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Goins2754
08-02-2011, 04:04 PM
Greetings tanks,

I use the Pawn addon to give my gear a stat point value based for each spec. This uses the same stat weighting that sites like Wowhead use when you compare two pieces of gear. I use it mainly for leveling alts so I can just roll quick on upgrades when dungeon running or questing, etc.

However, since Cata came out, the stats have valued armor for tanks at 0. It used to be 1/10th of the stamina value.

Stamina was worth 10 stat points per point
Armor would be worth 1 stat point per point

Can someone explain to me why armor would be worthless for a tank? I understand that point for point it's not as valuable as stamina, but IMHO it shouldn't be 0.

Sebadoh
08-02-2011, 04:23 PM
When Blizz changed the armor scaling with 4.0, they essentially made bonus armor on items a non-viable stat. Nowadays you never see items besides trinkets with it, and even those have such a tiny negligible amount that they're not worth using over a similar dodge or (especially) mastery trinket.

It's not that armor is worthless - it's that aside from the armor already on our gear by default, it's impossible to get large amounts of it from items. Things like potions (http://www.wowhead.com/item=58090) and the engy tinker (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=82177) are still very much worth using.

Also, I wouldn't put a ton of faith in addons like that (or sites like Mr Robot) for stat priorities. They can be good for a rough guide, but you still need to put it into context yourself.

Goins2754
08-02-2011, 06:23 PM
On a side note, I went into a BG in the 70s bracket & there was a paladin bragging about how he armor stacked. IIRC, he said he had something ridiculous like 8k armor. What exactly does armor do? Would armor stacking (if the gear was available) be worth anything?

Tengenstein
08-02-2011, 07:02 PM
Armour reduces physical damage taken, except for bleeds. THis damage reduction is capped at 75%, i believe the armour cap for against a level 70 is about 32k, i have the feeiling that 8k armour is only going to be about 50-60% damage reduction, nothing particularily ground breaking for a plate class. Generally, for PVP, stacking resilience is better than bonus armour.

Quinafoi
08-02-2011, 11:10 PM
The concept of effective health still exists and will continue to exist. What has changed is the relative value of effective health compared to other forms of mitigation or avoidance. Stamina and armor aren't really worth less, it's more a matter of everything else is actually worth something now to the point that maximizing effective health isn't the single guiding principle to tanking. Now you have more principles which guide your prioritization instead of just the one concept.

swelt
08-03-2011, 01:44 AM
When Blizz changed the armor scaling with 4.0, they essentially made bonus armor on items a non-viable stat. Nowadays you never see items besides trinkets with it, and even those have such a tiny negligible amount that they're not worth using over a similar dodge or (especially) mastery trinket.

I think you are mixing two things up here. I think on the one hand, they changed armour scaling. That they also stopped creating items with bonus armour is a distinct and separate change. I am not convinced that I've seen good theory for stat weighting for armour, and I suspect it's because of the latter not the former. I'm sure people would be talking more about armour gear if there actually was some.

Airowird
08-03-2011, 02:02 AM
I think you are mixing two things up here. I think on the one hand, they changed armour scaling. That they also stopped creating items with bonus armour is a distinct and separate change. I am not convinced that I've seen good theory for stat weighting for armour, and I suspect it's because of the latter not the former. I'm sure people would be talking more about armour gear if there actually was some.Blizzard not only 'fixed' bonus armor on items becoming too powerful (by making them buffs, thus not being boosted by talents etc), but more importantly, Cataclysm uses a different stat points to armor ratio, granting you less armor per stat point you'ld have gotten in ICC. Coupled with high armor you already have in starting 85 tank gear, this made armor lose it's position as top-priority stat.

swelt
08-03-2011, 03:49 AM
Yes, but the OPs point and mine remain: can you give us a stat weight for armour vs other stats in terms of overall damage reduction? If I'm comparing an item from Tier 11 and Tier 12, they will have different armour values - putting aside the one or two armour trinkets, that's pretty much the only case where armour as a stat weight really matters. Right now, I'm prepared to bet that almost all of us just look at the parry/dodge/mastery stats on that gear and make our judgement largely around that.

Airowird
08-03-2011, 04:12 AM
In full epics, 5 Armor ~= 1 avoidance rating for damage reduction (so 4.5 or so if you count in it's reliable nature)
For EHP it's roughly 5.5 Armor = 1 Stamina (so ~8 armor = 1.5 Stamina)
The problem is that Blizzard only gives you 4 armor per stat point. So for me, I follow the rules of
1) Avoid hit/expertise
2) If it's a higher ilvl and has dodge/parry/mastery, take it, reforging solves the rest.

uglie
08-03-2011, 11:49 AM
Pretty much basing a gear choice on armor is pointless considering how when choosing between 2 items the choice is going to be based on the stam, dodge, parry and mastery ratings over how much armor a piece has since the 2 pieces of the same slot and ilvl are going to have the same armor and there are no bonus armor pieces like in icc.
So I would say that armor has about the same stat value as stam to a dps. Yes it's nice to have but is not a factor when gearing.

Tengenstein
08-03-2011, 04:12 PM
The problem is that Blizzard only gives you 4 armor per stat point.


This.

In Wrath you got close to twice as much Bonus armour per item budget point as we do now, if you look at The Black Heart, it still procs an 6k armour increase witha ~20% uptime: it was missed when they re balanced the wrath armour trinkets, an average 1.2k armour from a ilvl 200, compared to that the 346/359 armour trinkets are kinda a joke.

which is sad, i loved being the armour tank in ICC, even if it meant rage starving on DBS.

Airowird
08-03-2011, 04:59 PM
Pretty much basing a gear choice on armor is pointless considering how when choosing between 2 items the choice is going to be based on the stam, dodge, parry and mastery ratings over how much armor a piece has since the 2 pieces of the same slot and ilvl are going to have the same armor and there are no bonus armor pieces like in icc.
So I would say that armor has about the same stat value as stam to a dps. Yes it's nice to have but is not a factor when gearing.Actually most items I've seen have very similar Stamina when intended for a certain role (e.g. tank chest of 359 all have pretty much same Stamina, DPS chests have a lower amount, but all nearly equal as well). So it's just Dodge, Parry, Mastery, which with reforging makes it kinda dull (as Expertise & Hit are a no-go atm).

swelt
08-04-2011, 03:41 AM
Let's give a real example of a gear comparison where this might be relevant. Boots.

http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.4?filter=sl=8;minle=372;cr=45:46;crs=1:1;c rv=0:0;ma=1#0-2+1

The only T12 heroic option is a dodge/expertise item. You'll have to weigh that against sinestra/crafted boots, both of which are double avoidance (although they have some itemisation spent on strength). In comparing this slot, you might also observe that the heroic stompers have ~100 extra armour. Reforging expertise to mastery, the stompers give 322 Dodge/104 Expertise/69 Mastery and ~100 armour compared to 187 parry/197 mastery on the mirrored boots. If you only look at CTC, mirrored win. I'm going to guess that if you looked at overall damage reduction then the heroic stompers might come out on top?

Airowird
08-04-2011, 03:08 PM
See sig, last tab, item comparison. TankPoints works for pure damage reduction, Burst Time is a more complex model that links EHP & avoidance better together.

Goins2754
08-04-2011, 04:28 PM
I understand that at max level in tier gear, this isn't really worth discussing. I assume every gear decision is preplanned before even stepping foot in a raid. Every stat point is calculated out for maximum benefit.

Where it matter most, I think, is leveling. There are a ton of times where you get an item that's very similar to another one. One item might have 100 armor, +1 stamina; another might have 75 armor, +2 stamina. Then you're left scratching your head whether you should take one or the other.

I know this decision isn't exactly the biggest one ever. Afterall, you're gonna just replace this item in 30 min when you ding 10 levels. LOL. But, I'd still like to have that warm fuzzy feeling that I know I didn't just sell an upgrade. A minor upgrade, but an upgrade nonetheless.

Tengenstein
08-04-2011, 07:28 PM
Prolly best to go with the Ilvl or failing that the stam advantage, ultimately very little leveling content is challenging to the point that you need to have your gear optimised that well.

Fetzie
08-05-2011, 01:54 AM
TBH you could probably tank the low level content (up until about mana tombs/Slave pens) in cloth, I wouldn't lose any sleep over gearing decisions while levelling - just go for the higher item level and/or stamina as Tengenstein said.

That isn't to say it is worthless, but the amount of armor you gain by upgrading a 359 to a 378 will probably provide less total damage reduction than the parry rating from the extra strength on the item.

Loganisis
08-09-2011, 11:42 AM
Blizzard not only 'fixed' bonus armor on items becoming too powerful (by making them buffs, thus not being boosted by talents etc), but more importantly, Cataclysm uses a different stat points to armor ratio, granting you less armor per stat point you'ld have gotten in ICC. Coupled with high armor you already have in starting 85 tank gear, this made armor lose it's position as top-priority stat.

Not just that, but the 75% 'cap' increased to a huge amount. It went from 49k armor to 97k armor to reach 75% DR from armor. Essentially the amount of armor doubled, while it appears the amount of armor gained from each ilvl increased stayed the same, as has been mentioned.

Without the large green armor numbers seen in ICC and delicious armor trinkets/rings, reaching 97k armor is impossible at this point (I think every class but DKs could hit 49k armor in ICC with top gear and trinket procs).

***

However, plate tanks, that is Pallys and Warriors, are in a position where mastery = Effective Health. When you hit 102.4% Block + Parry + Dodge + Boss miss, then mastery is acting as 'armor' by, with certainty, reducing the damage of every incoming physical attack that isn't dodged/parried/missed, and it does it far more efficiently than adding armor.

Like it has been pointed out, it's not that armor is bad. Armor is still very good, it's just not as good compared to your other options as it was in 3.X. There are other, more efficient, ways to increase survability.

metalbunny
11-08-2011, 05:23 AM
The concept of effective health still exists and will continue to exist. What has changed is the relative value of effective health compared to other forms of mitigation or avoidance. Stamina and armor aren't really worth less, it's more a matter of everything else is actually worth something now to the point that maximizing effective health isn't the single guiding principle to tanking. Now you have more principles which guide your prioritization instead of just the one concept.

Health isn't avoidance. It's a buffer for when you lack the avoidance to not get hit. The only reason you need a lot of health is to compensate for the 2-8 sec wait for the healer to get you back up to safe health levels after being hit.

Please don't give new tanks the wrong ideas by calling health avoidance... got plenty of clueless tanks as is.

Fetzie
11-08-2011, 05:46 AM
Health isn't avoidance. It's a buffer for when you lack the avoidance to not get hit. The only reason you need a lot of health is to compensate for the 2-8 sec wait for the healer to get you back up to safe health levels after being hit.

Please don't give new tanks the wrong ideas by calling health avoidance... got plenty of clueless tanks as is.

Effective Health is a metric that describes the amount of raw damage a tank can take before he dies, and is therefore a measure of Mitigation (which is what Quin was referencing). The post you quote does not call health "avoidance".

aresius
11-08-2011, 08:36 AM
Indeed "Compared to other forms of mitigation or (compared to) avoidance".
He never said health is avoidance.
Speak of thread necromancy, btw. This is 3 months old.

Quinafoi
11-08-2011, 09:06 AM
That interpretation of my post scares me.