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Allahdin
08-25-2011, 07:24 AM
Hello,

Pre-threat boost tanking with DW was useless since we've had problems keeping aggro as only main hand was counted into it. Now, that Blizz gave us 500% threat from our attacks threat problems are minor. So, why we shouldn't be tanking with DW, having two tank weapons that are claerly giving us much more avoidance than 2h?

I'm not sure if it works like that so any comments are welcome.

Mallok
08-25-2011, 07:33 AM
Even if it works now, it will likely not work at all after 4.3. But if it's something you insist on doing now may be your only chance. Just remember it's not Blizzards intent to ever support it, so the potential big changes might break it somehow.

Toushiro
08-25-2011, 07:38 AM
If you got tank 1 handers, give it a shot. Like Mallok said, Blizzard might do some kind of change that again forces us to use a 2H to tank since that's what they want us to do.

sifuedition
08-25-2011, 09:56 AM
I don't mean to be nit-picky. It would likely be possible, but since you asked "why not", here goes:

Tank 1 handers have 100 or less rating per stat. 2 handers have ~200 per stat. If you get a 2 hander with mastery, you are not actually losing much in stats. Additionally, if you can get exp or hit as the second stat on the 2 hander, this helps survivability with death strikes and the one handers may have the same stat anyways (soul blade etc).

For the trade off on 100-200 rating, you are losing a large amount of damage. Even if you don't need the damage for threat, it makes fights shorter and therefore, healing easier.

For what it's worth, that's just my opinion on why just because you can dual wield, you shouldn't.

Theotherone
08-25-2011, 10:26 AM
Some day this horse will stay dead.

swelt
08-25-2011, 10:35 AM
So in this tier (normal modes) this is your comparison:
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=71014.0.3365.0.0.0.0.0.149;70922.0.3 594:70922.0.3594;71352.0.0.0.52215.52215.0.0.142

I don't see the difference in stats as compelling enough to sacrifice the damage, a bit of extra dodge rating on the 2x1 handers goes up against more mastery and stam, plus a bunch of other (less useful but still beneficial) stats. Combine that with many of your styles doing less damage... not convinced.

Toushiro
08-25-2011, 10:38 AM
So in this tier (normal modes) this is your comparison:
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=71014.0.3365.0.0.0.0.0.149;70922.0.3 594:70922.0.3594;71352.0.0.0.52215.52215.0.0.142

I don't see the difference in stats as compelling enough to sacrifice the damage.

One problem with your link, not everyone is clearing FLs enough to get Rags mace, that axe (which the haste doesn't make it that amazing of a tanking weapon any ways, that's why the new BS 2 hander isn't even a suggestion for DK tanks that don't raid or do raid but T11 only)

Tengenstein
08-25-2011, 10:38 AM
eh, not until Blizz strap a 2h requirment on Heartstrike or Deathstrike. It's the same as warrior who PVE with Bloodcraze of Deep wounds, a big DPS loss fo a tiny Survivability increase. With the current state of tanking there's no real argument against it unless your extending the fight to the enrage or OOming your healers. Plus more bloodworms, which for a given definition, is FUN!

path411
09-29-2011, 04:11 PM
You will likely end up taking more damage over the course of a fight due to the dps loss.

Rennadrel
09-29-2011, 04:19 PM
It's not viable, there is no discussion to be had on this. It doesn't work, never has and never will. There is too much of a survivability loss with taking the points needed to dual wield with an effective amount of hit rating, making threat generation even worse when you have no expertise and your auto swings constantly miss, along with special abilities.

leethaxor
09-29-2011, 08:14 PM
Blood Worms
You have 2 2.6 speed weapons meaning you make a melee swing every 1.3 second (approx.) with a 10% chance to proc blood parasites you will spawn a new on once every ~13 seconds as blood.
This is compared to 2h were you will see one once ever ~36 seconds.
Verdict: So you could potentially see a almost a 2x increase to healing from blood worms. Which isn't that bad.

That is what you will gain. Roughly 2x the healing from blood worms

As outlined in these character devs
Normal Blood
DW Blood

Avoidance issue caused by chardev.org being bugged.

Now what about damage? The below snippet, is from last tier, and based around 359 ilvl weapons. Since scaling is still very similar (see same xpack, we can likely assume its hold true, if you force me I will redo it).

Death Strike
150.0%--Base
285.0%--90% Improved Death Strike
(ignoring glyph) Assuming 20k AP, and Assuming I taught myself normalization correct
For one hand DS: 4270 to 4992 Damage
For two hand DS: 6509 to 7407 Damage
Result: 2hand DS hits for ~150% more.



***TLDR***Less Damage
100 more HPS

swelt
09-30-2011, 05:18 AM
That didn't make sense to me, so I dug a bit. Looks like chardev doesn't recognise the 2% parry from the offhand rune. You can see this yourself: change the offhand rune to nerubian carapace then back to swordbreaking. The armor value goes up when you select nerubian carapace (as you'd expect) but the parry chance remains unchanged when you switch it back to swordbreaking. I am not aware of any limitation that states you can only use 1 weapon with swordbreaking, and I think that missing 2% would close the gap.

uglie
09-30-2011, 09:51 AM
The damage you lose from going with 2 1H weapons vs a 2H will not out weight the minuscule extra healing you receive from a couple extra blood worms. Using 2 1H will make the fight longer thus making your healers more likely to go oom and even if you did gain more avoidance your healers will never notice it. Though they will notice the fight last longer. There's been a couple time on shannox where rageface was near me and my healer was getting faceraged but I was able to hit him with a 30k+ DS and break him out potentially saving the raid. besides it's nice to see those big crits as a tank every so often.

leethaxor
09-30-2011, 01:00 PM
That didn't make sense to me, so I dug a bit. Looks like chardev doesn't recognise the 2% parry from the offhand rune. You can see this yourself: change the offhand rune to nerubian carapace then back to swordbreaking. The armor value goes up when you select nerubian carapace (as you'd expect) but the parry chance remains unchanged when you switch it back to swordbreaking. I am not aware of any limitation that states you can only use 1 weapon with swordbreaking, and I think that missing 2% would close the gap.

This boost would bring DW to just about within the margin of error of gems, reforging and enchanting. And to get that close you would have to have access to heroic firelands loot. Also nobody did point out that the 2h that was used was higher item level then the DW weapons. Which would imply that DW will net you more avoidance, and higher HPS for yourself and your melee dps.

Hate to say I'm a convert, in equal ilvl weapons DW may out perform 2h POST 4.3.

Kemanorel
09-30-2011, 01:03 PM
after miss/parry/dodge Death Strike still gives the absorb, perhaps. As it stands, not yet... but we might see.

leethaxor
09-30-2011, 01:08 PM
after miss/parry/dodge Death Strike still gives the absorb, perhaps. As it stands, not yet... but we might see.

It will greatly depend on weapons, if we see another dodge/mastery 1h then DW should edge out over 2h (in everything but dps). If we see a dodge/parry then DW will have a massive lead over 2h. The only solution I can see is having deathwing drop a mastery/wildcard 2h that is higher item then the 1h weapons. If not, i'll be in the DW blood camp.

Also with the 4.3 melee buffs and a 'passive' melee buff in the Dragon Soul instance itself. We may start seeing more melee dps, which may buff blood worms even more (I know we are talking about a very small heal), but can anyone confirm how the blood worm mechanic works?

Redefined
10-06-2011, 07:21 AM
I hate to be nonconstructive, but I can't believe this is still around...

It has been said time and time again.. Can you do it? Sure. But you are not using your character and tools to their optimum capability.

If that is okay with you and the people you are with, have at it.

-Red

Theotherone
10-06-2011, 08:06 AM
I've seen more DK tanks trying to DW tank these days, if I'm healing I usually just leave the group, if I'm feeling particularly nasty I let the them pull first; maybe two weapons will give them block - frankly, I've just grown weary of stupid. I've been focused on pvp geared dps in randoms too these days, they don't get heals - maybe they'll get the message to back to their BG or arena.

Guess I've just lost all patience.

Lilreggie
10-06-2011, 09:15 AM
If you sim it, the 371-384 pvp gear is better than the 346-353 and even a lot of 359s for most classes. Plus, dps isn't that important in heroics with a 15% buff.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Krenian
10-06-2011, 07:36 PM
I've seen more DK tanks trying to DW tank these days, if I'm healing I usually just leave the group, if I'm feeling particularly nasty I let the them pull first; maybe two weapons will give them block - frankly, I've just grown weary of stupid. I've been focused on pvp geared dps in randoms too these days, they don't get heals - maybe they'll get the message to back to their BG or arena.

Guess I've just lost all patience.

I would seriously hate you if you are like this. For dps dks, one of the better alternatives is the pvp weapons. The cleavers are boe drops in fl and no offense, I'm not dropping 20k + for those axes. I'll pvp to get those weapons instead.

Seeing frost dw is the best dps for dks ATM, you might want to second guess your opinion about dps using pvp items. Not all of us are doing it for sheer laziness. (and don't give me that "go farm bwl" crap either. That's not an option for some)

Theotherone
10-06-2011, 07:58 PM
Hated by a Canadian? Canadian's don't hate.

Krenian
10-06-2011, 08:03 PM
They do if silly people do silly things. Are you being silly? ;)

Theotherone
10-06-2011, 08:15 PM
No, just depends on my mood. Perhaps I was too general. One or two pieces, and I can understand weapons, is one thing, but when someone comes in in all pvp gear and is challenging the tank for dps - it becomes a waste of time.

Bovinity
10-06-2011, 08:43 PM
I would seriously hate you if you are like this. For dps dks, one of the better alternatives is the pvp weapons. The cleavers are boe drops in fl and no offense, I'm not dropping 20k + for those axes. I'll pvp to get those weapons instead.

Seeing frost dw is the best dps for dks ATM, you might want to second guess your opinion about dps using pvp items. Not all of us are doing it for sheer laziness. (and don't give me that "go farm bwl" crap either. That's not an option for some)

I'll agree here. I really wish people would get over the "omg pvp item" crap. Given the extremely high item level of easily obtainable PvP gear right now, there's no reason whatsoever to be complaining about some guy in ZA/ZG sporting 371 PvP items.

Theotherone
10-06-2011, 09:09 PM
I'll agree here. I really wish people would get over the "omg pvp item" crap. Given the extremely high item level of easily obtainable PvP gear right now, there's no reason whatsoever to be complaining about some guy in ZA/ZG sporting 371 PvP items.

Crap is the proper term for it. Same thing with DK's trying to tank DW. And it's the same opinon I have with with people in PvE going to BG's or Arena's. I don't discriminate in the opinion.

Bovinity
10-06-2011, 10:05 PM
You're just being stubborn if you complain about a guy in ZA/ZG wearing 371 items simply because they're not "PvE" items in your view.

Airowird
10-07-2011, 05:58 AM
No, just depends on my mood. Perhaps I was too general. One or two pieces, and I can understand weapons, is one thing, but when someone comes in in all pvp gear and is challenging the tank for dps - it becomes a waste of time.If your tank is fighting a PvPer on DPS, he needs to stop slacking!


You're just being stubborn if you complain about a guy in ZA/ZG wearing 371 items simply because they're not "PvE" items in your view.I can understand 371 gear in certain slots (mostly head/shoulders), but I will seriously let you die (or vote kick you before last boss) if you don't even bother to reforge the resilience off of it. If you prefer your resi enchanted PvP gear for heroics, that's all fine and dandy for you, but you're making my job harder, thus I prefer not grouping with you.

On DW tanking:
2H do more DPS, stats really shouldn't be the issue. Is it possible? Sure. Is it optimal? Not really. I always liked the WotLK Frost DW tanking, but I see no reason to purposely hold back others in this game just for my own enjoyment. That's called being a douchebag.

Theotherone
10-07-2011, 06:44 AM
Yes, I'm stubborn; but have just been driven too crazy in heroics with pvp'rs trying to tank, or heal or dps. Can some do it, sure but then again someone has to win the Lotto too and the odds are about the same. The best answer is for all pvp ilvl to be considered 0 for pve dungeon minimums.

The whole DK DW tanking thing will get more prevalent in 4.3 when DS gives you a heal even if it misses. So you'll have increased threat (which we have now) and there will be no reason to have to have hit. The DW DK tanks will be out in force.

Can you even reforge resilience? I didn't think you could.

Fetzie
10-07-2011, 06:53 AM
You cannot reforge to or from resilience.

Leucifer
10-07-2011, 09:55 AM
From a DK tank's perspective...........

Sorry. I agree with Theotherone.
Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're using a pve or pvp weapon. DW BLOOD TANKING IS A BAD IDEA.

Honestly, what do you think you are really truly gaining? What competitive advantage do you think you have really gained by doing this?

Even if you take Nerves of Cold Steel, you are only gaining 3% hit. When you go from a two-hander to dual-wield, you are still going to have to overcome the loss of hit from using one-handers. So, instead of gearing and trying to improve survivability, you're now very very likely going to have to reforge for hit and expertise to overcome the intentional threat handicap that you have placed on yourself.

Exact numbers? I run as a dw frost dps and if I remember correctly, at 8% hit, a DK is still going to miss with that offhand about 15-20% of the time. Frost DK overcomes this to some degree by two things: icy talons and running in unholy prez. Both of those give the DK such a significant haste buff that we're able to overcome/compensate for the loss of damage by hit. If this doesn't make sense to you, I'll put if this way..... if I swing and miss 20% of the time, I will do more damage to you if I swing 150 times vice 100 times. With 150 swings, I will land 120 hits on you. If I swing 100, I will land 80. That is 50%, or 40, more hits. If each hit is 100 damage, that means the 150 swing person does 12,000 damage, vice the 8,000 of the second. Win for the first one because they were able to effectively overcome their low hit percentage with more frequent (i.e. haste) hits.

Now, for a blood DK.... they don't receive either haste buff. They can't get Icy Talons, and they gain no threat buff without being in blood presence. They are effectively the 100 swing player. They will land maybe 80 hits. You will eventually lose out on threat generation compared to the person doing 50% more damage. Nevermind that, as a dw, you'll be doing significantly less as now your deathstrikes and heart strikes will only be striking with your mainhand.

The only way for you to compensate for this is to stack haste or hit and expertise. You are now no longer able to concentrate on survival stats. Oh sure, you will get more bloodworms..... assuming they survive long enough to give you the heal. But you are doing this at a direct loss to your survivability. You are taking away from one of two things a tank really needs to ...... sorry, check that.... you're intentionally gimping BOTH things a tank needs to do.... threat (which is always a function of damage done to the target).... and survival.

Even with a 500% threat buff, what have you really gained? What are the stat gains from running with two one-handers? Last time I checked, the stat gain from using one-handers is less than a single comparable two-hander. So, you have no argument that it gives you a stat boost. Runeforging? A mix and match? I could gain maybe a 2% parry bonus and a 1% armor buff from another. Please. Give me a truly valid and logical argument for how this is a threat or survival advantage for the DK.

I'm going to put this in bold print.... just to make myself super-special clear.....

You are sacrificing performance for aesthetics. You are intentionally playing against the strengths of the spec in order to look a particular way. You are intentionally sacrificing your ability to perform well in your role in the group for the sake of appearance and "looking cool".

Can you do this? Yes. You are well within your right to do so. You are totally free to do what you want. I totally get that you want to be the emo-undead Drizzt Do'Urden. Roger that. Just don't be surprised when healers don't want to heal for you and other players suddenly don't want to run dungeons or raids with you. You did it to yourself when you said to them, by your decision to run as a dw blood tank in 4.2, that you don't care what impact you have on others, so long as you "look cool".

As for the pve vs pvp weapon, that's really a small issue. Yes. I'd prefer a pve weapon. A pvp weapon is not make or break for probably 80-90% of content. Maybe it would be for heroic Firelands. I frankly don't know. But arguing pve vs pvp weapon when a person clearly doesn't understand the fundamental functions of threat and survivability..... lol.....

Leucifer
10-07-2011, 09:59 AM
The whole DK DW tanking thing will get more prevalent in 4.3 when DS gives you a heal even if it misses. So you'll have increased threat (which we have now) and there will be no reason to have to have hit. The DW DK tanks will be out in force.

Can you even reforge resilience? I didn't think you could.

Even with guaranteed deathstrike heals and increased threat, it would still be at a significant disadvantage to the two-hander blood DK. Deathstrike for these people will STILL only hit with the damage of a one hander, as would heart strike and rune strike. You would still be gimping your threat gen.... and survival.

And even if you are somehow able to make it work, you will still be underperforming.

leethaxor
10-07-2011, 02:42 PM
If you look at it from a MAX/MIN perspective your damage will be close around 50-25% of normal plus depending on weapons (I'll sim it latter tonight) it will offer more stats then 2H (depending on yet to datamined items). Not to mention the blood worms, which will be at least 100hps gain in 10man, a bit more in 25man with more melee.

uglie
10-07-2011, 05:46 PM
I do believe the threat boost has already been implemented with the release of FL. The threat boost went from 300% of the dmg done to 500% which is only a 67% threat boost. This is not enough extra threat to make up for the loss in threat from 2 1H weapons. Pretty much you'll be doing pre-threat boost threat while other tanks are doing 67% more than you. This will cause threat problems between the tanks on tank swap fight and thus causing not only less damage from you but also from the other tank because he now has to stop dps for a longer time and still hold off so he doesn't pull threat prematurely. If the other tank gets lucky or unlucky (depending on how you look at it) crit on their high threat move or even their "spam" ability they will more than likely pull threat at the wrong time which could cause a tank death and thus a wipe. So GG you just caused a wipe because you wanted to look different.

As for getting more blood worms, the extra healing will not outweigh the extra time spent killing the boss costing healers more mana.

The extra avoidance you might gain from 2 1H weapons will actually result in taking more damage over the course of the fight due to the fight being longer.

Even though DW might look good on paper, in practice it just falls flat on its face.

leethaxor
10-07-2011, 06:57 PM
You are talking about a reduction in tank dps by about 1.7 to 1.6 k (based on my guild's tank). I don't know of many fights where you bring 1 class of tank over a different class of tanks because of the tanks dps (looking at H baleroc 25 week 2 as an example) instead you bring them because of their ability to survive so you can bring as few healers as possible.


***EDIT**
After 50k sims of each.
13870.8 dps with the shannox 2H
11250.4 dps with dual beth weapons.

2640 dps loss.

Leucifer
10-07-2011, 07:22 PM
If you look at it from a MAX/MIN perspective your damage will be close around 50-25% of normal plus depending on weapons (I'll sim it latter tonight) it will offer more stats then 2H (depending on yet to datamined items). Not to mention the blood worms, which will be at least 100hps gain in 10man, a bit more in 25man with more melee.

How do you figure it offers more stats?

Skullstealer Greataxe (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71014) vs Mandible of Beth'tilac (http://www.wowhead.com/item=70922)

Skullstealer gives you 408 str and 611 stam. Mandible x2 gives you 252 str and 524 stam.
You're behind by 50+ on str and 80+ on stam.

Skullstealer gives you 276 haste and 265 mastery. Reforge haste into dodge and you'd get like 110 dodge and 166 haste. Mandible x2 gives you 252 dodge and 198 mastery. In this case, the axe is blowing the sword out of the water on mastery to the tune of 67 points. Sword comes out ahead on dodge by 142.

So, you're sacrificing 50 strength, 80 stam, and 67 mastery, for 142 dodge? Really?

OH.... and let's not forget, because you've decided to run DW, you now still need to take stats and shift them to hit and expertise to make up for the lack of threat generation. Sure, you have a big fat buff.... but it means ABSOLFREAKIN'LUTELY NOTHING if you DON'T HIT YOUR TARGET.

So, you'll be intentionally gimping your survival stats to make up for the loss of threat that you have to compensate for.

As for this...........

Not to mention the blood worms, which will be at least 100hps gain in 10man, a bit more in 25man with more melee.
How do you figure more in 25 man with more melee? Bloodworms only proc off YOUR melee attacks. Other people's attacks don't contribute. And as for your heal gain..... 100 hps? 100 hps over the course of a 5 minute boss fight is 30,000 health. You really think 30k in heals over a boss fight lasting 5 minutes is a significant contribution?

If you wanna run it (as I just saw you say you were going to in the shout box) go for it.
When you come back disappointed, which, at this point, I don't think we're going to be able to make you see our point anyway, no QQ allowed.

Oh, and while you're at it, make sure you bring back World of Logs or some sort of proof of it working and being comparable to 2H.

leethaxor
10-08-2011, 12:19 AM
We talked about it in the shoutbox. But seeing as like 6 members out of the 10k+ member tankspot has actually spend their lives in the shoutbox I'll reiterate from everyone else.


How do you figure it offers more stats?
Refer to post #11 in this thread then 14 and 16. In these you will find character profiles on chardev.org


OH.... and let's not forget, because you've decided to run DW, you now still need to take stats and shift them to hit and expertise to make up for the lack of threat generation. Sure, you have a big fat buff.... but it means ABSOLFREAKIN'LUTELY NOTHING if you DON'T HIT YOUR TARGET.
Via my post before this


After 50k sims of each.
13870.8 dps with the shannox 2H
11250.4 dps with dual beth weapons.
With the roughly 5x bonus to threat you are generating 55k threat per second. You have cooldowns like dancing rune wep that give additional threat if the current buff isn't enough. I see no reason to pick up additional hit and expertise unless burst threat is a large problem... And honestly we still have tools that play with the threat table.

Edit: Also if threat is such an issue for blood why do blood dk's purposely change their rotation via delaying GCD's so they can time blood strikes more?


How do you figure more in 25 man with more melee? Bloodworms only proc off YOUR melee attacks.
In 25man there is more melee to get splashed on when your blood worm pops. My theory is that will make the blood worm heal for more. I state that this will need more testing, as my blood worm tps theory is based around 10man raiding. Also with the dragon soul changes we can expect to see more melee hopefully which will also inadvertently buff this build.

Airowird
10-08-2011, 04:51 AM
You cannot reforge to or from resilience.In that case yeah, definately not worth using PvP gear then, as you'll be having the stats of a 346 blue on a 378 PvP item.

Bovinity
10-08-2011, 05:04 AM
In that case yeah, definately not worth using PvP gear then, as you'll be having the stats of a 346 blue on a 378 PvP item.

Not really, considering that primary stats are so huge and a 371 helm has ~80 str/agi/int more than a 346 blue. Shoulders having ~58.

If you wear 371 PvP helm/shoulders (Two hard slots to fill as a beginning 85) you'll have ~208 more of your primary stat including the set bonus. You'll be giving up maybe ~240 of secondary stat itemization.

Airowird
10-08-2011, 07:59 AM
It's actaully closer to 290 secondary stats (don't forget you get 30 stats from the headpiece socket bonus, which in PvP is usually resilience). And ok, I forgot the set bonus, which makes the 371 stuff slightly better than 346 blues, but it doesn't really surpass 353 Zandi stuff.

I took the caster Shaman stuff for head & shoulders as example and the PvP gear has only 152 Intellect more (assuming all set /socket bonuses) but loses out on 307 worth of secondary stats, for most classes/specs this is about equal in stat weights. Considering the zandi stuff actually has more than 300 Spirit (in case of an Elemental Shaman this means hit rating, which actually is worth atleast as much as Intellect pre-cap), this makes the zandi stuff atleast equal and as a side bonus, it's easier to reforge once you hit the cap, because you don't have to reforge per 100 rating.

I can see someone using the Resto Shaman head/shoulders, but considering the VP bracers, craftable boots and the relatively easy to get Avengers belt, that's the only thing worth taking and ONLY because of the set bonus of 70 Intellect bumping it up.
Note that a 'simple' BoT PuG doing 3/4 could also net you a decent 359 headpiece & shoulders, which imho are better than the 371 PvP stuff. I guess the 384 stuff would be better untill FL stuff, but would you really want to waste 3300 Conquest points on temporary stuff if you plan to raid anyway?

Overall, I think that except for head/shoulders and in some cases, weaponry are an upgrade from BGs than from raids, mostly because of the ease to get them in PvP and the lack of decent armor pieces between ZA/ZG and +6/7 FL and the high DPS/SP on the PvP weapons due to ilvl. But this is a design flaw, which (I hope) will see a correction in 4.3 with the LFR grating access to some decent upgrades for those slots outside of PvP.

Hmmm, dunno to be glad or not about us moving the discussion away from DK DW tanks :P

Bovinity
10-08-2011, 08:18 AM
but it doesn't really surpass 353 Zandi stuff.

Right, I'd never use a 371 PvP over a 353 ZA/ZG, unless there was some very particular reason why. Generally if I'm wearing PvP gear it's because I'm on a fresh 85 and have little choice though and I'm in ZA/ZG specifically to get gear. Seems to be something a lot of raiders forget, people go to 5-mans to get gear, not just to farm VP for the week.


Note that a 'simple' BoT PuG doing 3/4 could also net you a decent 359 headpiece & shoulders, which imho are better than the 371 PvP stuff.

Assuming a fresh 85 would get into a BoT. (Having flashbacks of people expecting T6 gear to get into Karazhan here, ugh) and that the stuff drops, and they win the roll and etc etc.

Ultimately the point is that the blind hate against PvP gear in 5-mans is just silly. There's no reason for it, people are just trained to freak out when they see it.

Airowird
10-08-2011, 08:43 AM
If you're fresh in 333-346ish blues, thus ready for ZA/G, why bother farming Honor for gear?
If you want to 'finish' your 5man gear, it's Conquest vs BoT/BWL pugs really and as said they're pretty close to each other.

The thing is now, especially with the Honor gained requirements, it's not always faster to get the PvP gear first. Not to mention that if you are serious about improving your character, might as well do 5mans to learn more about the job you intent to do. If you're not caring about improving your char then 1) It's pointless to talk about gear upgrades and 2) GTFO of my group, I hate slackers!!

Bovinity
10-08-2011, 08:51 AM
If you're fresh in 333-346ish blues, thus ready for ZA/G, why bother farming Honor for gear?

Because a lot of us PvP anyway so we have the honor just as a consequence of what we do? Not to mention almost all of my alts has had a ton of honor saved up from BG's while leveling, so they hit 85 able to buy at least one piece right when they ding.


Not to mention that if you are serious about improving your character, might as well do 5mans to learn more about the job you intent to do. If you're not caring about improving your char then 1) It's pointless to talk about gear upgrades and 2) GTFO of my group, I hate slackers!!

Yeah, most of us have been playing long enough that the whole, "Go do 5-mans to L2P." is kinda moot. I think anyone in this thread is already beyond that point. As for "improving your character" I thought we just had the discussion on stats. Besides, remember we're talking about 5-man starter dungeons for pete's sake, exactly how "perfect" do you expect everyone's gear to be?

Theotherone
10-09-2011, 04:35 AM
Even in ZA/ZG stats make a difference. RL example from yesterday (not to get off topic, but this is kind of germane to where the thread has gone).

I needed one more ZA to cap VP for the week on the Shammy I'm gearing up. The tank is a bear in full pvp gear (think is was mostly Viscous, the 371 ilvl); I mean full right down to Spell Pen and Resilience gems; being a kinder gentler healer after going back and forth in this thread, I decide to say nothing and give him/her a chance. The run to the first boss was a royal pain, he took a lot of damage, I mean a lot, but nothing I couldn't heal through. However, his threat was horrible. Even with the buff to threat, mobs were coming off him onto me, onto the mage in the run etc. I left at the boss, it just wasn't worth the hassle cause the whole run was going to be spent mob dancing and it only gets worse further into the run.

This is the Shammy http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/alexstrasza/Ripell/simple Gearwise it's not like I'm running blues and greens trying to keep people up.

At the time of the run I had the T11 Hands and the crafted 359 chest, so gear was ballpark the same. I picked up the T11 Chest to keep the 2 piece and the T12 gloves later in the day when I had grabbed a few more JP for the Chest.

swelt
10-09-2011, 05:32 AM
This is the theory and mechanics forum. It's not a place for cool stories about random dungeons. The fact that a druid wearing gear loaded with agi and crit had trouble with threat tells you nothing about the theory or mechanics, only that he was a bad player. Unless you'd like to expound some theory on how having more dodge and mastery might have helped him produce more threat?

The maths here is fairly clear:
1) a DK can opt to use 1x1H weapons instead of 1x2H weapon and remain viable. He directly trades single target damage and threat for additional healing (from extra bloodworm procs) and depending on available gear, probably a very small amount of avoidance
2) a late starting DK (just as other classes) may find themselves with access to very high ilvl pvp gear compared to their regular pve gear. A smart player using pvp gear in this way might be making the best use of the gear available to him. An idiot wearing any gear is still an idiot.

Despite point 1, I personally would not choose to use 2x1H weapons unless I found myself (through unlucky drops for example) with significantly better 1H than 2H weapons. I find the healing from bloodworms to be largely inconsequential, the extra avoidance to be highly marginal and there are many encounters (especially in 10 man raids) where I feel that optimising my DPS is more important.

Theotherone
10-09-2011, 06:22 AM
The "cool story", as you so derisively refer to it, fit with the flow of the discussion; also, I believe, if I recall scientific theory or method correctly, observation forms a part thereof; among other things.

Tengenstein
10-09-2011, 07:12 AM
Bears are actually one of the few specs where Being kitted out in full PVP gear doesn't make too much of a difference being that unlike the rest of the tanks the primary stat is much mor important than secondary stats so while the plate tanks are all stacking mastery/avoidance, we don't care too much about strength, How many of us go "ooh thats got more strength on it" when judging upgrades? It's my understanding that Bears love agility, its so much better for them than strength is for the plate tanks. And on the other side of the coin a fair few bits of bear gear have haste on them, which is almost as useless as resilience is to a bear, yeah we platey's may quibble over hit and expertise, but those are still nice stats, there not my favourite but it's not a leper stat, it's not wasted it's still gonna make keeping our active defenses up easier, its still gonna make sure VR's and DS's land, its still gonna have quite an appreciably effect on how fast the boss dies, being threat stat capped would be about 3k more DPS in my raid. I don't think Bears can say the same for haste.

So AFAIK the choice is the often a case of, more agility and one crappy secondary stat, or less agility and a crappy secondary stat.

However, i really can't disagree with Swelt, just becuase someone's in a 5 man with PVP gear and an idiot doesn't make everyone in 5 mans with PVP gear an idiot too, though gemming spell pen and resilience and not being able to hold threat kinda makes you bad for PVE, and i would've quit too, it's not worth the hassle.

Is it really possible to get high ilvl pvp weapons easily?Ithought you had to get so many conquest points to be able to purchase them? is that really easier than tapping a BS/Eng for a 365?

Back on topic, how much of a dps loss is it to DW rather than 2h as a DK?

Krenian
10-09-2011, 09:12 AM
Well you have two routes you can go for PvP weapons right now:

1) Get 7500 honor in one season and be able to purchase the 378s.

2) Get an Arena/Rated BG team going and get the Conquest Points weapons at 394 if I'm not mistaken.

either way are a bitch to get however they are great weapons (bar the resil). You lose on one main stat tbh. The damage the weapons do for your attacks depending on Death Knight stuff actually makes it better than normal 353 pve weapons if you can balance the state difference out (and if you actually know basic math, this ain't hard.)

--

Okay. The whole Dual Wield DK thing is silly. Period. I used to be a staunch defender of DW Dks back in Wrath when we had the abilities to do it. Now? It just doesn't happen.

1) Look at every attack you do in Blood: None of them are not weapon based except AoE attacks. DW Dks were able to do well because most of their attacks in Frost, back in the day, were based on AP; not weapon skill. This allowed you to be able to keep up with threat easily enough by being able to proc more runestrikes (the ability to parry haste the mob was subjective to this and could either a) kill you faster or b) give you more threat through more runestrikes. Former normally happened if you didn't have enough avoidance. Latter happened later in the game.) Every major attack in Blood requires weapon damage and only uses the main hand weapon. Effectively, you have an Offhand that is doing SFA other than white damage and missing more often than naught.

2) The increase of stats only comes from having similar ILVL weapons, and even then it isn't that much of an increase as some pointed out by showing the tanking weapons in FL at this time. The only thing that you get, as a benefit, is the fact that you can rune a second weapon. That's it. That adds maybe 2% parry at most.

3) Remember Mastery? That lil tool of yours that most tanks love? Well that Mastery skill is severely gimped on the sole purpose your Death Strike hits like a wet noodle. So you're actually losing mitigation by doing this because you're not keeping that bubble around to keep you up and healthy. That will strain your healers.

The fact that a lot of you think that it was a threat issue only that people didn't dual wield is concerning; it was so much more. Nothing works for DW anymore in the Blood Tree. You won't do it effectively and you will actually hinder your group more than if you just grabbed a trusty two handed weapon and smacked things in the face.

Let it die folks; Blizzard doesn't want DW to be a part of the tanking scenario. The tree they made shows it, the fact that they haven't even once helped DW tanking to be plausible shows it, and just the general feel of the class shows it; we're not meant to DW in a tanking position.

Just...astounding that you guys would keep arguing this.

Bovinity
10-09-2011, 09:29 AM
3) Remember Mastery? That lil tool of yours that most tanks love? Well that Mastery skill is severely gimped on the sole purpose your Death Strike hits like a wet noodle. So you're actually losing mitigation by doing this because you're not keeping that bubble around to keep you up and healthy. That will strain your healers.

Weapon damage has nothing to with Death Strike or Blood Shield. Hell, if Death Strike didn't "Require a weapon in the main hand" like most attacks, you could use it bare-handed and get the same heal/shield.


1) Get 7500 honor in one season and be able to purchase the 378s.

Honor weapons are 359 ATM.

Krenian
10-09-2011, 09:53 AM
Weapon damage has nothing to with Death Strike or Blood Shield. Hell, if Death Strike didn't "Require a weapon in the main hand" like most attacks, you could use it bare-handed and get the same heal/shield.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49998

D (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49998)eath Strike does weapon damage, albeit only 150% unlike some other abilities. It's still indicative to the damage it can do. So using it Bare handed would give you reaaaaaaaaally bad damage.

The only thing is yes, you're right. It doesn't matter 'that' much on the sole basis that the heal/bubble is based on your health. I'll conceed that point. But you're still losing a chunk of damage you could be doing with a two hander.



Honor weapons are 359 ATM.


And corrected, Thanks for that. Haven't looked at them for a couple of days.

Bovinity
10-09-2011, 10:05 AM
It's actually 330% weapon damage in Blood spec, but yah, I was just referring to the mitigation/healing element. =D

swelt
10-09-2011, 10:27 AM
So if you read back through the thread and just read the theory posts, I think you'll find my summary is correct. Believe me, I would much rather it were a simple "Blood DKs should use 2H", but the maths just doesn't support an absolute conclusion like that. Yes, you absolutely will do more damage using a 2 hander. But since threat is relatively easy and since damage is not the prime function of a tank, there is a legitimate case for dual wielding. Depending on the gear available to you, it's quite likely that 2 'tank' 1 handers will offer more marginally avoidance than a single 2 hander because there are no 2 handers with dodge or parry on, and since blood worms proc from melee hits you get more by dual wielding. You don't get any more from the runeforges (2x2% or 1x4% parry for example), but at one point the thread was mislead by a bug in chardev.

Blizzard should kill this debate for good, make rune strike require a 2 hander or something.

Krenian
10-09-2011, 07:59 PM
Think I'm going to do my own theorycrafting in a bit and I'm going to see if there is any validation.

We will have to assume a couple of things and I'm going to use a BiS list that I can get. Furthermore, I'm going to try a BiS list that's plausible for Normal Mode FL atm. That way we can say it's in the realm of possibility.

Write up to follow.

EDIT: This might take a while and require me not to be lazy and not want to do it. TBH, looking at the info I've been looking, all indications are that it's not worth it:



Settings in BloodSim are taken from Zarko's excellent thread on tank stats at Tier 11 (World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> What we look like after one tier of raiding (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?sid=1&topicId=27026401591)) and damage based on wielding 372 weapons.
- 175,685 health, 32.36% avoidance, 46841 armor, 21 mastery
- Boss hits every 2.4 seconds for 110k-120k unmitigated damage
- 100 eight minute fights

Difference in switching from 2H to DW:
- 7.9% less damage dealt
- 9.8% less threat
- 0.1% less damage taken
- 0.7% less damage absorbed
- 1.1% more healed



From EJ's tanking site, which shows a Simulation created with both DW and 2H. You lose a lot more than you gain here. I'll run my own shortly.

leethaxor
10-27-2011, 06:59 PM
There is a drop off of deathwing called souldrinker. This may put DW over.

Pylae
12-01-2011, 01:25 PM
I'm at work so I wasn't able to read everything here, but the real factor for me is whether the top tanks are using these. Idiot theorycrafting looks a lot like genius theorycrafting when you don't have the game in front of you...but if none of the top DK tanks are DWing IMO it's very safe to say that it's not worth doing.

What I'm saying is start linking armory profiles of top DK tanks doing this or you'll never convert the masses.