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Apop
07-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Well the background to this is rather simple. I've recently joined a guild where substantially more is asked of me from a raid standpoint than I'm used. Namely calling stuff out and organising cooldown usage.
Now the <Read off my DBM so folks realise why their feet feel all warm and fuzzy> is just something I'll have to get used to overtime.
Cooldowns however are something I'm at a total loss for. I'm used to an admittedly piss-poor habit of just using my own shield wall and last stand/regen when it seemed some serious shit's about to go down and tunnel visioned from there so this concept of using my healers as slightly more than "health dispensers that don't want to be hit in the face" is new and exciting territory for me.

So overall I guess what I'd like to know is;

What's your attitude to cooldowns? How and when do you use them?
Just what are the external ones I can utilize ( our raid comp varies healerwise ) links to resources with cooldowns and caveats would be swell.
Warrior specifically how do you handle situations where you want to reduce damage overall rather than save your abilities for a "rainy day" ie currently we're on raggy normal, which lacks any real BOOM DAMAGE HAPPENED moments for tanks.
Oh and while we're here, here's my armory link if any kind souls feel up to checking out how I'm set up overall.
(I'm aware my dodge/parry is slightly off kilter but the pieces that could bridge the gap seem to provide a better boost by reforging the dodge rather than the parry to mastery)

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/terenas/Rhall/simple

Airowird
07-31-2011, 04:52 AM
On your armoury: I'ld go for GoTC for the 2y extra (easier to pick up adds/AoE tank) over GoVR.
You're logged in DPS gear, so only can tell you this:
Parry Rating should roughly be 200-250 over Dodge Rating due to HtL & Windwalk. You should aim to have just enough Mastery to have SB Unhittable (Dodge, Parry & Block on your paper doll should be >=72.4%), at which point SB becomes a mini-shield wall. Use Eternal metagem with this. After this point, Stamina & Dodge/Parry usually out-perform Mastery.

On raid cooldowns:
The use of cooldowns largely depend on what kind of burst damage happens.

AoE CDs:
* Disc Priest: Power Word: Barrier reduces damage taken within and increases healing received.
* Holy Priest: Holy Word: Sanctuary patch that heals everyone inside it.
* Any Priest: Divine Hymn Heals raid members with lowest HP, also grants a healing buff.
* Resto Druid: Tree of Life increases healing done by the druid and greatly boosts several healing spells
* Resto Shaman: Spirit Link Totem reduces damage taken within range, balances out HP amongst everyone in it every second.
* Holy Paladin: Aura Mastery when used with resistance aura can provide damage reduction against magic damage
* Prot Paladin: Divine Guardian Everyone except the Paladin takes 20% less damage
* Paladin: Holy Radiance heals everyone within 20y for 10s, more effective when people are close to the healer
* Unholy DK: Anti-Magic Zone reduces magic damage by 75%, but is capped by the DKs AP.
* Warrior: Rallying Cry increases everyone's HP by 20% for it''s duration, shares CD with Last Stand

Tank CDs:
* Disc Priest: Pain Suppression 40% damage reduction
* Holy Priest: Guardian Spirit increases healing received by 40% will sacrifice itself to prevent killing blow
* Resto Druid: Nature's Swiftness makes the next heal instant and do 50% more healing
* Shaman: No real CD (Nature's Swiftness only makes a heal instant, no extra benefit)
* Holy Paladin: Divine Favor gives 20% crit & 20% haste for 20s to the Paladin.
* Paladin: Lay on Hands heals you for the max HP of the Paladin
* Paladin: Hand of Sacrifice transfers 30% of the damage you take to the Paladin, up to his/her total HP

All tanks always have the following:
* a Shield Wall-like ability (-50% dmg on 3min, only Warriors have a 40/60% on 2/4min one, depending on glyph)
* an emergency +HP (or healing received, when DK/Druid glyphs it)
* a minor CD: 1min CD 20% reduction for DKs & Druids, a 30s block buff for Warriors & Paladins (roughly the same effect)

If there is no real need for a CD as tank, keep SB on cooldown, use Shield Wall when the raids needs massive healing, Rallying Cry + Enraged Regen also helps to give healers a bit of breathing room and allow your tank healer to throw an extra AoE heal out to help.
Try to get an addon that yells out your CDs to raid, so healers know that you'll be taking less damage.

Apop
07-31-2011, 08:38 AM
Well firstly thanks for the list, more or less exactly what I wanted resource wise. Can slap in cooldowns of each and such myself from there. As for gear I keep doing that by accident. Should have it sorted now.
I'm not certain I agree with your approximation on mastery getting outperformed by dodge and parry though, especially at higher gear levels. As DM starts to set in mastery becomes MORE valuable I would have assumed. Not to mention a block heavy warrior will take less spiky damage. I'm currently closer to 94% ctc buffed to the nines. After all any shield block that brings me above 102.4% isn't wasted. It just becomes additional crit block.

Usually I'll blow shield block on cooldown unless theres specific magic damage coming through, on raggy for example I find half the effect is wasted if I don't have at least one stack of burning wound at the time. So I'm usually hitting it on pull for the burst threat then staggering it for one or two seconds if I don't have the dot yet.

Airowird
07-31-2011, 10:11 AM
First, only Block Chance from Shield Block is converted.
Secondly, 1% crit block is ALWAYS inferior to 1% block chance. The only moment they are equal is at some theoretical point where you are exactly at 100% block in the combat table (and don't ever dodge, parry or get missed) and have 0% crit block chance. But that is not possible due to how Mastery works. So while any Mastery past SB unhittable retains it's passive value, it does decrease the value of Shield Block as ability, to the extent that a higher SB uptime actually gives you less overall damage reduction from that Mastery than not using SB would.
In fact, if I take you current armoury & compare a Mastery gain in a normal setup vs with SB up, during SB that extra Mastery will be less than 80% as efficient for you.

Bigbad
07-31-2011, 12:19 PM
Depends alot on the fight but shiedlwall proactively when a high amount of damage is incoming, last stand reactively when your hp dips too low. I like to have 1 dodge on use trinket(vial of stolen memories or the new one from the firelands dailies) to use between shieldblocks. As far as external cds go i sometimes call out for a pain supression on vent, our pally healers and holy priest use their cd on their own. Healers sort raidcooldowns themselves.

As tank its easy to call out new spawns or phase transitions can focus a target if you want to keep an eye on something specific.

As far as raggy goes the 4piece T12 is king there making you unhittable for the majority of the time. No real need to pop shieldwall except maybe after the second transition? Having a dodge on use trinket is nice for tankswap fights as well basicly doubles the uptime on it.

Apop
07-31-2011, 12:30 PM
Okay I do get what you mean, that while it doesn't have DR per se mastery does diminish in value somewhat above 77.4% ctc during SB. However how does that compare to the DR on parry/dodge ALL of the time? As tanks don't we aim to focus on when we are most vulnerable rather than when we are safest?
Not mention most discussions I've seen on the subject seem to push mastery as a kingpin stat and I can see the logic behind it when it comes to not taking damage spikes. When I said mastery past 77.4% wasn't wasted I meant more in the sense hit past 8% for melee dps.

With the firelands out and about it seems more than possible to reach 102.4% passively and I would have thought this to be the aim. Do we ignore that until we have sufficient gear to reach it or what exactly?
I guess I'm just not seeing the massive repercussions of mastery being 20% less efficient 33.33% of the time

Also, surely your first point is somewhat moot unless I had the capability or intention to stack mastery past 102.4% passive?

@Bigbad, much thanks, it's always nice to get the perspective of another person. I've only raided with two guilds currently and I've not a wealth of experience in what's expected.

Also putting Raelli's spell announcer back into my arsenal so thanks to Air for the reminder, I'd actually forgotten to get it back after I reinstalled wow awhile back.

Airowird
07-31-2011, 01:18 PM
25% block chance (which you're going for) is worth roughly 75.8k HP if you can convert it all to Stamina, which is always 100% efficient. SB covers up to 1/3rd of the time, which, when used correctly, should be enough for all the big hits or raid damage bursts. The rest of the time you will most likely be constantly topped off, as healers will be expecting you to take damage.

PS:
To counter the 75768HP not gained from Stamina with guaranteed blocks in a worst case scenario, you'ld need >244414 HP
You're not there yet.

pulled
08-01-2011, 03:57 AM
This is a very interesting concept airowird is there a place I can read more into it, I don't think I 100 percent understand.
specifically this

So while any Mastery past SB unhittable retains it's passive value, it does decrease the value of Shield Block as ability, to the extent that a higher SB uptime actually gives you less overall damage reduction from that Mastery than not using SB would.

perhaps this is has to do with an understanding of the sb post 102.4 mech.

from what I do understand I think that possibly this counter point was not suffeciently addressed

As tanks don't we aim to focus on when we are most vulnerable rather than when we are safest?

so looking at the non sb up-time where we are weakest we will be very weak compared to kinda weak. Also a very interesting factor may be the 4set bonus b/c atm for my gear while stacking mastery it puts me at 102.7 buffed, so a 66 percent uninhabitable uptime.


is worth roughly 75.8k HP if you can convert it all to Stamina, which is always 100% efficient

saying that 75.8khp extra stam is 100 percent efficient or in other words always useful is simply not true. With good healers they will utilize the health pool they have and atm im not dien mid cast or b/c of a lack of hp, if i were to have an extra 75k hp it would sit at 85 percent life 90 percent of the time instead of 70 but would have no real impact during that period.

klausi
08-01-2011, 07:24 AM
saying that 75.8khp extra stam is 100 percent efficient or in other words always useful is simply not true. With good healers they will utilize the health pool they have and atm im not dien mid cast or b/c of a lack of hp, if i were to have an extra 75k hp it would sit at 85 percent life 90 percent of the time instead of 70 but would have no real impact during that period.
Adding another 75k hitpoints gives your healers the leeway to use less expensive heals to bring you back up, keep their hots rolling etc.

But let's just look at a more reasonable scenario:
heroic Beth'tilac trinket + reputation one + 580 mastery (14.5 gems due to meta requirement) = +12.2% block/critblock
heroic Scales + heroic Vial + 870 stamina (14.5 gems) = +37.5k hitpoints

And if you really want to you can add another 8k hitpoints for flask vs 225 mastery/armor or 225 mastery/90 resistance.

pulled
08-01-2011, 04:30 PM
i understand the 75k hit point idea, but i disagree that it a majority of the time used. obviously it depends on the boss but i find that most fl fights its burst damage not sustained long period hard damge. Your 75k will simply make the range of the cheap heals be 85-95 percent dips as oposed to 75-95. My healers are usen cheap healon on the low damage periods w.o issue. so the 100 percent efective 75k hp isnt true imo. Yes it will help on the high damage periods.

Airowird
08-02-2011, 02:42 AM
Ok, on damage periods you can still get SB up for full Unhittable AND have the extra HP.

Bigbad
08-02-2011, 04:55 AM
In fact, if I take you current armoury & compare a Mastery gain in a normal setup vs with SB up, during SB that extra Mastery will be less than 80% as efficient for you.

During shieldblock 1 point in mastery is about 0,6% damage reduction, the time between shieldblock its about 0,9% damage reduction, while avoidance is around 0,4% damage reduction during shieldblock and 0,7% damage reduction in between. Depends a bit on the amount of block and avoidance but these numbers should hold up or be close for most reasonable values in T12 gear.


Ok, on damage periods you can still get SB up for full Unhittable AND have the extra HP.

Would you need extra hp during shieldblock? I doubt it. Extra hp is only valuable on spikedamage that most likely happens between shieldblocks. On predictable spikedamage cooldowns>stamina.
You could go for 96,4% CTC + 4set with a bit more stamina or go all out for 102,4% this tier. I think i like the 96,4% CTC option best with just a little bit more EH for the majority of the fights. Would be around 800 avoidance/mastery ratings for the last 6% vs 1200 stamina, besides i like my vial of stolen memories too much ;)

pulled
08-02-2011, 05:35 AM
that sounds reasonable bigbad


Ok, on damage periods you can still get SB up for full Unhittable AND have the extra HP.

so u concede the hp doesn't help most the time but, during the non-sb periods of non-burst period the extra mastery will be very useful and mitigate more and even more critically smooth out damage. Non burst periods mastery stack is greater imo then.

for the situation in quote that's all fun and nice but when ur sb falls off u start to get owned and spiking, even though u have the extra stam the healer must take into consideration the pretty often occurrence of a direct hit so they will find themselves using expensive heals even when a cheap one could be used just to counter the chance if you take consecutive direct hits. Also, i think the most critical point that perhaps counters this quote the most is if i am utilizing sb at the very very start of a burst phase then i must "sandbag" it or keep it off cool-down for a short period at least which eats up your original thought of on c/d it makes mastery worse. If i must wait to use sb for high damage periods even for 15 seconds that really hurts the entire reason for not using mastery in the first place. With all this being said on current hm progression(10man at least) I do not find myself getting 2 shot or even 3 shot at that, why do i need more stam? These are just a few thoughts I had on the stam-sb/unhitable concept and am happy to hear a counter to these points, plz don't take these points as aggressive or even saying your wrong i genuinely would like to know your thoughts on this, perhaps i am missing somthing.

Reev
08-02-2011, 06:35 AM
Don't forget Tranquility for a Druid raid cooldown. Also, Lightwell can be used as a raid healing cooldown if your raid is smart enough to use it.

As far as shieldwall usage on non tank spike damage fights, use it when the raid is taking a bunch of damage to take the pressure off the healers while they get everyone back up. If there's no moment like that and no spike damage tanking, just use it on cooldown.

Apop
08-02-2011, 07:59 AM
Thanks to all the posts so far, I think I'm beginning to get the hang of this. Heroic modes will be the real test I'm sure.
I'm quite liking the mastery discussion though, I never did like blindly following one opinion.
On the subject is comparing mastery based on "if you could make it all stamina" not a bit irrelevant? You can't for a start. Personally my gems are all puissants and defenders I'm getting plenty of stamina for the content I'm in. The real mastery gain is to be had in reforging so shouldn't we be contrasting parry/dodge to mastery?

I am liking the idea of gearing not quite to the CTC cap but just enough so that shield block and 4pc covers 66% and an avoidance trinket covers the remainder when necessary. I should probably start doing my molten front dailies again so =/