PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Crit block and combat table coverage



Strucker
07-13-2011, 07:47 AM
Lets say I have:
15% Dodge
15% Parry
7% Miss
70% Block
50% Crit. Block (35% effective Crit Block)
(Against a 85 or simplicities sake)

That would give me complete combat table coverage. My question is the excess block that gets pushed off the combat table, would it leave me with 35% effective crit block or 31.5%?

Essentially once your unhittable, does reg block get pushed off the combat table before crit block?

Bigbad
07-13-2011, 08:18 AM
Crit block isn't on the combat table just block. Once you block there is another roll to determine if its a regular or crit block (2 roll system). So you would end up with 37% avoidance 63% block of which 50% would be critical blocks.
One small thing is that during shieldblock the excess block would count towards extra crit block. So shieldblock would give 32% crit block in your example.

Loganisis
07-13-2011, 09:31 AM
Lets say I have:
15% Dodge (pre diminishing returns)
15% Parry (pre diminishing returns)
5% Miss
55% Block w/ 50% of those blocks being crit block (if you have 50% crit block - I don't know off the top of my head how much you'd have)
(Against a 88 because that's what matters)

Corrected

I moved it to 88s because thats where theory-crafting happens. Honestly, no one cares about 85s and because of the way the level differences scale, it will give you an inaccurate picture of reality.

***

Once you are block-capped - to answer the question...

I believe (and I could be wrong), the priority is:

Boss Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Boss Normal hit
Boss Crit Hit

You talent out boss Crit Hit
At 102.4% you push Boss normal hit from the table
Above 102.4%, you push block off the table - so you'd want to reforge away from mastery into dodge/parry, taking into account the increasing DR on dodge/parry to make sure you stay above 102.4%.

Tengenstein
07-13-2011, 10:38 AM
the number on the character sheet is post diminishing returns (when you mouse over and it says Parry rating of X give y% before dimisnihsing returns is telling you how muchit gives before diminishing returns). then you have to just tag on the Bosses Block/avoidance/miss supression of 0.6% for each entry left on combat table

Quinafoi
07-13-2011, 11:54 AM
Combat table events are driven off of the attackers attack skill versus the defenders defense skill which is derived by level difference. You lose 0.2% to each of these stats per level the attacker is higher than yourself. So against a raid boss which is always valued at player level + 3, you would have 0.6% taken away from Miss, Dodge, Parry, and Block. Additionally, they gain chance to for Critical Hit at the same rate of 0.2% per level.

Avoidance factors come before attack factors. The melee combat table in order of priority is as follows.

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Critical Hit
Crushing Hit
Normal Hit

The total of all events is equal to 100%.

Avoidance Events
Miss Rate = 5%, +2% if Night Elf
Dodge Rate = % Dodge from character sheet (post deminishing returns)
Parry Rate = % Parry from character sheet (post deminishing returns)
Block Rate = % Block from character sheet (block is not subject to deminishing returns, however as the first event pushed off the table has a variable hard cap)

Attack Events
Critical Hit = 5%
Crushing Hit = 0%
Normal Hit = 100% of whatever remains.

You have talents which reduce chance to be Critically Hit by 6%. So this a raid boss at player level plus three will have a 5.6% chance to crit which after your talents will be 0%. We can remove crit from the possible events. Additionally, Crushing Blows only apply when there is a level difference of four or more levels and since a raid boss is only three levels higher this will also be 0% and can be removed from the table. Leaving you with the following more simplified table.

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Normal Hit



Alright, so now to your example.

7% Miss
15% Dodge (from character sheet)
15% Parry (from character sheet)
70% Block
100% Normal Hit

Against a raid boss, all amounts are reduced by 0.6% so we get:

6.4% Miss
14.4% Dodge
14.4% Parry
69.4% Block
100% Normal Hit

Now, there is a functional cap on the combat table of 100%, you actually take away events at the end of the order. How this process works is you sum up the values from top to bottom. Once you exceed 100%, anything above 100% is removed from the events. As a result of this we get the following:

6.4% Miss
14.4% Dodge
14.4% Parry
64.8% Block (4.6% of Block was beyond 100%)
0% Normal Hit (You are "unhitable".)

As for critical block mechanic, this is a secondary roll that occurs as you can only critically block something that was actually blocked. Assuming you had 50% chance to critically block, you expected amount of critical blocks in this case would be 32.4%.

So if you were to look at a parse of combat against a raid boss you'd expect to see numbers trend towards the following...

6.4% Miss
14.4% Dodge
14.4% Parry
64.8% Block (32.4% Critical, 32.4% Normal)
0% Normal Hit

Bare in mind all of these mechanics are random. As the number of swings goes to infinity you'd expect it to trend closer and closer to these numbers, however in the limited scope of combat of a single boss encounter there can be more variance.

Fetzie
07-13-2011, 04:20 PM
As far as I know, only excess block generated when Shield Block is active gets converted to critical block, if SB is not active excess block is "wasted".

Selendis
07-14-2011, 12:05 AM
I hate to be a prat, but considering people have provided conflicting info, I have to ask.

Do we have a source for any of this, or is it just speculation?

Tengenstein
07-14-2011, 02:06 AM
In game observations of thousands of logs

Loganisis
07-14-2011, 07:56 AM
As far as I know, only excess block generated when Shield Block is active gets converted to critical block, if SB is not active excess block is "wasted".

This is what I thought as well. Mastery gives you 1.5% block and 1.5% crit block per 1 mastery (179.X mastery rating). It doesn't talk about rolling over, just Shield Block. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=76857

****

The difference between 100% and 102.4% is a matter of perspective. Since a raid boss is 3 levels higher than you, it's slightly harder to be fully block-capped (unhittable). But from the raid bosses perspective, probability is a range from 0 - 1 (0% - 100%). That part isn't contradictory, it's just the truth from a different point of view :D

The difference between 5 and 7% boss miss is looking at night elf versus all other races. I haven't looked at stats against 85s in a long time because that's not important to me, so I made what probably an erroneous assumption there changing from 7% to 5%.

What exactly do you see as being contradictory? Just if mastery 'overflow' gives crit block?

Quinafoi
07-14-2011, 08:05 AM
I corrected the critical block numbers to reflect no overflow in my original post. That piece of the puzzle I didn't have a full understanding of. Thanks for the correction.

Selendis
07-14-2011, 08:55 AM
What exactly do you see as being contradictory? Just if mastery 'overflow' gives crit block?

well yes, excacly. Would have a pretty heavy effect on gear selection down the line... But re-reading the thread I don't know where I found the opposing oppinion... I need to stop doing this before I go to bed.

Regarding the actual topic, it was actually answered in the first response. the 2-roll system means that whatever you don't avoid will be blocked, and the crit block would be a percentage of that. In the OP

avoidance = 7+15+15 = 37%
70% block chance --> 100-37 = 67 actual chance to block
35% crit block would yield 67*0,35 = 23,45% of attacks were critical blocks

wether or not the numbers are realistic is somewhat irrelevant, that is how it would work.

and yes, if those values are pulled from character sheet, you need to subtract something, as people have already explained thoroughly.

Strucker
07-14-2011, 11:28 AM
Well I'm grateful for all the replys, Bigbad answered the question I had in his first response. I just wanted to know if the block mechanic used a 2-roll system when determining a critical block. That has an effect on the relative value of Mastery post block cap.

swelt
07-16-2011, 04:31 AM
There's a neat little addon for making this more visual in game: http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/visual-combat-table.aspx

pulled
07-21-2011, 03:23 AM
so did we confirm mastery past uninhabitable will not effect crit block and will in fact be wasted stats? so wars prob gear either to stam or parry/dodge post block cap?

Selendis
07-21-2011, 04:15 AM
1 Mastery provides 1.5% Block chance and 1,5% Crit Block Chance
I don't think anyone has suggested the 1,5% crit block disappears at some point, but the first half will be wasted over cap.

Fetzie
07-21-2011, 04:38 AM
Well you kind of have a few soft caps.

One at 77.4% where shield block will give you full CTC.
One at 102.4% where mastery will only grant crit block chance (passive full CTC).

Then I guess there are two hypothetical caps that I doubt it is ever going to be possible to reach.

Shield block grants 100% critical block chance (thus temporarily hard-capping mastery)
100% critical block chance without SB (the actual hard cap at which point more mastery rating grants no further benefit)

Airowird
07-21-2011, 04:47 AM
The caps Pyrea mentions are 33.34 Mastery (50% crit block) and 66.67 Mastery (guaranteed crit blocks).
But there is simply no theoretical reason to go that far. Once you hit CTC Mastery takes a nose dive in usefulness.
The 50% crit is technicly possible, if you have 30% full avoidances and 70% block. But you'ld need gear set that has tons of Mastery on every item, including trinkets and gem/enchant everything with pure mastery, which is not optimal overall. (Or possible I believe, considering the current itemization)

Fetzie
07-21-2011, 05:51 AM
Just for reference, 33.34 MAS is about 6000 Mastery rating, 66.67 MAS is nearly 12000 mastery rating.

WiiMote
07-24-2011, 09:03 PM
Because of the way critical block is calculated, mastery only gets better the more you get of it. The following is ignoring block from other sources:

Assuming you've got 10% block from mastery, you'd also have 10% critical block. At this point you've got 10% of your block chance to critically block, which is an overall 1% chance to critically block, and 9% chance for a regular block. Underwhelming, right?

At 20%, we've got a 4% chance to critically block, and a 16% chance to block. Our critical block went up by 3%, and the regular block by 7%.

At 30%, there's a 9% chance to critically block, and a 21% chance to block. Both our critical block and regular block chance increased by an additional 5%. This is where things get really great...

At 40%, there's a 16% chance to critically block, and a 24% chance to block. Our critical block chance went up by a whopping 7%, while the block chance only went up by 3%.

At the 50% point, the percentage chance to critically block starts eating up your chance to block. Your chance to critically block continues to climb, but your chance to block starts shrinking on your blocking table. In other words, when comparing critical block and block at this point, both at 25%, the critical block % continues going up at an increasing rate beyond this point, but the block chance shrinks. The "blocking table", though, is a separate entity from the regular avoidance table altogether. Critical block doesn't push block off of your avoidance table, it's only calculated on a successful block.

Any mastery beyond the 30% mark is more beneficial for your critical block chance than regular block, just looking at the block chance from the mastery alone. You've also got to consider that your critical block chance is based off of your overall block (you get 20% chance to block just for having a shield and being a tank).

Being at the 102.4% unhittable point is just another soft cap, and mastery continues being a prot warrior's best stat as far as I can see.Remember that the "wasted" block is still factored in when calculating for critical block, so the math gets slightly more complicated at that point.

Steakdinner
07-26-2011, 11:48 PM
Something I'm wondering, the proc from "Hold the Line" is it additive or multiplicative? I've got a few macros to tell me my crit block % and some other things. Including the macros in case anyone is interested.

For calculating crit block % and hold the line (if it's multiplicative):

/run local b,m,c,h=GetBlockChance(),GetMastery() c=(m*1.5/100)*b h=(m*1.5+10)*b/100 ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Critical Block Chance: %.2f%% Hold The Line Critblock: %.2f%%",c,h))

For calculating crit block % and the amount of extra crit block given when I pop shield block:

/run local b,m,p,d,c,s=GetBlockChance(),GetMastery(),GetParry Chance(),GetDodgeChance() c=(m*1.5/100)*b s=b+p+d+5-100 ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Critical Block Chance: %.2f%% SBlockSpill: %.2f%%",c,s))

edeesis
07-27-2011, 12:05 AM
I'm pretty sure it adds 10% to whatever amount you get from mastery.

Airowird
07-27-2011, 05:38 AM
It's additive

Quinafoi
07-27-2011, 08:57 AM
Something I'm wondering, the proc from "Hold the Line" is it additive or multiplicative? I've got a few macros to tell me my crit block % and some other things. Including the macros in case anyone is interested.

For calculating crit block % and hold the line (if it's multiplicative):

/run local b,m,c,h=GetBlockChance(),GetMastery() c=(m*1.5/100)*b h=(m*1.5+10)*b/100 ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Critical Block Chance: %.2f%% Hold The Line Critblock: %.2f%%",c,h))

For calculating crit block % and the amount of extra crit block given when I pop shield block:

/run local b,m,p,d,c,s=GetBlockChance(),GetMastery(),GetParry Chance(),GetDodgeChance() c=(m*1.5/100)*b s=b+p+d+5-100 ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Critical Block Chance: %.2f%% SBlockSpill: %.2f%%",c,s))

Your second function only calculates s against equal level mobs and the calculation appears to be quite off.

I don't think I can fit it all into one macro correctly including functional capping logic, if I stripped away some of the capping logic I could though.

I'm not in game right now so I can't validate the syntax.


/run b,c=GetBlockChance()-0.6,GetMastery()*0.015 if c>1 then c=1 end o=b+GetParryChance()+GetDodgeChance()-96.8 if o>0 then b=b-o end ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("CBlock: %.2f%%",b*c))
There is your critical block chance against a raid boss (assuming not a Night Elf).


/run b,c=GetBlockChance()-0.6,GetMastery()*0.015 o=b+GetParryChance()+GetDodgeChance()-71.8 if o<0 then o=0 end if o>25 then b=b-(o-25) o=25 end x=c+(o/100) if x>1 then x=1 end s=b+(25-o) ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("CBlock w/SB: %.2f%%",s*x))
There is your critical block chance with shield block against a raid boss (again assuming not a Night Elf).

To modify these to fit a night elf you'd change the overflow calculation's substracted constant by 2 less (94.8 and 69.8).

Steakdinner
07-30-2011, 11:25 PM
The crit block difference wasn't all that huge between reg and raid bosses, .23% difference. I do appreciate the provided macro though.

Quinafoi
07-31-2011, 08:15 AM
The crit block difference wasn't all that huge between reg and raid bosses, .23% difference. I do appreciate the provided macro though.

I'm not sure what to make of that first part. Your calculation wasn't just missing the level difference. It wasn't calculating the caps and enforcing them correctly. You see all those "if" statements in my macros? Those are enforcing functional caps. Like the overflow of shield block can't exceed the value of shield block (if you were passively unhittable).

Steakdinner
08-01-2011, 12:59 AM
If you were passively unhittable wouldn't it still spill over into critical block chance?

Fetzie
08-01-2011, 02:48 AM
If you were passively unhittable wouldn't it still spill over into critical block chance?

Block only gets converted to Critical Block when you use Shield Block, if that is what you mean.

Quinafoi
08-01-2011, 08:04 AM
More specifically, only the portion from Shield Block. So if you were passively unhittable you would only gain 25% critical block from Shield Block. In the case of your calculation, if you were passively unhittable you'd allow for increasing critical block chance by more than 25%. Only the overflow from Shield Block is converted.

Crit chance is functionally bound to not exceed 100%. You can not critically block more than 100% of your blocked attacks.

Block chance is functionally bound to combat table coverage. (Assuming on a 100% scale) If you have 30% avoidance, you can only have 70% block. If you have 35% avoidance, now your cap on block is 65%.

Shield Block increases can increase one (passively unhittable, or not unhittable even with Shield Block), both (unhittable only with Shield Block), or neither (mastery hard capped) block and critical block depending on the values in question. How much of Shield Block counts towards block and how much counts towards critical block are both parts of the calculation. When calculating the effect of Shield Block you need to calculate how that 0% to 25% is distributed is to which stat.

Those are the types of calculations I'm doing. Enforcing combat rules and calculating the distribution of Shield Block. Not just shifting the target level to that of a raid boss.

Airowird
08-01-2011, 09:50 AM
I'll make it even easier:

1 Mastery give 1.5% Block & 1.5% crit block at all times, even if it is wasted.

SB gives you up to 25% block chance, untill it fills out the combat table the moment it is activated.
After that, it also gives you crit block = 50% - (block chance given above).

That means that if you activate SB 1s before Windwalk runs out, you'll only be Unhittable for 1s!

Quinafoi
08-01-2011, 10:10 AM
Didn't they remove the doubled effect of Shield Block a while ago so that only the portion of the 25% that was overflow would be converted to Critical Block? Meaning Shield Block can only increase Critical Block chance by a value between 0% and 25%?

Airowird
08-01-2011, 11:55 AM
Oh, you're totally right!!

/sigh
That means I need to adjust all my Mastery value calculations .... WTB old buff back please :P

Prydain
08-23-2011, 12:27 PM
Alright so from what I read here it looks like the only way to increase your Critical Block chance once your unhittable is by using Shield Block. But what about 4pc t12 (6% static parry) and Winwalk proc (~3.4% dodge before DR)?

I will use 100% rather than 102.4% for simplicity. 30% Avoidance, 70% Block Chance (50% from mastery). When I have the 6% parry from 4pc t12, my stats shift to 36% avoidance and 64% block chance. There would be 2 situations:

A) My crit block chance stays the same regardless of avoidance procs (4pc t12, windwalk), while block chance gets reduced meaning that the best case scenario is Shield Block -> 4pc t12 -> Windwalk -> repeat.
If this is true, does it mean the baseline 20% block is what gets pushed off the table before affecting the block from mastery?
B) Both crit block and block gets reduced by the same amount (-3% block, -3% crit block).

Once unhittable is it still viable to keep stacking mastery? Or is it conclusive that mastery hits a stop at unhittable?

PS. I did not include Hold the Line procs.

Quinafoi
08-23-2011, 01:02 PM
Neither of your cases is correct. The Critical Block chance doesn't get altered, however the total amount of Critical Blocks does because it is a double roll system. For example if you have 50% Critical Block chance at 70% Block, then 35% of attacks are Critically Blocked (50% of 70%). If you suddenly decrease Block by 6% because of an increase in avoidance pushing it off the table you would have 64% Block but still 50% Critical Block which results in 32% of attacks being Critically Blocked (50% of 64%).

Prydain
08-23-2011, 01:09 PM
Does this mean that stacking mastery past unhittable is not viable anymore? I'm trying to see what to gear for once I reach unhittable, but from what you said it looks like I need to start stacking avoidance and decrease my mastery as I get more gear past unhittable.

Bigbad
08-23-2011, 01:16 PM
Its A you'll have 36% avoidance 70% block (of which 6% is useless but still there) and 50% crit block. Only way to increase crit block is mastery.

Mastery is still viable after unhittable but avoidance is slightly better. Mastery is about 0,31% damage reduction while avoidance is around 0,37%.
Things to keep in mind though that the value of avoidance will drop slowly through diminishing returns and through increasing amounts of critical block, since an avoided hit will replace a block at that point and the block will have an average damage reduction of 31% * (1+critblock). Value of mastery will drop once you hit 100% crit block during shieldblock but we won't reach that this tier maybe next one.
Another thing to keep in mind that mastery will effect more hits then avoidance so its better in smoothing out the damage even if the average damage reduction might be slightly smaller at that point, mastery with 67% block will affect 1% of the attacks while avoidance will affect about 0,7% (depending on the diminishing returns) of the attacks.

MATH:
Assumptions: 35% avoidance, 67,4% block, HtL uptime 50%, DR on avoidance 0,7 & eternal metagem.

47,4% crit block + 5% from HtL, average block 31%*(1+0,524)=47,244%
If you want to include shieldblock which isn't necessary the best option but might be insightful.
47,4% crit block + 5% from HtL + 9,1% from shieldblock, average block 31%*(1+0,615)=50,065%
Avoidance: (1 - average block) * DR
without shieldblock: (1 - 0,47)*0,7=0,371
with shieldblock: (1 - 0,5)*0,7=0,35
Block: 1,5% crit block * block * 0,31 (difference between regular block 31% and crit block 62%)
1,5* 67,4%*0,31=0,313

Small note: shieldblock can give more then 25% crit block it gives (CTC-75%) crit block, using 27,4%/3 in the calculations.