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pulled
09-11-2011, 10:35 PM
So was taken a look at back enchants and was thinking about using 20 fire resist over the 250 armor. was wondering your thoughts

http://www.wowhead.com/item=38969

(http://www.wowhead.com/item=38969)http://www.wowhead.com/item=52767


(http://www.wowhead.com/item=52767)

Loganisis
09-12-2011, 12:32 AM
250 armor. Unless you're in a progression fight where that 20 fire resist takes you up to the next tier of guaranteed resistance.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

If that 20 resist doesn't get you from one tier to another, raid buffed, it's not going to be any help unless a CD like Aura Mastery pushes it past, and then only for that time that Aura Mastery is active.

So check your raid-buffed fire resistance. If it's not with 20 of the next tier (I don't know if the levels are player levels or against mob levels--- hopefully I'll learn something here) - then it's pretty much a wasted enchant except for maybe a CD like Aura Mastery.

Martie
09-12-2011, 12:48 AM
I thought they dropped resistance tiers a long time ago.

Fetzie
09-12-2011, 02:58 AM
IIRC there are still "tiers" or resistance, but they are now much closer together. Before you had the 25, 50 and 75% thresholds, now it is more like 5% increments.

As for the enchant, I cannot think of a boss that would rate fire resistance over armor. The closest I can get in the current tier is Baleroc, although the fire damage phases are even then only about a quarter or a third of the fight.

pulled
09-12-2011, 03:27 AM
Ya, Well if you look at rag with a consistent fire debuff. Its also a consideration of smoothing damage further. All block dodge parry and armor is helping the physical. Utilizing all possible areas to help midagate magic even if the total amount of magic damage is less may prove helpful.


spider also has huge and significant fire damage.

Fetzie
09-12-2011, 03:40 AM
Can you resist the damage from Burning Wound? Can you resist Ember Flare? I'm not 100% sure on either.

Peca
09-12-2011, 03:43 AM
As warrior you don't need that enchant ,cause you have shield block + TB trinket.As paladin even less DP+TB trinket,same is for DKs,for bears I dont know tbh.But all magical dmg from bosses if we exclude spider boss (cant be resisted aoe) is not something that is looking as spam of spells on tank.

Fetzie
09-12-2011, 03:46 AM
Burning Wound damage is pretty low anyway, 20 resistance isn't going to make any noticeable difference whatsoever. Reducing trap explosion damage on the other hand is something you have tol'barad trinkets for.

pulled
09-12-2011, 03:50 AM
Hmmm, well burning wound is close to 100 percent uptime while physical is 50 percent uptime. Also there is the explosions in p2. I haven't made my mind up either way tbh

klausi
09-12-2011, 04:39 AM
Burning Wound damage is pretty low anyway, 20 resistance isn't going to make any noticeable difference whatsoever. Reducing trap explosion damage on the other hand is something you have tol'barad trinkets for.
The fight consists of about 50% fire damage on the tanks on both normal and heroic mode, slightly more on heroic obviously.

Traps, tanking debuff, seed's explosion, add's melee hit, melee and ranged kick, superheated (p4), lava bolts (shooting around all the time during intermission), dreadflame (p4).

195 resistance - aura/totem
90 resistance - elixir
20 resistance - enchant

isn't enough to reach another "breakpoint", according to Loganisis link it's
196
252
316
so you'll have to use elixir + aura and don't need to bother with the back enchant unless you're willing to enchant your head as well (if those enchants even exists any longer, i'm not entirely sure about that).

swelt
09-12-2011, 10:37 AM
There were resist enchants added in wrath: http://www.wowhead.com/item=44141

I suppose if you used both, that'd be 195+90+20+25=330 which takes you to average 30% / minimum 20% resist bracket?

Martie
09-12-2011, 10:48 AM
Seriously - this talk about breakpoints is confusing. What is meant by it, and where are the numbers supporting any breakpoint?

Loganisis
09-12-2011, 11:04 AM
Break point - the point at which X rating will finally give Y benefit. For example - 2005 haste is a break point for resto druids, it's when they get another tick on one of their spells.

In this context, a break point is when you reach another incriment of guaranteed reduction. From the link I posted earlier:
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/



Resistance Values (Rounded to the first decimal)
Average Damage Reduction \ Levels 85
5% 30.9
10% 65.3
15% 103.7
20% 146.9
25% 195.8
30% 251.8
35% 316.3
40% 391.7
45% 480.7
50% 587.5
55% 718.1
60% 881.3
65% 1091.1
70% 1370.8
75% 1762.5


So you need 196 resistance to average 25% magic reduction, but any individual resist could be from 15% to 35%.
Reistance from 197 to 251 is esseintially 'wasted' stince it doesn't give you any benefit (unless you're right that's its pure scaling and not tiered - though I don't recall anything saying it's isn't tiered anymore).

So in the case of pulled:
Totem/Aura = 195
Elixir = 90

So he has 285 resistance rating. That the 30% average (20-40% on any individual resist). To reach the next 'breakpoint' where there's a noticeable benefit he needs 317-285 = 32 more resistance.

In this case the 20 cloak enchant wouldn't actually buy him anything as it doesn't get him any additional reduction, he's still in the same tier.

In the event of Aura Mastery with a Pally Aura up - 390 + 90 = 480, which is just below the 45% tier, so the cloak enchant would only be valuable when a pally uses Aura Mastery (as it would take him from the 40% tier into the 45% tier).

***

Again though - this is with the caveat that I'm still under the belief that MR is tiered.

pulled
09-12-2011, 02:09 PM
would it change anything to know i am alchemist that uses resist elixer?

and if this does push me over. alchemy is probably bis atm am I right? At least for h rag progression

pulled
09-12-2011, 02:31 PM
Confirmed I am 320 fire resist.

it wont affect aura mastery it will put me at 515.

i think we broke the game, alch bis


we should also take a look at the leatherworking enchant.

Airowird
09-13-2011, 03:14 AM
People are mixing up 2 parts of the resistance here:

Average reduction (as linked in the table) is pretty linear, it will help for every point of resistance.
The breakpoints are when you guarantee a certain amount of reduction every time.
To compare to Haste:
Average resistance is like cast haste, it's always better.
Breakpoint resistance values are like hots/dots: It adds a chunk, then does nothing.

If you're looking at breakpoint values (which is the only useful point of resistance for tanks, as magic is only a small part of the damage you take, it just comes in big chunks), you need to check the formula of P(X) :

P(X) = 0.5 - 2.5 * (DR - X) with DR = Res / (Res + Cr)
Set P(X) to 0.00% and fiddle around with that, you should get...
Res = (5X + 1) / (4 - 5X) * Cr
So if you want to know the breakpoint for a 20% minimum resistance, fill in X = 0.15
The formula will tell you exactly at which point you'll never get 15% reduction anymore (thus always 20% or higher)
At a Cr of 724 for lvl88 spells, you get following table:
Min reduction > resistance required
5% > 181
10% > 242
15% > 311
20% > 390
25% > 483
30% > 593
35% > 724
40% > 885
45% > 1086
50% > 1345
55% > 1690
60% > 2172 (=75% average cap)
All rounded up to nearest integer

So basicly the cloak enchant only helps hitting breakpoints when you receive aura mastery (= not enough to beat armor).
Raid buff = 5% guaranteed.
+ elixir = 10%
alchemist with cloak enchant = 15%
LW Fur Lining = +5%
As the Fur Lining is still the best you can get as LW (+70 resistance), you can actually hit 20% guaranteed magic reduction as LW/Alch, although you'll need to find you some Arctic Fur for the bracer enchants.

Loganisis
09-13-2011, 09:54 AM
although you'll need to find you some Arctic Fur for the bracer enchants.

Howling Fjord - farm shoveltusks for 10 minutes, you'll have 3. Or enough leather to trade for 3.

****

So - I'm more confused - is resistance still tiered? Which of the following is true?

Resistance is always in incriments of 5%, so unless you can hit the next tier, you don't actually gain anything, or

Resistance is linear, so the tiers listed are just for ease understanding?

pulled
09-13-2011, 02:51 PM
Airowird, ty for clearing that up. One thing i think you missed is i can only reach 320 resist with alch and the enchant to back(at least w/o leathworking or using like level 60 gear). if not i sit at 300. So ya you need cloak plus alch. I will re confirm this to make sure also.


reconfirmed- enchant to back, buff, aura, elixer=320
with auramastery it was 515

Airowird
09-14-2011, 03:07 AM
Fixed my post now, pulled.

Loganisis: Resistance is per 5% bracket, but it's chance, so every point of resistance helps, but certain amounts guarantee you always get a certain amount of resistance.
Similar to Block: Every % of Block chance helps reduce overall damage, but only certain breakpoints guarantee a reduction on every hit (in case of block just 1, or 2 if you're a Warrior with too much stats)

Loganisis
09-14-2011, 02:26 PM
And they got rid of ArP because that was too mathy... thats 1st grade math compared to this XD

That makes sense - I still can't fully see how it works, but I understand it - if that makes any sense. Thanks

Fetzie
09-14-2011, 02:27 PM
And they got rid of ArP because that was too mathy... thats 1st grade math compared to this XD

That makes sense - I still can't fully see how it works, but I understand it - if that makes any sense. Thanks

They also do not intend to introduce a resist check boss like Sapphiron or Mother Shahraz so that this would become an issue :)

leethaxor
09-14-2011, 02:30 PM
They also do not intend to introduce a resist check boss like Sapphiron or Mother Shahraz so that this would become an issue :)

For those who don't remember:

Mother Sharazrazaz:
Phase 1 of this fight is 2-3 weeks long and involves farming trash for heart of darknesses. Phase 2 of this fight is 1 week long and involves attuning a leatherworker to Black temple so that you can craft leather Shadow Resist Gear. Phase 3 of this Fight has been Intentionally Left Blank. Phase 4 of this fight requires players to equip their shadow resist gear and turn their spell detail level all the way down. Phase 5: ????? Phase 6: Profit

pulled
09-14-2011, 06:57 PM
so from what i understand its like this

If your under the breakpoint of a 5% marker your gain is like this example

if you have 290 resistance and you get attacked your range will be 10-14 percent off a magic attack then if you go to 300 its 10-14.5 percent off a magic attack but if you get to 311 its 15 percent minimum every time. so having 320 is 15-15.3 or so. obviously the math is just for an example but that's how I think it works.

Airowird
09-15-2011, 01:40 AM
At 290 you can get resists from 10% to ... I think around 30% max
As you get more (300) it's a lower chance on 10% and say a very small chance on 35%
At 311 you will no longer get 10%, but always atleast 15% and a slightly higher chance to resist 35%
Goes on untill you hit the res cap, at which point you resist an average of 75%, with resists ranging from 60% to 90% (iirc)

Booi
09-18-2011, 07:59 AM
At a Cr of 724 for lvl88 spells, you get following table:
Min reduction > resistance required
5% > 181
10% > 242
15% > 311
20% > 390
25% > 483
30% > 593
35% > 724
40% > 885
45% > 1086
50% > 1345
55% > 1690
60% > 2172 (=75% average cap)
All rounded up to nearest integerer)

And the 5% break points are purely empirical?

EDIT: I guess my question is: when did this change from the 10% steps we saw in wrath?

Airowird
09-18-2011, 09:03 AM
I thought there were 5% breakpoint, but I could be wrong, honestly don't look at my resists a lot, just happy about them, but if it's still per 10%, then they are empirical (and only 242 & 390 res caps actually matter), but hey, they're there just in case they changed it to 5% :)

Martie
09-18-2011, 09:47 AM
I thought that, like armor, more resistance always reduced your magical armor taken.
Sure, the actual numbers are always in 5% increments, but the average goes up - each point of resistance makes that lowest number less likely and the highest number more likely. Once your lowest number drops off, you add a new higher number.

And if that's the case, then more resistance is always good, and the breakpoints mean next to nothing.

Booi
09-18-2011, 10:39 AM
I thought that, like armor, more resistance always reduced your magical armor taken.
Sure, the actual numbers are always in 5% increments, but the average goes up - each point of resistance makes that lowest number less likely and the highest number more likely. Once your lowest number drops off, you add a new higher number.

And if that's the case, then more resistance is always good, and the breakpoints mean next to nothing.

Right, the reason a lot of tanks look at the tiers is because they use resistance to combat burst style abilities. Meaning that they're looking at guaranteed reduction.

In the case of burning wound, where you're resisting over the course of an entire fight: Average resistance makes a lot more sense than the guaranteed reduction. Especially since the TB trinket is up for every magma trap.

lemaneth
10-16-2011, 10:24 AM
I was wondering how often the 20 extra resistance would bump you up 1 tier. The 'next' column lists how much resistance is needed to get into the next tier. Blue marked values are under 20. At 88 it's only when special CD's are used.

Interesting to see is that using an elixir seldom has effect on your tier, though it does bump you 1 tier when only res-aura is up, and that should be most of the times.

http://i.imgur.com/u7acq.png