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Outbackjack
09-18-2011, 11:38 AM
Just to tip my hat towards the upcoming nerfs to Firelands, but without inciting the wrath of the shoutbox, I figured we could begin separate threads for the discussion of the early Heroic bosses in the Firelands.

Heroic Shannox


Boss Abilities

Shannox


Throw Immolation Trap (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99838): Shannox launches a fiery trap at the feet of a player. The trap takes 2 seconds to arm, and triggers when stepped on thereafter, dealing 52,529 Fire damage immediately and 21,012 Fire damage every 3 sec, and increasing all damage taken by 40% for 9 sec.
Crystal Prison Trap Effect (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99836): Shannox launches a prison trap at the feet of a player. The trap takes 2 seconds to arm, and triggers when stepped on thereafter, encasing the target in a block of magma crystal, preventing all movement or other actions. Only by destroying the crystal prison can a trapped player be freed.
Arcing Slash (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99931): Shannox causes 125% of normal melee damage in a wide arc up to 1 yards in front of him, and inflicts Jagged Tear on those he strikes.
Jagged Tear (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99937): Shannox's Arcing Slash leaves a Jagged Tear that deals 3,000 Physical damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. Stacks.
Hurl Spear (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=100002): Shannox hurls his spear in the direction of his hound Riplimb. The spear deals 126,072 Physical damage to anyone it strikes directly as well as 52,530 Fire damage to all enemies within 50 yards. The spear strike also triggers a cascade of molten eruptions around the impact point, which deal 52,530 Fire damage to enemies that are caught in them. Riplimb will then break off from combat, fetch the spear, and return it to Shannox.
Separation Anxiety (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99835): When the distance between the huntsman and his pets grows too great (~80 yards), both become extremely agitated, increasing their damage and attack speed by 100%. Lasts 4 seconds.



Riplimb
Shannox has two hounds. Riplimb will attack the target with the most threat. In Heroic Difficulty, Riplimb cannot be permanently slain while his master still lives. When his health reaches zero, he will collapse for up to 30 seconds, and then reanimate at full health to resume fighting.



Limb Rip (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99832): Riplimb bites savagely, dealing 175% of normal melee damage to an enemy, and inflicting Jagged Tear on those he strikes.
Jagged Tear (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99937): Riplimb's Limb Rip leaves a Jagged Tear that deals 3,000 physical damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. Stacks.
Feeding Frenzy (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=100656): Both Hounds gain a stacking damage buff when they successfully hit a target with a melee attack. Each stack increases damage done by 10% and the buff lasts for 20 seconds
Separation Anxiety (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99835): When the distance between the huntsman and his pets grows too great (~80 yards), both become extremely agitated, increasing their damage and attack speed by 100%. Lasts 4 seconds.
In Heroic Difficulty Riplimb cannot be permanently slain while his master lives. When his health reaches zero, he will collapse for 30 seconds, and then reanimate at full health to resume fighting.



Rageface
Shannox' second hound. Rageface cannot be controlled, and will dart about from enemy to enemy, changing targets periodically.



Face Rage (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99947): Rageface leaps at a random target, stunning and knocking them to the ground, and begins to viciously claw at them. This mauling initially deals 8,000 Physical damage every 0.50 sec, but the damage dealt increases over time. While so occupied, Rageface is 100% more susceptible to critical strikes (you will crit him when he is Face Raging). Rageface will continue until his target is dead or he receives a single attack that deals at least 40,000 damage.
Feeding Frenzy (http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=100656): Both Hounds gain a stacking damage buff when they successfully hit a target with a melee attack. Each stack increases damage done by 10% and the buff lasts for 20 seconds

Source: Dungeon Journal/Normal Shannox discussion (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?76368-Strategy-Discussion-Shannox)

10 man tanking POV
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I haven't changed the damage numbers from Normal mode yet because I don't truthfully know what they are. I'll update the numbers when I find them.

Outbackjack
09-18-2011, 11:46 AM
A lot of what we learned in this revolves around handling the two dogs differently. The raid itself has to manage Rageface and coordinate with the assigned Face Rage breaker to get him into traps. After trapping Rageface we cleared the area around Rageface for several yards to make sure he couldn't just immediately melee someone coming out of the trap and refresh his Feeding Frenzy buff. And for the love of Pete, keep him away from Immolation Traps when you can to prevent Wary from being applied.

Riplimb kiting, for me, clicked when I figured out how to get the most distance traveled every spear throw. We started with having a Shadow Priest help slow Riplimb but eventually I was able to do it on my own with Piercing Howl and lots of Heroic Leap/Intervene + Charge to Shannox. I haven't tanked Shannox, but I know our Paladin tank has started getting good at "kiting" Riplimb when he's trying to return the spear to Shannox. I'll try to get his exact comments in text to add to this, unless someone else wants to chime in on that.

swelt
09-19-2011, 05:44 AM
Couple of tips:
- Arcing Slash and Limbrip abilities can create nasty bursts on the tank (especially in 25 man). This becomes more of a factor if you didn't manage to reset a dot stack after a spear. Healers need to be aware. Tanks can time minor defensive cooldowns for the moment that shannox gets the spear or the moment when riplimb reaches his tank (e.g. pop shield block just before then to reduce that predictable spike). Never let demo shout or equivalent drop off. This also means that the shannox tank needs to be careful (again, more in 25 man) when kiting shannox away from riplimb not to outrange healers or take too many hits in the back, as once he does catch you he's going to do a big burst.
- Glyph of Long Charge can be handy in this fight.

Kemanorel
09-21-2011, 03:59 AM
As one of my guild's Rageface dog-sitters on heroic, I've noticed it is better to reset his stack of the buff by using distance and avoidance abilities (I'm a hunter, so deterrence) for the majority of the "Rage" fixate and trap him toward the end of the fixate than to run him immediately into a trap, as the damage buff lasts a few seconds longer than he will remain trapped. Also, he won't gain stacks while he is face raging, so sometimes a tick or two of it before breaking can be a smart decision.

I'm noticing that at least for us, the success or wipe on this fight hinges A LOT on dog-sitters doing their job well.

Edit: Also, on heroic, Rageface becomes 1000% more susceptable to critical strikes, according to the tooltip in-game.

Esarael
09-22-2011, 02:04 PM
What Kemanorel said is very much correct. I'm the Rageface trapper on my raid, and as a Mage you have very nice mobility with Blink (and Improved Blink) to allow you to control Rageface's movement and avoid getting hit by him. After breaking Face Rage, you generally have two choices:

1. Trap Rageface right away. In this case, it is very important that you do not allow Rageface to melee you (thus refreshing its stacks) before he is trapped. To that end, ensure you have a safe distance from the trap you're using in order to avoid that tricky lag hit.

2. Do not trap Rageface right away. In this case, you can wait until there's 3~ seconds left on the debuff before trapping Rageface. After the trap breaks, there will be still some time left on his Feeding Frenzy, but he should jump and Face Rage someone very soon after freeing himself. Use that opportunity to break Face Rage and gain a lot of distance from him. His stacks should fall in the time he takes to get to you.

As a mage, you can also Ice Block in an emergency, when there's <10sec left on your debuff that forces Rageface to attack you. He will continue attacking you, but his melee attacks won't refresh his Feeding Frenzy and after Ice Block's has run out he will probably pick another target to attack. This is best done after you have gained some distance from the raid, as it will force him to walk a long path before being able to attack another raid member.

Kerchunk
09-28-2011, 11:03 AM
Our best bet was using a Hunter to babysit Rageface.

It didn't work out well for us. We only gave it about 10 pulls but I think 60% was our best attempt... Face Rage just kept killing folk.

Anyone have any advice for a 10H raid w/ no Mage to assign to this? Is there some advice to give to the Hunter to help him break Face Rage more effectively? Deaths by FR were our #1 issue and I don't know enough about his class abilities to know if it's a strategy issue or Hunter are just not ideal for the job.

swelt
09-28-2011, 11:45 AM
I believe hunters are a common choice for it, because if trapping fails they might also be able to achieve a reset of the buff by using deterrence. In our 10 man, we use a shadowpriest for it. I'd suggest that almost as important as class, is that you pick a player who you can trust.

Outbackjack
09-28-2011, 12:48 PM
I believe hunters are a common choice for it, because if trapping fails they might also be able to achieve a reset of the buff by using deterrence. ... I'd suggest that almost as important as class, is that you pick a player who you can trust.

We started with a Hunter and got our first kill with it, however that Hunter then main-switched to his Paladin and now we have our feral Druid do it (damn well, too). To horribly paraphrase Swelt's last sentence, "bring the player, not the class."

Face Rage will absolutely be the mechanic you have to learn to complete this encounter, once you have that down you will confidently walk into this fight every time. I wish I had better video of our Druid handling Rageface, but he tends to be on the other side of the field from me.

Kemanorel
09-30-2011, 03:15 PM
I get to dog-sit, on my hunter, but I've seen our arcane mage do quite well at it while also maintaining decent dps on shannox as well.

ANY sufficient sized crit can do it, and most classes have some sort of hard-cast nuke that can suffice (casters) and melee can usually manage as well, however a ranged class is preferrable due to his annoying leap, but either redundant melee or one with a charge type effect could probably manage.

As far as getting him to drop the buff, what works best for me is to try and break Face Rage with some distance between me and the mutt, and kite him for a few seconds before trapping, as the stacking buff lasts slightly longer than a trap's duration. Trapping him immediately resulted in lots of, "GTFO Rageface!" on vent, but very rarely stacks being successfully reset.

kasanagi
10-16-2011, 04:44 PM
I had a few attempts on my hunter as the dog sitter, you just have to save Chimera shot for the face rage, since nothing else will instantly do enough damage. Later on we switched to a boomkin and worked out really well with travel from.

Biggest problem with Rageface for our raid had been the immolation traps, anyone have a trick or two to avoid these RNG madness? I've read that you can get Riplimb to take the traps, but since it is being tanked 80 yd from Shannox, I'm not too sure how this is done?

Outbackjack
10-17-2011, 08:49 AM
Riplimb running over Immolation Traps is equal parts luck and planning. The Riplimb tank can somewhat control how Riplimb runs back to him after returning the spear. But it really is just a whole lot of luck if he zigs instead of zags when running near an Immolation Trap.

There are times that we need to have our Rogues disarm some of the Immolation Traps when it really starts getting crowded up near Shannox, keep that in mind if your raid comp allows it and you're running out of options.

Esarael
10-17-2011, 09:22 AM
In my 10man, we don't have access to Rogues, but like outbackjack said, they can disarm traps, every 15sec if I'm not mistaken, and they need not be stealthed to do so. Use them if you're having trouble with Immolation Traps, since this fight is more about control than about DPS.

What I do in my raid is we mark three positions and have the Riplimb tank hold Riplimb on one of the vertices. The Shannox tank alternates between the other two spots, depending on where Rageface is trapped (remember that raid members should get away from Rageface once it's trapped, so that it does not renew Feeding Frenzy as soon as it breaks free from the crystal). I insist on that ranged remain always outside the triangle determined by these 3 vertices, so that the middle area (internal to the triangle) is more or less Immolation Trap-free~, which makes it easier for me to kite Riplimb where I want.

Still, minding your position in relation to other raiders (and naturally, traps) is probably the best you should do. Once again, this is a fight about control, and not DPS.

rwhitmarsh
10-17-2011, 10:13 AM
Myself and a mdps dk take turns eating the traps, as long as u time them smartly between hurl speara and call out to healers when u eat them..this fixed most of our wary problems. Also, if a crystal prison trap happens to get thrown on melee we alert our tank to move shannox about 15 yards to avoid the /sigh accidental puppy trap

Fetzie
10-18-2011, 02:18 AM
We move the boss as soon as any trap spawns in melee range of him.

Alkapwn
10-19-2011, 09:13 PM
My question is for hunters that baby sit Rageface. Can all our little tricks be used to slow him? Concussive shot, Ice Trap and the rooting stuns you get form a PvP spec and from a Spider pet?

Fetzie
10-20-2011, 01:13 AM
You cannot stun Rageface or reduce its movement speed to zero.

Outbackjack
10-20-2011, 06:27 AM
It can be helpful to use pets that can reduce attack speed (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=90314#used-by-npc) or attack power (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=24423), though.

Fetzie
10-20-2011, 06:36 AM
Paladin tanks can take rageface into focus and apply the 20% attackspeed debuff at range by judging it.

BryceE
10-22-2011, 01:41 PM
My guild is having some issues on this fight sadly. Our very first attempt we managed to get it down to 2% and haven't been able to get it there again. Our best attempts are around 20%ish.

We usually have a bear tank riplimb and myself on shannox (pally). I'll wait til I've got like 3-4 stacks of jagged tear then I start kiting shannox while rip is returning the spear and all I hear on vent is stop moving the boss, we can't dps him -_-. That's currently the only way I can get my stacks to drop off. If I listen to what they say on vent my stacks never drop off. Same for the rip tank.

And our ranged seems to be unable to get any of the 30k crits needed to break face rage or they don't get away in time when rage is frozen to reset the stacks on him. We'll notice his stacks are really like .2s from resetting and boom he leaps on someone and resets them.

Our makeup 99% of the time is the following:

Bear
Prot Pally
Disc Priest
Resto Druid
Resto Shammy
MM Hunter x2
BM Hunter
Shadow Priest
Destro/Aff Lock

All our dps is anywhere from 19k-27k at the end of the fight.

Esarael
10-22-2011, 05:05 PM
Leave one hunter at Rageface duty and one as backup. Observe that when Rageface leaps, and while he is Face Raging, he does not gain stacks of Feeding Frenzy. You should have your raiders use Rageface of focus so that when he fixates on someone and his stacks are about to fall off, that person can kite him just enough for his Feeding Frenzy stacks to fade. Also, when he is trapped, everyone should move away from the Crystal Prison.

Tanks have to kite dogs/Shannox on his fight; tell your DPS to position themselves better and deal with it. This fight is all about control, not really about DPS; with that much DPS, you're not really getting close to the Enrage timer.

BryceE
10-22-2011, 06:24 PM
We're all having a fight about we need to farm normals some more for better gear, but we're not hitting the enrage or no where near hitting it so I think it's just a mechanics issues they, however, do not think its that.

And I thought face rage kinda froze the person in place for like 3 seconds, how are they going to kite if they can't move o.o.

aresius
10-22-2011, 08:57 PM
Tanks have to kite dogs/Shannox on his fight; tell your DPS to position themselves better and deal with it.
False.
Our method is to tank shannox and riplimp *very* far apart (one healer that can heal one of the tanks is not in range for the other). Our prot warrior on riplimp, when seeing the spear throw, heroic leaps and intervines twards me. The dog follows him untill in melee range before going back for the spear. In this moment he is running back he is vulnerable to slows. Our mage slows the dog. By the time he gets to the spear, and back to shannox both my stacks and the warriors reset. I didint move at all.
Naturally, you dont have a prot warrior or a mage in your composition, but you can work around and keep a similar strat. Have the priest lifegrip your bear and them have him charge to shannox when spear is thrown. Have the lock or S priest slow him.
The idea is to have the riplimp tank get his dog as far away from the spear as possible before the dog turns to get it, enhancing slow time on the dog. If you dont have that slow time this fight is chaos. Melee dps cant dps at all if you keep kiting the dog and their complaint is valid, your not preforming the fight as intended.

BryceE
10-22-2011, 11:41 PM
100k tonight and we essentially 7 manned it with all the DCs we had tonight =/. DK on rip myself on shannox. If our two healers wouldnt of went to try and dps and kept me up we would of killed it :(

Esarael
10-23-2011, 08:41 AM
Notice aresius that all his DPS is ranged, so that good positioning and smart kiting ensure that DPS downtime is minimal and essentially a nonissue. Also, while what you said about Prot Warriors is true (and the Warrior himself can handle the slowing with Charge and Piercing Howl/Stance dance and Hamstring), they don't have Prot Warrriors.

And while you could try to partially reproduce that with a Priest, Lifegrip does have a 1.5min CD so that it would only be doable every 3 Hurl Spears. You will probably need to kite at some point in between, if anything if the Lifegrip~ goes wrong. Kiting is a foolproof strategy that might bring your DPS down a little - but since this does not have a tight enrage timer or any kind of soft enrage mechanics, I'd say go for the control route.

If you have a DK that could tank Riplimb, I'd say it's a nice choice since he can easily handle the slowing of Riplimb with Chains of Ice himself. Notice that this is important; when the spear lands, Riplimb will be vulnerable to slows and this maximizes the time it takes for him to get to Shannox. It is true that Riplimb recovers steadily from the slow, but it makes a huge difference even then. Since we don't use any of the mobility strategies listed above, we find that we still need to do some kiting, even though they're tanked at max range from each other (you should do that!).

BryceE
10-23-2011, 10:21 AM
What is max range though? We've tried 90yds, 80yds on heroic and we'll still get separation warnings for em.

Charon
10-23-2011, 10:47 AM
60 yards is the range that triggers Separation Anxiety, so I'd stop around 55 or so just to be safe. That gives you tons of range for slowing Riplimb, plus a safe distance.

Esarael
10-23-2011, 11:04 AM
80 yards, not 60.

BryceE
10-23-2011, 02:15 PM
Any addons that will tell you if you're getting to far or how many yards apart you are?

aresius
10-23-2011, 04:10 PM
Notice aresius that all his DPS is ranged, so that good positioning and smart kiting ensure that DPS downtime is minimal and essentially a nonissue.
In truth i didnot notice that. Perhaps you could pull it off.


Also, while what you said about Prot Warriors is true (and the Warrior himself can handle the slowing with Charge and Piercing Howl/Stance dance and Hamstring), they don't have Prot Warrriors.
I made clear i noticed they do not have a protwarrior.



And while you could try to partially reproduce that with a Priest, Lifegrip does have a 1.5min CD so that it would only be doable every 3 Hurl Spears.
He mentioned 2 priests, one discipline and one shadow. If its possible for a shadow priest to grip (I honestly dont know), it would be more often.


You will probably need to kite at some point in between, if anything if the Lifegrip~ goes wrong.
I dont beleive the MT should NOT kite if things are going wrong. Ofcourse he should try to drop his stacks. Im stating that a strategy based on Kiting is flawed and unellegant. Speaking of unellegant, we once had our regular slower mage miss a raid and had someone fill in. He didint catch on to what he had to do imediatly and i wasent expecting to need to kite around and let my stacks go high. We found out that our healers could keep me up easly with 8 stacks. Honestly, if you only reset them every other spear throw thats fine. Might not be clean. Might not be ideal, but the boss will die.


Kiting is a foolproof strategy that might bring your DPS down a little - but since this does not have a tight enrage timer or any kind of soft enrage mechanics, I'd say go for the control route.
Well, if sometime they end up having 2 melee dps in the group they will have to re-learn the fight.I beleive movement and positioning is the most difficult part of the game. All fights considered "hard" require the raid to have coordinated movement from one side to another and i beleive that is what makes it difficult.
Introducing unnecissary movement is plain bad. If there is a way to keep the boss static, you should learn to do it that way.
As a tank you can LOS a healer around a rock, getout of healer range, bring the boss away from dps range,step on a trap you didint see or simply stop for a slit second and not reset your stacks.
You can argue anything above is avoidable, a screw up, bad tanking. Its also avoidable by simply not kiting the boss around. I beleive even good players make mistakes, and a good strategy minimizes the amount of things you need to worry about.
The absolute last thing id call this "strategy" (I see it as brute forcing the fight) is "failproof".

Charon
10-23-2011, 07:00 PM
80 yards, not 60.

I was basing my advice on that of the original post, which appears to have been copied from the dungeon journal itself. If it was incorrect, that's fine. My apologies! But that also means the OP was incorrect, as was Blizzard. The following is copied from the original post to serve as citation.

Separation Anxiety (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99835): When the distance between the huntsman and his pets grows too great (~60 yards), both become extremely agitated, increasing their damage and attack speed by 100%. Lasts 4 seconds.

Esarael
10-24-2011, 02:14 PM
It is perhaps 60 in Normal mode Charon; following your link, on the comments section, user murdershot21 states that "Both dogs and Shannox gain this when any of them are 60(80 Heroic) yards away from each other".

Also aresius, a Shadow Priest can Lifegrip and that was an oversight of mine. That makes it a pretty viable strategy. Kiting might be unelegant, yes, but I've found it to be highly effective in general simply because DPS is an absolute nonissue on this fight. Having the boss stand still might be great for the first minute or so and your melee DPS will be happy during that time, but traps will start to pile up on close range of the boss and it will make life harder for both your melee DPS and for your Rageface trapper (as one of them, I can say it's absolutely awful when a crystal prison trap is surrounded by immolation traps).

I guess each strategy has its pros and cons, and you should probably experiment and see what's best for your group/comp. We did initially try that, having both a Discipline Priest and a Protection Warrior on our group, but it didn't work out very well due to us having almost no snares available and generally the Warrior screwing up the Heroic Leap/Intervene/(Charge/Intercept) + Piercing Howl/Hamstring combo.

aresius
10-25-2011, 03:53 AM
We actualy did try the kiting strat when we first started working on him. We wiped 6 times with that and after a couple of trys with the static strat we nailed him, hence why i hate the kiting strat so much, it was terrible for us. I can understand groups vary, do whatever works for you guys i guess.
Our warrior is awesome (although me and him have a little inside joke we keep calling eachother fail), and got the leap/interviene right away, only downside i see in the static strat once its all going as expected is its boring as hell for the MT. "Stand still. move out of a trap. Drag shann a bit away from this crystal trap. That guy might need a HoP... nevermind, rageface is off him. etc etc."
A side note:expecting the warrior to do the slows himself is kinda harsh. As far as i know piercing howl is a talent in the fury tree, even if its reachable while in prot spec, he would sacrifice alot to get it and need to respec, and hamstring is only usable in battle stance. It really helps if its a dps, preferably a mage, and preferably the same one thats on ragefaces crit hit duty.

Rowdy
10-25-2011, 10:37 AM
Referring to it as "kiting strategy" sounds too respectable to me, to be honest ;) We didnīt use it because we kinda expected Blizzard to fix this, because it is just ludacris, has nothing to do with managing the ecounter mechanics and we didnīt want to practice somethign that felt so much like exploiting a mechanic. But since Blizzard seems to be okay with people dragging Shannox around for 15+ seconds, it is a viable way to do the boss, I suppose.

I think it is the most stable way to do this fight if you donīt have a Warrior as the tank for Riplimb.


A side note:expecting the warrior to do the slows himself is kinda harsh. As far as i know piercing howl is a talent in the fury tree, even if its reachable while in prot spec, he would sacrifice alot to get it and need to respec, I donīt think the Warrior loses anything significant. The only reason I donīt use this spec anymore for everything is that I need every point of damage on Ragnaros heroic. Other than that, there is no reason imo not to spec this way, you only loose Deep Wounds (~5% DPS) and 1 point in War Academy/Incite (meh).

kibuzo
10-27-2011, 03:22 PM
Hi all.
I'm having BIG issues resetting jagged tear stacks on shannox.
First of all... i don't know if my raid lockout got bugged, the boss got fixed or what, but i can ensure you that jagged tear lasts 36 seconds instead of the 30 seconds that i see on this guide, I might be able to post a screen within a week to prove that (since we are probably going to go normal on monday to clear all farming bosses before reset).
Then we get to the real issue. I'm tanking shannox 80yd far from riplimb, i also made some calculations on character's speed so that 80yds seems to be the space that you travel in 10 seconds (a little more, actually), and that is where i put the markers to remember where is 80 yds. After shannox throws his spear, the offtank runs away (being able to kite riplimb like 5-10 yds out of the fiery spiral left by shannox' spear before the spear can land), then riplimb get slowed by a shadow priest from then till riplimb gets 40 yards away from the shadow priest. We use a rogue with poisons to slow riplimb just in case the shadow priest gets out of range.
Now the real pain. If i don't kite shannox the spear is delivered when i have around 15 seconds before the debuff falls off, even when kiting i rarely get past 3 secs to fall off, that is like if riplimb needed 200 (two hundred!!) yards to reset the stacks WHEN SLOWED, that just seems too much.
I browsed the internet for answers, and i could find nothing more than "OMG, SHANNOX IS SO ISY, MORE THAN NORMAL MODEZ OMG OMG!!" and i assume it might be true for somebody, but i'm currently having HUGE issues on this thing. More serious threads speak about debuff being able to be reset with "a little" kiting, without even trapping riplimb... i've been a tank since TBC and that is not "a little" kiting but the most hardcore kiting i have ever tried. It never even worked.
Then, at the very end of my search, i found this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYjHfpHMPUw
A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYjHfpHMPUw)s i stated on the youtube comment... it really does not seem to work. I tried it for like an hour and yes, shannox moves like that, but no, riplimb doesn't. It gets to shannox, gives him the spear, watches me like if i was an idiot, gets to offtank and waits for me to die.
I'm getting really frustrated at this boss and i'm not able to find an answer that looks good, everybody seems to do it in a different way from each other but they all agree on the fact that is "easy", while it's really the first boss that seems hard on the entire normal/heroic content i've met on cataclysm since now. I must be missing something, but i don't understand what.
Thanks for the help, i really appreciate that.

Outbackjack
10-27-2011, 07:30 PM
Hi all.
I'm having BIG issues resetting jagged tear stacks on shannox.
First of all... i don't know if my raid lockout got bugged, the boss got fixed or what, but i can ensure you that jagged tear lasts 36 seconds instead of the 30 seconds that i see on this guide, I might be able to post a screen within a week to prove that (since we are probably going to go normal on monday to clear all farming bosses before reset).

I'd like to see that screenshot.



Then we get to the real issue. I'm tanking shannox 80yd far from riplimb, i also made some calculations on character's speed so that 80yds seems to be the space that you travel in 10 seconds (a little more, actually), and that is where i put the markers to remember where is 80 yds. After shannox throws his spear, the offtank runs away (being able to kite riplimb like 5-10 yds out of the fiery spiral left by shannox' spear before the spear can land), then riplimb get slowed by a shadow priest from then till riplimb gets 40 yards away from the shadow priest. We use a rogue with poisons to slow riplimb just in case the shadow priest gets out of range.
Now the real pain. If i don't kite shannox the spear is delivered when i have around 15 seconds before the debuff falls off, even when kiting i rarely get past 3 secs to fall off, that is like if riplimb needed 200 (two hundred!!) yards to reset the stacks WHEN SLOWED, that just seems too much.
..snip..
Then, at the very end of my search, i found this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYjHfpHMPUw
A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYjHfpHMPUw)s i stated on the youtube comment... it really does not seem to work. I tried it for like an hour and yes, shannox moves like that, but no, riplimb doesn't. It gets to shannox, gives him the spear, watches me like if i was an idiot, gets to offtank and waits for me to die.

By all rights what you're describing is the correct way to do it. I can only comment on what my own guild is doing, which you can obviously see in the video, which does use a little bit of kiting by the Shannox tank but nothing very extreme unless I fail at slowing (which happens more often than I'd like to admit). Perhaps the slowing on your Riplimb isn't quite up to snuff?

If your Rageface handler is doing a stellar job with getting Rageface trapped you should have an extra Crystal Prison Trap lying around every now and then, you could take advantage of that to trap Riplimb and remove the Jagged Tear stacks that way. Don't count on that happening all the time, though.

aresius
10-27-2011, 07:40 PM
@kibuzo - the timing your discribing is exactly the timing we get if he is not slowed at all.
I think your groups is just getting slows wrong. You have to keep in mind that riplimb is *immune* to slows (he gets the debuff but it doesent reduce movement speed) exept when he is running to grab the spear shannox just threw. All slows have to happen after the offtank ran away from the spear impact point and riplimp is turning to go for the spear.
Get the slows right and this fight will be faceroll.

kibuzo
10-28-2011, 05:02 AM
I'll try to double check the slows, but as a raid leader i can tell you that i already checked. We surely miss something sometimes, but there has been times when riplimb seemed to be slowed from the very start. I really hope we are missing something "there" because it would be really dramatic if we would wipe on perfect executions of the encounter.
I know that 90% of times someone calls out for a bug when it isn't a bug, so i'd be careful before saying "ok, boss was bugged, blizzard's fault, i'll create a ticket", but i'm absolutely 100% sure that the debuff lasted 36 seconds from when it was applied for two nights (so even after resets), i might not be good at english but i definitely can read integers well. You will see a screenshot tho, i'll probably force one more heroic try on monday just to make it.
And, last but not least, riplimb ALWAYS got to shannox after sprinting. It should mean that he took a lot of time to come to him, since his debuff grows on time, not on space, right?
Thanks again.

kibuzo
10-28-2011, 05:43 PM
Hi again and sorry for double posting.
Here you have a partial proof of what i'm saying about stacks lasting 36 seconds.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/analyze/dt/spell/?target=7&s=3110&e=3150
S (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/analyze/dt/spell/?target=7&s=3110&e=3150)et filtering to None so that you can easily see when the hits occour without any softening, and uncheck boring melee hits. Fifola takes one limb rip, then eleven hits from jagged tear which occours every 3 seconds, for a total of "at least" 33 seconds of "effective" debuff uptime. I don't know how this buff works exactly but i guess it some time before first tick; resolution of 1000 ms tells us that it does not tick "immediately" but at least one second later, so 33 seconds of damaging debuff could actually result in 36 seconds of debuff uptime.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/analyze/dt/spell/?target=7&s=3113&e=3145 Here fifola gets 11 ticks of jagged tear with no limb rip at all!
This is all i can show you until i get a screenshot.

Fetzie
10-29-2011, 06:31 AM
[00:53:07.565] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') casts Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') on Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash')
00 [00:53:07.704] Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') afflicted by Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101219/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') from Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')
01 [00:53:07.760] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') 39632
02 [00:53:11.130] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
03 [00:53:13.731] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
04 [00:53:17.132] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
05 [00:53:19.779] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') casts Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') on Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash')
06 [00:53:19.846] Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') afflicted by Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101219/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') (2) from Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')
07 [00:53:19.963] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
00 [00:53:19.964] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') 44835
01 [00:53:22.905] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
02 [00:53:26.113] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
03 [00:53:28.944] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
04 [00:53:31.797] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
05 [00:53:35.037] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
06 [00:53:38.014] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Absorb (6120)
07 [00:53:40.771] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
08 [00:53:44.029] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
09 [00:53:46.969] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
10 [00:53:50.125] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
11 [00:53:52.636] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')'s Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101219/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') fades from Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br />
or<br /><br />
spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')

The difficulty in analysing when a spell should run out when it gets refreshed every 10 seconds is that the "tick timer" is not resetted when the spell is refreshed. However we can see when the damage increases in the quanta defined by the DoT's damage. Jagged Tear increases in increments of about 3000 damage. So let's look at this combat log excerpt. The start of the DoT is fairly obvious - it happens at [00:53:07.704]and the first tick is at [00:53:11.130].

You said the tank has 1 second latency. This means that the time stamps are only really accurate to this degree of accuracy (it also means that your tank should go read the sticky in the Tech section about reducing his ping, personally I would consider 1000 ms latency unplayable).

The DoT is refreshed at [00:53:19.846] when Shannox performs his second Arcing Slash. We start counting the duration from this point. The first tick of the refreshed Jagged Tear occurs at [00:53:22.905], dealing 6120 damage. The final damage tick is at [00:53:50.125] ticking 10 times over 30 seconds.

Tengenstein
10-29-2011, 06:55 AM
Has anyone else noticed you can force reset your stacks? no slows if you just run in a large circle kiting Shannox once Riplimp is almost brought the spear back Riplimp keeps doing his little charge back to Shannox, but because Shannox isn't where he charged too he has to to it again and again and again.

Fetzie
10-29-2011, 07:04 AM
We tried it once, but reckoned it wasn't worth the effort learning a new strategy when we already had one that worked

Outbackjack
10-29-2011, 08:22 AM
We also do that to a certain degree when we're having a piss poor time of resetting stacks, but only when its really necessary. You run the risk of walking over top of other traps this way.

kibuzo
10-29-2011, 04:38 PM
[00:53:07.565] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') casts Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') on Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash')
00 [00:53:07.704] Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') afflicted by Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101219/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') from Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')
01 [00:53:07.760] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') 39632
02 [00:53:11.130] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
03 [00:53:13.731] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
04 [00:53:17.132] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
05 [00:53:19.779] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') casts Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') on Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash')
06 [00:53:19.846] Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') afflicted by Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101219/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') (2) from Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')
07 [00:53:19.963] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 2754
00 [00:53:19.964] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Arcing Slash (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101202/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash') 44835
01 [00:53:22.905] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
02 [00:53:26.113] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
03 [00:53:28.944] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
04 [00:53:31.797] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
05 [00:53:35.037] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
06 [00:53:38.014] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Absorb (6120)
07 [00:53:40.771] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
08 [00:53:44.029] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
09 [00:53:46.969] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
10 [00:53:50.125] Unknown Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/99936/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') 6120
11 [00:53:52.636] Shannox (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/39/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')'s Jagged Tear (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/spell/101219/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a') fades from Tubolinag (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/details/0/?s=5359&e=5614&x=spell+%3D+'Arcing+Slash'+and+targetName+%3D+'Tub onilag'<br /><br /><br />or<br /><br /><br />spell+%3D+'Jagged+Tear'+and+targetName+!%3D+'Fifol a')

The difficulty in analysing when a spell should run out when it gets refreshed every 10 seconds is that the "tick timer" is not resetted when the spell is refreshed. However we can see when the damage increases in the quanta defined by the DoT's damage. Jagged Tear increases in increments of about 3000 damage. So let's look at this combat log excerpt. The start of the DoT is fairly obvious - it happens at [00:53:07.704]and the first tick is at [00:53:11.130].

You said the tank has 1 second latency. This means that the time stamps are only really accurate to this degree of accuracy (it also means that your tank should go read the sticky in the Tech section about reducing his ping, personally I would consider 1000 ms latency unplayable).

The DoT is refreshed at [00:53:19.846] when Shannox performs his second Arcing Slash. We start counting the duration from this point. The first tick of the refreshed Jagged Tear occurs at [00:53:22.905], dealing 6120 damage. The final damage tick is at [00:53:50.125] ticking 10 times over 30 seconds.

Actually, i see jagged tear (2) ticking 11 times over 32.672 seconds of debuff uptime here... anyway wow raid journal states that the debuff lasts 30 seconds, not that it ticks 10 times, so even this time it seems bugged (and the problem is with resetting the debuff, not with taking 11 instead of 10 ticks really...), so when it comes to reset the stack i have that my jagged tear has more than 32 seconds before resetting (i clearly saw 36, i don't know why here it is not even an integer number :P), no matter how hard the first nor the last ticks hits.
And, again, on my post it ticks 11 times on fifola, over more thatn 34 seconds.
Nobody has 1000ms latency, personally i am around 40ms latency, the 1000ms is just the scale of the graph, it really looks like you didn't even check my links, did you?

Fetzie
10-29-2011, 05:16 PM
The tick at 00:53:19.963 is still a 1-stack Jagged Tear, as it does the same damage as the ticks before it. the "new" debuff begins with the next tick, at 00:53:22.905. The debuff is very definitely NOT 36 seconds, otherwise it would be nigh impossible to reset the stacks at the throw without a perfectly timed trap, 100% slow uptime and flawless boss movement.

Combatlogs have a certain lag, that is why things like the application of damage after an ability usage (see the slash and the 0.1 seconds it takes for the damage to register) can be a bit off.

And how would I have got into your combatlog to filter out that data without using your link, and therefore looking at the graph? As for the 1000 ms, I must have misread your post, sorry about that.

kibuzo
10-29-2011, 05:25 PM
so why on other logs i see stuff like

[22:07:20.653] Calgacus afflicted by Jagged Tear (2) from Riplimb
[22:07:21.056] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 12240
[22:07:23.957] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 12240
[22:07:26.809] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 12240
[22:07:30.029] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 12240
[22:07:32.897] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 6785 (A: 5455)
[22:07:36.080] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 3958 (A: 8282)
[22:07:39.052] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 12240
[22:07:41.821] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 10618 (A: 1622)
[22:07:45.111] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 6183 (A: 6057)
[22:07:47.993] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 4067 (A: 8173)
[22:07:50.663] Riplimb's Jagged Tear fades from Calgacus

so that the debuff seems to be fading after 30 secs from when it is applied and it NEVER fades 30 sec after first tick?

Fetzie
10-29-2011, 05:30 PM
In your log, the slash comes directly after (i.e. within a tenth of a second) of the bleed tick. When it refreshes the duration it doesn't restart the timer between the ticks, which is about every 3 seconds. Therefore the DoT in your log lasts for 32-ish seconds, whereas the DoT in that other log lasts 30 seconds.

kibuzo
10-29-2011, 05:35 PM
i'm not having difficulties with the dot, i'm having difficulties with the debuff lasting to long and being unable to reset.
Look at this:

[22:04:56.493] Calgacus afflicted by Jagged Tear from Riplimb
[22:04:59.829] Unknown Jagged Tear Calgacus 4887 (A: 1233)
[...]
[22:05:26.450] Riplimb's Jagged Tear fades from Calgacus
(sorry for cut, this board does not seem to allow me pasting more than one line at a time (?) )
The dot does not refresh his timer, ok, but the debuff lasts 30 seconds no matter of when the first tick occours. You can probably agree with me that we are seeing a strange behaviour there, and i don't think that this dude had 3000ms of lag...

Quinafoi
10-31-2011, 07:45 AM
If you are only dealing with a single application of the debuff, then yes, it has a 30 second duration (which is what your second example showing exactly 30 seconds shows). If the debuff is renewed however its duration is 30 seconds + current tick remaining. This bahavior applies to all damage or healing over time abilities and was a fundamental mechanic change applied in the 4.0 patch.


Test it yourself.

On a low level character with no talents or gear affecting haste, a Druid for example gets Moonfire at level 4.

The base duration of Moonfire is 12 seconds with a 2 second tick frequency. If you cast it once on a target you will see exactly 6 ticks of the DoT in your combat log following the initial cast. Now if you cast it a second time before the debuff expires, you will see 7 ticks of the debuff after your second cast. This is because the renewal of the debuff increased the duration by 12 seconds beyond the current tick. Current tick is not lost.


Since this is a change at the core level of combat mechanics and how these auras function, they apply to all auras (from players or NPCs).

kibuzo
10-31-2011, 03:02 PM
If you are only dealing with a single application of the debuff, then yes, it has a 30 second duration (which is what your second example showing exactly 30 seconds shows). If the debuff is renewed however its duration is 30 seconds + current tick remaining. This bahavior applies to all damage or healing over time abilities and was a fundamental mechanic change applied in the 4.0 patch.

Confirmed. I think it should stand on tactics too, as a little reminder, but it's up to you.
After the GM told us that he would have tried to see if something was wrong with our raid, the biggest number i could see on stacks, one hour ago, was like 32 seconds (even tho they are not usually able to interfere with raids, maybe we just got unlucky? or the reset worked as when we had maloriak adds not ever dropping their debuff on green phase?). In fact this time i had no problem AT ALL on resetting stacks, i actually managed to reset them all times. Also, the stupid bug with riplimb not being able to return his spear worked a little bit (like for 3-4 times, then he returned it).
Thanks for the help everybody.

Outbackjack
10-31-2011, 05:32 PM
Glad you got it sorted out. :)

snifit
11-10-2011, 04:57 PM
A note for people who didn't notice this week--it seems as if Blizzard fixed Riplimb's spear return. Kiting Shannox while Riplimb tries to catch up is not viable any more.