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Hanztoyerslf
08-31-2011, 02:03 PM
Which option for damage mitigation/health restoration is more effective for a Tank in Cataclysm heroics/raids: Earthen Potion http://thottbot.com/spell=80478 or Mythical Healing Potion http://thottbot.com/spell=80498?

Taelas
09-01-2011, 03:25 AM
On magic intensive fights, Earthen Potion is close to worthless, but it will generally be more effective than Mythical Healing Potion on any other fight simply due to healing. One-use activated healing is often wasted, or simply cause a healer to overheal instead. Keep in mind that using a Mythical Healing Potion in the correct moment can save you from a wipe, however. Earthen Potion will reduce your overall damage intake, but it will probably not save you in that manner.

Loganisis
09-01-2011, 09:01 AM
I haven't used a potion in so long... Gone are the days at the end of Wrath when the potion was actually good...

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Right now, raid buffed, I'm around 40k armor. That's ~55% DR 5k armor from the pot takes me up to just under ~58% DR. So that's a 3% DR against unblocked hits, for 25 seconds. Which will be, in a base case scenario, 9 incoming melee hit plus any specials that are mitigated by armor.

Some of those will be dodged/parried. Some damage may be unmitigatable magic. For block tanks, some will be blocked as well, reducing the functional damage reduction (a 31% normal block reduces it from 3% of damage to 2.07%. A 62% crit block for warriors reduces it to 1.14%)

****

So - which do you go with? I think the answer is honestly - it depends on the fight and maybe your toolbox. As a warrior, armor pots don't seem to fill niches like they did in WotLK.

Armor pots, to be effective, must be used proactively, before damage is taken (think 3rd inhale festergut). Healing pots are 100% reactive, like soulstones.

Shannox - there really isn't ever any steady damage bursts, I'd prefer health pots because there are moments I'm low and a health pot becomes like soulstone light (20-25k instead of 50k).

Beth - See shannox. I guess maybe in the burn phase, but there it seems more raid-healing intensive than tank.

Ry - Does it matter?

Aly - Damage burst is RNG - Healing pots all the way.

Domo - Earthen pots here might be the value, 3rd or 4th scorpian phase. Assuming that damage is subject to armor.

Rags - probably a heal pot.




What it comes down to, is in my raid, there don't seem to be set moments when I know healing is going to be problematic and I should use my 1 potion use then. I prefer damage never taken over +healing, but with the way the fights are designed, I'm leaning more toward healing pots in most cases.

Fetzie
09-02-2011, 12:26 AM
Domo - Earthen pots here might be the value, 3rd or 4th scorpian phase. Assuming that damage is subject to armor.

I prefer to use one in the second cat + orb phase on heroic, the sabre lash is fire damage and thus only resistable.

swelt
09-02-2011, 02:37 AM
The only fight where I've felt using armor pots made a really significant difference to the outcome was heroic halfus. My role was to tank 1 drake + the whelps, and I was doing that for a fairly significant amount of time. So that's a high and sustained amount of melee damage from the start of the fight - so a pre-pot and then 2nd pot which would often coincide with a break in my person defensive cooldowns was ideal.

I have heard of some people using Golemblood potions for the extra parry (and dps). This might be particularly of interest if you are close to but not quite unhittable, as the extra parry might be enough to ensure no unblocked hits. It's not something I've done myself. From wowhead comments, 1200 Strength = 324 parry rating = 1.8334% parry - hardly a big deal and one presumes that's pre-DRs.

Fetzie
09-02-2011, 04:39 AM
If you are only 320 parry rating off unhittable, get 215 mastery rating (as a warrior) or 140 mastery rating (paladin) and be passively unhittable for less item budget IMO.

swelt
09-02-2011, 04:42 AM
There isn't a mastery potion though, and this is a discussion about potions. Obviously getting passive unhittable beats being almost passively unhittable, but my point was that if you are in that gear gap where you are almost there then golemblood has an extra benefit.

Loganisis
09-02-2011, 08:01 AM
I have heard of some people using Golemblood potions for the extra parry (and dps). This might be particularly of interest if you are close to but not quite unhittable, as the extra parry might be enough to ensure no unblocked hits. It's not something I've done myself. From wowhead comments, 1200 Strength = 324 parry rating = 1.8334% parry - hardly a big deal and one presumes that's pre-DRs.

I'd make sense for DPS if living is no problem, but as far as parry... bah! 25 seconds. 3 secondish swing timer. 8 or 9 attacks. 1-(.987^8)= 1-.90 = .1. 10% chance of it actually causing a parry/dodge/block that wouldn't otherwise have happened per use.

It certainly makes sense from a DPS standpoint - full vengence, during hero, it's probably a noticeable bump. But meh on it's mitigation value. Especially since it's 25 seconds/fight. or about 45 if you pre-pot too.

I'd argue a healing pot > golem's for survability every day of the week. Healers have moments when they need to keep you up, not extended periods. No Festergut 3rd inhales or anything like that.

Of course, all this thread really shows is there's no really decent tanking pot....

Fayre
09-02-2011, 08:23 AM
If you're interested in reducing your overall damage intake over the course of the fight, then Earthen has to be the smart choice. The healing potion barely dents your health bar nowadays.

Loganisis
09-02-2011, 09:26 AM
If you're interested in reducing your overall damage intake over the course of the fight, then Earthen has to be the smart choice. The healing potion barely dents your health bar nowadays.

Overall damage is basically irrelevent though. Healers aren't OOM-ing. You're not dying to overall damage. Earthen potion does reduce overall damage, but a soul-stone lite (healing pot) helps more for the burst damage you didn't expect.

Earthen is best used proactively, ahead of known damage, not after the fact, it will help a little, but if a potion is going to be used reactively, healing > earthen. Buying your healers time to get you back up to full > the next hit being 3000 damage less.

Basically, with very little known burst damage, and most high-damage phases being magic damage, 20k heal > 3,000 less damage on the next hit. It's not a big difference, but your healers will have you up long before the 25 seconds is up, if they don't you have bigger problems than which pot you're using.

Ion
09-02-2011, 09:36 AM
a soul-stone lite (healing pot)

I don't think that word means what you think it means (you're looking for healthstone...soulstones are for battle rez).

leethaxor
09-02-2011, 09:48 AM
Our tanks pot strength and agi :\

Loganisis
09-02-2011, 11:20 AM
I don't think that word means what you think it means (you're looking for healthstone...soulstones are for battle rez).

Yeah... that word did not mean what I thought it meant.... I should have just stuck with demon cookies... Demon Cookie Light...

Gregasaurous
09-02-2011, 03:52 PM
I would say neither potion is going to effect much of anything at this point in progression. The health pot MIGHT save your ass on a fight like Bael if you're 1 tanking it. The str pot might be useful for Alys if your bird has a little excess health and tornedoes are coming soon. Armor pot if Shannox enrages or you (for whatever reason) can't delay riplimb from getting the spear back and you have to let your stacks go higher than you'd like. But most of these things are situational and for the most part your fellow raid members are supposed to support you through them.
So the answer really is: there is no one good potion for tanking, you get 3 viable options that you use situationally just like any other CD. Personally i just don't bother with them at all. If BLizz gave a mastery pot it might become a different story though.

Loganisis
09-02-2011, 11:07 PM
Tanking pots... the weapon enchant discussion of Cata! lol

leethaxor
09-02-2011, 11:28 PM
Tanking pots... the weapon enchant discussion of Cata! lol
They all suck, but god darn it we will kick the headstone over of the dead horse before we settle this!

Gregasaurous
09-03-2011, 12:53 AM
They all suck, but god darn it we will kick the headstone over of the dead horse before we settle this!
Pretty much, yep. Hence the reason i don't use a single one of them.

Martie
09-03-2011, 01:42 AM
You should use a magic resistance potion, Greg.
Sure, it doesn't actually do anything, but it's cheap and at least you tried.

Kemanorel
09-03-2011, 02:06 AM
class dependent, but why not pre-pot for a pull with this:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=13442

klausi
09-03-2011, 03:26 AM
Because Golemblood potion nets us a better result from a tps PoV.

Gregasaurous
09-03-2011, 08:36 AM
Because Golemblood potion nets us a better result from a tps PoV.
And if we still had to worry about TPS that would be a very valid point! lol
Well, to be fair, it may become a concern when i progress to Heroic raids, in which case i may be looking for every inch i can get (even if it means next to worthless potions) but that's not happenning for a while because we have to replace our pally tank after today and we're also replacing a hunter. ='(

Loganisis
09-03-2011, 10:26 AM
And if we still had to worry about TPS that would be a very valid point! lol
Well, to be fair, it may become a concern when i progress to Heroic raids, in which case i may be looking for every inch i can get (even if it means next to worthless potions) but that's not happenning for a while because we have to replace our pally tank after today and we're also replacing a hunter. ='(

well, you talked about pre-potting. The extra 20 seconds of str will also likely give you more damage (plus a slight bit more parry) than rage pots. So it's a DPS and TPS win, since you're really not hurting for rage anyway as soon as the boss hits you - at least I don't recall being hurting for rage.

Shout-beserker-charge = all the rage I need for a boss pull.

Charon
09-04-2011, 04:24 AM
They all suck, but god darn it we will kick the headstone over of the dead horse before we settle this!

Or beat the muddy ground where the dead horse rotted? Either way, I'd definitely run with the notion that pots are a cd to be used situation-based rather than a "YOU MUST USE POTION OF DOOM X!" type deal.

Tengenstein
09-04-2011, 05:07 AM
mana pots.

Airowird
09-04-2011, 08:17 AM
I'ld say keep a stack of each in your bags & simply use whatever you need when you need it.
Pre-pot would imho be strength, other than that you'll want to try & keep them for end-phase or soft-enrages. But in the end it is probably better to just get yourself Int pots, give 'em to your healers and tell 'em to use those, they'll have more effect than you using one.

Gregasaurous
09-04-2011, 10:39 AM
I'ld say keep a stack of each in your bags & simply use whatever you need when you need it.
Pre-pot would imho be strength, other than that you'll want to try & keep them for end-phase or soft-enrages. But in the end it is probably better to just get yourself Int pots, give 'em to your healers and tell 'em to use those, they'll have more effect than you using one.

I like this idea! Very good thinking.