat is a joke now and tank DPS is not needed so badly as to sacrifice survival on progression content.

As to your question, I have 42% passive avoidance well maintaining 102.4% passive CTC (Raid Buffed). I'll check later what the stam/avoidance ratio looks like but one thing to keep in mind is that as you increase avoidance you start saving points you had spent on mastery amplifying the effect, stamina comes with no such perk.

I honestly can see no arguements for stacking threat stats, but thats coming from a 25 man mindset where tank DPS makes up a very small portion of the raid DPS.

Charon
10-23-2011, 10:05 AM
Not to troll or flame, but merely to promote thought:
Perhaps by your admission that you run 25s instead of 10s, you're saying that since tank DPS plays a more vital role in 10s, thus "threat" stats could become more important?

Bigbad
10-24-2011, 12:12 AM
Tank dps is only worthwhile on 10mans, which klausi runs afaik, and even then its only worth it on some encounters with a tight dps requirement.

Charon
10-24-2011, 01:04 AM
However, if you can manage full CTC and still move into damage-dealing stats to kill things faster, is that not worth it?

kopcap
10-24-2011, 04:01 AM
Checked your logs out of curiosity Klausi. I will agree you approach seems to work well on this fight on 10man. Most unblocked melee hits are only around 60k and the dps increase you bring is fairly tangible. But you do catch a few unblocked hits every attempt I looked at, this would make it a lot harder for 25 man where you get smacked up to a 100k on a regular basis. All in all I think this is great for 10 man, but very selfish for 25s.

zentok
10-24-2011, 04:14 AM
Tank dps is only worthwhile on 10mans, which klausi runs afaik, and even then its only worth it on some encounters with a tight dps requirement.

Dont think this case doesnt only appear in 10man. You can see WoL from example warrior-tank-dps at 30k dps in fights, where the tank is nonstop at the boss, which is the dps from a Tier11 damagedealer. The most of them only went 10-13 expertise. This is a like you put an extra dd in your lineup (shorter fight, less dmg over time, etc. blabla)

But to the after ctc discussion. As a warrior i prefer to aim hardcap with SB, this will negate every peak on meele hit, which you face. i know it is a role-system to block and critblock, but 80-90 with hdl are enough to barely not critblock. To reach or aim for the real hardcap of warrior mastery doesnt make sense imo. To control your critblockphases trough SB is fine enough.
So what know?
Pro Stamina:
Non-Phys Peaks
Extreme Phys-Peaks
Catches some time for healers, if your out of luck
Little more AP = More DPS = More not needed aggro

Pro Avoidance:
- in case of parry, better hdl uptime
- less dmg, but incalculable for healers
- revenge-buff expires if not lucky (less aggro, an yeah without this arcane mages can be hard in their burnphase even wiht our 500%)

I think i would mix both options up, but i dare to get over 40-45% avoidance. The risk is imo to high after 15 avoids, that the healer can not accomplish the 3 hits after the luckyphase or other unexpectetd scenario of a suddenly dmg-peak no matter from what or why this is hitting you.

Tengenstein
10-24-2011, 05:32 AM
I would be careful about WoL, I see quite a few wierd logs where they appear to be fighting Alyzrazor & another boss at the same time to get high tank damage on the other boss.

aresius
10-25-2011, 04:55 AM
Both stamina and avoidance are valuable stats. Weighing one against another depends alot on how much of each we are talking about. 100K more health is obviously better then 1% more dodge. 20% more dodge is obviously better then 10K more health.
Its important to keep in mind we arent arguing that one stat is "better" then another, im sure all here can see the importance of both, but rather what is the point in which avoidance is more optimal for survivability then stamina.
Im more pro-stamina after CTC because base gear with a few reforges already sets me at 15% parry and dodge, and well into diminishing returns. If i where to start gemming more avoidance and using a avoid trinket, i dont see it going more then 2-3% up. Meanwhile i can get 30-40Kish stamina. On pure and untested instinct, i weigh that amount of stam over that amount of avoidance and prefer the stamina.

kopcap
10-25-2011, 06:11 AM
Mm no Aresius, we are arguing precisely 15 stam vs 10 avoid vs 10 mastery.

aresius
10-25-2011, 08:47 AM
Mm no Aresius, we are arguing precisely 15 stam vs 10 avoid vs 10 mastery.
:/ goes to show that i shouldent butt-in on a conversation when im to lazy to fully read what was being discussed.

Though arguing the stat weight of a quarter gem worth of mastery, avoidance or stamina against eachother, out of context, seems pretty silly to me.

Airowird
10-26-2011, 05:42 AM
:/ goes to show that i shouldent butt-in on a conversation when im to lazy to fully read what was being discussed.

Though arguing the stat weight of a quarter gem worth of mastery, avoidance or stamina against eachother, out of context, seems pretty silly to me.It's not silly, because you can expand the discussion towards a full gem, or 2 gems or even half your gemming and a trinket or 2.

Feanorr
11-03-2011, 08:56 PM
Shield Wall and Shield Block do nothing to help with the Decimation Blades. The Strength on use trinket and strength pots help alittle by boosting your Parry chance but as a warrior thats about all you can do.

DKs have a nice edge on that fight with the self healing and their +20% parry CD.


The self healing doesnt help with decimation blades since it put a debuff of -90% self heal; however the anti magic shell reduce the decimation blades giving dk an edge on decimation blades.
But what's killing the tanks on baleroc is not the decimation blades (once healer understand how it work) but normal (and fast) hits; especially true for DK.


That's said, sorry for the out of subject.