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Halandir
08-16-2011, 09:42 AM
Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3300854

Massive wall-of-text about changes to one of the most fundamental aspects of tanking - threat. Here's a brief statement from the post that summarizes the actual changes:


Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see:

Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Pruke
08-16-2011, 09:46 AM
That will certainly make establishing agro at the start of the fight or after a tank swap a bit smoother.

Halandir
08-16-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm trying to figure out what I think about all this... to me this is a HUGE change to the most fundamental aspect of the role I've played for my entire WoW career and I'm not sure I'm a fan of the change. Making threat a non-issue removes one of the ways that a tank can improve their performance and the performance of the whole raid (by not throttling the dps). Making threat a non-issue also removes a way that a superior tank can set themselves apart from the rest, in the same way that a dps'er can look at damage meters to measure their performance.

It might be good for the game overall, especially with the LFG groups and the gear disparity that exists there, but for the raiding scene I'm not sure if I like it...

more on this later.

Outbackjack
08-16-2011, 09:50 AM
I couldn't believe what I was reading, I thought I was reading too much into it until he actually said "We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration."

This is astounding and I'm looking forward to this PTR. I wonder how they're going to change our abilities to fall in line with the gameplay changes GC hinted at. More active defensive abilities? Sounds pretty frickin' cool to me.

Pruke
08-16-2011, 09:51 AM
In a raid setting, I do not usually have agro issues. It's those times that I taunt off my co-tank that I worry about in a raid setting. Obviously, it works in reverse when he taunts off me I have to slow down, to give him time to get his veng. up. What I like the most is this will make it easyier to tank pug's and not have to worry about some goofball not attacking the skull. It will just make my life easier.

I think a good tank will still stand out from the bad ones. I can understand your point but I think I am a great tank, I have a good rotation/use of skills at the right time. But still at times agro can go bad and it's just a frustrating thing to happen.

PimpJuice4
08-16-2011, 09:52 AM
so whatever happened to the whole "threat should matter" or whatever they had a long time ago where they wiped threat from tanking abilities and stuff

Pruke
08-16-2011, 09:53 AM
so whatever happened to the whole "threat should matter" or whatever they had a long time ago where they wiped threat from tanking abilities and stuff

They gave tanks the bonus for running 5-mans and all kinds of crappy tanks are causing 5-mans to be worse because they can't hold agro. Or because good tanks no longer want to run them and deal with some silly DPS not killing the skull and pulling agro, causing them to deal with stuff they shouldn't need to.

Doc309
08-16-2011, 09:55 AM
so.... the only hard role will be healing....

panda/epic/carebears for everyone.

PimpJuice4
08-16-2011, 09:55 AM
so basically


"call to arms has failed us guys,lets conjure up another way to get people to roll tanks in heroics"


i wonder how long buffing tank threat will last before people quit tanking because there tired of the way dps and healers treat them in heroics

Pruke
08-16-2011, 09:59 AM
No I didn't mean it only applies to heroics. I mean that 5-man, groups (from my experience), if I am tanking them (and I feel like I am pretty solid at tanking), I will deal with a) bad healer, b) bad DPS not focus firing my marked target. The healer can be replaced, DPS can be replaced but a vast majority of the time DPS is the issue for me.

Conversly, when I am healing the tank will be either a) good but dealing with retarded DPS, b) bad tank, good DPS, but the tanks so bad the DPS are pulling agro off him even when they are playing correctly (dps can't wait forever).

So my thought is this helps 5-mans more then raids. Raids, I only really have an agro issue when my DPS are bored on trash and not paying attention. Or when my cotank or I taunt a boss off each other and we don't wait for vengence to stack on the other tank.

Krenian
08-16-2011, 10:15 AM
Well....that's an interesting change. o.O Not sure how I even like this. It's uhm...making tanking a lil easier for sure...

raquoon
08-16-2011, 10:17 AM
No I didn't mean it only applies to heroics. I mean that 5-man, groups (from my experience), if I am tanking them (and I feel like I am pretty solid at tanking), I will deal with a) bad healer, b) bad DPS not focus firing my marked target. The healer can be replaced, DPS can be replaced but a vast majority of the time DPS is the issue for me.

Conversly, when I am healing the tank will be either a) good but dealing with retarded DPS, b) bad tank, good DPS, but the tanks so bad the DPS are pulling agro off him even when they are playing correctly (dps can't wait forever).

So my thought is this helps 5-mans more then raids. Raids, I only really have an agro issue when my DPS are bored on trash and not paying attention. Or when my cotank or I taunt a boss off each other and we don't wait for vengence to stack on the other tank.

I have to agree with Pruke. Lets face it, threat is a non-issue in raids a minute into the fight after the tank has build up vengeance. DPS in raids know this and are discipline enough to hold back. This really makes life easier for random pugs where we, as tanks, deal the bad dps. I personally stop using LFG because of stupid dps pulling agro and then bitching about it. Now I only do random with guildies and never have a problem. Maybe this will let me start using the LFG tool once more for random heroics.

klausi
08-16-2011, 10:18 AM
Increasing threat by 2/5 is pretty *hum* astounishing.

Vengeance: instead of getting 5% attackpower every other hit we are capped in raid content in just one 60k hit? And decay/gain is at the same rate thus if i dodge twice in a row i'm sitting at minimum vengeance? That sounds pretty clunky for avoidance tanks (hello 50% dodge druids).

kopcap
08-16-2011, 10:27 AM
It probably is not much more than just a way to compensate for an increase in DPS and / or some game mechanics. Not very surprising that tanks would be falling a little behind by the third patch of an expansion.

Meshuggah
08-16-2011, 10:28 AM
They gave tanks the bonus for running 5-mans and all kinds of crappy tanks are causing 5-mans to be worse because they can't hold agro. Or because good tanks no longer want to run them and deal with some silly DPS not killing the skull and pulling agro, causing them to deal with stuff they shouldn't need to.

That makes total sense. I have been tanking for a few months now on my Feral Druid, and I can't stand people who haven't figured out what the kill priority is. Even if you are marking targets, they go for the one without the mark. This should be good, although i do agree it will make tanking so easy that it may diminish the difference between a good and bad. Although, you can still tell if they gem Stam only.....

PimpJuice4
08-16-2011, 10:33 AM
That makes total sense. I have been tanking for a few months now on my Feral Druid, and I can't stand people who haven't figured out what the kill priority is. Even if you are marking targets, they go for the one without the mark. This should be good, although i do agree it will make tanking so easy that it may diminish the difference between a good and bad. Although, you can still tell if they gem Stam only.....

theres just as many bad tanks in heroics as there is dps.plus,you can carry a bad dps,you cant carry a bad tank


although,druid tanks were pretty crappy before they lowered the cooldown on swipe and did some other stuff in my opinion

Meshuggah
08-16-2011, 10:35 AM
theres just as many bad tanks in heroics as there is dps.plus,you can carry a bad dps,you cant carry a bad tank


although,druid tanks were pretty crappy before they lowered the CD on swipe and did some other stuff in my opinion

Yep, the ones who stam stack, don't know rotations, don't gem new gear, too lazy to get rep, reforge spirit instead of dodge. Sadly, i've seen it all.

Tengenstein
08-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Urg, While i agree having tank game play built around keeping Defensives up could be fun, But tbh working more like Deathstrikes isn't fun, i play a warrior becuase i like being a warrior, I like that we have toManually keep TC and Demo debuffs up, i don't want Deathstrikes.

I like the long term goal of vengeance stacking fast at low levels and slowly at high levels, the 5x damage band aid make me cringe. But as a hot fix? great so until they sort out making active defensive game play work i don't have it and i don't even have the challenge of pulling nice numbers or worrying about threat. It really make me reconsider my subscription.

Loganisis
08-16-2011, 11:33 AM
When is SWTOR coming out?

But seriously... what this means is basically if you're in a decent raid group, threat will officially become irrelevent. It'll still be nice for 5mans, where the 15% buff and T13 geared toons will be pulling 40k in AoE situations mindlessly spamming 1 button... But wow. The 5x multiplier strikes me as way over the top.

*****


We could make Shield Block cost rage
Shield Block (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2565)

I'm guessing he means cost ludicruous speed amounts of rage?

*****

Outside the increase to initial vengence, I don't see anything here that would actually appeal to a tank looking for a challenge. It certainly has appeal to bad tanks... but as was mentioned above, this becomes a bigger band-aid instead of learning to play.

Except of course if they make rage dependent on landing attacks instead of damage done. In which case I can see all those 'bad' tanks getting even worse.... Or everyone rolls pally with the built in Expertise.

*****

Overall... I think good tanks will adapt to any change. Bad tanks will still be bad, because instead of making it easier (if it's more than just the 3x to 5x +larger initial vengence) there will still be as much (or more) room to fail (if rage becomes RNG for tanks, and survability tools like SB become more rage intensive...).

So it's an entirely 'flavor' change methinks. And I'm not enjoying the first taste.

Loganisis
08-16-2011, 11:41 AM
Increasing threat by 2/5 is pretty *hum* astounishing.

Vengeance: instead of getting 5% attackpower every other hit we are capped in raid content in just one 60k hit? And decay/gain is at the same rate thus if i dodge twice in a row i'm sitting at minimum vengeance? That sounds pretty clunky for avoidance tanks (hello 50% dodge druids).

Lets see... 200k HP tank maxes out at 20k AP from Vengence. Means that if the first attack hits for 60k, they are maxed out. ... Yeah... in some raid scenarios the tank will be capped after one hit.

Doesn't vengence take 10 seconds to fall off? Or is it a 10%/s decay? I've never understood how vengence decays.

Pruke
08-16-2011, 11:44 AM
Seems to me that in the case of "good" tanks, they already don't "worry" about threat. I will say this makes raiding as a tank even that much easier, I guess I won't have to pre-pot with golemblood on major domo now so my DPS doesn't have to wait 5 seconds. But what this really does is making tanking a 5 man easier for me. As it stands now I dread when I need a 5-man run to cap my weekly points only to enter and find out that the 3 DPS that are doing 20k each don't know that the skull means kill me 1st. So I have mobs all over, I can let them die if I want to take even more time to get the run done. I can drop group when they claim I suck, or I can vote kick them and hope the replacement isn't as bad as they are. In the end, it makes my 5-mans, that I don't get gear or reputation for anymore that much easier on me.

While some may like the challenge of keeping agro off of 3-DPS in a PuG 5-man because those 3-DPS suck, I personally do not.

In raids, I do have people who will ride my butt at the start if I am not doing everything right, thats fine. But it's the times I do it right and get a string of dodge/parry/miss and have either no rage, or my attacks don't land. DPS my go right past me and cause me to taunt, and yell at them in vent for not watching omen. Not a big deal, doesn't happen real often, beside it's a raid people should have to pay closer attention to things so I am 100% behind threat at the start taking some ramp up time, requiring DPS to watch their butt. In a 5-man, where if I am not with guildmates and have 4 other PuG people and the DPS are impatient or incompetent players, I would rather just not have this as a frustration. So in that light I welcome the change.

Not to mention, I think that threat in the future maybe more of an issue in raids due to DPS gearing up more and more. So they system needed a bit of work. Maybe it's just an unneeded bandade for raiding, but it's a quality of life improvement for 5-man content.

Fetzie
08-16-2011, 11:45 AM
Doesn't vengence take 10 seconds to fall off? Or is it a 10%/s decay? I've never understood how vengence decays.

10% of the current vengeance amount per second if I am not mistaken.

Halandir
08-16-2011, 11:53 AM
Did anyone else catch that the original post didn't include the hotfix notice? They hotfixed the post to include the hotfix update.

Geach
08-16-2011, 12:16 PM
some type of in game feed back system in the stock ui I really think would help things more. Kinda like how pvp has it's scoreboard. Granted it is not an easy thing to do but I really do feel it would of been a better long term solution. Since going through the combat log to isn't an easy thing to do quickly in it's current state. Even with addons/parsers it can be a bit clunky at times.

The rest of I am not as sure if it was tuned to high or not but I will wait and see.

PimpJuice4
08-16-2011, 12:46 PM
I think that threat in the future maybe more of an issue in raids due to DPS gearing up more and more

that would probably only be a issue if your tanks eather.are underperforming,or your dps are stupid and blowing all there cooldowns 2 seconds after the tank pulls and doesnt even have enough time to do half his rotation on the boss

Spiritus
08-16-2011, 01:34 PM
Hahaha... we recorded FJ yesterday night. Guess what our first topic is? Thanks for the thunderjack GC!

But, I'll be flat out honest. I hate it. I'm sorry but this goes way, way beyond "quality of life." This is essentially removing a mechanic. I have a crappy warrior alt tank that I actually took into 5mans with HQ raiders from my guild [as well as raids]. They did not hold back. I held aggro. Why? Because I cared to understand what the heck I was doing with warriors in regards to threat. That is a measurement of difficultly and skill. I succeeded where others have failed [as others have succeeded where I have failed]. What does it mean when you shift that line? Reduction of difficulty and reduction of required skill.

Hey, guess what, I like games that require me to put a little effort in. That's just me. I'm not everyone. Moves like this which, to quote GC, make a core gameplay element " not a major consideration" doesn't seem like the direction I want to travel down. What is the next core gameplay element that they are going to get "over the concept" of?

How about hit? Why do we have it? All the things said about threat in this blog post could be said about hit. Get rid of it. What changes? Nothing except it's one less thing you have to worry about. Heck, it's even a QoL change b/c you'll not have to worry about missing spells when you're leveling.

How about Spirit? Seems like something that could be "not a major consideration"ed out of the design. Just tie regen to INT. BOOM. One less thing to balance.

This is most likely the biggest QQ post you'll ever read from me, but this criticism isn't just for the purpose of venting [though it is partly]. It is also to step up on the soapbox for a few brief seconds and seriously ask the following questions, "Could this move be the tipping point for WoW sliding into, quite literally, faceroll?" Ok, that's a bit of a stretch, but in all seriousness. I'm not a tank. I've never had threat issues when tanking any content I've tanked, with people who far outgeared me playing roles they were comfortable with and not holding back. HOW is increasing threat FIXING the problem with a lackluster design for threat generation? Oh wait, it isn't. Instead of fixing the leak in the pipe, they said, "Screw it. *SMASH* There. Now it isn't a leaky pipe, but an indoor river! See? It's ok now to have water on your floor!"

What DOES this change do? It makes it so that folks who do not care to become community members in a freaking MMO, people who treat others they meet in RDF like they are f'ing BOTS, can basically do whatever they want and win and not learn a darn thing about the genre. No. This is not a QoL change. This is, "Hey, so we are changing the rules of the game because the players aren't following the rules and failing at our design." Well, damn. Guess what. My pawns in Chess now can teleport to anywhere on the board. Wanna play chess now?

/dropmic

Bovinity
08-16-2011, 01:58 PM
Eh, Spiritus, lets face it. Threat hasn't been a genuine issue for a long time. Even as far back as TBC Blizzard has said they don't really think Threat as a mechanic is very fun, it's just kind of a necessary relic of the MMO genre. (And I agree, honestly)

Tanks have played like crappy DPS classes for a long time anyway. The entire premise of the role - soaking damage - has always been almost completely passive while the player mashes DPS rotations. Imagine if a Hunter did 95% of their DPS via autoshot and instead all their actual interaction/button pushing was focused around keeping heal-over-time effects on the group. Wouldn't that seem strange, a class whose primary focus is passive and instead spends all their actual effort on something else entirely? Well, that's how tanking has behaved for a long time.

Threat as a mechanic is necessary for WoW to work the way it does, I suppose, but it need not be the entire focus of a tank. Why not have more tank abilities that focus on mitigation and survival in the same way that a DPS class focuses on more damage?

Theotherone
08-16-2011, 02:06 PM
Moving more toward tying hit/exp to survival e.g. DK Death Strike; which I personally like, makes those stats useful. Hell, as they say given the choice most tanks gravitate to survival anyway.

I think it's for the better.

Kemanorel
08-16-2011, 02:09 PM
Guess what. My pawns in Chess now can teleport to anywhere on the board. Wanna place chess now?

/dropmic

I'm white. Checkmate. Play again?

Halandir
08-16-2011, 02:10 PM
Spiritus & Bovinity both bring up great points. I'm really torn on this because I identify with both sides.

If active, skill-dependent survival replaces threat as an indicator of how good a tank is, I think it would take a while for recognition of the new skill-set to catch on because it would be more difficult to quantify. In fact, I think it would take most tanks a while to adjust to the more active style of tanking that DK's currently utilize.

truculent
08-16-2011, 02:28 PM
Threat as a mechanic is necessary for WoW to work the way it does, I suppose, but it need not be the entire focus of a tank. Why not have more tank abilities that focus on mitigation and survival in the same way that a DPS class focuses on more damage?

We had a similar conversation a while back about something similar. I think it was about spell reflect. the idea that now with an extended cd, blizzard could in theory, make the ability actually worth somthing in pve.

the question is did they? and will they?

As of today prot warriors still have some 3-5 talent points in a tree that are basically pointless, and the ability is still worthless for a boss fight.

I don't see blizzard changing the style of tanking to revolve around mitigation. Otherwise they would have changed the prot tree at the time.


However, threat was broken and it needed this fix. tanks were basically being judged in the first 20 seconds of a fight, gearing for the first 20 seconds of the fight, specing for the first 20 seconds of the fight. That's silly.

I like the threat mechanic, but not if its only going to last 20 seconds. blizzard needed to go all in one way or the other and they went with taking threat off the table.

what I dislike is the role has been totally destroyed from what it was. the once most-fun-to-play role is now designed for any idiot to come in and play. This is going to result in more careless people taking on the role of tank and the never ending " QQ the tank" trend is only going to get worse.


sad year for tanks really. maybe next xpac

Darksend
08-16-2011, 02:29 PM
/rant (Please stay tuned after the rant for your normally scheduled coherent thoughts on the topic)

NEWS FLASH: BLIZZARD FINALLY ADDS SPECTATOR MODE TO THE GAME! Codename: TANKS!

Dps wants shorter que times

blizzard sees more people play dps than tanks

blizzard says "HERE YA GO DPS WILL THIS MAKE YOU HAPPY! O and screw you tanks, the only reason you had for playing is now gone!"

All they had to do was increase the threat modifier on all aoe abilites, make thunderclap, swipe, and what do dks and pallies use DnD and Hammer? Do damage x 1000000 = threat. PROBLEM SOLVED!

I cannot possibly create a coherent thought on this topic with how enrage I am at the moment.


Tanks are busy



I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.



ARE YOU KIDDING ME!

/sigh ....

I will give you a little sneak peak from last nights recording (which finished literally 6 hours before this was posted thanks GC you couldn't have waited a week!), so here is pretty much exactly what I said last night:


If there is no "stand in this and you will die" mechanic, I can go afk on a boss at 30% and not lose agro, maybe even sooner than that, threat is no longer a part of the game on boss fights
also

IMO, threat was only an issue when you had to move. If you had to move for 6 seconds, thats 4 globals. If you only manage 1 global while you are moving because of contact time, you will lose threat. Vengeance solved that, but it took it way to far. Vengeance needs to be a stopgap that allows you to hold threat while moving and not hitting the boss for 5 seconds out of a minute, not go afk at 30% like it allows you to do now.

IT IS VENGEANCE THAT IS BROKEN BLIZZARD NOT THREAT! I simply cannot understand where you are trying to take your game right now. Some of the design choices you are making are clearly SCREAMING TO US! "all we want to do with WoW is make money and we no longer care about the minority" This is nothing new to those of us in top end raiding guilds, but we were the VERY VERY small minority, tanks are a major minority.


Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer.

Does this really happen!? Honestly blizzard what are you thinking? If a warrior or DK pulls off a tank 3 minutes into the fight, the tank is doing something wrong, or they have so much avoidance that they have no vengeance at all for extended periods of time. Make avoided hits count towards vengeance and undo these changes. PLEASE! I IMPLORE YOU!!!!! THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO KEEP MY ATTENTION AS A TANK ANYMORE! AT ALL! You might as well just rename the tank role "SPECTATOR/"ZOMG MOVE BEFORE YOU DIE!" CALLER"

/endrant

Now .... coherent thoughts.

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS CHANGE FOR SUCH A LONG TIME! If blizzard can actually pull it off. What am I talking about? ACTIVE TAKE SURVIVAL!

Let's face it, the only tank that has that mechanic right now is the one being shunned by the top guilds. But the reason for that is because THEY ARE THE ONLY ONE!

I have been saying for years, the reason blizzard needs to make threat matter is because it is the only thing tanks have to worry about. Counting trinkets, tanks are under some sort of cooldown about 20%-30% of the time, even more with the 4pc t12 bonus. So managing cooldowns is no longer a skill. We survive damage on the whims of our healers. As long as we did not die to a "do not stand in this mechanic", we have 0 control over if we live or die. The only thing a tank lives for right now is to maintain threat.

I have been pushing for active tank survival for so long, making numerous posts during alpha asking them to give us a choice between threat and living. At the beginning of this expansion PALADINS HAD THE MOST AMAZING MODEL EVER! spend holy power on threat (shield) or on living (word of glory). I quit playing my paladin alt the day they announced the cooldown on WoG. Druids have something similiar, pulverize. To bad it turned out to be something you keep up 100% of the time and there is really no choice about it.

At the same time, as much as I want this, and blizzard wants this. They themselves in the past hold the reason as to why this method will fail. They removed crushing blows in WOTLK because shield block every 5 seconds was just to "spammy". Now maybe if we only have to hit <mangle, shield slam, crusader strike> every 20 seconds to hold threat, then the spammy concern goes out the window because it will be the only thing we are hitting instead of holding threat while spamming shield block. Actually I think this is exactly why they are making this change, because blizzard can now answer "well active tank survival is to spammy" with "you never called threat spammy when all you had to do was hold threat, it was only when you had to hold threat and hit shield block." Game design to counter forum trolls.

I do not know, I see A LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of promise in this model, but only if all 4 tanks work the same way, not 3 passive and 1 that gets destroyed.

TLDR: THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO KEEP MY ATTENTION AS A TANK ANYMORE! AT ALL! But if blizzard can successfully make active tank survival for all classes and not be "spammy"

THIS WILL BE AN AMAZING GAME BREAKING CHANGE FOR TANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reading the "Long-term changes" section of that watercooler I cannot help but think "THIS IS WHAT I WAS PUSHING FOR ALL DURING ALPHA AND BETA!!!! ... NOW YOU DECIDE TO DO IT!" But I have lost a lot of faith in blizzard since this expansion released, and while during alpha and beta I thought they could pull it off, I no longer believe they can.

truculent
08-16-2011, 02:32 PM
This is going to result in more careless people taking on the role of tank and the never ending " QQ the tank" trend is only going to get worse.

ironicly, the very next post proved this very point. troll qq troll qq blah...

Darksend
08-16-2011, 02:37 PM
ironicly, the very next post proved this very point. troll qq troll qq blah...

If you had actually taken the time to read my post, you would have realized it was anything but ...

Answer this: Why do tanks care about threat so much:


Imagine if a Hunter did 95% of their DPS via autoshot and instead all their actual interaction/button pushing was focused around keeping heal-over-time effects on the group. Wouldn't that seem strange, a class whose primary focus is passive and instead spends all their actual effort on something else entirely? Well, that's how tanking has behaved for a long time.

Answer: Because we had nothing else to care about. If we did not have to hold threat tanks would be nothing more than damage soaking bots.

If we no longer had to care about threat, blizzard can design tanks to actually care about the role they are supposed to be doing ... Mitigating as much damage as possible.

I will say this again since you ignored me the first time I said it ...

THIS IS THE BEST CHANGE EVER FOR TANKS! IT WILL MAKE TANKING SO MUCH MORE FUN! ... but only if blizzard gets it right

Bovinity
08-16-2011, 02:39 PM
Answer: Because we had nothing else to care about. If we did not have to hold threat tanks would be nothing more than damage soaking bots.

If we no longer had to care about threat, blizzard can design tanks to actually care about the role they are supposed to be doing ... Mitigating as much damage as possible.

I will say this again since you ignored me the first time I said it ..

Really? C'mon, did you not read my post?

Darksend
08-16-2011, 02:40 PM
Increasing threat by 2/5 is pretty *hum* astounishing.

Vengeance: instead of getting 5% attackpower every other hit we are capped in raid content in just one 60k hit? And decay/gain is at the same rate thus if i dodge twice in a row i'm sitting at minimum vengeance? That sounds pretty clunky for avoidance tanks (hello 50% dodge druids).

This THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! 1000x over THIS! Vengeance needs to count the damage you would have received from an attack you avoid.

Tengenstein
08-16-2011, 02:48 PM
I wish I could be constructive but yeah, I hate the hotfix, it makes me want to cry, I really like WOW, but this feels like a deal breaker. sorry blizz.

Darksend
08-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Really? C'mon, did you not read my post?

Yes ... I am not really sure why you say this when ...


Threat hasn't been a genuine issue for a long time. Even as far back as TBC Blizzard has said they don't really think Threat as a mechanic is very fun, it's just kind of a necessary relic of the MMO genre. (And I agree, honestly)

I agree with your agreement.

My point is, as was yours, our main role has always been a passive component. So in order to keep ourselves as tanks engaged in content, we have conditioned ourselves into believing that the role of the tank was to keep threat. No!, the main role of the tank is to mitigate as much damage as possible.

I have be at the forefront of pushing for a change like this since alpha, and I really hope blizzard can pull it off.

Kemanorel
08-16-2011, 02:51 PM
Speaking as a DPS, threat is my concern, not that of the tank. The only role who should not be mindful of threat is ideally a healer, who should be supporting the tank in their primary concern... not dying. Having tanks be threat bots just leads to them feeling like an extension of, rather than a part of, the raid team.

ananoon
08-16-2011, 03:17 PM
As DK tank in our raid group, I completely agree with the previous posts that have stated that threat is a non-issue after the first 20 seconds of a fight. The only time it's ever an issue is on fights where we have the dps prepot and lust at start, and even then, it's not a big deal. It just means I have to pay attention to omen a bit more, and potentially use a taunt if I'm in danger of slipping below a dps.

I'm guessing that Blizzard probably has multiple reasons for why they made this change.


If threat is only an issue for the first 20 seconds out of a 7 minute fight, it's not really an interesting mechanic of the game and can be done away with.
Quality of Life for 5 mans will increase.
They probably see dps scaling with high-end gear such that initial threat may be more of a concern. I know that on Rhyolith, if a boomkin blows his mushrooms before I get a few ticks of dnd and/or some heart strikes in on the fragments, there's no way I'm getting threat back from him on all of them before they die. We haven't started on heroic modes yet, but we will be soon. I've heard that this is more of an issue with gear scaling in heroic modes.
Lastly, they're probably paving the way to making tanking more about active mitigation. I'm guessing Blizzard doesn't want to make multiple radical changes to tanking mechanics all at once, so they're easing it in. If they make active mitigation for tanks other than DKs a core mechanic, they have to ease up on something else, otherwise they'll be making tanking harder than most of what current tanks want. Those tanks that chose Palys over a DK probably don't like the extra amount of work involved with maintaining both threat and active mitgation, so removing some of the threat issue will probably make the active mitigation pill easier to swallow for them.

pulled
08-16-2011, 03:54 PM
hmmm. Keeping up your rotation seems like it will only matter for close enrage fights now.

Theotherone
08-16-2011, 04:17 PM
This really isn't directed at the raid tank, this is for 5 mans and the unwashed masses. What I think Blizz is seeing, is that as you increase the stats that increase the dps to deal with the ever increasing mob hp, the average tank in a 5 man isn't keeping up with threat. Overgeared dps v. new tank and new tank is getting shit on. Maybe they could have just tweaked the threat modifiers, but why use a crow bar to open a door when dynomite is so much more effective.

In the end, I think it will turn out to be much ado about nothing. The game goes on and to keep the franchise going, they need to appeal to the majority.

kasanagi
08-16-2011, 06:15 PM
Agree with what Darksend said - the long term changes is what really matters here. The only effect I can see is how this may affect prot pvp in RBG.

I think the underlying message from GC is that raid mechanics is now FAR more important than individual class/role mechanics - of course this has always been the case since his crusade for homogenization started, but turning threat into a binary option pushed that further.

Katarn
08-16-2011, 06:21 PM
Just to clear up some misinformation in here.

1) Vengeance Cap is (BaseHealth + (0.1 * Stamina))
2) Vengeance Decay while being attacked is 5% of current Vengeance.
3) Vengeance Decay while not being attacked is 10% of Max Vengeance reached.
4) Vengeance "attack" polling is on a 2 second interval, along with each decay.

PimpJuice4
08-16-2011, 06:50 PM
so wait,did they already do the hotfixes? i thought this was a thing that wasnt gonna be put in this week.as far as the threat change thing but i heard some people talkin about firelands trash bein wierd or somethin and apparently a bunch of people were sayin that the hotfixes were put in

might find me a tank spec for my warrior and try out tankin again and see if i actually like it(i havent tanked since like lvl 20 and im like lvl 76 lol).actually i just found a blue post and it said the change was live,hmmm.im tempted to make a prot spec again on my warrior

Tengenstein
08-16-2011, 07:10 PM
This really isn't directed at the raid tank, this is for 5 mans and the unwashed masses. What I think Blizz is seeing, is that as you increase the stats that increase the dps to deal with the ever increasing mob hp, the average tank in a 5 man isn't keeping up with threat. Overgeared dps v. new tank and new tank is getting shit on. Maybe they could have just tweaked the threat modifiers, but why use a crow bar to open a door when dynomite is so much more effective.

In the end, I think it will turn out to be much ado about nothing. The game goes on and to keep the franchise going, they need to appeal to the majority.

But won't the non overgeared tank be running at High vengeance, whereas the over geared raid tank will have trouble stacking it.

koivu
08-16-2011, 10:23 PM
This isn't a huge deal. Vengeance already trivialized threat a long time ago. Tanks will still need to follow their rotation since they're doing 1/2 to 2/3 the damage of a damage dealer. Threat isn't a factor for all bosses in firelands - what is a factor is the fight mechanics. You want to afk on shannox... you'll stand in an immolation trap and die (and one can make the same argument for almost all the bosses in firelands).

What is huge deal is that they're taking an arguably failed mechanic (dk tanking) and deciding to apply it to all tanks. They'll have to nerf boss damage or everyone is in a world of hurt. Right now pallies and druids are picked by the top guilds exactly because of the passive damage reduction.

Brage
08-17-2011, 01:04 AM
I don't see this change as anything special.
First of; The importance of threat was removed a long time ago. We haven't had to fight for threat ever since TBC pretty much - yes, even on trash mobs.
Secondly; The overall dps of dps classes is and has always been scaling a lot better than the threat of tanks, since threat =/ dps intirely. I could imagine this change being implimented as a preemptive fix for upcomming changes to something perhaps.

If you're raiding in a successfull guild and you allready have competent dps'ers and tanks, this hotfix won't really change anything for you, other than solid threat being established a few seconds faster than usual and tanks contributing a tiny bit more to overall damage done.

Kahmal
08-17-2011, 01:44 AM
So threat will pretty much be a non issue like it was back in Wrath of the Lich King. Personally I liked it when threat was an actual factor back in The Burning Crusade. However things were different back then, there was no DR on avoidance and it was easy to itemize a decent threat set, also DPS was far more aware that they couldn't just nuke things to hell. They had to follow what the tank was attack and so forth since it wasn't really an AoE fest back then.

WoTLK killed all of that. Cataclysm tried to bring threat back into play, but I personally dont think it worked as intended. First of all mastery is just to good to pass up in exchange for hit and expertise, even back in Wrath you wanted decent threat stats for your normal set. In Cata you complete disregarded it for mastery. This made tanking on a Warrior extremely frustrating since we have problems with initial threat since unlike Paladins we dont start with a full resource bar.

Overall its a good change but another prime example of how WoTLK killed a good mechanic of TBC that Cata tried to salvage but wasn't able to do. In the end the game just gets easier.

pulled
08-17-2011, 03:33 AM
I just hope that they get rid of exp/hit on teir gear if they think its soo bad. B4 there really wasnt a need for it now its straight up wasted space.

Fetzie
08-17-2011, 03:37 AM
Pulled, the long term goal is to make exactly those stats, hit and expertise, matter.

feralminded
08-17-2011, 08:32 AM
Pulled, the long term goal is to make exactly those stats, hit and expertise, matter. And it will be awesome if they get it right. The current environment of Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Str > Stamina > * was exceptionally boring. Honestly I have a custom set for Alysrazor that I've been wearing on every normal mode boss except Ragnaros because then I could at least try and DPS competitively (getting closer to 20k on Domo ... almost *real* DPS numbers). In the end yeah tanks currently have a lot of fight mechanics to worry about which is awesome ... give us a damage reduction game to play for the entire fight instead of TPS game to play for the first 20 seconds and we win.

That said I have been tanking since vanilla when I used to have to press shield block every 5 seconds as part of my survival rotation ... looks like we're headed right back to where we started :)

Rystrave
08-17-2011, 09:10 AM
I was going to say, the only time I have trouble with aggro is when someone explodes right off the bat and doesn't let my vengeance stack, but that's only in 5m heroics. I'm not a fan of this. Tanking is learned, not just handed to anyone.

Kahmal
08-17-2011, 08:52 PM
might be cool to lower the range on taunt back to the old days to compensate.

Beefius
08-18-2011, 12:05 AM
I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!

Seriously, tanking is a role that historically has had far too many barriers to entry; its a complete reversal of the DPS role (dont care about damage, encourage mobs to hit you, wtf?) and hence very counter-intuitive, mitigation (the main purpose for a tank) is mostly passive, and the only active part of the role (threat generation) has mainly been resolved by either out-gearing the DPS, forcing them to sit on their hand and not perform their role, or sacrificing mitigation which is again extremely unintuitive for someone new trying to wrap their head around the concept and perform to majority expectations.

This kind of reminds me of the initial resistance to removing defence from the game... it was another one of those bullshit mechanics whose real purpose (mitigating crits / crushing blows) was never documented in-game in any way, relying on word-of-mouth to give potential tanks the first idea about how to properly itemise, and a major factor in perpetuating the myth that tanks were somehow 'elite players' because they possessed secret knowledge of wow's inner workings.

killerseven
08-18-2011, 12:27 AM
i have been blood tanking for a year now and i like tanking, its not that much of a problem in reg groups but in heroics with the healer and dps have much better gear than i do, even thogh i use a good rotation, i cant keep aggro, at least not all the time, ive learnt to deal with it and buffs to tanking just can take away the challange of tanking, so what if the bad tanks complain, i want to keep the challange and learn from it, i dont give a damn about the winey little crapy tanks and their rotations, i want to learn how to tank better, and the bad tanks should learn from it too insead of NERD RAGING.

Airowird
08-18-2011, 12:57 AM
I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!It's not a buff, it's a simplification. They specificly said the intent was that they don't want you to care about threat anymore, NOT that it would be easier to get. Basicly once a tank hits it, it should stick to it.
Imho it takes away one of those multi-tasking challenges I liked about tanking and that makes me angry, as they are removing one of the few challenges left in the game I still enjoy(ed).

Also, Defense was an extra gearing stat, albeit not optimally suited, they should've only removed the crit portion. By removing it completely they went to a 3-stat focus for tanks, making it rather simple.

Tengenstein
08-18-2011, 01:15 AM
I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!

Seriously, tanking is a role that historically has had far too many barriers to entry; its a complete reversal of the DPS role (dont care about damage, encourage mobs to hit you, wtf?) and hence very counter-intuitive, mitigation (the main purpose for a tank) is mostly passive, and the only active part of the role (threat generation) has mainly been resolved by either out-gearing the DPS, forcing them to sit on their hand and not perform their role, or sacrificing mitigation which is again extremely unintuitive for someone new trying to wrap their head around the concept and perform to majority expectations.

This kind of reminds me of the initial resistance to removing defence from the game... it was another one of those bullshit mechanics whose real purpose (mitigating crits / crushing blows) was never documented in-game in any way, relying on word-of-mouth to give potential tanks the first idea about how to properly itemise, and a major factor in perpetuating the myth that tanks were somehow 'elite players' because they possessed secret knowledge of wow's inner workings.

Sorry but no, Vengeance sorted it out. i have a 346 geared pally tank and it is easier for her to hold aggro in 5 mans than it is for my 378 geared warrior, she takes more damage and her vengeance stacks faster and higher.;She actually rocks with more AP on average. P1 of Venoxis the warrior is struggling to pull 5k dps becuase she's rage starved and vengeance starved the pally can easily pull 8 becuase she's actually tanking damage. The pally can Gear straight mitigation becuase at her gear level, which is appropriate for a troll heroic she get enough vengeance, the warrior whose nearly 2 tier above need to swap in some threat stats. this generally called Gearing for the Encounter and isn't exactly a new development for tanking.

stop pretending that having a moderatly low gear level stops you tanking, you can tank normal HCs fine with 329 ilvl gear, you can tank ZA fine with 346 gear, the caveat is that you learn how to tank, which isn't hard.

There's no sense of achievement now. We're bringing guns to knife fights.

Edit: gearing up tanks are gearing for full mitigation in 353/359 levels and failing to keep aggro becuase their Gearing for the type damage you get in T11hc/T12 content, and becuase 5mans don't ahve that kind of damage they're having trouble keeping aggro, and apparently this means that all tanks threat needs buffing, the situation strieks me as being similiar to A DPS running with 6% hit, and then being suprised when there abilities miss against a raid boss

Kemanorel
08-18-2011, 01:18 AM
stop pretending that having a moderatly low gear level stops you tanking, you can tank normal HCs fine with 329 ilvl gear, you can tank ZA fine with 346 gear, the caveat is that you learn how to tank, which isn't hard..

I don't know if this is anecdotal, but I had no issue tanking Zul'Gruub at 346 ilvl, under call to arms satchel conditions (solo LFG queue as the tank)

Apop
08-18-2011, 04:36 AM
I like this change, just it's a real pity we get to have spectator mode as darksend put it until they deign to change the rest of our mechanics.

leethaxor
08-18-2011, 07:32 AM
From a dps'ing PoV I like this change, I don't have to invis 30 seconds after the pull as an arcane mage any more.

Cartavius
08-18-2011, 07:48 AM
I really dont understand what everyone is up in arms about. I bet if they had actually put these changes in a week before they had announced them then no one would have noticed a difference. Threat hasnt been an issue against dps for a very long time in raids. The only time I ever noticed any bit of difficulty was during certain tank swap fights but even then my other tank and I would just communicate to slow dps and let the other catch up. So this whole idea some people have that the removal of threat as a mechanic is just dumbing down the game is ridiculous. And since the threat mechanic has in reality been such a non-issue for the last three years I also dont understand how some can say that it was something they really enjoyed or something that set a good tank apart.

People were up in arms all over this before they even set foot in an instance or a raid. And really fellow tanks, if this dumbs the game for you, your healers, and your dps as much as you claim it will then I will expect each of you to be posting here in the next couple of weeks with the Firelord title in front of your name. The game is still extremely difficult at the proper levels and if you find that the removal of the threat mechanic simplifies the game for you so much then find a raid that is worthy of your skill.

I apologize for sounding abrasive but I get so very frustrated with many in the community who seem like their sole purpose is to be critical of every single change blizzard makes and claim that its something they do for noobs only and will make the game too easy and boring for the "real" players. The reality though is that the game is just as fun and just as if not more challenging than it ever has been. Furthermore everyone is concentrating on the buff to threat and almost completely ignoring the bigger more exciting news...

The introduction of active mitigation to tanking.

This is perhaps the most ground breaking change to the tank role the game has ever seen and it makes complete sense. How much did Blizz tell us they wanted dps in Cata to feel more powerful. They changed the dps model away from strict rigid rotations to more progressive reactive ones, as well as cut down the amount of damage from auto attacks and made your abilities give a feeling of more power. They changed the healing model to reward efficiency, mana management, and spell usage. Tank reconstruction was naturally next. They discussed they love the idea of how DKs have more of an active role in their survival and work harder than any other tank class for it. And though there are changes that need to be made to DKs (which he also said in a later post would be happening perhaps as soon as 4.3) the idea behind tanks being more active in their survival and mitigation instead of throwing on gear and having it just be passive and something you dont work for is maybe the most exciting news I've ever heard for our role. If you really want to separate a good tank from another they are going to give us the best way to do it.

As a community lets try to be less critical of things and more positive about what's ahead. I encourage change in the game as it keeps thongs fresh.

Reev
08-18-2011, 07:50 AM
I really dont understand what everyone is up in arms about. I bet if they had actually put these changes in a week before they had announced them then no one would have noticed a difference. Threat hasnt been an issue against dps for a very long time in raids. The only time I ever noticed any bit of difficulty was during certain tank swap fights but even then my other tank and I would just communicate to slow dps and let the other catch up. So this whole idea some people have that the removal of threat as a mechanic is just running down the game is ridiculous. And since the threat mechanic has in reality been such a non-issue for the last three years I also dont understand how some can say that it was something they really enjoyed or something that set a good tank apart. People were up in arms all over this before they even set foot in an instance or a raid. And really fellow tanks, if this dumbs the game for you, your healers, and your dps as much as you claim it will then I will expect each of you to be posting here in the next couple of weeks with the Firelord title in front of your name. The game is still extremely difficult at the proper levels and if you find that the removal of the threat mechanic simplifies the game for you so much then find a raid that is worthy of your skill. I apologize for sounding abrasive but I get so very frustrated with many in the community who seem like their sole purpose is to be critical of every single change blizzard makes and claim that its something they do for noobs only and will make the game too easy and boring for the "real" players. The reality though is that the game is just as fun and just as if not more challenging than it ever has been. Furthermore everyone is concentrating on the buff to threat and almost completely ignoring the bigger more exciting news... The introduction of active mitigation to tanking. This is perhaps the most ground breaking change to the tank role the game has ever seen and it makes complete sense. How much did Blizz tell us they wanted dps in Cata to feel more powerful. They changed the dps model away from strict rigid rotations to more progressive reactive ones, as well as cut down the amount of damage from auto attacks and made your abilities give a feeling of more power. They changed the healing model to reward efficiency, mana management, and spell usage. Tank reconstruction was naturally next. They discussed they love the idea of how DKs have more of an active role in their survival and work harder than any other tank class for it. And though there are changes that need to be made to DKs (which he also said in a later post would be happening perhaps as soon as 4.3) the idea behind tanks being more active in their survival and mitigation instead of throwing on gear and having it just be passive and something you dont work for is maybe the most exciting news I've heard for us ever. If you really want to separate a good tank from another they are going to give us the best way to do it. As a community lets try to be less critical of things and more positive about what's ahead. I encourage change in the game as it keeps thongs fresh.

I would try to read this, but it'd be like a cat trying to digest a brick.

Try some paragraphing and formatting.

ananoon
08-18-2011, 08:37 AM
I completely agree with the OP. Threat has only been an annoyance for tanks in raids on pull--definitely not something that distinguishes a good raiding tank from another.

The promised active mitigation changes are what I'm really looking forward to. Maybe I'll start playing classes other than my DK for tanking when that happens.

Spiritus
08-18-2011, 08:46 AM
As a community lets try to be less critical of things and more positive about what's ahead. I encourage change in the game as it keeps thongs fresh.
Yeah, to place an addendum on my BLARGH post, I am happy to see "Long Term Plans" incorporate an active tanking model. However, as much as I hate to be "that guy," how many "long term plans" have never happened? How many times have the developers introduced drastically new mechanics mid expansion cross role?

I honestly don't see the two as directly connected. Making threat a bygone conclusion [I]now and maybe, possibly an active tanking model Soon(tm) doesn't sit well. If they are so hand-in-hand, why hotfix ubervengance? It's like, hey, we want you to taste this mac n' cheese, but first, just eat the cheese. Now eat it for a while and let us know what you think. At some point we're gonna add in some macaroni as well.

I've really only been super negative about two "changes" in the past 7 years playing this game. The fiasco with PW:S in 4.0.x & this. Change doesn't bother me. Really, really odd moves that don't jive right do.

feralminded
08-18-2011, 10:22 AM
A guy I play with observed that this is just candy coating around the simple truth: Heroic tanking is screwed up when theres major gear disparities and heroic domo has threat issues. 2 birds, 1 stone and a pile of promises that we won't see until next expansion if at all.

Tengenstein
08-18-2011, 10:39 AM
Yeah, to place an addendum on my BLARGH post, I am happy to see "Long Term Plans" incorporate an active tanking model. However, as much as I hate to be "that guy," how many "long term plans" have never happened? How many times have the developers introduced drastically new mechanics mid expansion cross role?

I'll be that guy, Active defenses with out threat mechanics sounds fun. not having active defenses and no threat mechanic IS boring. Once that change is made this change makes sense, unti then it doesn't.



I honestly don't see the two as directly connected. Making threat a bygone conclusion [I]now and maybe, possibly an active tanking model Soon(tm) doesn't sit well. If they are so hand-in-hand, why hotfix ubervengance? It's like, hey, we want you to taste this mac n' cheese, but first, just eat the cheese. Now eat it for a while and let us know what you think. At some point we're gonna add in some macaroni as well.


Indeed, i mean Wath prot pallies had to keep Holy shield, Divine Plea and occasionally sacred shield up while maintianing threat. The two don't have to be either or, they can be interlaced and that would for fun game play. where does anyof that mean we need to make threat a bygone conclusion? it doesn't.

Theotherone
08-18-2011, 11:55 AM
But won't the non overgeared tank be running at High vengeance, whereas the over geared raid tank will have trouble stacking it.

I don't understand why this would be.

Tengenstein
08-18-2011, 12:14 PM
Becuase Vengenace is proportional to Incoming DPS, if a tank has less armour, less avoidance, less mastery they tend to take MORE damage.

feralminded
08-18-2011, 12:20 PM
Becuase Vengenace is proportional to Incoming DPS, if a tank has less armour, less avoidance, less mastery they tend to take MORE damage.I can't speak for all overgeared tanks but when I run a heroic (pretty rare these days) I do it in my Alysrazor gear ... which has a pile of expertise, some hit, and even some crit while still having better mitigation than them. My mainhand does almost 40% more raw DPS and I reckon I have hundreds more points of strength just from the passive strength on my gear. There's no way they can keep up.

Tengenstein
08-18-2011, 12:25 PM
Why would an undergeared tank be competeing with you're over geared tank for threat in a 5 man? why would there be two tanks?

feralminded
08-18-2011, 01:02 PM
Why would an undergeared tank be competeing with you're over geared tank for threat in a 5 man? why would there be two tanks? What in the world are you talking about? Because I'm talking about why it's way easier for me to tank a 5 man in my 375 raid gear than my buddy who's in 355 heroic gear. Hell before the patch I avoided tanking on my feral druid specifically for this reason (the few times I did it was a nightmare) ... now I'll probably get back at it because I won't have to worry about it so much.

Tengenstein
08-18-2011, 02:20 PM
You quoted me talking about Less well geared tanks and ended your statment with "there's no chance they can keep up"

Pruke
08-19-2011, 03:30 AM
I had not played since this hotfix went in. Last night all we had left to do in Firelands was Ragnaros. I actually forgot about the threat changes, being a tank the first pull, look at omen and think... wow... Then it dawns on me, threat was changed. Kinda silly, I really am for the changes but man when I look at omen and the number 2 person in threat is so far behind me it isn't even funny. I guess I can just remove omen all together now.

Grix
08-19-2011, 12:59 PM
Welcome back classic shield block?

Reev
08-19-2011, 01:02 PM
I wonder if they'll do the same for warlock and hunter pets now.

And yeah, I guess it's time to drop Omen. I've barely looked at it since I stopped tanking anyway.

Mazar
08-19-2011, 04:01 PM
What about threat sets? I imagine it being useful for situations like the Alysraszor birds, but I suppose we can leave that idea.

Gneecapper
08-19-2011, 05:41 PM
"How much did Blizz tell us they wanted dps in Cata to feel more powerful. They changed the dps model away from strict rigid rotations to more progressive reactive ones, as well as cut down the amount of damage from auto attacks and made your abilities give a feeling of more power. "

Blizzard also said they wanted threat to be a real consideration again which is why they removed flat threat bonuses from most abilities so it'd be more closely related to tank DPS as well. They also said they wanted a way from keeping tanks from falling behind DPS and introduced Vengence as the menchanic they could "easily adjust" as needed to compensate for when DPS started to pull ahead. Rather than adjusting the numbers they simply just through all of threat out the window.

Now w/ that said I do miss when threat was actually an issue. I set myself apart as a tank in BC when it was just that, a great tank would average about 1-2k TPS tops and every other tank was throttling DPS hindering the fight. This was fun for me as word gets out that DPS didn't have to throttle at all or not as much and suddenly I'm a very sought after tank, all the while having the sense of accomplishment and inflated ego knowing that I was better than most. This allowed me to get into a guild that would eventually clear all of T6 which not too many guilds did before all the nerfs.

And in terms of "exciting" proc based dps or something along those lines... thats a bunch of hogwash its a rotation w/ maybe 1 ability thrown in as a proc for nearly every class. Demon locks, immolate, hand of guldan on cooldown to keep immolate up, refresh dots as needed then shadow bolt until you get an incinerate proc... not rocket science, better than a set constant rotation but thats still long from what I'd call active and engaging.

On to Fury warrior, BT, CB, RB, use slam if it procs. Almost identical to a lock but even easier to do good dps because now I don't have to watch DOT timers.

I do like the idea of worrying less about threat and more about mitigation. Whats funny is they had something similar w/ Shield Block in the day where you had to keep it up 100% or DIE!! They got rid of that, I mean I macroed it to everything so it went up passively but still... "active" lol.

I don't know how DK tanks work but Blizzard and many players talk like this is the holy grail of excitement for tanking, the DK's I talk to about it dont sound too enthused or state it requires a ton of active play and thought in all honesty.

They have dumbed down tanking, my favorite fight to this day is Illidari council you had to avoid death on the ground, from the sky, keep shield block up 24/7, spell reflect 1 spell but eat another and we didn't have big cooldowns except every 10minutes max so room for error was little to none add on to that nearly every boss at that time being untauntable.

Is there anything in game that is like that now? I haven't seen it for the most part tanking is "pick up add for dps to kill, dont stand in this shit, take hits here, win"

Gneecapper
08-19-2011, 05:43 PM
What about threat sets? I imagine it being useful for situations like the Alysraszor birds, but I suppose we can leave that idea.

"Threat sets for Alyzrazor birds" isn't adding hit and expertise for threat its adding for the dmg they aren't increasing our damage by 2/5's just threat so they will still be viable but wearing full avoidance gear I always down my bird so that isnt even an issue.

I honestly enjoyed tank gearing more too when I did have to have threat stats on my gear and balance them appropriately w/ my mitigation / avoidance stats so as not to throttle DPS but at the same time stay alive.

Gneecapper
08-19-2011, 05:49 PM
What in the world are you talking about? Because I'm talking about why it's way easier for me to tank a 5 man in my 375 raid gear than my buddy who's in 355 heroic gear. Hell before the patch I avoided tanking on my feral druid specifically for this reason (the few times I did it was a nightmare) ... now I'll probably get back at it because I won't have to worry about it so much.

I found my threat was higher and tanking was easier when I had less gear. I took more damage and inturn had more rage and higher vengence. Now my vengence rarely stacks above 12k AP and my rage bar moves ever so slowly. To counter act this I just tank like 5 mobs at a time.

Chamenas
08-19-2011, 07:24 PM
so.... the only hard role will be healing....

panda/epic/carebears for everyone.

? Healing is hard?

The game is as hard as you make it to be. There's a select amount of content that only a small percentage of the population does, the rest of the population finds it too difficult. There will, generally speaking, always be something more challenging for people to do for anyone outside that small elite population. No matter the role, there's plenty of challenge.

swelt
08-20-2011, 01:33 AM
Given that this is the Theory section of the forum, would it be worth taking a look at the impact that this change has (if any) on rotations/gearing/etc? I'm thinking the following:
- high threat but low damage moves might as well drop from rotations. For warriors, that's probably another nail in the coffin of revenge, and concussion blow is probably not going to beat devastate on average.
- 'Threat' talents now have to make up their worth as 'dps' talents - which makes them a lot more like a luxury. You could imagine a pure utility warrior build that ignores all the damage talents: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LMbZhb0oZcrGdRoRdMu - I'm not saying this is necessarily a smart idea, but if threat is a non-issue then there's certainly an argument to say "don't try to be a poor mans dps, get more utility". In a 10 man group, I'm going to guess that the tanks dps makes up a non-trivial percentage of total RDPS, but in a 25 man group...?
- when the fast vengeance stacking comes up, I guess that has some fairly significant implications for feral druids. I also assume it means that abilities like shockwave that scale very well with raw AP will be stronger much earlier in the fight.

Mazar
08-20-2011, 07:16 AM
"Threat sets for Alyzrazor birds" isn't adding hit and expertise for threat its adding for the dmg they aren't increasing our damage by 2/5's just threat so they will still be viable but wearing full avoidance gear I always down my bird so that isnt even an issue.

I honestly enjoyed tank gearing more too when I did have to have threat stats on my gear and balance them appropriately w/ my mitigation / avoidance stats so as not to throttle DPS but at the same time stay alive.

I mean hit and expertise to not waste skills, so we do full damage. I know they didn't buff damage, my concern was about those tanks that usually go with almost no hit/expertise. I found really difficult to do the required damage to the birds in my usual set (gemmed/reforged full mastery) as a prot warrior.

PimpJuice4
08-20-2011, 09:25 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Beefius http://www.tankspot.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?p=522553#post522553)I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!

wow players will complain about anything

Spiritus
08-20-2011, 09:50 AM
Given that this is the Theory section of the forum, would it be worth taking a look at the impact that this change has (if any) on rotations/gearing/etc? I'm thinking the following:
- high threat but low damage moves might as well drop from rotations. For warriors, that's probably another nail in the coffin of revenge, and concussion blow is probably not going to beat devastate on average.
- 'Threat' talents now have to make up their worth as 'dps' talents - which makes them a lot more like a luxury. You could imagine a pure utility warrior build that ignores all the damage talents: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LMbZhb0oZcrGdRoRdMu - I'm not saying this is necessarily a smart idea, but if threat is a non-issue then there's certainly an argument to say "don't try to be a poor mans dps, get more utility". In a 10 man group, I'm going to guess that the tanks dps makes up a non-trivial percentage of total RDPS, but in a 25 man group...?
- when the fast vengeance stacking comes up, I guess that has some fairly significant implications for feral druids. I also assume it means that abilities like shockwave that scale very well with raw AP will be stronger much earlier in the fight.

As much as I was a contributing factor, this thread has been somewhat out of place in "T&M." Lets try to keep things, in this thread at least, more locked into the objective impact uber-vengeance brings to the table, rather than the subjective.

Airowird
08-20-2011, 11:30 AM
Well it's a flat bonus, so it does nothing for our DPS/TPS maxing rotations we had before. As for Revenge & Conc blow needs ... we could've done without Rev before, if anything, I'ld put the points from Imp. Rev in Battle Trance (if you don't need Gag Order), as it's also a rage efficiency talent, which was the biggest use of Imp. Rev. Conc Blow still isn't a bad move and as it's still required for Vengeance, you'll prob end up taking it, so might as well try and use it.
I'ld also assume you'ld want glyphs with that spec swelt, perhaps something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LMbZhb0oZcrGdRoRdMu:o0mmkazMk)?

On the initial Vengeance: if it's a 2s duration, wouldn't it be better to Dev first before the initial SS? you'ld get way more dmg out of it both from the frist swing (and perhaps even another swing, extra AP!) as well as the armor reduction. I'ld expect a Heroic Throw + Charge pull would patch over the initial Devastate, good enough to start hitting that SS like a boss.

swelt
08-20-2011, 04:50 PM
To clarify, my first point was that there's no point in having a 'max tps' rotation any more, only a 'max dps' rotation. From there, I guess I'm looking to evaluate the relative DPS values of the assorted DPS talents: incite, war academy, heavy repurcussions, cruelty, deep wounds, etc. If we assume that none of them are strictly required for the purposes of holding threat (which I think is probably true) then we will need to make decisions about whether want to take them for the purpose of increasing our raid dps contribution or whether we could get more value from a utility talent. The build I linked goes to the extreme other end of the scale - I can't think of much use for Blitz in current content, nor can I see myself going for Impending Victory any time soon, but rather I wanted to illustrate that if you stop caring at all about your dps then 'standard builds' could shift.

I ran some (possibly flawed) numbers through your latest spreadsheet, with the default rotation. I started with all the 'dps talents' filled in on the sheet, then took away one at a time, noting the loss in dps. It gave me roughly the following:

Incite ~8-9% dps for 3 points
HTL ~6-7% dps for 2 talent points (ignoring value of mitigation)
Thunderstruck ~1-2% dps for 2 talent points
Sword and Board ~4-5% dps for 3 talent points
War Academy ~2-3% dps for 3 talent points
Deep Wound ~7-9% dps for 3 talent points
Cruelty ~2-3% dps for 2 talent points

I'm not sure how to evaluate heavy repercussions (and there seems to be an error in the sheet, in that the number of HR shield slams aren't included in the DPS summary calc in cell D22) - but it looks like it might be OK and pretty good if you have a two piece T12 bonus? I'm sure you'll be able to get much better qualified numbers than I can - I wouldn't want to draw any conclusions from my ropey maths :P. But to take a case in point: if the value of thunderstruck was 'it helps with snap threat' and the hotfix has meant snap threat is basically guaranteed, then thunderstruck no longer has value unless it also increases my DPS by a worthwhile amount.

Chamenas
08-20-2011, 06:59 PM
Threat has never been why I had fun as a tank. I had fun because well-designed encounters could make it fun. I remember when I first started tanking at the beginning of Wrath. Even though the Naxx encounters weren't particularly difficult, tanking Hiegan was sort of fun. Shuffling adds in the first phase of Kel'thuzad was also awesome.

The problem is that you can't always expect Blizzard to get encounter design "right" for everyone. Some fights have mechanics that I imagine Blizzard thought would be fun, but just aren't particularly interesting. Then again, some fights (Deathbringer?) had mechanics that I had no idea how Blizzard thought it would be interesting.

I thought Vengeance was a neat mechanic, though I didn't really get to play with it since my hiatus began shortly after it was imped. However, it was neat to think that there could be a way for Tanks to have competitive DPS without making it so that everyone would be a tank. Aka, the only person that could benefit from the extra damage bonus was the main focus, if you were specced as a tank but not being attacked by the boss, your DPS would be awful. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if it really worked out that way, and I'm not sure Blizzard even intended it to be that way even though that was why I thought it could be cool.

I've been a personal fan of more active cooldown management for a long long time. Just as healers have to make a decision in what heals to use, tanks should have to make a decision in what defensive modes to use.

If Blizzard has us JUST spamming a shield block, death strike, [other attack here] button to stay alive, it will not be fun. But if they force us to think about which ability to use and constantly rotate through a few different defensive abilities that are not specific cooldowns, depending on the situation of the fight, that would allow tanking to be fun and retain a certain skill level to it. It also wouldn't punish other roles for doing their job correctly, unless, of course, the tank drops because he didn't use the right defensive ability. But that much is true of any other role.

Airowird
08-21-2011, 03:42 AM
Did your SnB number include the SS procs as well?

HR should be on roughly 1/6 Shield Slams if you use SB on the cooldown, thus it's a roughly 16% increase on SS damage.
So it's roughly up to a ~3-4% increase (if SS is 20-25% of total damage). It lacks if you need to use SB on a 45s CD boss attack though.

Thunderstruck is definately the least beneficial talent for single-target, but it's a great AoE tool, for those that still do heroics.
War Academy is required for DW, which is one of the best talents, averaging ~10-11% for those 6 points (or ~5% for 3 points)
Cruelty is pretty meh for a tank, as it's mostly a DPS talent, it's pretty much a dmg filler if you want to hit the second tier.

I'ld probably go for http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LG0cZZIfGdRoodbu:o0mzcqzM0
(http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LG0cZZIfGdRoodbu:o0mzcqzM0)Most likely moving Gag Order to Safeguard once he's raid-ready, maybe Thunderstruck to Cruelty as well.

PS: I believe the Rend error (currently saying to do 20% more damage than it does ingame) is still in the spreadsheet, I'll update it later this week, but feel free to delete the "=1.2*(...)" part in the base damage of Rend in the Abilities tab.

swelt
08-21-2011, 06:05 AM
My SnB number is wrong then. Good, would suck if that wasn't worth keeping.

But in general, I think we agree that cruelty and thunderstruck are pretty lack luster. So let's re-examine the alternatives against current raid content:
- Impending Victory. A sub-20% rotation of just devastate and victory rush would be a minor dps loss but some free healing. There are a few bosses in this tier where the execute phase can get a bit hairy. You'd only get half the value on ragnaros normal mode (although it's quite a long last 10%). Always been disappointing for the lack of healing it gives, but perhaps better than nothing? Wouldn't be surprised if this mechanic got reworked as part of the 'longer term' changes...
- Safeguard. I am not aware of an encounter where safeguard is a perfect fit, but I ran with it for a couple of weeks and did find opportunities to help reduce meaningful damage. Perhaps something in the heroic modes? (Beth'tilac drones fixate?) It'd be interesting to consider whether the increased threat gain makes this more usable in two tank fights. Not much chance of DPS catching up, more of an issue of boss switching targets.
- Gag order. The silence is slightly useful at Alysrazor (although you might use a specific build for that fight anyway). The shortened cooldown is a quality of life thing for me (on trash, heroics). Certainly not a must have.

Airowird
08-21-2011, 06:41 AM
Generally, talents (except ability talents & some rare exceptions) are worth ~2% of 'better job' per point. So overall you'll want talents to compare vs 2% reduction, or dmg increase for each point you put in. That means HtL is actually the slightly better one, Cruelty is not meant for tanks & War Academy is technicly only 'worth it's value' if you also have DW.

Gag Order is definately a QoL thing, although it's still kinda useful for heroics (way more casters there).
Safeguard just puts so many things on a single button, it'll never be a perfect fit (unless on taunt-immune bosses that require a tank swap perhaps. Like that's gonna happen!).
That means that it's basicly it's IV vs Safeguard, or other tanks life vs your own.
In a general note, I'ld say IV would be the most useful, especailly thinking about fights with a sort of end-fight enrage (Cho'Gall, Shannox,...). Although I'ld just love it if we could get the overhealing from VR put into a shield or something. (Perhaps worth a Prime glyph, as we won't be using Rev anymore? Or simply put into IV talent?). Ofcourse, if they made IV to work on a larger boss range (say <35/50% or maybe just all the time, but with a 10s CD?), it would definately become the go-to choice.

Edit: Forgot to ask, did you assume all other talents while testing? Most notably thinking of DW + Cruelty/SnB combo.

swelt
08-21-2011, 07:50 AM
I started out with all the dps talents taken, then looked at the dps reduction when I removed those talents, one by one. I repeated the exercise when I realised that I hadn't enabled the 2xT12 bonus. I fiddled around with a few other combos to try to get confidence. The methodology has flaws, for sure, but I don't think I've massively underrated cruelty or thunderstruck, although as you say the latter will have more impact on AOE dps.

Tengenstein
08-21-2011, 11:34 AM
This little graph (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/Talentcomparison-1.jpg) is something i put together a while back(pre t12x2) for running simcraft. this was with the Maintianing Rend Over SnB priority (except the no BT coloumn which prioritises SnB) Low rage was about 14 rpm, high rage was 17rpm, or approximatley and 80k Holy hit every 2 seconds diffrenence in incoming DPS.

Loganisis
08-21-2011, 12:25 PM
I mean hit and expertise to not waste skills, so we do full damage. I know they didn't buff damage, my concern was about those tanks that usually go with almost no hit/expertise. I found really difficult to do the required damage to the birds in my usual set (gemmed/reforged full mastery) as a prot warrior.

I'd suggest posting in the HALP! section with your build. It's not easy, but it's not difficult, and there are some tricks that can help. (2pc T11 and 2pc T12 will help too).

****

As for the main point.... The bigger question is even post 4.3 - what will talent trees look like in 5.0? Unless they plan the radcial redesign of 3 of the 4 tanks for 4.3, the current impact is just once you have survival, go for whatever has the highest DPS impact.

This change, while I understand the intent, seems to be implimented too early. Right now threat wasn't hard, but it mattered, so if you wanted to be good you did have to pay attention to something, as opposed to just /faceroll buttons which is the case now once you have a basic level of experience.

There's going to be a huge outcry when the redesign comes in as tanks have gotten used to lazy. Great tanks have said tanking has been /faceroll for a long time, but newer tanks are now going to be in this situation too and when the change comes... all I can think of is there's going to be a lot of /getting popcorn responses to all the QQ over how having to use CDs intelligiently is too hard.

JongyFong
09-06-2011, 08:30 AM
So many of our talents are situational in current heroic tier especially with Revenge being broken.

Imp. Revenge, Thunderstruck, and Gag Order - Ryolith/trash pulls (Gag Order is QOL on Alystrazor).
Vigilance and Safeguard - Beth'tilac (Vigilance being more worthless than ever with the threat/vengeance changes).
I can't speak to H. Ragnaros as I've yet to pull it.

That's 9 talent points with little-to-no value, and most other options are basic DPS enhancers.