PDA

View Full Version : Tanking So WHAT IS the issue?



elehisie
07-16-2011, 09:11 AM
Hello guys :)

I'm a DK Tank, have been one since Wrath, and all thru Cata I've been doing ok (not great, I know, but ok).
But thing is... since Zandalari came out, I've started having serious holding aggro issues.

While tanking heroic dungeons ramdomly, I was able to generate threat well, meaning I always had it at at least double the threat the top dps in group was doing, were they hunters, mages, druids, or whatever. I've had dodge/parry above 12% all that time, and when pulling big groups the issue was never the mobs running around, but mostly health or healer mana. I took my time to learn to ask for the CCs and whatnot and have progressed well. But since Zandalari dungeons came out, I'm having trouble holding big groups onto myself. This goes for the Kilnara's cats, The eyes at the begining of Occuthar in BH, kitties that jump on you in ZA, even the snakes right before first boss in ZG. Thing is it's happening in places where it didn't before, like the stair mobs in VP, the adepts in last boss room of Stonecore, the groups of mobs in GB.

I've been looking at Omen, and while threat seems not to be the issue, cuz I am still able to generate the double of top dps thereat, aggro seems to be falling apart. Anyhow, I proceeded this week to fix my hit up to 8%, which i did by reforging/regemming and it did improve the situation: I had 2% hit before and 15% dodge/parry, and now I have lowered dodge and parry to barely mininum (12%ish) and raised hit to 8%. I have sacrificied a bit of health but replacing Stamina gems with hit. But it didn't magically solve the aggro problem.

What happens is that when I have more then 1 mob on me, I never have the need to compete for threat on the one i am foccused onto, but the other one (which i haven't yet properly hit, or have hit once or twice with Rune Strike, but got the deceases on it thru pestielnce) will definatelly run to the DPS guys hitting it. And at any timed ZA attempt where i have to pull like 4 mobs together, this generates chaos, with dps ppl running around insanely, yelling at the tank (me) cuz i can't hold aggro, and deep down, all of the 3 dps guys are hitting a different mob, which is not the one I am hitting.

I mostly always mark the guy I am hitting with a skull, to show everyone which one to hit, and when it dies, and i go forward to a new target, I mark it again with skull. I have this idea that if no one is hitting the wrong mob, I will keep aggro thru BB, Pestilence, DnD and whatever. This is why I always put DnD down near my feet. When I have a group where ppl are actually doing that, things work! Example: single target boss raid fights. I dont lose the aggro, except if ppl start hitting the boss before I actually got to it or am still positioning Nef around.

My real question in it is: is it really a hit/stats/shitty gear/whatever hardware issue or is it more like a style issue? Like maybe I'm doing the wrong rotation? Am I totally wrong to expect DPS ppl to actually hit the the skull? Should a good tank be totally foolproof, as in being able to keep aggro while ppl is hitting the last mob on threat table, hitting it while I am positioning it like the Nefarian fight... I mean: Is it me or is it them? Are they bad dps for doing this or is it me who is a shitty tank for actually expecting ppl to have brains? I don't want to sound rude, but I mark the mob with a skull and actually expect ppl to think like "oh look the tank wants me to hit THAT one, not this one, if I stop dpsing the wrong shit, the tank will take it from me".

A second question here is: what can I do to become a trully foolproof tank?

sifuedition
07-16-2011, 11:17 AM
For one thing, I imagine the threat issue is early in the pull. Dps are supposed to be on your target...or they are supposed to pull. Dps AND tanks have have their threat/dmg reduced on off targets. Half way through a pull, when one or two mobs are already dead, your vengence will likely be high enough it doesn't matter. They can't be off target early though.

On a side note...your dodge/parry sounds unusually high. Sounds like you probably need more mastery.

For a dk, expertise can be a valuable stat to help ensure death strike doesn't miss. 16 or so should be fine. Get rid of the hit, however.

Michultradk
07-16-2011, 11:51 AM
A link to your Character always helps :). http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-forgotten-coast/Elehisie/talent/primary

You are missing a bunch of enchants, though none will improve your threat a great deal. It will come down to your rotation and practicing that will solve your problem. Another thing is your are severly gimping your survival with the Hit and Expertise gems, do away with them and go back to pure Mastery and Hybrid Mastery/Stamina or Mastery/Parry. As far as your pure Stamina gems, as of late I have some of them as well so I'm not gonna comment there, just make sure to hit socket bonuses when it's advantageous.

Getting and holding aggro takes practice and more practice, especially since there are many factors to consider when trying to dissect what could be going wrong. One thing's for sure, only use BB to pick up running mobs that die quickly, use Heart Strike and rotate targets more often and it will serve you much better. I use Tidy Plates and Threat Plates and even though I don't mark targets often with a good eye you can tell which one is losing health the fastest and quickly swap to that one if needed.

Your rotation should look something like this; On 3 - 5 mobs - Outbreak, Drop D&D, Heart Strike, Death Strike Twice, (Spread diseases when possible) Rune Strike or Dancing Rune Weapon to dump runic power, HOW, Blood Tap if runes are on CD, Heart Strike twice, Death Strike as needed and should be used when heavy hits are coming in. You should not be using Icy touch or Plague Strike that much, especially on the start(On single target boss pulls sometimes it's better to open with IT&PS combo and save Outbreak for during the fight when runes are needed for Death Strike healz). Make sure and understand who else supplies the damage debuffs and if you have someone in your group that does then you shouldn't have to use your Frost and Unholy runes on IT and PS so you can get more Death Strikes in.

You have the Lich Bourne Spec so you should be using the Death Coil Prime Glyph, and change the Death Strike glyph to Heart Strike(Increases damage by 30%, very substantial), you should never be pooling Runic Power for any length of time because you have DRW and LB to utilize every chance you get. The D&D glyph is very poor overall and should not be used because the amount of threat it generates over multiple targets is very small, don't get me wrong D&D should be used on pulls but you have to quickly build a threat lead because it fades rather quickly.

Blood Boil can be used for things like the Butterflies that come out on the boss in ZA after the guys release them, you would drop D&D at the base of the bridge, when it starts to fade and more come hit BB and they'll know you're there.

On the Cats, it's a tuff pull and you will always be taunting and moving there to get better positions to do a quick Rune Strike. Make sure you are using DRW whenever it's up, if you are with some highly geared DPS there's not much you can do but try your best, if they give you a couple of seconds it works much better but good luck with that. Just make sure you are swapping targets to the ones that are losing health the most.

To see things better, Tidy Plates and Threat plates or a similar name plate addon is a must for tanking, it places a bar above enemy heads so you can see different things about the mobs you are tanking. Addons like Taunt Master, or any other proclaimed automatic taunting type addon are not advised because they are very unreliable and sporatic at best.

NOTE; INFORMATION ABOUT USING VUHDO AS A TAUNTING DEVICE HAS BEEN REMOVED. THE WAY I USE IT IS DIFFERENT AND I DONT WANT TO GIVE BAD OR MISLEADING INFORMATION.

So in summary, you are gimping your survival having your hit and exp so high and it's not needed. Basically you should only be using several spells mainly, Heart Strike, Death Strike, D&D, Rune Strike and DRW to dump runic power or LB when needed for healing. Of course Out Break for diseases. As the above poster said 16 or so Exp is plenty good enough, it really comes down to practice from there. Ideally you should never gem, enchant or reforge for Hit or Exp. the stats you get from your gear alone should be good enough. Don't forget to enchant the rest of your gear. Work your rotation and come back here with specifics on how you are doing it so we can tweak it some if needed.

elehisie
07-16-2011, 12:51 PM
Thx a lot!

Sifuedition: I've been stacking dodge/parry/stamina ever since Defense was gone. I have considered expertise to come second after hit, and left Mastery like... after dodge/parry, after stamina, after hit, after exp ... you get it. So I'll look into reforging into Mastery and see how goes :) Now expertise is up on 14...

Michultradk (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?70559-Michultradk):

Well... I didn't want to be judged only for gear, and I know I have the most unique name of all WoW xD
All Elehisie you find are mine :P

Now about the rotation... I have been using Outbreak instead of Icy Touch and plague strike. Cuz it sort of works, its quicker. I dont always have it free for every pull, but i use it whenver the cd ends. Same for DRW. I have all 3 interrupts stuck in a macro, and when i need to use it, I figured if I hit the button once it will use the first thats not on CD. Not sure if thats the best idea, but saves lots of buttons xD I tend to start the rotation with DS instead of HS. I use a lot more DS than HS, thats why I glyphed DS... Im probably not using Blood tap enough, cuz I hit rune locks on big pulls :/ I know its bad...

About addons, I know Omen isnt enough, cuz I only see the threat on the thingy Im hitting. I started using nUI last month and it was cool for clearing up space in the screen, but I found two major problems with it: I cant instantly track down stacks of debuffs on stuff, like stacks you are supposed to count, like in Halfus fight and also, it was bugging some screen fx, and Id often miss stuff Im supposed to avoid, like fire. But I miss it... I like the unclutterness it gave me. I never tried Tidy plates or threat plates, I will try them, thanks :) But about VuhDoo... omg. I mean can something be more confusing?I have no idea how to configure it properly. The idea of having my taunts on mouse buttons is cool, itd save two buttons on my bar, which is cool, but it sounds like something id have to get used to... I pick my target with Tab, but sometimes I click them to mark them for CC. I like it though. Ill try it. I use the show target of target in the normal interface, so I know it something Im targeting is targeting me, and Omen, and I leave the V option on, to show name plates on all enemies, which is good, but can get really confusing and often it clutters the screen too much... :/ I've also tried Grid, but the more I tried ocnfiguring it, the worst it ended up looking >_<

Michultradk
07-16-2011, 03:49 PM
Getting VuhDO will not remove your buttons, it only helps with taunting targets that are attacking other people.

You should never lead out with Death Strike, you are wasting your runes, start with Heart Strike. Sounds like you may not know that Heart Strike hits 3 targets, even though the damage diminishes on the second and third target it's still way above BB, and D&D for that matter. If you swap your Deaqth Strike usage with your Heart Strike usage your threat problems might go away. DOnt forget to use Rune Strike as well and never let your runiuc power cap.

Change those glyph's out, run a dungeon using Heart Strike more often and come back and tell me how it went.

Definately use Blood Tap more often, damn near on CD until you understand it more and can utilize it a little better with some fine tuning. Also use Horn of Winter during your rotation, though not as important it does add 10 runic power.

elehisie
07-18-2011, 08:55 AM
Yeah, I tried Vuhdo and Tidy Plates: threat.

Honestly Vuhdo isn't at all bad, but I just think it might be a lot more useful for healing. It does help to target things, but it distracts me too much. Now Tidy Plates really helped me... it makes life really easier for seeing on which mobs I'm losing threat, and then take it back. Changing targets more frequently and watching the threat on all mobs at the same time did the thing in Zandalari dungeons. Also, I didn't see a lot of change there in DPS or threat when I glyphed HS instead of DS but overall I'm losing less aggro. It might be combination of everything I changed lately, including getting gear to go from 355 to 361 iL :)

I feel more confident now that I'm doing everything I can to tank well!

I might add too that since I pugged a FL trash run as MT last night, and was able to hold aggro against a hunter doing 18K+ DPS. :)
So, I think a great part of zandalari dungeons nearly never working out right is due to groups just plainly sucking <_<

Theotherone
07-18-2011, 09:10 AM
I've gotten to the point where if dps can't keep it in their pants for a GCD, they can die. Most of my threat issues (and I really don't have any most of the time) come on large pulls because dps through out an AoE as soon as I approach the mobs. If dps sits back for a GCD or two, there are no issues at all.

Threat is no longer lol WoLK easy - Blizz intentionally made it a bit more challanging, in fact I recall a Ghostcrawler post where he said, in effect, it's amusing to them that dps can't give a tank a GCD or two to build threat.

My hit is at total of 0.00% on my DK.

nyghtprowler
07-18-2011, 09:30 AM
Im a Prot War so I realize my abilities <> DK Abilities.

What I can relate to though is aggro issue in ZA ZG. In the beginning when they first opened up I obviously lacked gear - I was having issues here and there with aggro at the start of trash pulls. Later on I got a handle on that because my gear imporved. Currently I see myself having more threat issues in ZA and ZG and it is mostly due to the 3 DPS being well above 15k DPS. In fact one hunter I group with all the time averages 20k easy.

With the big bump in gear lately people are just puking out DPS at the start of fights and I am feeling it! I had to change up my pulling to account for it. Went with a pvp trink that I can pop for 1300 str, pop recklessness and a couple other prefight casts then I pull. At the start of the fight my dps is very high - I pop inner rage and spam cleaves along with other AoE abilities and have awesome luck holding aggro.

Prior to that I actually was pretty happy to change over to my hunter alt and just coast through instances for a change. As a tank losing aggro is like a huge hit to our ego's lol its like we aren't doing our jobs. I did a little research and improved though - These days I like it agian - just took some practice and I found myself really working harder to hold aggro early on.

Hang in there :) You'll get it!

elehisie
07-25-2011, 06:51 AM
oh yeah the ego thing xD I'm one of those tanks who are control freaks :P so I go "whaaaat? I must control the fights and stir the mobs at my will" And I have changed my big pulls a bit too by cycling targets early on and hitting mobs with a high threat ability when possibile, that on top of s[reading decease helps a great deal. But having the dps in the party foccus fire is the thing to do :x

Quinafoi
07-25-2011, 07:21 AM
Target of target taunting is never really a good idea because you are reliant on the other persons target actually being what you want to taunt. A DPS can switch targets after pulling aggro, or pull with AoE and have never targeted the mob in the first place. A healer can pull aggro while naturally targeting friendly units and healing which you can't taunt. There will always be holes in that system and other than a paladin's righteous defense no taunt should ever be used on a raid frame as it promotes reliance on a system with major flaws. And even in the paladin case they should avoid doing things this way as it only works with one of their taunts.

Theotherone
07-25-2011, 07:22 AM
For a dk, expertise can be a valuable stat to help ensure death strike doesn't miss. 16 or so should be fine. Get rid of the hit, however.

I'm finding, Death Strike will still miss even if expertise is at the soft cap. My hit is 0.00% and my exp is at 26 (it's all gear too, no gem or reforge or anything), but Death Strike still misses. Threat is not an issue at all.

Loganisis
07-25-2011, 10:06 AM
26 exp only removes dodge, it doesn't remove all parry, that's what, 54 exp? So even soft-capped, you will still see some parries. And 0% hit will see some misses. All in all, 8% miss + 6.5% parry left on the table =14.5% of DS will not land.

I know everyone talking about this knows that, but it wasn't really clear reading it, so this is just for new readers sake, unless there's been some stealth change I don't know about about hit not affecting DS?


And the reason sifu is saying hit isn't needed is until 26 exp, expertise is 2x valuable as hit (from 26-54 they are equal). This is because every ~120 expertise rating removes 1% parry chance and 1% dodge chance, increasing your hits by 2%, whereas ~120 hit rating only removes 1% hit, increasing your hits by 1%.

Michultradk
07-25-2011, 10:11 AM
Target of target taunting is never really a good idea because you are reliant on the other persons target actually being what you want to taunt. A DPS can switch targets after pulling aggro, or pull with AoE and have never targeted the mob in the first place. A healer can pull aggro while naturally targeting friendly units and healing which you can't taunt. There will always be holes in that system and other than a paladin's righteous defense no taunt should ever be used on a raid frame as it promotes reliance on a system with major flaws. And even in the paladin case they should avoid doing things this way as it only works with one of their taunts.

Correct. I have deleted and changed my comment to reflect as such. The way I use the addon was not explained correctly so I just deleted the information.

Sorry for the confusion, but it's been corrected.

swelt
07-25-2011, 10:41 AM
And the reason sifu is saying hit isn't needed is until 26 exp, expertise is 2x valuable as hit (from 26-54 they are equal). This is because every ~120 expertise rating removes 1% parry chance and 1% dodge chance, increasing your hits by 2%, whereas ~120 hit rating only removes 1% hit, increasing your hits by 1%.
That might be true for most situations, but we are talking about AOE here... so expertise only helps a DK with heart strike, while hit will help blood boil (and presumably death and decay can miss?). Rune strike also can't be dodged/parried but can miss. A DKs threat set (for the ZA/ZG trash clears the OP is struggling with) will want a good amount of both, although capping both is probably overkill.

Coming back to the OP.... "since Zandalari came out, I've started having serious holding aggro issues" - that's patch 4.1, and a whole bunch of classes had their AOE buffed. Feral druids in particular became horrible agro monsters if they just ran in and did their aoe rotation off the bat. By now, many of them will have learned a bit of restraint, some of them won't.

If running heroics is your primary focus, I'd say you have the wrong spec. You have a Raid MT spec with lichborne, which is good for boss tanking, but it's not designed for AOE threat. A build with crimson scourge and morbidity would be 'aoe spec'. But if you are getting started raiding, then stick with what you have, as you'll want to learn to deal with the limitations of the build you'll be using.

After that, I think it's mostly about getting good discipline with your group. Hotkey skull and make sure your DPS are all hitting that first, so that you know where you put your opening threat. Use the kinds of rotations described above. If things are getting crazy, pop Dancing Rune Weapon (glyphed) for the threat and don't forget Empower Rune Weapon will let you spam more buttons if you are running low on juice.

Loganisis
07-25-2011, 10:47 AM
That might be true for most situations, but we are talking about AOE here... so expertise only helps a DK with heart strike, while hit will help blood boil (and presumably death and decay can miss?). Rune strike also can't be dodged/parried but can miss. A DKs threat set (for the ZA/ZG trash clears the OP is struggling with) will want a good amount of both, although capping both is probably overkill.

I was actually referring to the discussion on DS with Sifu and TOO, but that's additional clarification that's good, that what's good for DS isn't necissarily optimal for other abilities.

Theotherone
07-25-2011, 11:47 AM
I'm almost thinking of adding some hit to my DK; I'm looking at hit as kind of a hybrid survival/threat stat i.e. DS = healing; missed DS = no healing and no shield.

While I know most of the experienced tanks who are better at this then I am, preach survival stats, I found that my warrior even with 26 exp needs hit for threat; wasn't this way prior to 4.2, but with the gear inflation I have issues with dps pulling aggro. So I reforged some dodge and parry got my hit to 6% and after testing a few heroics, I had no more issues and my dps took off too. Off the top of my head, all in all I lost about 1.5% to 2% (give or take) combined dodge and parry ( 27% to 25% or so) for the hit.

I don't know, now I'm kind of on the fence with the usefulness of hit/expertise.

swelt
07-26-2011, 07:34 AM
I can't abide being without any expertise or hit on the DK, rune tetris becomes a nightmare and it really does hurt if you get a string of failed death strikes or your blade barrier falls off. That's not to say 'cap expertise and hit', but don't just follow what the shield tanks are doing as class mechanics are worlds apart.