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Jenkat
08-07-2011, 05:25 AM
I made a new thread as the topic has now gone from fire to arcane.

Thank you soo much again for helping me. Your comment about my downtime on critical mass debuff was very helpful. Check out the kills on these logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zkxmzedlkozvklrz/ (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zkxmzedlkozvklrz/)
I'm happy to report back a considerable improvement. If you have any comments about my performance from these more recent log, I'd be interested in hearing them.

After trying Ragnaros with fire spec last night, I'm convinced to try using my new arcane spec. With fire I could not get the burst dps to take down my add during the intermission phase. I have a question about this and then many questions about arcane in general. Would it be a good idea to glyph into Arcane Barrage to be able to use that instant spell to get my add down fast? Or how do you deal with it? I'd also be intersted to hear any tips for Ragnaros.

Here are my general questions about arcane:
1. I have read that I should try to stay around 90% mana during my conservation phase of my rotation. How can I do that. I find it very hard. For example two stacks keep me anywhere from 80-100% and three stacks keeps me from 70-90%. What would you advise me to do?
2. I would like to hear how you use Presence of Mind? Do you use it situationally or as a part of your rotation?
3. I've read that an arcane mage should use Flame orb as part of their rotation after the burn phase. I'm not exactly sure I understand this. Could you explain this to me?
4. What about AOE in arcane spec? Should I just use blizzard or should i put Ring of Frost down and use Arcane explosion? What do you do?
5. I'm assuming that I should reforge all my crit to mastery? But then I read on this site that crit comes before haste for arcane http://www.noxxic.com/mage/arcane/re...-stat-priority (http://www.noxxic.com/mage/arcane/reforging-and-stat-priority). Is this true?
6. Do you time your burst rotation with internal cds or do you just time it in relation to evocation without regard to internal cds?
7. What about trinkets for acane? Would you advise me to go for the Moonwell Chalice?
8. What about movment. Do you use mana on Arcane Barrage (perhaps even Fire Blast and Ice Lance?) or do you just quickly get to where you are going without casting and resume your rotation? What to you do if you have to move during your burst rotation (for example to detonate a trap on Ragnoros) and your cds are off by the time you get back to normal rotation but you have not burned all your mana? Do you burn the mana down and evocate or do you return to the conservationa rotation. I guess what I'm asking is, is it worth spamming arcane blast with no cds?

mielikinna
08-07-2011, 06:34 AM
1. Use a mix of AB and ABarr when MBarr doesn't proc.
2. I use it when starting a burn phase for the 15% crit buff on 4-stack AB's during arcane power.
3. Flame orb procs Mbarr, and so by using it after a burn/evocate, you can get chain MBarr procs to allow you to get back to full mana.
4. Stack AB and use Arcane Explosion. Arcane explosion receives the same damage buff as AB and does not consume the buff. Recommend speccing into 2/2 Improved Arcane Explosion. You can do 3-4 arcane explosions (based on haste) then cast AB to keep your 4 stack. Also, the threat drop is very useful.
5. The exact stat values are highly gear dependent. I recommend using a program such as http://elitistjerks.com/rawr.php to find out what is optimum for you.
6. Time your burst in relation to cooldowns. I typically find myself starting a burn as mana gem comes off cooldown from my previous burn phase. If your trinkets are on CD or about to be, I might delay a few seconds to try and proc during burn.
7. I would advise you to use rawr, as linked in #5. If you are using two on-use trinkets, the moonwell chalice does not play well with them and I would advise against it. Otherwise, use a simulation program to optimize your character.
8. Any DPS > no dps. I use Abarr and Ice Lance as my preferred movement spells. Use the glyph of Arcane Power and blink to help with movement. I would also burn even without CD's. It isn't optimum, but those CD's won't be up again until your next burn phase, and ABx4 is much more dps than conservation, even without CD's.

leethaxor
08-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Here are my general questions about arcane:
1. I have read that I should try to stay around 90% mana during my conservation phase of my rotation. How can I do that. I find it very hard. For example two stacks keep me anywhere from 80-100% and three stacks keeps me from 70-90%. What would you advise me to do?

I find it more about getting a feel for your mana pool size. Practice makes perfect. On a dummy its hard to pratice for your 'rotation' because your missing ALOT of mana that your raid will give you. Just keep glyphed mage armor up, and grind away. Eventually you will get a feel for it. Around your ilvl I believe it was something like 95% try to get 3 AB's around 93% only 2. Generally you want to watch your clear casting procs so you can wipe the stack with an Abarr or steal an extra AB in for free.



2. I would like to hear how you use Presence of Mind? Do you use it situationally or as a part of your rotation?
It depends, most fights that are stand and dps. You just use it on CD, well... 2 casts after Clear cast procs so not to waste stacks of AP (arcane potency). On fights like domo, i normally get the first on CD, then blow the second either as we restack for second scrop or if I have to move. Fights like rag I delay a second use in p1 and p2 so I can solo a add down to 50% health in 1 AB spell cast.



3. I've read that an arcane mage should use Flame orb as part of their rotation after the burn phase. I'm not exactly sure I understand this. Could you explain this to me?

Flame orb on CD its still your highest damage per execute. There really isn't a point to delay it, it will scale with any internal CD's that go off while its up. Just blow it every minute.


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4. What about AOE in arcane spec? Should I just use blizzard or should i put Ring of Frost down and use Arcane explosion? What do you do?

Spam arcane explosion, preferably keep 2 specs, one for more single target damage, one for imp AE. This is what I do, but then my specs change more the a girl changes clothes.



5. I'm assuming that I should reforge all my crit to mastery? But then I read on this site that crit comes before haste for arcane http://www.noxxic.com/mage/arcane/re...-stat-priority (http://www.noxxic.com/mage/arcane/reforging-and-stat-priority). Is this true?

Ehh. Crit starts to be better then haste (only very very slightly like .1 or .15 dps per point) after you reach 1 second AB's at 4 stack under blood lust. Use something like simcraft or rawr to find your real stat weights.



6. Do you time your burst rotation with internal cds or do you just time it in relation to evocation without regard to internal cds?

Waiting for internals will normally just make you wait longer for you next burn phase, a 2 minute cooldown I think you only have ~15/20 second window in which you can blow it and still get your maximum number of uses. Its nice if you can pull it off. But if you gimp for burn cycles your DPS will really suffer.

Normally you delay Arcane power until mana gem comes up, and you have maybe 15 seconds (or more) on evocation, it goes back to practice makes perfect.



7. What about trinkets for acane? Would you advise me to go for the Moonwell Chalice?
Passive int trinkets are in my opinion godly amazing. Moonwell is just amazing, I believe it is 5th BiS after Shard of Woe, H rag trinket, N rag trinket, H twin dragons trinket. You want to use its CD during a conserve phase I believe... I'm still experimenting with it myself, like it was better to burn it with my CD's on h bal, but on H domo it might be better to use it during my conserve phase because of damage buff... Arcane's crazy.



8. What about movment. Do you use mana on Arcane Barrage (perhaps even Fire Blast and Ice Lance?) or do you just quickly get to where you are going without casting and resume your rotation? What to you do if you have to move during your burst rotation (for example to detonate a trap on Ragnoros) and your cds are off by the time you get back to normal rotation but you have not burned all your mana? Do you burn the mana down and evocate or do you return to the conservationa rotation. I guess what I'm asking is, is it worth spamming arcane blast with no cds?
Honestly this is a good question. The short answer is Yes, just keep burning until you reach your 35% mana ish. The long answer is No, if your delaying evocation to long. I've had 'burn phases' last for 90 seconds on ragnaros, then I run in to the issue of waiting for evocation's cooldown to burn again, and wasting a burn phase in the process.


TL;DR Arcane is a 2 button spec, but doing the maximum dps with those 2 buttons is harder then most people think. Just keep practicing it makes ya closer and closer to prefect.

Jenkat
08-09-2011, 03:58 AM
Thanks so much, Leethaxor. This is a lot of information and I will take some time studying it and incorporating it all. =) Thanks to you too Mielikinna. =) I'm sure I will be returning with more question.

I am so happy to report that I did ok with arcane on Ragnaros last night. At first, I did terribly - I kept dying and my dps was around 13k. It was just so hard to do the tacs and do my new rotation. But by the end of the fight I was very stably at 22k and not dying AND getting my add down very easily and helping others on theirs. It was great!!!

Unfortunately, we did not get the logs working last night. But I will post some next time I raid.

Actually I do have a question now. Do you guys use "Tell me when" addon? I want to use it to track Arcane Potency and Incanter's Absorbtion. I got it all set up but it is not working correctly. It seems like a bug to me.

mielikinna
08-09-2011, 06:32 AM
I do not use Tell Me When.
I use NeedtoKnow - you can set up custom bars on there. You could also use PowerAurasClassic if you prefer icons. If it truly is a bug, you might think about contacting the mod creator.

Jenkat
08-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Do you get Incanter's absorbtion to show on NeedtoKnow? It is really the only thing that I truely love about arcane spec so I would just love to see it activated! I never look up at the upper right hand of my screen to the the wow icon there. I can make arcane potency work fine. But it seems to bug out on the internal cds. I guess I will try to contact the mod creater.

leethaxor
08-09-2011, 10:35 PM
You should know when IA procs, mindless using mageward or mana sheild on cooldown is bad.
Using IA is a dps loss (even with mageward), period. The only thing IA does is make shielding yourself not AS much of a dps loss. But death is a far larger Dps loss, I use IA in my domo spec.

I like power aura's alot myself. I use it a decent amount in my UI Linky. My AB stacks are across my toons feet like little combo points (not pictured), but they go right between my mana and HP bars. My keybinds (are/arn't) visable, I don't bind AB to everything that was a joke for our kill video.

Use a boss mod to keep track of when to burn and when not to, that's fairly important like you don't want to blow all your cooldowns then molten seed in 2 seconds and you just run with your raid group raging under your breath.

I use need to know for internal cooldowns namely lightweave and power torrent. Great GREAT! addon

Also icehud, I don't see how you can play arcane with out it, but that's just me. Frankly I can't see how you can play wow without it :P

Jenkat
08-13-2011, 07:43 AM
Thanks Mielikinna - I use NeedtoKnow now and it is much better for me. =)

Thanks again, Leethaxor again for sharing all of your knowledge and experience. I'm really learning a lot. I love IA and use it only with mage ward when I know that I will take dmg like dentonating the traps in Ragnaros.

I'd be interested in hearing more about how your experimentation with the Moonwell Chalice is going. Do you still use it differently depending on the fight? Can you explain in detail what you mean when you write: better to burn it with my CD's on h bal, but on H domo it might be better to use it during my conserve phase because of damage buff... I'm not sure I understand why you use this trinket with your other cds on Bal but not on Domo - what is the damage buff with Domo and why does that make a difference?

I have never heard of Icehud. I will check that out. Thanks again.

Love your UI! =)

leethaxor
08-13-2011, 08:33 AM
I'd be interested in hearing more about how your experimentation with the Moonwell Chalice is going. Do you still use it differently depending on the fight? Can you explain in detail what you mean when you write: better to burn it with my CD's on h bal, but on H domo it might be better to use it during my conserve phase because of damage buff... I'm not sure I understand why you use this trinket with your other cds on Bal but not on Domo - what is the damage buff with Domo and why does that make a difference?

To go a bit more indepth.

You want to you chalice with your other cooldowns (gem, arcane power, etc.) when you are likely to remain at a higher percentage mana for the duration of your burn. I could drop chalice with my cooldowns normally on farm content because our druid (<3 kiff) is giving me intervate when I burn, meaning that I will spend about 2/3 of moonwell's duration at around 90 to 80 percent mana (depending on their reaction, vent lag, etc.) and do VERY large arcane blast crits, it like gaining an extra arcane power almost.

When I'm not getting intervate. I prefer to use it outside of the burn because the bonus from the chalice will decrease as your burn does. You start your burn lets say at 92% mana (prepot), and you pop the chalice your only getting now 1592 mastery from it (due to how arcane's mastery works, less mastery less mana). So as you burn your mana will decrease.

Warning: Math
Provided the decrease (of mana) is linear 'constant' (which it isn't, but if I was to include the integration necessary to model mana loss during a burn phase I would loose people really fast). And you start your burn at 100% mana, and end at 35% doing so in 20 seconds, moonwell chalice goes from 1700 to 595 mastery bonus. So now each execute of the moonwell is only worth ~1147.5 mastery, instead of its full 1700. And at 1147.5 mastery the moonwell is now only going to give you ~191 mastery (on average passively), instead of of ~282. While if you use it during a conserve phase, and float at 95% mana it will give 1615 of its bonus, averaging out to ~270 passive bonus.
So to just look at the 'get the maximum affect from your gear' you most likely want to use chalice during a conserve phase.

mielikinna
08-13-2011, 06:05 PM
Have you also considered how the value of that mastery stacks with Arcane Power's bonus? I tend to stack Moonwell with Arcane Power/Burn due to the additional multiplier on the damage.

leethaxor
08-13-2011, 07:28 PM
Ok so if you burn with it and get a 20% bonus, it will give you about 229.2 passively

With AP - 229
On Conserve - 270

Naturally this just napkin math. the 'real' value maybe higher or lower.

mielikinna
08-13-2011, 10:12 PM
This is also going to change depending on gear level. At my current gear level, after a full duration of Arcane Power burn, I'm still over 50% mana.

If you look at this as a gaussian curve, then you can say that the midpoint value can be used to represent the average value. So if you burn to 30% mana during arcane power's 15 second duration, then look at the the midpoint which would be 65%, that gives you a value of 1105 mastery average value, multiplied by the 20% bonus of arcane power gives 1326. If you only go to 50% mana during the 15 seconds of AP, then you evaluate at 75%, which gives a value of 1530. If you are using this during your conserve phase with an average mana value of 95%, then you are comparing to a value of 1615 mastery.

Now, this is looking at only the values of this trinket and arcane power. Personally, I tend to use my mana gem at the same time as I use Arcane Power, and use this trinket. That extra spellpower then gets increased benefit from this trinket.

The TL: DR version is that if you are stacking more buffs than just arcane power and moonwell chalice, then depending on your gear level it is likely more dps to activate this trinket in time with the activation of the rest of these buffs.

leethaxor
08-13-2011, 11:23 PM
Its more complex then a normal distribution.

For an initial burn, I normally will have AP+Mana gem+pot+power torrent+lightweave then lightweave, torrent, and pot will fall off during the burn returning some mana, increasing chalice's value slightly.

Which means you have three returns. Based on my current character over a 'average initial burn'. I will gain about 8% mana from the potion falling off, then another 5% from the lightweave falling off, and 3% from power torrent falling off.
I originally stated that
Provided the decrease (of mana) is linear 'constant' (which it isn't, but if I was to include the integration necessary to model mana loss during a burn phase I would loose people really fast). You would have to model a line that is decreasing from 100% to 35% or when ever you evocate, then take into account int procs that would end buffing your %mana, and increasing the trinkets value to find your real 'average' mana during a burn then that would be your real mastery bonus.

Now on top of that you would need to demonstrate that the 'burn phase' chalice is going to give you 16% more on average bonus then the conserve chalice.

Also the stat values of crit and haste (under softcap) are greatly inflated by arcane power (and mana gem) while mastery is almost completely worthless during a burn.

Bigbad
08-14-2011, 05:32 AM
Wouldn't you do about dubbel the amount of dps in burn compared to conservative and have more then 50% mana on average? Just trying to keep it simple cause if you want to do it accurate its quite complicated. Depends alot on gearlevel I guess and T12 4set would have a significant impact as well.

leethaxor
08-14-2011, 10:20 AM
Wouldn't you do about dubbel the amount of dps in burn compared to conservative and have more then 50% mana on average? Just trying to keep it simple cause if you want to do it accurate its quite complicated. Depends alot on gearlevel I guess and T12 4set would have a significant impact as well.

To keep it simple, no. Chalice isn't a 100% damage bonus.

Bigbad
08-14-2011, 02:03 PM
To keep it simple, no. Chalice isn't a 100% damage bonus.

Thats not what i said. I was thinking 40k dps in a burn phase and 20k dps in conservative and you keep average of 50%+ mana while chalice is up during a burnphase.

leethaxor
08-14-2011, 02:24 PM
Thats not what i said. I was thinking 40k dps in a burn phase and 20k dps in conservative and you keep average of 50%+ mana while chalice is up during a burnphase.
Your totally losing me.

But I think your trying to say that you are going to try to be at and average mana of 50% for your burn phase. But your average mana will be higher then that already (for the figures I used). Because for a 'normal' burn you go from 100% to 35%, which averages to 67.5%, to get a 50% average you would have to burn to 0% mana.

And if you are talking about stopping burning to conserve mana during your 'burn' phase then that's completely off base. Burn phase is about maxing your dps, and trying to stop going below X value of mana during a 'burn' means your just gimping your burn and gimping your average dps by lowering your burn dps.

Bigbad
08-15-2011, 01:27 AM
Chalice proc is just a modifier on your dps depending on the manalevel you have. So if you have your dps in both phases and the average manalevel in both phases you can determine in which phase its best to use chalice. It has nothing to do with how you perform those phases. This a bit more clear?

In short we do more then dubbel the dps in a burnphase while keeping higher then 50% mana on average(your 67,5% sounds about right) so its best to use chalice during a burnphase. But my mage is just an alt so correct me if im wrong here.

leethaxor
08-15-2011, 09:41 AM
When I use chalice with my CD's my burn peaks at around 74k to 76k dps (that's without receiving an external). Then I evocate and hit about 22k for my conserve.

When I don't use chalice in my burn I peak at around 70 to 73k dps. Then when I pop chalice after my burn I float at 35k for about 20 seconds before falling by to normall 22k

Chalice gives me a small (but albeit) noticeable increase to my dps during my burn, but using it post burn gives a MASSIVE damage bonus to your conserve phase.

Bigbad
08-15-2011, 03:12 PM
1700 mastery rating=9,5 mastery=upto 14,25% extra damage done. That will in no way increase your dps from 22k to 35k thats just bullshit. 22*1,1425=25,135 and that's not even correctly calculated since the mastery proc is additive with already existing mastery and not multiplicative so the actual number is slightly lower depending on the amount of mastery you already have.

leethaxor
08-15-2011, 03:35 PM
during the proc I burn mana a little more to help boost the affect of it, for example going AB5 or 6 with my larger mana pool I can easily recover when it falls off.

Bigbad
08-15-2011, 04:14 PM
So to increase the effect of the trinket you do like a small miniburn with a few AB5-6s but you don't want to use it during an actual burnphase where you can stack it with other cds like AP and managem. Doesn't sound logical to me.

Lets assume the trinket use is a 10% damage buff nice round number.
70k dps burn (assume 67% efficiency on the trinket cause of the manalevel) + 4,7k from the trinket
32k dps during small miniburn (assume 100% efficiency which is a bit too optimistic) +3,2k from the trinket
but now you also loose some dps recovering your mana again

It just doesn't add up for me.

Jenkat
08-16-2011, 10:44 AM
This moonwell chalice debate is very fascinating. For the time being I'm going to try using it for my conserve phase. That seems to make most sense to me. I'm not so good at math and such so it is difficult for me to follow your in depth discussion.

I have another question, however: How do you use clearcasting? To me, it makes most sense to always use it to get an extra AB in. But do you guys ever use it for a free Abarr to wipe your stacks? And if so, why?

Also I'm curious about Arcane Potency. It would seem best to do AB when you get that. But is it more important to keep the 4xAB and clear with AM or ABrr rotation. Cause I tried doing a AB everytime I had Arcane Potency up and it messed up the AB stacks and depleted my mana. Tell me please, how you understand Arcane Potency in relation to your rotation.

Jenkat
08-17-2011, 07:59 AM
Here is the combat log of one of our tries on Ragnaros last night. We ended up downing him for the very first time - but I do not have a log of that. I'd be very interested in hearing any constructive criticism that you may have. I found myself mostly focusing on the tactics and not so much on my rotation. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6v7gh8aabg8lm7so/analyze/dd/source/?s=1322&e=1974

And here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/boulderfist/Jenkat/advanced
I'd also love to hear on that as well.

Thanks again for the help guys! =)

leethaxor
08-17-2011, 08:51 AM
On longer fights you can end your burn about 10% higher mana and remake your mana gem. I don't know if the missed gem was on purpose but I just saw the 4 burn phases and 3 gem uses.

Jenkat
08-18-2011, 08:26 AM
I did not think about remaking the mana gem. So thanks for that tip! <3 I really appreciate you taking the time to look at that log. =)

I did burst at the beginning, during both transition phases for fear of not getting my add down quick enough and towards the end of the encounter. Do you think that these are good times or do you do Ragnaros differently?

Do you have any comments to these questions mentioned above: How do you react to clearcasting? To me, it makes most sense to always use it to get an extra AB in. But do you guys ever use it for a free Abarr to wipe your stacks? And if so, why?

Also I'm curious about Arcane Potency. It would seem best to do AB when you get that. But is it more important to keep the 4xAB and clear with AM or ABrr rotation. Cause I tried doing a AB everytime I had Arcane Potency up and it messed up the AB stacks and depleted my mana. Tell me please, how you understand Arcane Potency in relation to your rotation. Should I just be ignoring Arcane Potency and do my normal rotation 4xAB-AM?

leethaxor
08-18-2011, 01:12 PM
Typically how I use CD's for rag, just for a reference.

I burn initial, if group dps is low (form some odd reason), I will burn again as the phase ends and evocate as the adds spawn.

You can then (if spec'd nethervortex) arcane blast into a PoM AB and that gets you close to 50% and slowed, then you can mop up the adds a little bit. Burning in the transition is a decent dps loss because you are switching targets moving around a lot.

Burn as p2 starts, burn before the first seed, and you can normally evocate as the first seeds explode which helps a little with healing, and gets your mana back for AE spam as the adds cluster up on your group.

Again if p2 dps is slow then you can burn again but the best time to burn will at the p2.5 transition when most guilds pop heroism to kill adds and or rag.

Jenkat
08-19-2011, 08:25 AM
This is very very helpful. Thanks! I will try it this way on Monday. =)

leethaxor
08-21-2011, 02:41 PM
I didn't mention but when you remake your mana gem the best time to do it is as you end your burn, so you can just evocate back up. Also PoM mana gem, really cuts down time.

mielikinna
08-21-2011, 09:51 PM
PoM is better used at the start of a burn for the 15% crit on a ABx4.

leethaxor
08-22-2011, 09:47 AM
PoM is better used at the start of a burn for the 15% crit on a ABx4.

I think PoM would be better used to prevent the 3 second down time of conjuring your mana gem. A single PoM during your burn phase MIGHT be worth 1.5 Arcane Blasts, while PoM'ing mana gem will be worth AT LEAST 2 AB's.

mielikinna
08-22-2011, 02:16 PM
Call it a difference of opinion then.

Also, the number of fights where you need to reconjure your mana gem is Alysrazor if you are arcane and not flying fire (which you should be flying fire) and Ragnaros. In the case of Ragnaros, its just a matter of summoning it when your raid calls DPS off due to timing on seeds in p2, or rather than chasing an add at 20% health that's across the room during a transition.

leethaxor
08-22-2011, 02:27 PM
Also, the number of fights where you need to reconjure your mana gem is Alysrazor if you are arcane and not flying fire (which you should be flying fire) and Ragnaros. In the case of Ragnaros, its just a matter of summoning it when your raid calls DPS off due to timing on seeds in p2, or rather than chasing an add at 20% health that's across the room during a transition.

Agreed. I haven't found many fights that require me to re-conjure other then rag (and lately not as of late since raid dps has gone up) and H domo.

Jenkat
08-25-2011, 11:20 AM
My dps was much better on Raggy doing the burst like you said to, Leethaxor. Thanks a lot! <3
I still enjoy playing fire more. I'm not sure why. But I'm going arcane when asked to by my raid leader. He lets me do fire on our farm material.

leethaxor
08-25-2011, 12:51 PM
Because once you have arcane down you can almost play it with your eyes closed. Its not as easy as it gets a rap for being; Sadly, once you get the hang of it you can just watch a movie on your second monitor for farm content.

The only reason I would suggest you stay arcane for your farm content is just to get in the little and little more practice as arcane. As your rotation gets more and more down pat, you can start working more on movement, mechanic avoidance, etc. Sorta stop paying attention to one thing and focus more attention on other things. Then when you do progress you will able to move better, more aware of timers, and find your dps increasing because of the tiny improvements you made.

Its odd to think that shannox or rhyolith can teach us things to improve us on domo but if you don't open yourself to the experience you can never gain it.

mielikinna
08-25-2011, 10:46 PM
Because once you have arcane down you can almost play it with your eyes closed ... get in ... more practice as arcane. As your rotation gets more and more down pat, you can start working more on movement, mechanic avoidance, etc. Sorta stop paying attention to one thing and focus more attention on other things. Then when you do progress you will able to move better, more aware of timers, and find your dps increasing because of the tiny improvements you made.


QFT

This becomes essential if you are going to do hardmodes.

Jenkat
08-26-2011, 03:21 AM
Hmmm . . . well, I know that my guild will be doing hardmodes after a couple of weeks of farming the normal content. I basically think of myself as good enough to clear the content on normal but not good enough for hardmodes. But they may have to take me along for lack of better players online so I do want to always be improving my game.

And I totally agree with you that practice is very important - so I do want to do that.

My problem with arcane is that I find it both boring and frustrating. For example, I get really frustrated when Hand of Ragnaros (I think that it what is knocking me back) interrupts my evocation. Or when I begin my burst at the wrong time and end of wasting it cause I had to move right after blowing all my cds to dentonate a magma trap. It just seems like the entire rotation is totally dependent on the timing of the encounter and sometimes you can just get unlucky or mess up your timing. I also hate the feeling that I always have to count to four. And I both love and hate the speed buff after blink: It is lovely to move out so fast after Molten Seed - but I lose a bit of control of my char with all that speed and have twice run into Engulfing Flames - making me feel like a total idiot!

Perhaps it is just me misunderstanding the playstyle of arcane. But I find myself tense and miserable while playing arcane and happy while playing fire.

But at the end of the day, I'm a team player and want to do what is best for my guild and our progression. So . . . if you guys have any tips as to how to play arcane better, then I am all ears. I'd love to hear more on how you avoid the frustrating things described above on the Ragnaros encounter. And I guess I will play arcane on our farm content next week.

leethaxor
08-26-2011, 08:06 AM
I'd love to hear more on how you avoid the frustrating things described above on the Ragnaros encounter. And I guess I will play arcane on our farm content next week.

Do you have DBM or bigwigs installed?

That's how. Get a boss timer and watch it. But even more so its experience. Knowing that you delay evocation until after a leaping jump on domo so he won't leap on you during an evocate channel. New bosses are frustrating. Last night I got to spend the last 20 seconds of majordomo oom because I screwed up. Shit happens, and all you can do is learn not to do it next time.

Why I told you to stay arcane is a big part of this. Every time you do the fight you will learn when to, and when not to use cooldowns. And then doing it on heroic when 90% of the fight is the same, you already have that foreknowledge.

Arcane is constant work but constant improvement.

Jenkat
08-26-2011, 03:00 PM
Yes, I do have dbm. I couldn't imagine raiding without it - but I could get better at watching the bar timers. I'll keep working on it. Thanks again for all your help and encouragement, Leethaxor. <3 You're the sweetest!

leethaxor
08-27-2011, 12:21 AM
Its honestly no problem. Honestly, its nice to have somebody to listen to me. I get between 2-3 tells a day just from random people asking for help to improve their mage, guild mage, etc. 90% end up with me being told I'm wrong, and horrible at my class.


@mielikinna
I tested your theory on chalice. And apart from simplifying my cooldown usage, it yielded better dps. So I concede on that opinion.

Jenkat
08-27-2011, 01:31 AM
Oh - well . . . I could just tell that you know what you are talking about. It shines so clearly through everything that you write. And it is commendable that you are so willing to use your knowledge to help others. I'll be posting from time to time here if you do not mind as I run into new problems and have new questions. I hope you keep an eye on this thread. <3

Jenkat
08-27-2011, 01:50 AM
I was just in looking at your logs on Raggy and see that you really do not use Incanter's Absorbsion. I remember you writing that it is a dps loss. I'm going to take my talent points out of that and put them into Improved Arcane Explosion for this fight. But I do want to know: Is there a fight where Incanter's Absorbsion is actually a dps boost or is it always a loss and why?

Also I'm curious about the Lightweave buff that you are getting. Where does that come from.

Ishamaelazure
08-27-2011, 04:12 AM
Lightweave buff comes from tailoring proff and is cloak enchant. Also intrested in the incanters absorb buff use this myself is it not good on rag or in general and if in general where would you recomend moving the points to have pretty much same set up as jenkat

Airowird
08-27-2011, 04:33 AM
I personally don't see the Incanter's Absorption as a DPS loss, but more as a Compensation for doing something non-damagy, similar to Invocation.

That said, if you asked me for a spec without IA I'ld probably go for something like http://www.wowhead.com/talent#ohIMMRhorRRof0bZc which doesn't seem to be much better imho.

leethaxor
08-27-2011, 07:55 AM
I was just in looking at your logs on Raggy and see that you really do not use Incanter's Absorbsion.

We hit rag at about 130 to 2am. I'm tired, annoyed, and most likely running on autopilot. At that point I generally just want the week to be over to I can chill with a sailor (a type of rum far better then captain) and coke and put the night to rest. Also its a dps loss to shield myself, I'll outline below.



Also I'm curious about the Lightweave buff that you are getting. Where does that come from.
Tailoring professional enchant to your cape



I remember you writing that it is a dps loss. I'm going to take my talent points out of that and put them into Improved Arcane Explosion for this fight. But I do want to know: Is there a fight where Incanter's Absorbsion is actually a dps boost or is it always a loss and why?
Casting IA over casting AB is a dps loss. The 2k spell power will only cover about 5 AB's, and even if it adds 2k damage you only get an extra 10k damage out of that. And even a no stack arcane blast hits for more damage then that.

I was running IA just so it wasn't as much as a DPS loss for H beth progression. So I wouldn't die when I had to jump on a web in acid, then get to the top and eat a cinderflare at 5% health or some BS. Its easy to calculate how much dps a corpse does.

Airowind (Do you sleep bro?) is right. IA is a reward for proper shielding; It goes back to my last sentence. Dying is always a Dps loss.

The 4 talents you move around a bit are:
-Imp AE: Good for AoE'ing adds. Most useful on rhyolith, or beth.
-IA: Good for predictable bursts of damage. Beth, Rhyolith, Majordomo, Rag
-Nether vortex: Good for adds that won't be tanked but must be killed. Beth, normal shannox, rag
-Fire power: Solid single target buff to flame orb.

Ishamaelazure
08-27-2011, 11:23 PM
Cool thx for advice guys

mielikinna
08-28-2011, 03:14 PM
I've actually found IA to be a huge DPS boost when used well. Having Mage Armor up for when traps are popped is one thing I do. Be careful using Mana Shield. If you are in a situation where the knockback would be a raid detriment, don't use it. Examples are molten elementals clumping up in P2 Rag and the Heroic Rhyolith encounter in general (knocking obsidians into boss FTL).

Jenkat
08-29-2011, 09:05 AM
I was using IA too on the trap dentonation. =) I'm going to try not using it this week and see if there is a big difference.

I have a question as to elitist jerk's RAWR. I've used it to get my stats in order with gemming and reforging and it all looks ok except that it has me a bit heavy on crit and low on mastery: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/boulderfist/Jenkat/simple. I'm just wondering - is RAWR always right?

mielikinna
08-30-2011, 06:28 AM
The mage model on rawr is probably the most up to date and accurate model. Its not like it has you reforging into crit, its just what your gear has.

Jenkat
08-31-2011, 05:55 AM
Thanks Mielikinna! =)

Here is a log from a miserable night of wiping on Raggy. We had a great first try and then it just went downhill. I think that my dps was better with IA. Also I ended up having to detonate all the traps alone after your Shadowpriest dced which really affected my dps. Do you guys have any tips on how to do this more effectively?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d9w0slelfv8g1od9/

leethaxor
08-31-2011, 02:43 PM
Are you delaying your arcane power + mana gem to use with mirror images?

Jenkat
09-01-2011, 07:20 AM
I put all my cds (except the moonwell chalice) in a macro that I use. Mirror images is in that macro. But I think i can use the macro when mirror images is on cd - the other things can still be activated.

I burst at the beginning of phase one and phase two. We did not make it properly to phase three cause of stupid mistakes and bad connections that night. I only want to use arcane power once in phase 1 and 2 because if I use it late in the phase, then I do not have PoM rdy for the adds. I don't know why, but is seems to get activated together with Arcane Power and then it is not ready for the adds that must be killed quickly.

I also have a question: If I'm bursting and I have to move a bit (due to for example a trap) - should i use Abarr while moving and break my stacks of AB? Or would it be better to just not cast at all while I move away and then resume casting AB? What do you do?

mielikinna
09-01-2011, 07:33 AM
I put all my cds (except the moonwell chalice) in a macro that I use. Mirror images is in that macro. But I think i can use the macro when mirror images is on cd - the other things can still be activated.

I don't know why, but is seems to get activated together with Arcane Power and then it is not ready for the adds that must be killed quickly.

I also have a question: If I'm bursting and I have to move a bit (due to for example a trap) - should i use Abarr while moving and break my stacks of AB? Or would it be better to just not cast at all while I move away and then resume casting AB? What do you do?

If you Glyph Arcane Power, you still get a GCD using an all in one macro for activating your images. It is actually less cooldown time to hit AP then images. And yes, even if one of the abilities is on cooldown, the macro will still activate the rest.

Does your all in one macro have both PoM and AP? You cannot have both up at the same time, but they do not share a cooldown.

For the last question, how long will the target live? The longer after you move that the target lives, the more dps gain it is to wait and resume casting AB. For filler, I recommend Ice Lance so you aren't running doing nothing. If you plan to be moving for long enough for your stacks to drop, I'd use Abarr and Ice Lance.

leethaxor
09-01-2011, 09:09 AM
Here if you have enough time in p1 then you can get off a second burn phase. I just saw mirrors being used with each burn phase and figured that is what was happening.

Jenkat
09-02-2011, 08:55 AM
Thanks for the answers Mielikinna. I will take Mirror Images out of my macro. No PoM is not in the macro - but Arcane Power, Mana Gem and Lifeblood are.

You advice on the moving and casting is very, very helpful. What do you think about using Fire Blast then Ice Lance as the movement spells to not break the AB stacks?

And guess what guys? We ONE-SHOT Raggy last night. I was sooo happy!!! =) Here is the log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-t139ri0bnkcfk0u6/

mielikinna
09-02-2011, 03:05 PM
I prefer ice lance because it doesn't have a cooldown, and when i'm moving I want to be more worried about where I am and where I'm going than about spell CD's. Also, I think the damage is very similar between ice lance and fire blast.

Jenkat
09-03-2011, 04:06 AM
I use this macro for movement casting: /castsequence reset=8 arcane barrage, fire blast, ice lance, ice lance, ice lance, ice lance

But I'm going to take ABarr out of it now after reading what you guys write here. My fire blast is slightly higher dmg than my ice lance so I want to keep using it. With this macro I do not need to be concerned about the cd. I just spam the macro key. But, as I said, I will redo it without Abarr.

Jenkat
09-04-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm back again with another question. I still seem to be working to get my head around playing arcane in cata. I remember in wotlk, that a mage should be out of mana by the end of the fight. Is that true in cata as well?

Also my MageManaBar tells me sometimes that i wasted x amount of mana. What does it mean by that?

mielikinna
09-04-2011, 01:52 PM
Yes, mana = damage. If you are near the end of a fight, just burn your mana.

MageManaBar is likely telling you that because you regenned above 100% mana, so you wasted that mana regen.

Jenkat
09-04-2011, 09:57 PM
Thanks, Mielikinna! =) I really think that this will help me. I was so focused on hovering around 90% mana that I totally got confused. Thanks for sorting me out! <3

Now that we got Raggy down for the second time, we are moving on to hcs. So I'm quite excited about that. We will be doing Shannox on wednesday, so I'm open to any tips that you may have on that encounter.

mielikinna
09-04-2011, 10:41 PM
Not much changes for dps, except that trapping Rageface when his stacks get high and avoiding him for long enough that they drop is key. The rest is on the tanks doing the handoff so that their stacks don't get high. In many ways, it is simpler than having to kill rageface and riplimb.

leethaxor
09-04-2011, 10:56 PM
Shannox heroic?

These few things can make your life amazing.
-Focus cast bar
-Marco that reads /cast [@focus] Arcane Blast
-setting rageface to focus.

Now you can see when he is raging and in one button you can 'normally' break it.

Also due to the fact that arcane breaks rage alot get the glyph of frost armor. And set up a macro to read
/castsequence mage armor, frost armor

then you can toggle armors in one button and still get decent (not totally fail) regen, while not getting your clothy face raped by a dog.

mielikinna
09-05-2011, 06:50 AM
I'm not seeing why you would want glyph of frost armor. This encounter still has a dps check.

leethaxor
09-05-2011, 09:01 AM
I'm not seeing why you would want glyph of frost armor. This encounter still has a dps check.

15% physical damage reduction helps to ensure you remain more healable as the dog gets more and more stacks. It can save your life, but it might not it depends how good your team at the execution of the fight.

I stopped on our third kill as we had the execution down pretty solid.

It also doesn't gimp your rotation as much your losing only about 1% mana regen which isn't horrible. And when your running to a trap its hard to cast.

Jenkat
09-06-2011, 01:23 PM
Thanks for all this great advice on Shannox HC. Now let me see if I understand it all correctly as I will be doing it tommorrow.

When Rageface rages on me, then I switch from mage armor to frost armor (and back again when he no longer targets me)? Is that correctly understood? I was going to use Glyph of blink for running from Rageface - but if I use Glyph of frost armor, then I think I will use Glyph of evocation and Arcane Power as I normally do - leaving no place for the blink glyph. What three major glyphs would you recommend for this fight?

I'm going to make the target macro that you suggested. So do I understand correctly - that I dps the boss until Rageface rages on someone and then i use this macro and then continue dpsing the boss? Is that right?

I'm a bit nervous about kiting Rageface. So if you have any tips on how to do that effectively, I'd love to hear them. =)

leethaxor
09-06-2011, 02:57 PM
The key to shannox heroic:
40 yards from frozen Rageface to anyone
boom Rageface will ALWAYS reset his debuff if this happens. You need to reset his debuff, or he will tear though your clothy robes like an angry tailor who just found out you slept with his wife. Then proceed to 'accidentally' your raid. YES! YOUR WHOLE RAID!
Yes, there is stuff for tanks to do, but that's for tanks. This is what you can control :P


When Rageface rages on me, then I switch from mage armor to frost armor (and back again when he no longer targets me)? Is that correctly understood?
After his facerage is broken, he will target the player who broke it and run at them, and fixate on you for a few seconds. He doesn't hit that hard if you keep reseting his debuff. But frost armor mages it easier on your healers.


I was going to use Glyph of blink for running from Rageface - but if I use Glyph of frost armor, then I think I will use Glyph of evocation and Arcane Power as I normally do - leaving no place for the blink glyph. What three major glyphs would you recommend for this fight?
AP, blink, frost armor (thats what I used). I've found evocation heal to be less and less needed as our healer don't really worry about mana unless we fight beth'tilac.


I'm going to make the target macro that you suggested. So do I understand correctly - that I dps the boss until Rageface rages on someone and then i use this macro and then continue dpsing the boss? Is that right?
Basically, well provided rageface is in range.



So if you have any tips on how to do that effectively, I'd love to hear them. =
-I would really suggest that you turn on dbm timer for warry so you know if you can trap him or not.
-Generally when you 'kite him' you want to make sure you avoid immo traps, and get into the freeze traps.
-Generally you want to nail every other trap, one for the tanks, one for you.
-When you blink you want to blink past the trap, so you are on one side, and he is on the other.
-Rage will always come in a straight line to you. So think of a line from you to him, that's how he will travel. So it allows you to plan his movement.

These sounds like no brainers, but they really help. Once you see he doesn't have warry, and there is a freeze trap between you him you can just stop paying attention to him and go back to dps'ing the boss.

Jenkat
09-06-2011, 11:32 PM
Hi Leethaxor! I'm just so grateful that you bother to take the time to write all this so-called no-brainer stuff. Because it can really make a big difference to an inexperienced raider like me. =) Now I can go the the raid confident tonight and not go all into a panic like I ususally do.

I have a few more questions.
1. So what exactly is this warry?
2. Do you actively make an effort to stay in range of rageface? Or do you let other ppl take care of breaking his facerage if you are not in range?
3. Do you ever use invisibility to get away from rageface?
4. Do you ever use mana shield as well as the frost armor to reduce dmg? Could mana shield keep his stacks down?
5. What about mirror images? Could you use that if you are being ragefaced to reduce dmg?
6. Is there a dbm bar for facerage, so you can make sure you have 4 stacks of AB up to break it?

Ok, tell me if I'm becoming bothersome with too many questions.

mielikinna
09-07-2011, 07:23 AM
Wary is a debuff on Rageface that he gets after he triggers a trap, making him immune to traps for its duration. If he's got wary up, he can't be trapped and you need to position him so he'll be trapped after this drops.
In my group we had 3 mages assigned to breaking facerage and tend to limit the area where our raid should be so its usually not hard to stay in range of him or to blink to it quickly.
Iceblock yes, invisibility, I haven't.
Good question, I'd use it to absorb a bit of damage but I don't know if it effects his stacks.
I believe they can but mine were always on CD.
I do now know about DBM, I use DXE. Facerage happens approximately every 30s though.

In general, if rageface's stacks aren't up, just stand there and take it, he won't hit that hard. If his stacks are up b/c of screwup, know where a trap is ahead of time and be ready to get there fast.

Jenkat
09-07-2011, 08:28 AM
Thanks Mielikinna! Just in time for the raid tonight. I'll let you guys know how it went. I just hope that I do my job ok.

leethaxor
09-07-2011, 12:42 PM
2. Do you actively make an effort to stay in range of rageface? Or do you let other ppl take care of breaking his facerage if you are not in range?
On 10man I don't stick to him like glue. I sorta just try to keep an eye on where he is, or notice him heroic leaping off my screen.


3. Do you ever use invisibility to get away from rageface?
Part of me wants to say I did this once on our progress night, I'm not 100% it will work.


4. Do you ever use mana shield as well as the frost armor to reduce dmg? Could mana shield keep his stacks down?
I've done it when we had real issues reseting him. Not for weeks.


5. What about mirror images? Could you use that if you are being ragefaced to reduce dmg?
When you are being faceraged you lose control of your character like you being CC'd. So you can't use mirror images. When he fixates on you mirrors don't change his target (if I remember correctly).


6. Is there a dbm bar for facerage, so you can make sure you have 4 stacks of AB up to break it?
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4968/wowscrnshot090711153851.jpg

@miel
And DXE is still updated? My buddy was in DX when they dissolved, I thought it wasn't being updated after that.

mielikinna
09-08-2011, 07:59 AM
Yep, DXE is fully updated and maintained now.

Jenkat
09-08-2011, 09:27 AM
Thanks Leethaxor! =)

Guess what? We downed Shannox HC on our first night of trying!!! =)

I even managed to trap Rageface the first time he raged me - I was so proud of myself: I screamed on ventrilo "Yay for me! I did it!". I guess that guys got kind of irritated by that cause they put our hunter on the task of breaking Rageface's facerage and left me on the boss the whole time. Except ofc when the hunter was targeted for facerage then I got to break it and kite Rageface. I did ok on the few times that I had to kite him. Thanks so much for all the advice. I would never have been able to do it without all the help from you guys!!! <3 <3 <3

Here is the log from our night of raiding. I'd love to hear any comments, you may have. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-94kv9kjd5p8rc13r/

I'll be back as soon as I know which HC we will be focusing on next. ;-)

Jenkat
09-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Our raid leader announced that we will be doing Rhyolith as our next Firelands HC boss. So I'm off to see some videos and study tactics. I'll be back when I have some more questions. =) Any tips at all that you have for this encounter would be much appreciated.

mielikinna
09-09-2011, 06:59 AM
Do not use mage armor! The knockback could knock obsidians into Rhyolith, and also could spread the fragments you are AoEing. Use mage ward on CD for the stomps. Dodge lines by a healthy margin as they don't exactly move straight.

leethaxor
09-09-2011, 01:45 PM
You mean mana shield? Mage armor seems pretty handy for it being a core part of our regen :P

mielikinna
09-09-2011, 04:04 PM
LOL, you are correct, mana shield. There are a few officers in my guild who can't get the two straight, and its rubbed off on me. :(

Jenkat
09-14-2011, 07:47 AM
Well, guys - I'm really not sure what to do about my playing. I take all your advice, I study boss tactics like there is no tommorrow, I do everything that I possibly can - and still - I just don't seem to play very well. Even on bosses where I know the fight in and out. I'm posting this log from Ragnaros - a fight that I know very well. Looking at this depressing log, leads me to the question: Are some players just doomed to be mediocre?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1uj042g48h9nncjm/
I really wish that I could understand what makes you guys so awesome and I wish that I could learn to do it too.

leethaxor
09-14-2011, 09:39 AM
Players are not doomed to be bad.

In a raid you often have players who aren't doing everything they can to do their job to the best of their ability. This leads to a phenomena I call "The endless carry." Which is defined as: A situation where every player in the raid is not preforming the their best, they cut corners. One players mistakes, sloppy jobs, corners cut, becomes another players responsibility. Now that player needs to be at 110% of their game to pick up that slack i.e. one player playing at 110% the other at 90%. If they aren't, it leads to issues.

Here is a good example. Last week on normal ragnaros, my guild majorly screwed up our phase 2 transition. Myself, and 2 other people went to the wrong side of the room. We quickly realized we screwed up, and rushed to the opposite side of the hammer. But luckily the 3 players who were facing off against the 6 suns of flame, were able to act correctly and pick up the slack allowing for our Hunter, warrior, and myself to round the hammer and get out stuns and slow (with 2 adds only inches from the hammer).

When you see guilds that progress faster then other guilds, or rank higher then other guilds there is two tokens to that. Skill and Gear. Gear is issued because of skill regardless of the loot system; players who get world ranks have both gear and skill. They get gear from being the first to kill content (which is because of their skill), then they are capable of using it better then other players because of their skill.

This leads to a sort of arms race. A player who wants to break into hardcore raiding now has to be better then the current best. Its best to use arena rankings. Lets say a player gets gladiator in season 1, he got that gladiator with a ranking of 2500. Now season 2 rolls around, he gets gladiator again, but this time at 2600. Why? Because other players have learned at 2500 rating of skill wasn't good enough to be the best. Now if a new guy wants to be a gladiator in season 3, he looks at old rankings and says, "Ok I need to be 2600 to be a gladiator." Now at the end of season he got his 2600 rating, but the player who glad from s1 an s2 got a 2750 rating. Now the new player tightens focus and s4 he achieves 2900 rating and gets glad, with the old hat (see: s1, 2, 3 glad) only gets 2850 rating.

The point I'm making is once a player achieves a high of play only has to improve in small ways. For a top player to continue to be a top player he has to improve by like 100 to 200 'rating' but a player who is trying to become a 'top player' will need to improve my 1000 to 1700 'rating', this forces them to actually be far better then the 'best', but they need to keep working on becoming the 'best' after they get in league with the 'best'.

TL;DR The only thing that dooms a player to mediocre play, or guild is there inability to accept the challenging of trying to be the best they can.

Jenkat
09-16-2011, 05:36 AM
Ok, Leethaxor. You have inspired me. I'm just going to keep trying to improve my playing little by little and not give up. Thanks! <3

Jenkat
09-30-2011, 04:13 AM
Ok, I'm back again. I have not lost faith and have been working very hard. A big improvement for me is that I have minimized my down time. I had a good raid last night when we tried Rhyolith HC. Here is a link to my best try:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k8hjljy7p5681zap/details/8/?s=820&e=1171

I went onto world of logs to study my performance and to compare it to other mages to see how I can improve. I looked at this mage's kill:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/65etthwvuwtrgyqj/details/18/?s=0&e=188

We are have similar gear and stats. What I simply cannot understand is how come he does so much better than me. I'm only looking at the adds cause we wiped on second phase and they did not which ofc makes a difference. But his dmg on adds is so much more than mine. How can this be? I feel like there is some secret to how to play well that other mages know that I do not.

I hope that you guys will look at these logs and tell me if there is anything that you can read from them that could help me cause I cannot understand how he did so much dmg to these adds compared to me.

mielikinna
09-30-2011, 07:13 PM
You are actually out dpsing him on the adds. His actual damage number may be higher due to the fact that he has fewer people in his group AoEing than you do, so they live longer, so he has more time to damge them.

leethaxor
09-30-2011, 11:09 PM
This deals more with the nature of dps.

As a general rule of thumb, arcane's dps and DPSE will always decrease as a fight gets shorter. For example for me to parse on a fight like H domo, not only do I have to be doing 50k+ dps, but I need everyone in my raid group to doing 45k+ dps, so that we can push him down fast enough that I will only get three burn phases.

Also your group's comp will force you to AoE more then it will let you single target dps, this will most likely hurt your over all dps unless you get in a really clutch burn. But remember good arcane dps is a group effort, I can't pull 50k+ dps on H domo unless my whole raiding group is pushing 45k+ also.

Jenkat
10-01-2011, 12:04 AM
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my post, Leethaxor. First of all, I have a question: What is DPSE? Secondly, what are saying? Are you saying that it is not my fault individually that my dps is lower than the other mages? But that it is due to the fact that my group generally performed worse than the other mage? Is that How I'm supposed to understand it?

leethaxor
10-01-2011, 10:48 AM
What is DPSE?
DPSE or DPSe is short hand for Damage Per Second Effective. Normal dps meters you have ingame like recount and skada measure dps by averaging how much damage you do in one second, then average this compared to how much damage you did in every other second of the encounter. This gives you DPS or Damage Per Second. DPSe is well easier, DPSe is your total damage done, divide by encounter length. You can see these two numbers can be displayed on WoL, and DPSe is a nice thing to do when you see people link 20k dps at lvl 60, and then see that they did that in 4 seconds.


Are you saying that it is not my fault individually that my dps is lower than the other mages?
Yes and no. Doing good dps in firelands is highly subjective. Even if you are the best mage in the world, if your stuck on the ground for alys, your dps is going to suck compared to mages that are flying. If you have to be AoE'ing more then single target... It is likely that you will be lower dps then people who aren't AoE'ing. But necessarily this isn't always how it works, so it is something you have to be aware of.

mielikinna
10-02-2011, 07:22 AM
Try using this tool. It will let you see what the significant differences are. In this case, he's single targetting more than you.

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/4e8873314b1cfbf110000154#damage

(http://raidbots.com/comparebot/)The second linke is the damage breakdown for you and him.

leethaxor
10-02-2011, 09:54 AM
He was a lot of his damage was to oozes which is a nice way to stack to meters on that fight.

Jenkat
10-04-2011, 06:43 AM
Thanks, Leethaxor! This is a very effective tool. =)