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View Full Version : Warrior Revenge Viable Yet Again



JongyFong
09-24-2011, 06:18 PM
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3229376031

"Warrior

Protection, 2P -- Your Revenge ability now also grants a physical absorption shield equal to 20% of the damage done by Revenge.Protection, 4P -- Your Shield Wall ability now grants 50% of its effect to all party and raid members."


Looks like they're 'fixing' revenge and simultaneously implementing a bit of active mitigation via tier set bonuses.

Tengenstein
09-24-2011, 08:54 PM
a 2.5k shield every 5 seconds on a single target. Nice but nothing to get excited over. especially if it can't stack with itself. I mean we're talking about dropping the incoming DPS on us by 500. Yes, its only a 2pc bonus and they shouldn't be very powerful but this is pathetic as far as carrots go.

Revenge needs moar love plox.

leethaxor
09-24-2011, 09:01 PM
the fact that all tank cooldowns are going to partially raid wide scares me slightly... How much burst AoE damage are we gonna have...

Selendis
09-25-2011, 01:09 AM
that's a very small absorbsion shield, isn't it?
Regardless though, I like the idea that we can now actually choose between maxing dmg/threat (not using revenge) or minimizing dmg income (using revenge).
But it might very well be a moot point if the shield is too small. Gief revenge buff for 4.3!

Bigbad
09-25-2011, 01:10 AM
So as prot warrior i don't have personal cooldowns anymore? Saving last stand for rallying cry saving shieldwall for when the raids needs it. Love the raidutility but makes me feel kinda selfish at times.

500 Hps from the 2piece is kinda a joke but guess we have to see it as a minor bonus instead of something significant. Its not bad but not great either.

Loganisis
09-25-2011, 01:49 AM
How does this make revenge useful? Seems like Bloodcraze all over again. Pathetically small compared to what is needed/useful.

4pc - wtf? Oh, well, my raid had better not count on me popping SW when they set up a coolddown rotation - Last Stand takes priority over Rallying cry and Shield Wall for me takes priority over raid wall.

This has to be the most uninspiring bonus set...

It is a bonus, but I'm not hungering for it.

Zellviren
09-25-2011, 02:37 AM
4pc - wtf? Oh, well, my raid had better not count on me popping SW when they set up a coolddown rotation - Last Stand takes priority over Rallying cry and Shield Wall for me takes priority over raid wall.
The number of times I've needed Rallying Cry or Last Stand, and not had them due to cooldown sharing, has passed a number I can reliably count. It's also horrible to be in a situation when you're hesitating because you're thinking of something else coming down the road... Something I'm also ashamed to admit to.

Sure, I like the idea of a raidwall. But if I take the 4-piece, I worry that my personal cooldowns are going to be my raid leaders cooldowns and that's not what they were intended for. Oh, and needless to say - the paladin version (though still weak) is better.

kopcap
09-25-2011, 03:00 AM
Teng, you are judging from Revenge's current AP scaling. Which is 99% likely to change in the next patch anyway. I think its gonna be awesome.

Airowird
09-25-2011, 03:52 AM
Teng, you are judging from Revenge's current AP scaling. Which is 30% likely to change in the next patch anyway. I think its gonna be totally lackluster.Fixt


Personally I'm hoping that the set bonuses will be more optional, but with all tanks having extra raid CD, it seems they just wonna give you something to do besides to crappy DPS.

Bigbad
09-25-2011, 03:55 AM
Ah well changing the current 2piece about 600 dps for T13 500 hps its not going to make or break anything.

Tengenstein
09-25-2011, 04:48 AM
Revenge's AP scaling is fine, it's its base damage that's shite and craptacular crit rate that's shite.

klausi
09-25-2011, 06:12 AM
Simple put we just can hope those set boni never go live, roughly 50% of them are not well thought by any means.

DK 2 piece - there's already a talent covering exactly that: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=81164 you already pool death runes and keep blade barrier rolling this shouldn't help by any means
DK 4 piece - either 7.5% hitpoints and 12.5% more healing received for 5s or +20% healing received for 5s every minute

Druid 2 piece - only berserk ability or berserk procc as well? Only ability is a 3 minutes cooldown, well..
Druid 4 piece - so that's +30% healing received and +15% hitpoints every 3 minutes for 20s that cats can bring as well

Paladin 2 piece - less then 5k absorb shield every 8 seconds
Paladin 4 piece - more range and less cooldown (180 -> 120s) on your raidwall, that's mediocre at best

Warrior 2 piece - less then 3k absorb shield every 5 seconds (while tanking!)
Warrior 4 piece - shieldwall goes raidwall, -20% damage every 120s for 6s (-30% every 240s if glyphed)

That's only the numbers, now let's go to a real critic:
- A set bonus should enhance your play, if Blizzard feels the need of more raid cooldowns they should have started giving holy priests one as well to make healers even. Both tanking druids* and Dks lack a raidcooldown, so if Blizzard decides they need one they should get one baseline.
- You can't design encounter around having 4 piece setboni, can you??? Tanks would need to get their tokens first and offpieces would get sharded. What happens if Paragon brings 11 druids again for the heroic boss like they did on heroic Nefarian? All cats can swap to bear form and pop frenzied regeneration. You only need 9 druids to cover the entire fight's timeline, netting you +30% healing received and +15% hitpoints permanent, crazy isn't it? You could even give fury warrior 4 def tokens to have another raid wall if personal damage isn't an issue.
- Why can dk's use their cooldown twice as much as eg a paladin and druids can only use it every third minute? I really don't want that FOTM shit all over again, if Blizzard feels the need for a raidcooldown on every tank make them do the same, eg have every shieldwall getting reduced to 2 minutes and absorb 40% (warrior like), half of that for raid for half the duration.
- Warrior specific, we now have two raidcooldowns that limit our own survivial cooldowns? That's bullshit, period. We already complained a lot about having shield block being a tri-force (physical offensive, physical defensive and magical defensive) and we can often only utilise 2/3 of it, that's bad design. We already complained about not being able to hit last stand without losing a raidcooldown, they could have last stand's talent enhance rallying cry on ourself so we need one button less hotkeyed but even that's to much to ask for.
- What fights can we expect, lots of tankdamage coupled with lots of raiddamage like Nefarians Electrocute or Sinestras third breath, coupled with 8 ticking wrecks? Thus we can still not getting rid of Mirror of broken images? *sigh*

Ending: Coupling raidcooldowns on our own survival cooldowns is a bad idea, we feel punished for trying to save our asses when the raid dies seconds afterwards (eg: paladin's raidwall exclude them, they still have to hit a selfcooldown). Just give us something funny/nifty that's not gamebreaking and enhance the healer's raidcooldowns instead (don't forget about those poor holy ones!) while granting DK's and druid's something baseline to feel on par with raidwall/raidshout. Don't have us to rely on four piece to survive anything again (18s shield wall vs chimeraon heroic anyone? Soaking two additional attacks during feud was superb and we couldn't bring a replacement for a while because healers simply put couldn't handle it).

kopcap
09-25-2011, 06:32 AM
More I think about it more it feels like wrapping passive mitigation into a new foil. In order for it to feel more active, and make us want to think about when we want to use it, it would have to be a fair bit more significant without feeling OP. Which is a damn hard balance to strike without increasing its CD by a fair bit.

swelt
09-25-2011, 10:21 AM
It's a reason to press revenge instead of devastate, so in that respect I think it's fine. I suspect that Blizzard are testing the waters a bit, to see how warriors react to this kind of 'active survival' (which could be used rotationally, or possibly with a bit more finesse to time revenge to land just prior to predictable spikes)

gom
09-25-2011, 12:25 PM
It's a reason to press revenge instead of devastate, so in that respect I think it's fine. I suspect that Blizzard are testing the waters a bit, to see how warriors react to this kind of 'active survival' (which could be used rotationally, or possibly with a bit more finesse to time revenge to land just prior to predictable spikes)

Hm it's kind of a binary thing. The question is if the dps as a tank matters or not. If it does matter then I wouldn't gimp my optimal dps *rotation* (press devastate instead of revenge) for a less then 3k heal every 5s. If dps does not matter at all you could as well contribute that little tiny bit to your survival. But in the end it will probably not matter if you live or die.

I like the idea an the mechanic behind it though

Loganisis
09-25-2011, 01:25 PM
It's a reason to press revenge instead of devastate, so in that respect I think it's fine. I suspect that Blizzard are testing the waters a bit, to see how warriors react to this kind of 'active survival' (which could be used rotationally, or possibly with a bit more finesse to time revenge to land just prior to predictable spikes)

Not a very good one. If they want us to use it, make it something worth using. 2/3 bloodcraze may just beat this out in terms of value. I picked 2/3 bloodcraze because to maximize it's effectivness you're putting 2/2 in Imp Revenge, which I've currently dropped because I've dropped revenge.

Using Airowird's spreadsheet, my average revenge (assuming 2/2 back in Imp Revenge) is going to hit for ~9500 (full vengence). 20% of that is ~1,900 absorb.

I don't see anything stating revenge can't miss, so given 5.89 hit+expertise, still leaving me a ~23% chance to miss (feel free to correct me if revenge can't miss), it's not even going to be every 6 seconds.

I don't see why this is attractive. Saying it's a reason to hit Revenge is like saying Blood Craze's 10% chance to proc a 1.2k/s heal for 5 seconds is worth 3 talent points.... It's not. And it's not.

I like the idea they're playing with it like this, making it more than just a damage dealer. But this is so utterly lackluster... Best case scenario, 8 minute fight. Perfect usage every 6 seconds, you're looking at 80 revenges for 1900*80 = 152,000 total absorb. Or ~317/second if you want to look at it that way.

Now granted, revenge will get bigger in 4.3 as gear increases, but it's just pathetically small.

It would have been much better if it had been something like "Revenge will create an bubble that will absorb damage equal to 20% of your life. Bubble cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds".

So you'd save revenge an unreliable cooldown or something like that.

A couple other 'active' tanking ideas that would make revenge valuable:

2pc: Revenge will slow target's attack speed by 5% (stacks with other effects) for 10 seconds. Or 3 seconds. Or something.Or a 10% chance for 15 seconds...
or
2pc: Revenge will reduce target's attack power by 5% (stacks with other effects) for 10 seconds. Or 3 seconds. Or something. Or a 10% chance for 15 seconds...

Or something like that. But a bubble that might not beat 2/3 bloodcraze for total damage mitigated.... o_O

Tengenstein
09-25-2011, 02:04 PM
My logs show that Revenge does not have any passive expertise/hit so is entirely able to fail to connect up to 21% of the time. I want a reason to press revenge, I really do, and that reason should be "Revenge is Pro", this 2 pc isn't pro, a Shannox Block is what 18k? he's gonna get maybe 2-3 of them off over my Revenge CD so we're talking 45K granted ill avoid a third of those so 30K and my Rev Bubble is gonna stop maybe 2.5k minus 20% for the failures to connect. A 2k bubble against 30k doesn't sound too bad. But the fact I have to spec Revenge for it is totally meh.

Idea's Great. Implementation ruins it.

swelt
09-25-2011, 02:19 PM
I don't see how comparing an ability to a talent choice makes any sense. You don't need to spec into revenge, you would just choose to press it if you want a bit more survival and choose not to press it if you don't care.

I trust when you are mathing this, you are remembering that you will (by definition) be in T13 gear with T13 strength and stamina pools...

Loganisis
09-25-2011, 02:43 PM
Okay, so the ONLY reason you're going to hit Revenge is a 1,900 HP shield? That's complete BS.

IF Revenge was in the neighborhood of Devastate then it might be a reason to hit it. But the only time Rev is in the realm of Dev is if you're Imp Revenge.

But whatever, if a worthless absorb is enough to give you a reason to hit it...

2pc isn't useful. 4pc isn't useful. Blah. Not exactly a high-note for the end of the expansion, but all it means is we have 2 pieces of gear in every tier slot to compare, not trying to figure out which one will be the set breaker.

Tengenstein
09-25-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't see how comparing an ability to a talent choice makes any sense. You don't need to spec into revenge, you would just choose to press it if you want a bit more survival and choose not to press it if you don't care.

True. However without the points in Imp.Rev Rev and its bubble will only be 62.5% of the size they would be with it, so a ~1.3k absorb every 5 seconds, as a panic button are a strategic CD, its not really setting my world alight



I trust when you are mathing this, you are remembering that you will (by definition) be in T13 gear with T13 strength and stamina pools...

No. I'm assuming a t13boss will hit a tank in t13 gear about as hard as a t12 boss hits a tank in t12 gear, and that we're not going to end up with with an increase of 150% of the AP values we have now. For all I know T13 bosses may hit like kittens and we're gonna end up with 40K AP.


finger's crossed Kopcap's right and they be buffing Revenges base damage.

Anyone worked out what the HPS absorb size of the palley version is to comapre?

klausi
09-25-2011, 05:07 PM
Anyone worked out what the HPS absorb size of the palley version is to comapre?
Hits for about 13k without the glyph (+10% damage) and it can't miss (it's still a spell so no dodge/parry, the not-missing part is a recently implemented work around for prot paladin going oom with judgement missing twice in a row). Cooldown is 8 seconds, regulary you delay it for both finisher, crusader strike and avenger's shield, with the 2 piece it also adds an ~ 4k absorb shield, equals to 500 hps (if not delayed, another 10% possible with the glyph). That's not gamebreaking but more reliable thanks to 100% connect chance.

Tengenstein
09-25-2011, 11:02 PM
In that case I can't see them buffing Revenge without buffing Judgement too.

Zellviren
09-26-2011, 03:45 AM
I worked it out the other day; essentially, the cooldowns marry up over two minutes (24 swings to 15) and I rounded Revenge and Judgement up to 12k and 15k respectively, which is very conservative. I forget the exact numbers, but the paladin version is about 10k ahead over that period - hardly gamebreaking, but still. The shields themselves are also bigger due to Judgement hitting harder and getting 30% of a shield instead of 20%, but neither version sets the world on fire.

Reev
09-26-2011, 06:36 AM
Well, it's a pretty damn weak absorb shield, but it has to be. If it were more like a DK's powerful heal/shield, then prot warriors would have to lose their 30/60% reduction block, or DKs would have to be buffed significantly.

So this gives an extremely minor boost to survivability, but the difference in damage between Imp Revenge and Devastate isn't that great, and Revenge now has a side-benefit, if minor. If there are 2 targets, the shield could become a bit more significant. Either way, A shield slam+devastate rotation is boring. At least using Revenge should keep things a bit more interesting.

swelt
09-26-2011, 07:18 AM
Agree with Reev. It's only a set bonus. This isn't going to be the full sum of the active survival model we get in the next expansion, it's just a minor benefit from a 2pc set bonus in which they can test the water. Getting the 4pc is likely to be mandatory, if only because the encounter designers will have taken it into account for hard mode tuning, so it's not like getting the 2pc is a real choice. The only choices are whether you choose to hit revenge when it lights up or just keep mashing devastate (is that really a choice? What tank chooses dps over survival in any meaningful content) and perhaps more importantly, whether the set bonus makes it worth speccing into improved revenge.

Aggathon
09-26-2011, 10:52 AM
I also think you guys are barking up the wrong tree when you're converting this to HPS. This is all discrete, not continuous. I'm still relatively confused why tanks are still looking at the "damage taken over time" model in late Cata. It mattered at the beginning, but more "burst time" and EHP mechanics are quickly becoming more and more important, ESPECIALLY with warriors and shield block. We're able to start gearing back towards the EHP model (at least, all the maths and experience I've done in my spare time points to that, I've just been far to lazy to publish it and deal with people going "WAH WAH WAH BUT EJ SAYS BLAH"), and that's why shield block is soooooo powerful. Imo it's the most powerful cooldown we have.

So... I agree with Reev, it's a nice addition and a reason to use revenge. But don't think of it in terms of HPS, if bosses are hitting for 20-30k we're talking about a 10% damage reduction. To me, that's awesome, especially in terms of absorbs and the EHP model. Is it game breaking? No but it can't be and shouldn't be, it's a 2pc bonus.

As far as shield wall vs. raid wall (LS vs. RC), to me this translates to "WAAAAAA I have to THINK!" that's all tanks DO. It's all about strategy. All you have to do is think before the fight, "okay, do I need to use my shield wall for the raid, if yes, save it, if you absolutely have to use it, have a backup" And if you do use it for your own accord, it only helps healers unless there's absolutely no raid damage going out.

I really like these set bonuses, I'm pretty excited about them. Imo it also depends on how main set vs. offset gear is itemized though. If the main set has a lot of expertise and hit (which could make sense b/c that would increase the effectiveness of the 2pc) to the extent that it's just really poorly itemized and the off pieces are all mastery/parry mastery/dodge, then you may need to make the conscious decision to pass it up. As a raid leader, I really don't have a problem with not everyone wanting set bonuses, because if EVERYONE wants the tier pieces, then it's a real bitch to deal with as far as loot distribution goes.

Idk, I just don't see a problem with these set bonuses and think they're a good thing. All y'all are jumpin' off a bridge for nothin'.

Theotherone
09-26-2011, 11:02 AM
The warrior 4 piece just makes Shield Wall a http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70940 for warriors, with the added benefit that it protects the warrior also.

gom
09-26-2011, 03:23 PM
The warrior 4 piece just makes Shield Wall a http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70940 for warriors, with the added benefit that it protects the warrior also.



- Warrior specific, we now have two raidcooldowns that limit our own survivial cooldowns? That's bullshit, period.

Tengenstein
09-27-2011, 10:21 PM
My main problem with the 2pc is that it pretty much forces me to spec 2 points into Imp.Rev, which is generally where i get the floater points for safeguard or whatever, and that its a band-aid for Revenge, id rather have Revenge be a nice ability and the 2pc bonus be the sugar on the top, i.e. an actual bonus rather than this bribe to use a lacklustre ability.

Maybe its just my attitude but I don't feel that I should be having a major Glyph slot and 2 pc bonuses affect something that plays such a small part of our rotation, Revenge needs some good and tender loving, and this just feel like they got it a rampant rabbit and sent it off to have some fun in the next room.

Loganisis
09-28-2011, 12:31 AM
The warrior 4 piece just makes Shield Wall a http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70940 for warriors, with the added benefit that it protects the warrior also.

The 4pc is a boon to Paragon and other tip-top guilds, for sure. But...

My money is the tank 4pc get's Word of Gloried and changed because Blizzard can't see 2 feet in front of it and will react to tanks QQ that their raid-leader is making them use their biggest damage reducer for the raid and they have less tools to work with.

It's crap design. Either it's a fight like Rhy, where there's mostly AoE and not much burst damage and it's usable, or it's a fight where burst can kill the tank and it's useless for that fight.

****

It's a bonus. I guess if it's there, it'll be fine to use. But I doubt I'll be gunning for it or bidding on tier tokens over classes with more useful bonuses.

Bigbad
09-28-2011, 01:52 AM
Maybe we'll be so godlike with T13 gear that we don't need personal cds.

Tengenstein
09-28-2011, 02:37 PM
So threat and survivabilty are a forgone conclusion? where'd I put my rogue....

swelt
09-29-2011, 03:32 AM
Either it's a fight like Rhy, where there's mostly AoE and not much burst damage and it's usable, or it's a fight where burst can kill the tank and it's useless for that fight.
I'd have thought that Rhyolith was a good example of a fight where the 4pc would be great. In the earlier phases, there are times when the spark tank will be taking high single target, at the same time the raid is taking constant splash, so it's win/win to shield wall. In the final phase, a shield walling a stomp will help the raid and help the tank. win/win. It's like crackle @ nef: you would use shield wall at the same time as you would want a raid cooldown anyway, so having the set bonus is just of benefit.

But looking at old encounters against a T13 set bonus is, of course, daft. Encounter designers are well aware of set bonuses, and vice versa. They WILL be designing raid mechanics around the abilities available to the players. When heroic modes are being designed, they will have raid wide bursts and we will be made to appreciate our set bonus. It won't be by coincidence, but by design.

Airowird
09-29-2011, 05:15 AM
See, I have no problem with designing encounters to include those things, but what I do fear is that the set pieces will then be relatively forced upon the tanks and this can be especially annoying when several pieces don't have the stats you prefer (such as dodge/parry or even a parry/hit piece when you're already trying to reforge parry to dodge)

Tengenstein
09-29-2011, 05:44 AM
The problem I have with designing encounters around having them is that it pretty much means you have to have those 4sets on your tanks to beat those encounters.

swelt
09-29-2011, 06:10 AM
I think Blizzard like that though... they like encouraging players to make choices rather than just assume 4 piece is always best, and they like having soft gates on progression that encourage players to gear up before diving straight in to everything. As a player, I think the former can feel quite satisfying (I'm a big fan of having multiple sets and tweaking gear to fit the fight), the latter can be frustrating but it does make you appreciate having your set that much more.

klausi
09-29-2011, 08:28 AM
encourage players to gear up
What i read: i raid my regular 10m group and i've to solo queue with that LFR tool to get my 4 piece because i can't the pieces in a short time from either PvP Boss (if they are even eligible for dropping tier items) or spending Valor points (Blizz stated we can only get it with raiding). Randomly raiding with 24 strangers, fighting for the tokens of some loot pinatas that might actually won't be THAT easy.. arf! Merging 10/25 Id's was a godsend greatly decreasing my time spent in WoW, if we really need those boni to keep on par with 25m raids (token drops are almost guaranteed over a course of 2-3 weeks, your two-three tanks will have them in no time) on progression fights.. arf² Eg: we had two token heroic chest drops for warriors over a dozen of kills, that's 10 weeks without a drop. Shannox refused to drop paladin panties token until this very week, that's 3 full months without any luck. Now imagine you don't have access to at least the nonheroic versions via VP..

Aggathon
09-29-2011, 08:35 AM
Two things:

1) The plural of 'bonus' is 'bonuses' not boni.

2)
The problem I have with designing encounters around having them is that it pretty much means you have to have those 4sets on your tanks to beat those encounters.

And? You act like this is something Unique, tank gear requirements like resist gear or unblockable gear for H-Anub25, etc. is nothing new. The only difference is that tokens (and 4 set) will have competition. But so what if a tank gets them first, it's just loot and it will drop again. If you're a progression guild pushing the kind of HM content that may need extra raid cooldowns, what's the big deal with gearing out a central person like a tank first? This used to be standard practice.

swelt
09-29-2011, 09:07 AM
I realise that this creates problems, and probably more problems for 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds. I thought I'd read something about the gear acquisition for T13 which was intended to address this... the 'all tier from bosses, mostly offset from VP' thing is somehow intended to help?

klausi
09-29-2011, 09:34 AM
What's the big deal with gearing out a central person like a tank first? This used to be standard practice.
Last tier tanks was last to get their items because healers needed 2 piece rather quickly to keep going without a shard of woe and dps requirements were fairly high through the whole instance encouraging us to give all possible loot to our dps right afterwards. Tank damage was no problem outside of Baleroc and he was totally possible with 372/378 gear. Now we've to blast through normal mode and make decisions based on what we see there, get out of the dungeon journal or via PTR. Wasting only two pieces of t13 tokens on a paladin tank instead of eg a demonology warlock equals to a huge loss in rdps (Doomguard deals ~ 15-18k dps during it's uptime depending on proccs, 2 piece increasing it's uptime by 75% and lowering it's cooldown by 40% - that's 7-10k more dps over a felhunter or a felguard), especially on burst phases like Ragnaros heroic p3 or take two piece of t12 tokens on a warrior tank instead of eg a elemental shaman (permanent Fire Elemental totem, being twice to almost tripple as good as dropping searing totem).

Aggathon
09-29-2011, 09:37 AM
I don't get it, are you arguing for or against gearing certain people first for the overall benefit of the raid?

kopcap
09-29-2011, 10:19 AM
Good guilds gear their DPS first and most. Shorter fights is the best mitigation and mana conservation. Heals and tanks can wait. I try to never bid on drops which core DPS still want.

Aggathon
09-30-2011, 10:58 AM
While I agree and that has been my philosophy, that hasn't been the track record in the past is my point. Most top end guilds in TBC and WotLK geared tanks first. Tank death = wipe, dead DPS do zero DPS (as far as an extra raid cooldown goes).

Now a lot of this is also dependent upon raid mechanics. If there's a boss that you NEED an extra raid cooldown on then gearing the tank is a consideration. If there's not then... who cares? Divide up gear as you normally would.

Hnetto
10-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Am i the only one that see the 4 piece as a good thing? I like the ideia that my cooldown can be used not only on my personal emergencies but also as a raid utility. Since they introduced rallying cry i saved several people from dying by using it on the right moment.

Might be the 10 man mentality on me where the loss of any raid member during the fight is quite a bit hard but in my mind it seems clear that we just gained more utility.

The 2 piece however seems more like Blizzard testing a model for active mitigation. I doubt that they will increase the damage output of revenge to make the shield more viable, but i mostly would bet on a cooldown reduction on it to make it usable more often thus keeping the shield up more often.

Personally i see this reduction as active mitigation. A weak one, but an start on the model change.

Airowird
10-03-2011, 10:55 AM
The problem most tanks have with the 4p boni is that (unless they're a Paladin) they have to sacrifice their own CD to use a raid CD.
If a certain boss tactic requires tanks to use their own personal CD, then you will pop a raid CD regardless if raid is taking damage or not.

Firelands doesn't have a great example, but e.g. a fight like Maloriak provides a situation where you want to use a raid CD (red vial), but will have to consider not being able to use the personal benefit in the near future (e.g. execute/enrage phase)

Pruke
10-03-2011, 06:01 PM
I see they changed paladins/druids 2pc/4pc. Looks like paladins shields going to be 25% and warriors will be 20%. Druids bonus looks decent on paper.

Tengenstein
10-03-2011, 07:32 PM
That doesn't bode well for Revenge.

Kahmal
10-04-2011, 10:24 AM
Sorry, just want to chime in since i just returned to WoW....how is Revenge not viable? With Imp Revenge it does way more damage then Devestate does it not?

Tengenstein
10-04-2011, 10:44 AM
No. Once you take into account Devastate's increased crit rate and thus extra damage from Deep wounds, Revenge's Damage per execute is only about 90% that of Devastate. It one advantage is that it's cheaper, and hits two targets, however in both AoE and single target situations sims show that even in extreme low rage situations (i.e. only using HS/Cleave on average every 6 seconds) it still best to skip Imp.Rev in favour of Thunderstruck. The only point where revenge is really viable right now is if you have 5-14 rage and need to hit a mob with something anything

The T13 2pc actually gives us a reason to use it as part of our standard rotation, but in my opinion its a band aid fix.

Kahmal
10-04-2011, 12:39 PM
No. Once you take into account Devastate's increased crit rate and thus extra damage from Deep wounds, Revenge's Damage per execute is only about 90% that of Devastate. It one advantage is that it's cheaper, and hits two targets, however in both AoE and single target situations sims show that even in extreme low rage situations (i.e. only using HS/Cleave on average every 6 seconds) it still best to skip Imp.Rev in favour of Thunderstruck. The only point where revenge is really viable right now is if you have 5-14 rage and need to hit a mob with something anything

The T13 2pc actually gives us a reason to use it as part of our standard rotation, but in my opinion its a band aid fix.

Is Shockwave still used on Single Target? or is it just Sheild Slam > Dev

Tengenstein
10-04-2011, 12:56 PM
Simple answer: yes

Detailed answer: it depends on your vengeance and the ilvl of your MH weapon and how many stacks of thunderstruck at low vengeance levels Devastate is incredibly powerful due its poor scaling from AP and good scaling from weapon damage.

the Single target optimal rotation now consists of 5 things you should prioritise

1. Shield Slamming
2. Maintaining Rend (assuming the target will live long enough)
3. Shortening the CD of shield slam
4. Trucking; basically using which ever ability produces the most damage/threat
5. Dumping excess rage