View Full Version : Tanking Alysrazor tanking issues
09-07-2011, 10:15 AM
I have tried to read most of the posts regarding Protection Warrior dps on the hatchlings in the Alysrazor fight and I have seen multiple things:
a) Try to get your expertise and hit capped so that the dps is high: The problem with this is that I am gimping my survivability and the healers are complaining
b) Tanking the hatchlings in tank gear: The problem here is that the hatchlings are always 15-20% when the tornado phase starts and I have to kill them during the tornado phase. We have killed her two/three times and this is certainly possible, but it is not a clean solution
I have parsed the logs and my dps is a little lower than the other tank in the raid(the protection paladin) and I do not see an obvious reason why this is the case.
I also seem to be taking more damage than the protection paladin(a major chunk of it is melee) and some part of it is that I am taking more damage than him due to gushing wound.
The reason why I might be taking more damage than him due to gushing wound might be due to two reasons:
a) The healers are not letting me drop below 50%.
b) My bird is staying up for longer and therefore I get more applications of gushing wound.
I am using landslide on my spare tank weapon. I am also using the strength trinket (from Avengers rep) and either the Scales of time or the trinket from Magmaw.
P.S. The trinkets that are there in my armory are not the actual trinkets I use(Sorry), but the rest of the gear is what I use.
I have two questions(well two categories):
a) Why am I taking this much damage? Is this much damage normal? There is a delay of a few seconds between the time the hatchling tantrums and it gets fed, because the worm might be casting its fire breath on that side. How do people generally deal with feeding the worms. Do they go through the fire and get the worm fed?
b) How do I do more damage? Like I mentioned above I eat hit food, have a strength flask on me and have vigilance
This attempt is the one which I am asking for help with:
I would appreciate it if you could just concentrate on the first phase(before the tornadoes hit). I am taking more damage than him in the 2nd phase, because I have to tank the bird and dodge the tornadoes.
In this attempt I took 666,276 more damage than the other tank in melee. Is this simply because I did not feed the bird fast enough?
Here is the damage done breakdown on the voracious hatchlings:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4vskxnc0mi9y729q/details/19/?s=0&e=504 (Other tank)
What can I do to improve myself? Any help would be highly appreciated.
If you want me to go back and try to analyze the data more, please let me know and I will try to read more into the logs.
09-07-2011, 10:23 AM
Not really answering your questions but I still may be able to help. I am a DK and was having a hard time dropping my bird.
How much are you moving? When I was able to stand still more I dropped the bird another 10-15%.
We make sure the tanks get Ret aura and thorns when possible and my bird gets any spare DPS when initiates are down.
Our protect warrior was able to almost spam heroic strike. He blew through his add.
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09-07-2011, 10:44 AM
A) Not enough Shield Slams. Shield slam should be ~20% of your total damage.
B) No rend damage - I'm pretty sure this is a DPS increase over Dev. Using TC to keep Rend up will also slow attacks by 20%, reducing damage taken. You also aren't using Demo shout - do you have a DPS DK covering that?
C) Why are you switching to beserker stance? I don't see execute, so I'm not sure? You don't need Beserker for Recklessness anymore.
D) Do you have the T11 helm or shoulders, so you can run 2pc T11 and 2pc T12?
Ultimately, I think it's just use your abilities more - hit more buttons (have you downloaded the latency fix?)
I mean, I don't do a great job with my rotation (as much as I talk to Teng about it) - but our kill was 30 seconds longer and:
18 more heroic strikes
46 more devastates
5 more shield slams
13 more shockwaves
21 more melees
The general strat I use is:
1. Dev to x3 as soon as the hatchling is attackable - by the time it imprints I have 3 stacks of sunder:
2. Reck/SB/SS - SnB fish until Reck fades
3. Back up and eat the first worm. use Reck if I remember.
4. When the bird tantrums, Heroic Leap to the second worm.
5. As soon as the bird eats the second worm back the bird over the third worm.
6. CD through the tantrum. I'm replacing Devs with Shockwaves and TC as needed to keep Rend up, but otherwise I'm just SnB fishing for SS procs.
7. After the 3rd worm is eaten, backing up slightly so I'm ready to go to the 4th worm - back up to the 4th worm as soon as it's safe and a tantrum is active/imminent.
8. After the 4th worm, turn the hatchling away from the feathers and just focus on DPS priorities.
09-07-2011, 11:20 AM
If you are dying to Alysrazor it is highly unlikely to be a gear thing. Much more likely is timing of abilities and reacting to two key abilities:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99308 - when this is applied, your health will be pushed down to 50%. Ideally your healers will want to let that happen then *quickly* pick you back up above 50%. If they don't do that, it's quite likely that you'll still have gushing wound on you when the other ability happens...
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99308 - I'm sure you are already aware of tantrum, and this is the real killer, but maybe you aren't reacting to it well? The temptation is to use shield block as a dps cooldown, but in fact you are much better off saving it for when the tantrum comes. What really helped me was to configure a PowerAura that popped up (with a sound) when 'target gains tantrum') and quick reactions to tantrum is what really keeps you alive.
It's not essential to clear gushing wound before tantrum but it certainly makes it easier. What is essential is that you (and your healers) understand that tantrum means spike damage and the you are reacting to it appropriately. Shield block is an awesome cooldown to counter it, but even if you save your first shield block for the first tantrum, it is possible that the 2nd will come up. If you are doing enough DPS, you can eat worms a little earlier to avoid tantrum altogether, or you can use other cooldowns to help mitigate it. Heroic leaping to a worm can be a neat way to counter tantrum. And though you are working to push as much damage as possible, do not ever let thunderclap and demo shout (or equivalents) drop off.
Do not get hit by the fire from the worms. Once you get the hang of it, you'll have a fairly repeatable path that keeps you away from the worm until you are getting near to tantrum time. When tantrum is due, you should either be able to move closer (but avoiding the fire) or be ready to leap to the worm.
The reason that you are taking more damage is probably down to thunderclap/demo shout. Either keep them up yourself or get someone else to put equivalent debuffs on for you. They should really be up all the time, but it's very important that they are up at any point where the hatchling might tantrum.
Macroing the rep trinket, shield block and inner rage together is quite a nice DPS trick.
09-07-2011, 09:22 PM
That my alyzrazor from tonight, i also do a piss poor job on my rotation. So what' Logans saying sounds right, I tank this encounter in full tank gear, with tank food/flasks i managed;
37 more heroic strikes
9 more shield slams
12 more devastates
~20 more melees
Your uptime on Sword and board procs shows an average of 2.6seconds to use them, you should be aiming to get that as close as possible to 1.5 seconds, this should lead to more Shield slams, less wasted procs, more rage and more heroic strikes. Likewise due to the lack of CC on you, you can feel free to burn Berserker Rage for more rage any time you're not able to heroic strike/inner rage on CD. Despite not having points in Imp.Revenge you're still using Revenge; I wouldn't bother, even with the talent Revenge is the diet coke version of devastate on a single target, without that talent take it off your bars. If you must use it, take that talent (I still do as being heroic strike whore I can still rage starve myself if I don't use it liberally), for this fight you can feel safe taking the points out of deep wounds. (i take them out of thunderstruck for my all purpose tank spec)
I find spending the first two GCDs putting up Demo shout and TC are good, I pop Shield block, inner rage and Zerker rage on CD throught the hatching phase, I pop Recklessness with the first shield block after i've wormed the first tantrum. I generally will keep the bird near the first worm and dodge the fire, once the first tantrums wormed i'll hold the bird about half way between the worm spawn points and just heroic leap over the second worm, the second time my bird enrages, repeating for the 3rd and fourth worms.
09-08-2011, 03:19 AM
Ok, for some reason which is beyond me you really didn't do much damage at all on this fight (if i'm reading things correctly). Normally tanking this fight i get some crits in worht at least 300k with SS, 150-200k with HS with 3/3 in incite. And that's wearing my full tank gear.
Use rend ,it scale great with bird buff I dont see you use it at all.Deep wounds are not scaling at all ,but rend is doing rly good dmg.
Reason why you do lower dps than pala is your active time also.I see that in some trys he is more than 20% more active that you.So if he have longer time on bird ofc his dps will be higher.Or maybe you move to much.Your goal is to eat those worms fast so you can stand and dps.Try to get exp / hit for 87 lvl mobs.
You dont use CB also,S&B proc is low since you have mele hits > ss ,that should not be that way.You dont need to do ideal rotation it is more to do as less moving you can and dps,and dont forget that other dps need to help on birds so maybe you are not main reason.This is my last wol where i played bad ,but still didnt had any issues http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/txlknv9p9nji57bm/details/120/?s=2365&e=3011 ( Iknow it is hc version but basics are same )
09-08-2011, 09:46 AM
As I've said in other threads, there are two schools of thought for Alysrazor. You can choose to go in full tank gear, which will buy you some passive survivability and room for error with handling the tantrums, or you can choose to use more dps oriented gear, which will test your reactions to tantrum, cooldown usage, positioning and path, etc, but which makes the job of killing the hatchling a bit easier. Note that heroic mode (which I'm just progressing on atm) is different in that regard - here you really can't tank a tantrum without major cooldowns, so as far as I understand that means there's no point saving shield block and it should be used explicitly as a dps cooldown.
When selecting your gear, don't forget that strength is not a constant - some 'tank' gear has more strength than other items in the same slot. More strength is good. A compromise, if you have the appropriate gear, is to mix 2 piece set bonuses from T11 and T12 for 'monster flaming shield slams'. Since we all seem to be linking our logs, here's mine (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/342lvty4n9pmp4ct/sum/damageDone/?s=5058&e=5552) from last week, which I did with that kind of gear setup (2 dps trinks, both t12/11 set bonuses, landslide on boe dps axe, etc). Looking at your gear, you would benefit from getting a better mainhand weapon - and if you happened to come across some T11 shoulders or helm, you could probably get that double set bonus (although I wouldn't lose sleep over not having it if you can't easily access T11 content).