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jworley
07-13-2011, 10:15 AM
Alright, first of all here's my current talent tree..

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/cairne/Qig/talent/primary (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/cairne/Q%C3%BCig/talent/primary)

My single target threat generation has been off the last few days it seems like. At times I'm not even breaking 20K TPS. Rotation hasn't changed much...

Single target: SS and Rev stay on CD, Dev to 3 stacks, Dev in between SS and Rev, HS to rage dump

Am I missing something in the current theory craft for prot threat gen or am I just off my game a bit??

Thanks.

Tengenstein
07-13-2011, 10:28 AM
Yes you are missin.

Optimum single targetthreat rotation is:

SS>Dev>Dev>other

restarting each time you get an SnB proc
Other is Concussion Blow> TC refreshing a rend with less tha 3 secs left Shockwave>Heroic Throw>Rend(if somone providing the bleed debuff>Dev
Dump with HS whenever you have the rage to do so while maintaining the above rotation and replace Dev with Rev if rage starts getting tight.

Drop the points out of Blitz, PvP talent and not a particualrily great one at that either, finish of War academy and cruelty. replace cruelty with thunderstruck if you're struggling with AoE. blue sockest sshould be puissant dream emeralds, red sockets should be fine ember topaz's, yellows should be fractured amberjewels, meta should be eternals shadowspirit diamond. get both you BS sockets on your gear, get your missing enchants, get some proper tanking trinkets, DPS trinkets are for DPS, Reforge out of hit/exp/crit/haste into MasterParry/dodge.

jworley
07-13-2011, 09:51 PM
So is Rev no longer a regular part of the rotation??

Are hit and exp no longer needed for tanks?? Used to be no hit/exp = lower TPS generation.

Thanks.

Loganisis
07-14-2011, 12:08 AM
hit/exp have always been the least effective way to generate threat. Well at least since I started playing WotLK. They are crutches to cover up ackward builds and sub-optimal use of abilities.

You didn't need hit/exp in WotLK and you don't need it now*

*There are certain specific situations where cutting edge guilds run into enrage timers and need a little more DPS so they need more tank DPS and more threat at the beginning to go harder. But this is a rare case and not applicable for *most* situations.

Airowird
07-14-2011, 12:47 AM
Rev is part of the rotation (for now) if you have it talented, although at the current rate, it should be dropping out somewhere around late T12 heroic (depending on weapon & gear setup).

Hit/exp is not needed, and you usually need the defensive stats more to go through a fight.
Also, you should try to get in CD abilities such as Shockwave or Conc Blow in that 3rd GCD after SS.
If you can handle the complexity, use Rend & keep it refreshed with BnT. It's worth doing an extra TC every minute for the damage (and if you miss with TC, you still got time to refresh before the debuff falls off). If you find this too difficult or have another reliable source of melee slow on the boss, simply use Rend on that 3rd GCD as well.

jworley
07-14-2011, 07:30 AM
Alright yall. Thanks for the info.

feralminded
07-15-2011, 11:17 AM
If this is raid tanking then you can all but tape down Heroic Strike. That will help a lot. I honestly don't even think much about it on raid bosses and keep HS on CD, never run out of rage, and I'm pumping out 40-50k TPS.

If you are rage starved, like in a normal dungeon, then absolutely use talented revenge AND get yourself some expertise and hit. Since tanking Alysrazor I've started wearing my Alys gear (Expertise capped, ~6% hit) on the normal dungeons and have dramatically improved my quality of life as a tank and definitely made my DPS'ers happy as well. Reminds me of back in the ICC days when I used to tank on my bear wearing my kitty gear.

If I wear my raid max-mitigation gear in normal dungeons (basically mastery/parry coming out of my ears) into a dungeon with my equally geared DPSers I have little hope of holding threat, even on the dungeon bosses because they hit like sissies so no vengeance or rage to work with.

Rystrave
07-15-2011, 11:42 AM
Don't forget, enchanting all your stuff helps too :)

jasonbr
07-20-2011, 11:58 AM
Rev is part of the rotation (for now) if you have it talented, although at the current rate, it should be dropping out somewhere around late T12 heroic (depending on weapon & gear setup).

Hit/exp is not needed, and you usually need the defensive stats more to go through a fight.
Also, you should try to get in CD abilities such as Shockwave or Conc Blow in that 3rd GCD after SS.
If you can handle the complexity, use Rend & keep it refreshed with BnT. It's worth doing an extra TC every minute for the damage (and if you miss with TC, you still got time to refresh before the debuff falls off). If you find this too difficult or have another reliable source of melee slow on the boss, simply use Rend on that 3rd GCD as well.

With the single target rotation from above post being

SS>dev>dev>other

would dropping two points out of improved revenge and putting them in cruelty help with single target threat? And basically ignore revenge or only use to replace dev if rage is tight as Teng said above?

I ask because like the OP, I have had some threat issues as well.

Zegai
07-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Do you have snap aggro issues or midfight threat issues? Those are very different animals; snap aggro can be helped using Golemblood/Recklessness+Shield Block as you pull - it will help mitigate a missed/parried initial shield slam.

If it is midfight, yes, Cruelty will help a bit; Deep Wounds will help more - however, those talents are more for their DPS - they aren't really needed for threat (they do help, but should not be necessary).

Rystrave
07-20-2011, 01:44 PM
Disagreed. Deep Wounds is INCREDIBLY useful. The way I look at it, it creates a bleed effect, which caues DPS ontop of your incoming DPS, thus creating awesome threat.
There's math involved, and since I got a D in most of my math classes I think in simpler terms.

As for Cruelty, there are much better choices for tanking.

jasonbr
07-20-2011, 02:20 PM
Do you have snap aggro issues or midfight threat issues? Those are very different animals; snap aggro can be helped using Golemblood/Recklessness+Shield Block as you pull - it will help mitigate a missed/parried initial shield slam.

If it is midfight, yes, Cruelty will help a bit; Deep Wounds will help more - however, those talents are more for their DPS - they aren't really needed for threat (they do help, but should not be necessary).

I was referring to mid fight. I do have full deep wounds. I will take 2 points out of improved revenge and put those 2 points into cruelty and try that out.

Thanks for the help.

Airowird
07-21-2011, 01:50 AM
For raiding tanks, drop Imp. Revenge, take Cruelty, Thunderstruck or Heavy Repurcussions (in that order for threat).
Imp. Revenge is mostly a heroic tank ability, useful for keeping an add near you. Works especially well with a Glyph of Sunder, so you get the extra dmg on there as well.

pulled
07-21-2011, 03:00 AM
hey,
atm i am only usen 1/3 in shield specialization in current raid heroic content. I don't find ne rage problems. Has the math been done on rev vs dev and where can i find it? i would like to drop imp rev but find it useful on many fights for ae tanken. some that come to mind are the druid boss when he jumps its nice to attack boss and add, Lord R for crazy ae tanking, a lil for rag on p2 adds as well as p2-p3 transition when holding big add next to boss. So its def not a bad thing to have on a raid tank imo but could prob go on some fights. that is if the math/jury is in on dev vs rev.

also keep in mind i run 10 man so the small improvments on dps in these areas plays a big roll.

Airowird
07-21-2011, 05:20 AM
For the complete math, see sig (spreadsheet takes about 3min to fill out, but will tell you about everything you need to know)

Imp Rev is indeed useful for 10m add tanking, but you should be able to do without. On top of that, you lose 10 Rage per block from not taking Shield Spec, rage you could've spent on Cleave, getting that add (and if you glyphed it, another one) some stabs in the face.

If you do prefer Rev for add DPS, I'ld say get atleast the GoSA, it'll help all the melee AoEing it down faster as well. (And apart from the small threat gain from Sunder, you also do more Rev, Cleave & TC damage)

pulled
07-21-2011, 05:40 AM
For the complete math, see sig (spreadsheet takes about 3min to fill out, but will tell you about everything you need to know)

Imp Rev is indeed useful for 10m add tanking, but you should be able to do without. On top of that, you lose 10 Rage per block from not taking Shield Spec, rage you could've spent on Cleave, getting that add (and if you glyphed it, another one) some stabs in the face.

If you do prefer Rev for add DPS, I'ld say get atleast the GoSA, it'll help all the melee AoEing it down faster as well. (And apart from the small threat gain from Sunder, you also do more Rev, Cleave & TC damage)

first, im not familiar with how GoSA works does it give the damage/threat from dev or as u mention just the sunder?

as for the 1/3 shield spec when im tanking a raid boss i dont get rage starved and dont have threat issues. i dont feel that i "loose" 10 rage per block b/c i wasn't gunna use it. If you were gunna throw away the last piece of chicken that you didn't buy, did you loose the chicken or did you save the money you would have spent on it? this is my experience with this spec at least

here's my spec http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kelthuzad/Pulled/advanced i do change it often for dif fights.

Airowird
07-21-2011, 05:59 AM
It's just the Sunder Armor threat, but as said before, it's mostly the armor debuff that makes it worth it.

And what blasphemy are you spouting. Throwing away perfectly fine chicken!!!
Oh, and technicly, Shield spec is also threat, because getting 10 Rage from the talent = 50 threat, while getting rage from getting hit = 0 threat :P
But hey, you came asking to look at your talents, only giving you my opinion.
If you have threat issues with a decent rotation & constant HS spam, you either have some imba DPSers or something else is up.
Couldn't tell you more through forums than what I said above.

PS: If you have no rage issues, why do you have Berserker Rage glyph rather than Commanding?

pulled
07-21-2011, 06:28 AM
I use the berserker rage glyph cuz i do battle shout for our grp and i use it in my pull rotation.

i dont have threat issues and do have imba dps : )

i am always looken for ways to improve my play and thought i would share how i speced to put it under the watchful eye of you gentlemen and perhaps help someone either learn what to do or not to do.

so to be clear for the shield spec talent when i block an attack with max 3/3 i gain 15 rage, and also i gain extra threat from blocking an attack because of the talent? or where you saying that i loose theoretical or potential threat from where i could spend the rage?

if it is so that i loose 50 threat every block how does that loss compare to the 2/2 imp rev gain. or perhaps 2 points elsewhere. assuming no rage issues.

pulled
07-21-2011, 06:41 AM
Just looking at it 50 threat on block
60 percent chance to block
boss swing speed is 2.6
2 whole talent points

perhaps on aoe pulls when im blocking more often but even then that's when i would want imp rev.
i just don't see how you justify taking the talents

edit: ill let you guys do the tps gain math, but all i know is that a baby kitten does more tps then that talent. : )

Tengenstein
07-21-2011, 09:57 AM
so to be clear for the shield spec talent when i block an attack with max 3/3 i gain 15 rage, and also i gain extra threat from blocking an attack because of the talent? or where you saying that i loose theoretical or potential threat from where i could spend the rage?


Blocking an attack produces negligible threat (zero i believe but i could be wrong) however rage is rage, and more rage means more heroic strikes, Heroic strike scales very nicely with vengeance, we want to be in a position that we can use it as often as possible

What portion of your damage is Heroic strike? if it's much below 30% you need more points in Shield spec.

TBH, until you're in a situation that your using HS and IR on CD and still capping rage you need more rage.

Loganisis
07-21-2011, 12:55 PM
Just looking at it 50 threat on block
60 percent chance to block
boss swing speed is 2.6
2 whole talent points

perhaps on aoe pulls when im blocking more often but even then that's when i would want imp rev.
i just don't see how you justify taking the talents

edit: ill let you guys do the tps gain math, but all i know is that a baby kitten does more tps then that talent. : )

Okay, lets say you're in a punching bag fight, Patchwerk style. 60 seconds / 2.86 (because you have the attack speed debuff up to slow the incoming attack swing) = ~21 incoming swings per minute.

Lets assume you have 30% avoidance and 60% block. Leaving roughly 7% more chance for block (with remaining rolled over into crit block when SB is up). Using SB 2x a minute means 20 seconds at 67% chance of block, 40 seconds at 60% chance.

So... those 21 attacks, roughly 7 of them (33%) will come with a 67% block chance (SB up) and 14 with 60%.
7*.67 + 14*.6 = ~4.6+8.3 = 13 blocks per minute.

Roughly 13 blocks per minute * 10 rage = 130 rage. That's 4+ HS or cleaves, or other combinations of talents. That, is a chunk of threat.

Your baby kitten doesn't do more threat than 4 HS.

pulled
07-21-2011, 03:39 PM
So watchen my major domo fight again i literally never missed 1 hs or cleave or never was starved for rage. This goes back to the "thrown away chicken." atm you are trying to sell me a piece of chicken that i know i cannot eat and will throw away when i can get a perfectly good cheesecake for the same price that i will eat. I wont gain 4 hs from this talent.On top of that i feel like this is some of the healers mana regen talents and at some point when they find themselves not going oom on fights its actually a waste for them to spend the points.

Loganisis
07-21-2011, 05:04 PM
So watchen my major domo fight again i literally never missed 1 hs or cleave or never was starved for rage. This goes back to the "thrown away chicken." atm you are trying to sell me a piece of chicken that i know i cannot eat and will throw away when i can get a perfectly good cheesecake for the same price that i will eat. I wont gain 4 hs from this talent.On top of that i feel like this is some of the healers mana regen talents and at some point when they find themselves not going oom on fights its actually a waste for them to spend the points.


TBH, until you're in a situation that your using HS and IR on CD and still capping rage you need more rage.

pulled
07-21-2011, 06:10 PM
hmmm ic how IR changes it. ill test both out tonight to see how it feels.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
07-22-2011, 02:23 AM
Guys I do not uunderstand why revenge has suddenly disappear from your threat rotation. Anybody can explain?

Airowird
07-22-2011, 05:43 AM
Revenge doesn't scale as well with AP as other abilities. As you get more gear, both gear AP (from Strength) and Vengeance AP go way up, making Revenge hit for less than Devastate, even when talented, atleast single-target (it's only use atm is low-rage or as a Cleavenge).

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
07-22-2011, 06:54 AM
At my current gear level (369) the average damage of my revenge is far superioir than the average damage of my Devastate, according to WWS (for a fight with only one target like Baleroc).
When does revenge become less interesting than devastate, in terms of ilvl?

klausi
07-22-2011, 07:14 AM
At my current gear level (369) the average damage of my revenge is far superioir than the average damage of my Devastate, according to WWS (for a fight with only one target like Baleroc).
When does revenge become less interesting than devastate, in terms of ilvl?
Did you take the +20% improved critical strike rating into account? Crits dealing twice the damage PLUS proccing DW and it's ticking for over 1.5k damage on average for me on a fight like Baleroc.

Zegai
07-22-2011, 07:19 AM
Take a look at the Spreadsheet thread, on this same board.

The main reason is due to a combination of the 20% increased critical chance on Devastate and its interaction with Deep Wounds. If you do not have Deep Wounds, I think Revenge is still useful.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
07-22-2011, 08:00 AM
No, I just looked the overall damage for each attack type.
I'll have a more detailed look including deep wounds procs...still curious about that.

Tengenstein
07-22-2011, 08:51 AM
what aspect of deep wounds are you curious about? its pretty much a straight up increased crit damage talent. reagardless having a higher crit rate increases an abilties average damage, if our crits hit for 200% of a hits damage we can average it out so that our crit rate essentiall becomes plus damage, if we deal 100 damage wih an ability and have 20% crit rate wih tat ability, on average the ability will deal 120 damage. in this case Dev hits for 100, and revenge for 115, but becuase revenge has no +crit rate talents it falls behind devastate most of the time.

Devastate does in fact scale worse than Revenge with AP, revenge gets somewhere about 0.31 damage per AP, whereas Dev only gets ~0.25 damage per AP, however unlike revenge Dev also gets a damage increase from the base damge of your weapon, and generally this gives Dev a significant lead until you get some really high AP levels, with a 359 weapon for need ~20K AP, a 365:22k, 372:23.5k, 378 needs 24.7k AP, and a 391 requires a whopping 27k AP for Rev to out do Dev. This is all asuming you have a 2.6 speed weapon.

Kazeyonoma
07-22-2011, 10:19 AM
moved to HALP!