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View Full Version : Warrior CTC or Dodge/Parry Ratio?



kaydubbleu
09-04-2011, 08:11 PM
[DELETED]

Loganisis
09-04-2011, 10:39 PM
1. Do TB. you're horde on a PvP server with a 25:1 horde/ally ratio (according to wowprogress) :D The trinket is 125 commendations (plus maybe a little dungeon rep if you don't have it yet). that's 13 days. If you're going to worry about .25 CTC coverage, just bite the bullet :D

2. Personally, I've very much in the ignore cheap VP items until you have the key ones. The reason being the cheap ones have less total rating on it, plus the 4pc is typically the goal. However, that being said, in your case, I'd suggest trying to get the 4pc T11 (or at least the helm or shoulders drop) so you can go 2pc t11 and 2pc t12 for Alyzrazor. I'd suggest probably the gloves + legs for t12 with the chest + helm/shoulders from t11. Then, look at itemization and item level.

Right now the 378 ring over the 346 you have is a bigger gain than the 378 neck over the 365 you have.


***

Now - as to the original question - CTC or balanced dodge/parry - CTC is the way to go. It won't make much difference overall, but higher CTC means smoother rage. Dodge/parry balancing (with parry slightly ahead) is nice, but if it's out of whack and you still have better CTC coverage, it's not a big deal. Think about it... I want to be less protected just to balance two stats that are supposed to be protecting me? :p


Other point - ANY points in Cruetly without capping DW is less than optimal. DW isn't just a TPS increase over cruetly, it's a DPS as well.

Tengenstein
09-05-2011, 12:22 AM
Deep wounds will be around 4-8% total damage increase, its a very powerful talent

I'm finding it difficult to to express just how superflous Gag Order is in a PVE scenario. i've tanked most cata 5 man content as arms, in arms gear without it, if you really care about maximising your tank, you really shouldn't need it, its a crutch, you can acheive much the same effect with LoS pulls, or if you're worried about breaking CC learning to tank round them; get to know your TC range, and the size of your SW arc, Know that Rev and Cleave cannot jump behind you so if your arse is on the CC you won't break it with either of those. An untalented HT followed up by well timed Spell Reflects can give you a very nice threat lead at 30 yards.

You could drop Imp.Rev (and rev entirely form your rotation), though i find this leads to more difficult rage management scenarios. however don't kid yourself that this isn't a DPS loss. It is. Another alternative would be to drop Thunderstruck. while it certainly is a powerful AoE talent, its mediocre on single target.

Either way you're better off with 3/3 deep wounds and 3/3 shield specialization.

swelt
09-05-2011, 01:45 AM
I don't understand why Tengenstein hates gag order so much, but if you don't want to be without it then don't. The world won't end if you don't pick cruelty or imp revenge or thunderstruck. If you are running random heroics a lot and want maximum control over the outcome, I totally understand why you'd want a ranged silence on a 30s cooldown.

Tengenstein
09-05-2011, 02:06 AM
Becuase the craven hussy dumped 10% shield slam damage, and 10% shield slam damage is my friend :p

Becuase it's superflous and becuase we're talking about 5 man dungeon trash, if trash actually was hard, and actually needed to be silenced at range then by all means take it, but lets not pretend trash is hard once you're mostly out of your 346s, or have the 15% buff.

Kazeyonoma
09-05-2011, 02:50 AM
moved to HALP!

Loganisis
09-05-2011, 07:59 AM
I don't understand why Tengenstein hates gag order so much, but if you don't want to be without it then don't. The world won't end if you don't pick cruelty or imp revenge or thunderstruck. If you are running random heroics a lot and want maximum control over the outcome, I totally understand why you'd want a ranged silence on a 30s cooldown.

There is exactly 1 pull I can think of where I want gag order - Old City, running into the merchant quarter, with casters spread far and wide. Rajh's dungeon, don't remember the name right now - has a few packs where it'd be nice. VP has a few packs where it would be nice. But other than that, I've never found myself wanting it.

Then again, I'm not a speed-pulling-chain-pulling-fool. I still mark skull and X and CC targets. LOL

I'm with Teng on this one.

I'd drop Gag Order and Revenge and put 3/3 in DW and 3/3 in Shield Spec. I actually can't fathom running dungeons without 3/3 shield spec since there's so little damage that Block is basically your ONLY source of rage.

Tengenstein
09-05-2011, 08:20 AM
I wouldn't drop Imp.revenge in a dungeon spec. its just too much of a rage saving.

Gregasaurous
09-05-2011, 04:46 PM
For 5 man dungeons, Gag Order can seem like a incredible utility to have at your disposal. I understand, i held on to it for a long time until i finally begrudingly dropped it for a dps increase talant so i could mroe effectively do Allysrazor. Now, i didn't feel like runnign around doing spec change for convienance (i know ppl did it in Vanilla, but it sucked then too) so i kept GO off my tree. At first i hated not having it but i got over it and just played smarter and now i only wish i had it when i'm FC in a BG. (I wish Blizz would give us a third talent tree for those of use who have to keep 2 raid specs and would like to dable in pvp, i'm sure most healers and tanks would agree)

Loganisis
09-05-2011, 07:38 PM
For 5 man dungeons, Gag Order can seem like a incredible utility to have at your disposal. I understand, i held on to it for a long time until i finally begrudingly dropped it for a dps increase talant so i could mroe effectively do Allysrazor. Now, i didn't feel like runnign around doing spec change for convienance (i know ppl did it in Vanilla, but it sucked then too) so i kept GO off my tree. At first i hated not having it but i got over it and just played smarter and now i only wish i had it when i'm FC in a BG.

Even when gearing, CC>GO. Unfortunately that requires reasonably effective dungeon dwellers, so it may not be appropriate if you do a lot of LFD tanking. I do kinda wish it had a point in raids....


(I wish Blizz would give us a third talent tree for those of use who have to keep 2 raid specs and would like to dable in pvp, i'm sure most healers and tanks would agree)

This is getting off topic - but how about mages that go fire/arcane for what's needed for a fight? Warlocks affliction/demo, don't rogues go combat/assissin depending on the fight? But... this has been talked about in depth and never gets anywhere... *sigh*

Back to the main point - balancing Dodge and parry is a secondary concern - if keeping them unbalanced leads to more CTC coverage (presumably for more mastery) I wouldn't worry about them being unbalanced.

Gregasaurous
09-05-2011, 09:41 PM
This is getting off topic - but how about mages that go fire/arcane for what's needed for a fight? Warlocks affliction/demo, don't rogues go combat/assissin depending on the fight? But... this has been talked about in depth and never gets anywhere... *sigh*

Remaining off topic, sorry- Yeah, it's been discussed, yelled and cried about, and correct, for the most part, anybody who's looking to bring a good amount of utlitly to a raid uses more than one spec.

Tengenstein
09-06-2011, 03:58 AM
and now i only wish i had it when i'm FC in a BG. (I wish Blizz would give us a third talent tree for those of use who have to keep 2 raid specs and would like to dable in pvp, i'm sure most healers and tanks would agree)

You need GO for prot PVP. NEEEED! it just too valuable in PVP to drop. As much as i vehemently opposed to GO in PVE I'm vehemently for it in PVP.

swelt
09-06-2011, 06:19 AM
Coming back to topic then - askmrrobot is not a great reforging tool for tanks, so take the output with a pinch of salt or with a layer of your own interpretation. I remember experimenting with it - it was demanding I reforged a whole bunch of things to dodge. When I followed it's instructions and re-ran the optimiser, it wanted me to reforge a bunch of things back to parry. Grr! When it tells you 'reforge that mastery ring to dodge', the message is 'your parry and dodge DRs are out of balance'. Listen to the message, not the strict instruction. Don't reforge out of mastery until you are at full combat table coverage (which you won't be for a long time).

And to close off my contribution to the gag order thing: remember that there is no single right answer. The talent trees do have room for preference. If you want gag order more than thunder struck or improved revenge, that's entirely your decision. I used to be a big fan of improved revenge, but find I can get by just fine without it - on the other hand, I like the quality of life of chain pulling with heroic throw and having a ranged silence in a few rare situations. There are pros and cons with all the choices, but few things you can't work around. Your success in the vast majority of situations will come down to your skill as a player first. Minor talent choices help, but typically only make a few percentage points difference in raw performance.

Gregasaurous
09-06-2011, 12:54 PM
Coming back to topic then - askmrrobot is not a great reforging tool for tanks, so take the output with a pinch of salt or with a layer of your own interpretation. I remember experimenting with it - it was demanding I reforged a whole bunch of things to dodge. When I followed it's instructions and re-ran the optimiser, it wanted me to reforge a bunch of things back to parry. Grr! When it tells you 'reforge that mastery ring to dodge', the message is 'your parry and dodge DRs are out of balance'. Listen to the message, not the strict instruction. Don't reforge out of mastery until you are at full combat table coverage (which you won't be for a long time).


I never understood te purpose of reforge addons, it seems pretty straightfoward to me.
1) If it doesn't have Mastery, MAKE it have Mastery. (Reforge out the less desired stat, not rocket science)
2) If it does have Mastery, but not Dodge/Parry, make it have one of those. (Depending on what you need more to balance your stats)
3) If it has Mastery and Dodge/Parry, leave it alone, unless your dodge/parrry is out of balance in which case you might take some points from the avoidance stat and put it into the other.


Kaydubbleu, i just looked at your talent tree, you have Cruelty specced instead of Deep Wounds, (somebody correct me if wrong) but Deep Wounds runs circles around Cruelty as far as damage which=threat (not that threat matters anymore, but shaving a few seconds off a boss fight is always nice)

Loganisis
09-06-2011, 03:47 PM
DW > Cruelty. DW > all DPS choices basically.

#4 - (Dodge/Parry) / (hit/exp) -- It depends. If the tanking stat is 2x the other stat, you generally get more CTC coverage by reforging the much larger tanking stat into mastery. However it's usually a very small amount. It really just depends.

*******

As for Ask Mr. Robot - I did see the constant reforge earlier (just before 4.1 I think?) but I haven't seen it since then.

Tengenstein
09-06-2011, 05:14 PM
For single target i'm not entirely sure that DW is always greater than Cruelty.

Loganisis
09-06-2011, 05:15 PM
If you had a great SnB string, maybe... And if you have near perfect SB uptime.

Tengenstein
09-06-2011, 05:20 PM
Not really its just that SS made up 21.3% of my total damage on my last log of Baleroc, Combustion made up a further 4.7% and DW made up 5.6%, so (ignoring DW/cruelty interplay) as Cruelty accounts for roughly a 6th of my SS/combust damage its worth 2.16% of my damage per talent point whereas DW is worth 1.86% of my total DPS per point.

Loganisis
09-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Not really its just that SS made up 21.3% of my total damage on my last log of Baleroc, Combustion made up a further 4.7% and DW made up 5.6%, so (ignoring DW/cruelty interplay) as Cruelty accounts for roughly a 6th of my SS/combust damage its worth 2.16% of my damage per talent point whereas DW is worth 1.86% of my total DPS per point.

Ah, combust would play into it. 20% bigger SS. I'm still slowly working on my DPS set, haven't started working on my VP tank gear.

The logs I'm seeing on WoL show Combust as about 4.2% with SS at 21.3% - so it's more like 1/5th (25%)... of course I was looking at the top logs, maybe they're cheesing it somehow (or just lucky string of SnB procs later in the fight for 1m hp vengence SS combusts overhwelming earlier SS?)

Tengenstein
09-06-2011, 07:47 PM
Not really sure I understand the second paragraph, but if what you're getting at is that once baleroc massively inflates your health pool your vengeance also inflates i'm pretty sure that doesn't happen as a) there should be a pretty massive increase in DPS ovewr the fight and thats nor reflected on my logs and b) vengeance is capped at 10%base health+stamina, Baleroc doesn't buff your base health, nor does he buff your stamina.

though now i look at it i didn't have the bleed debuff up so DW hands down me thinks. I'll really have to sim it to be certain, which means i need to work out why simcraft's latest version is so damn unstable.

Gregasaurous
09-07-2011, 12:05 AM
It depends on the boss. Some fights i'm sitting there refreshing debuffs ect... and when not doing that keeping SS and HS on CD. In short, if it's a fight where you're going to be hit a lot (Baeleroc) and so generate a lot of rage, and in turn using Inner rage so you can spam HS to dump rage, DW is going to outdo cruelty by a mile. If however it's a moderate fight and you're jsut doing rotation i supose cruelty might come in a few steps ahead.

Airowird
09-07-2011, 01:29 AM
Of all the optional synergies DW has, I'ld say it definately gets the most out of Incite, which means Greg is correct, Cruelty (especially with 2/2 set bonus setup) can beat DW without Bleed debuff and not enough HS spammage. But the threshold is actually relatively low and most fights will be atleast around that point, with certain fights definately favouring DW.

PS: If you don't have Heavy Repurcussions or don't SB on the cooldown, DW wins pretty easily.

swelt
09-07-2011, 05:33 AM
Also note that in this raid tier, the one fight where tank DPS matters most is also the fight where deep wounds adds almost nothing. For reasons I don't understand, deep wounds does not benefit from 'imprinted' and contributes only a tiny contribution to your hatchling damage (and it's quite likely that you won't have a bleed debuff on your target). It's the reason I went back to including cruelty in my build.

Gregasaurous
09-07-2011, 08:23 PM
b) vengeance is capped at 10%base health+stamina, Baleroc doesn't buff your base health, nor does he buff your stamina.

I missed this before otherwise i would have commented on it earlier. On to the point, are you sure this is correct? Because i seem to remember doing around 11k dps on that fight and the only way that could add up is if vengeance is stacking with my health. I'll have to look at the numbers when i down him next. Your logic is sound and i can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work that way but then again blizz sometimes neglects to write out exact mechanics of things. (Ex. i believe when i use my last stand vengeance recieves a slight buff as well due to my health being 30% higher.) Anyway, i should have a conformation on this by Sunday night.


Also note that in this raid tier, the one fight where tank DPS matters most is also the fight where deep wounds adds almost nothing. For reasons I don't understand, deep wounds does not benefit from 'imprinted' and contributes only a tiny contribution to your hatchling damage (and it's quite likely that you won't have a bleed debuff on your target). It's the reason I went back to including cruelty in my build.
Really? I did not know that. I think i might have to respec every time i do that fight if that's the case lol.

Tengenstein
09-07-2011, 08:54 PM
Yeah Deep wounds are unaffected by the Fixate Buff. As to the vengeance thing, yeah I am pretty sure about it, in game tooltips say it's capped at 10% of your health, however it wasn't soon before the theorycrafters caught that that one was a porky. As to your 11k dps on Baleroc, thats not particularily odd. I do 11k on baleroc, I also do 12.5k on Shannox, 15k on Staghelm, neither of the latter buff my HP. Last stand probably buffs vengeance by buffing your base health by 30%. though tbh i never really was paying attention to my vengeace at the points where i had to pop last stand.

Gregasaurous
09-08-2011, 01:56 AM
Well i'm definitely going to have to look into this now, my dps doesn't usually ever go that high to my knowledge.