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View Full Version : DPS Having trouble with Beth's adds....



Tielyn
07-12-2011, 11:12 AM
Okay, I haven't seen a thread for this one yet, so here goes.

Our DPS is having serious trouble getting the little adds down before they get to the drone, so the drone doesn't go down. I'm hiding in the southwest corner like people suggest, and between the medium spiders continuously coming down and spitting on people and little adds coming from all different directions, inevitably two or three get through, which heals the drone to full since everyone is trying to take down the little adds.

I'm not sure what we're doing wrong as it seems to be snafu city at the moment, enough to where we decided that trying to play with Shannox and Rhyolith is a better deal.

We've tried:
1) kiting the drone, but there's nowhere to run when the spiders are coming in from all directions.
2) 3 dedicated damage teams on 25 man, one per each entry, but then no team gets all their spiders down.
3) Clumping everyone up near the southwest and bottlenecking the spiders, but then the medium spiders nail people from a distance, and they keep coming, so we wind up getting overwhelmed by them as well.
4) Zergburning the drone. Doesn't work.

Our raid loadout on the ranged tends to be 2 hunters, one boomkin, two shadow priests, and two or three mages, and maybe one warlock. We have no DK these days, and we have spare tanks we can throw at the adds if need be.

I love my guildies. They're great people. I'd rather not point my finger at the DPS to step it up if there's a strategy that we're not getting, but it's entirely possible that this is a gear/skill check we're not meeting yet. What's the average DPS your ranged DPS should be showing to burn the spiders in time?

Thanks in advance...

feralminded
07-12-2011, 11:32 AM
If you are putting yourself as far away as possible then you're doing all you can. Your ranged is failing you somehow. The classes you've listed are about as good as any (better than some) at this so it's really on them to get it together.

Tielyn
07-12-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm setting myself up just to the left of the entrance, which is the farthest point away from the spawn point to the right of the entrance and the one on the west wall. I've also noticed that the first drone seems to always pop up from the westernmost point, so there may well be a pattern there that we can capture if I can get a 10's group to go practice a little bit, but the first group of little spiders ends up coming in from that side as well, and the group after it comes from the point to the right of the entrance, so it's probably not much help.

-Tielyn

feralminded
07-12-2011, 11:52 AM
I wish I could give you specifics for 25 but I've only completed the fight on 10. On 10 the drone has a fixed spawn point (on the west side ... so I suspect it may be the same as 25) and the spiderlings come out from the 3 tunnels. We have 2 RDPS killing the tunnel and they have a reasonable time of it although our elemental shaman is decidedly bad at it just due to class design. Our druid and hunter and mages all have an easy go at it and I usually don't have to do anything too fancy with the drone.

Loganisis
07-12-2011, 12:49 PM
How many slows are your range using? Shroom slow fields, frost mage blizzards, hunter traps, any other AoE slows. It's going to be difficult for some raids at first to get all the adds down if they aren't slowed and I haven't seen that mentioned.

Tielyn
07-12-2011, 01:22 PM
Odds on, not enough. I'm looking at our logs now for that, and I'm only seeing one blizzard and a handful of Frost Novas cast between both Arcane mages on all 8 attempts. These fellas feel that Blizzard isn't effective versus its mana cost/damage, and think that single target DPS is better for them to do. The hunters are using their Ice traps at least, and the Boomkin is using Typhoon, but she's not spec'd into Slow Mushrooms. (*minor grumble, since both raid leads told everyone 'use any slows you have'.. but we also told them to burn the little spiders ASAP*)

However, that doesn't stop the other problem of the Spinners nuking everyone in sight and making it hard for the healers to keep up. If we taunt them down fast, they eat the people taunting (we also had the hunters taunting the spiders down, which probably didn't help matters on the slow) since the tanks can't taunt them down fast enough.

feralminded
07-12-2011, 01:34 PM
Well arcane isn't really all that good for this. They should at least be fire for DPS or frost for slows depending on your needs. You NEED, with a capital N, slows on the adds. There's a lot of sources of them but each tunnel will NEED at least 1 in 25 man ... if only to make your AoE more efficient.

Loganisis
07-12-2011, 01:50 PM
Put one arcane on the hanging spiders to nuke them down. Or a spec with poor AoE.

10m is probably different from 25m, but we had 2 people I think assigned to spinners on 25m that would then switch to drones.

Bung
07-13-2011, 05:00 AM
It's very important to know that the little spiderlings come out of 3 specific places. The SW corner is the only spot to take the drone and tank it. My guild makes this process even easier because we don't send any dps up to get the boss below 100%. We have found that although it's harder on the healers in the last phase that having all dps kill the spiders down below is the key to this boss. We also have all classes with a a taunt help get the hanging spiders down quickly so we can kill them off fast and get into position. Try marking 3 players and assigning them to the corners where the spiderlings spawn. Make sure you have slows in each group, a solid aoe dps or two, and burn them down.

Tielyn
07-14-2011, 12:25 PM
Yep. That's what we tried doing -- I assigned teams of three, two with one hunter apiece and the third with the boomkin. The teams reported that sometimes one team would be hanging around and doing nothing while the other team was being overwhelmed, so that's why we went with the bottleneck plan. One of the hunters told me that he runs out of focus before he can down his group, and some of our people are getting eaten by the spinners because they taunt them down and then they get munched. Think it may be a learning curve (this was our first night on the fight, after all) that we may send a 10s group in on the weekends to get more experience on it. I'm also going to suggest to the mage who is at least properly spe'cd Frost to go play with it again....

Thanks for the advice, folks.

feralminded
07-14-2011, 12:30 PM
One of the hunters told me that he runs out of focus before he can down his group Tell him to cobra sting the drones ... it's key to doing hunter "right".

Tielyn
07-18-2011, 10:36 AM
10 man is worlds easier to learn this than 25. (Probably rightly so.) This time around we took a properly spec'd and skilled boomkin (she's learning really fast that mushrooms are FUN) and between the ret pally, one of the two warlocks we brought using Shadowfury(?), and the boomkin slowing things down noticably, we managed to get through an entire drone phase and downed the drone just in time for a second drone to pop up. The thing holding us back this weekend was that we were also training a new tank and healer up top, so our best attempts ended when Beth would munch the healer because the tank fell down or didn't make it up fast enough.

Nice thing is that one of our Arcane mages was listening in on the fight -- and decided to respec frost. Even asked for a demo of what a properly spec'd frost mage could do for crowd control -- which I was very happy to show off my old PvP/PvE leveling skills on some known crowd mobs in Thundermar. And the ret pally saw how much fun the boomkin was having, and she decided to respec her boomkin alt to Magic Mushroom Mode as well.

Things are looking up. One of the really good things we've done is we finally got a system of markers/callouts working -- 'spiderlings, nacho, front left' 'spiderlings, diamond, back right' and we redirect our fire team over there.

Some added questions though --

1) the spinners (yellow) spiders are running loose and eating people (mostly the healers) when they're on the ground, and spitting on people when they're hanging. We have one DPS assigned to bring them down and kill them, but it's a really big room and we're split in two directions (the drone in the SW corner and the group killing spiderlings) so it's hard for the healers to keep up. Do you leave the spiders hanging until you need them, or do you just kill them as soon as they show up?

2) Do the ziplines appear (and become rideable) when they are taunted down, or when the spinners die? Has anyone else noticed that the lines are different speeds? Somehow our tank caught his line first, said in Vent he was going up, the healer clicked his line, and the healer arrived first and got munched.

3) Does anyone else use a strategy of keeping the drone closer to the middle and just sliding it towards an appropriate corner when spiderlings appear so that the groups aren't split up so badly? We were going to try it on our last attempt, but the top team messed up on the initial pull. Having the drone in the SW corner all the time splits our two healers up and does a serious number on mana.

Thanks again for all your help.
-Tielyn

Theotherone
07-18-2011, 11:29 AM
10 man is worlds easier to learn this than 25. (Probably rightly so.) so our best attempts ended when Beth would munch the healer because the tank fell down or didn't make it up fast enough.

-Tielyn

Thank God, I'm not the only one this happens to.

Loganisis
07-18-2011, 12:44 PM
Vent/Mumble/whateve is key for the up team. In ours, the tank shouts when he goes up, healers wait for that, and DPS wait for healers. That's the easiest part of the fight, since at that point everyone's just sitting around waiting.

The hardest part of the fight, imo, is AoE getting the spiderlings down, especially the ones at the end of the third up period, so Beth has the fewest stacks when the burn phase starts.

Quinafoi
07-18-2011, 01:04 PM
A simple fact many people seem to neglect... you don't have to be Balance to use Wild Mushrooms. I don't think many people realize how much damage a Restoration Druid can do with Wild Mushrooms, provided they use them correctly.

Jericho
07-19-2011, 04:16 AM
Some added questions though --

1) the spinners (yellow) spiders are running loose and eating people (mostly the healers) when they're on the ground, and spitting on people when they're hanging. We have one DPS assigned to bring them down and kill them, but it's a really big room and we're split in two directions (the drone in the SW corner and the group killing spiderlings) so it's hard for the healers to keep up. Do you leave the spiders hanging until you need them, or do you just kill them as soon as they show up?

Not a 25 man raider anymore, but I can at least answer these questions. New spinners come out between each "Down" Phase for the "UP team". So the more spinners you leave out to just beat on you the more damage your raid will take. Taunting/Frost Shocking/Gripping them down and having your melee kill them after your UP team has gone up top is an option. In our 10s we simply have our hunter dedicated to killing spinners. While our Boomkin and our Mage (who respecs fire because of blastwave as well as all the fun fire spreading stuff) kill all the babies. If the casters are in real need of help, the hunter helps them. But mostly his priority is to kill the spinners after the UP team goes up top.


2) Do the ziplines appear (and become rideable) when they are taunted down, or when the spinners die? Has anyone else noticed that the lines are different speeds? Somehow our tank caught his line first, said in Vent he was going up, the healer clicked his line, and the healer arrived first and got munched.

The ziplines appear shortly after the spinners land on the ground. Whether they are dead from ranged or taunted down by someone (we have our holy paladin, Dk tank and pally tank taunt 3 down from the UP team). Our tank taunts his down and immediately goes up while leaving the spinner on the ground for the melee to kill. Our holy pally does the same and goes up as soon as the tank is halfway up his line. Either way, your healer should always wait when going up top the first time. After that, Beth retains her threat table and if your tank is on his line she should target him to attack.


3) Does anyone else use a strategy of keeping the drone closer to the middle and just sliding it towards an appropriate corner when spiderlings appear so that the groups aren't split up so badly? We were going to try it on our last attempt, but the top team messed up on the initial pull. Having the drone in the SW corner all the time splits our two healers up and does a serious number on mana.

I wish I could speak to this. In our 10, while our DK tank sits him in the SW corner for a lot of the fight, he does tend to kite him a lot. Since in 10 man only one spiderling tunnel spawns at a time, it is much easier to kite. I will be honest though, my thoughts on the subject would lead me to ask once again about your DPS's actual numbers on the spiderlings. It sounds like things are getting better, but overall your dps just sounds like it is a bit low at this point. You spoke of moving on to shannox or rhyolith and letting some of your DPS gear up a bit. Is that still an option? Shannox is an utter joke as long as you have the raid awareness that was drummed into us since Vanilla (do not stand in stuff). The Steering and Volcano debuff stacking changes have made Rhyolith into a much less difficult encounter. Baleroc is also a pretty straight forward encounter. All of which may be easier with slightly subpar AOE DPS, where Bethilac may not be.

Tielyn
07-25-2011, 11:55 AM
Theotherone --

The UP tank needs to realize two things --
1) meteors are the same color as the web, and if they hit you, not only do they do damage, they drop you through the hole. Our MT fails at moving out of stuff, though. :| We alleviated the problem by sending a backup tank up there with them.
2) Beth starts with a ton of healing aggro by the time the MT gets up there, so he/she needs to make a macro to /tar Beth and then taunt. I spam that when I'm the top tank, and the healer stopped dying.

Quinafoi -
Already ahead of you on that. Since the boomkin loves to demo her mushrooms, the other druids have been getting in on the fun(gi) stunt; we pre-load up a field before a pull starts and we're training the tanks to pull over the mushrooms.

Jericho:
*salutes* That was EXACTLY the information I was looking for, as it makes a lot more sense out of the chaos oghods spiders everywhere problem. Sounds like a sounder strategy is:

1,2) Have the UP team taunt stuff down and then forget it. Go up to stop the spinners from spawning. Have a dedicated team to gather up the spinners that are down and wipe 'em up.
What we were doing wrong: We were taunting the spinners down, and then killing them before going up, which meant sometimes the first zip line would disappear, meaning the tank wouldn't be able to go up. Meanwhile, I'd told everyone to put a taunt on their bar and pull down spiders ASAP, which meant there were spinners going after everyone and anyone, and then the spiderlings would show up from two different directions and overwhelm us.

3) Our problem on our 'better' attempts was more that one of the DPS assigned to spiderlings had decided on his own that he wanted to go help down the drone, and he switched targets without telling me he was doing it, leaving the boomkin (who was mostly doing CC/slow) and the ret pally to do it. The ret pally was taking a ton of damage from the spiderlings as they were killing them, and if the ret pally went down, the boomkin wasn't enough to do it on her own since the OT kept moving the drone, and sometimes the mushrooms weren't in the right place after the OT moved.

Overall, our DPS average is a bit lower than the WoL baseline, but we're more of a 'heal through it' kind of guild -- we spend a bit learning the fight while staying alive, then we get to hitting the enrage timer, and then we subtract healers until we down it. This is a gear check for sure, and some of us aren't quite up to speed -- on Rhyolith, we only had 5 melee that day, and we were having a lot of trouble turning the boss, but the ranged DPS and 'new' tank were also having trouble gathering up and downing the adds. (And the MT dragged the big add through the raid. :|) I'm not even going to -try- Shannox with our MT who doesn't know how to mobility tank -- I'll save it for when me and the other feral tank who -do- mobility tanking can do it on a Sunday (we went a couple of weeks ago, and had it down cold by the time we had to break).

We didn't get to go back this week, because the 25 man teams failed to down the end bosses due to various Things Going Wrong on Thursday and Friday, and running out of time on Saturday after playing with Rhyolith first. So I took my handpicked Sunday/10s team and pulled off the hat trick of downing all three without too much trouble, while training our just-back-from-working-on-a-Navy-ship tank on the right way to rotate Nef.

This weekend, mebbe it'll be different...if I know my other raid leaders, they'll want to extend the raid lockout to just do Al'Akir, Nef, and Cho', then work on Flan trash for the remainder of the week.

Will keep you posted.

-Tielyn

Theotherone
07-25-2011, 12:00 PM
Theotherone --

The UP tank needs to realize two things --
1) meteors are the same color as the web, and if they hit you, not only do they do damage, they drop you through the hole. Our MT fails at moving out of stuff, though. :| We alleviated the problem by sending a backup tank up there with them.
2) Beth starts with a ton of healing aggro by the time the MT gets up there, so he/she needs to make a macro to /tar Beth and then taunt. I spam that when I'm the top tank, and the healer stopped dying.

-Tielyn

While did kill Shannox (our first FL kill) Beth still evades us; although the up tank and I were not the ones screwing up, we kept going up and down (okay we fell a couple of times, or going back up we didn't taunt new webs and one would disappear), by and large is was the downstairs failing. I pst'd my tank and said "glad it's not us screwing up this week" he replied "I was thinking the same thing."

artie
07-26-2011, 04:13 AM
I have only done this on ten man, but one thing that helped us immensely, that i didn't see mentioned, is having a stack point for the ranged dps and healers on the bottom. This helps the bottom healers be able to use big aoe heals for raid members who aren't in the brunt of spider city.

We also had all the hanging spinners taunted and kited to the bottom tank (prot warr, whose vig was especially handy for the taunt) to pick up for aoe burn, as well as small spawn points marked for calls and necessary corresponding tank kite, slows, and aoe burn (these ideas were mentioned)

Having the top dps stay down to help mop up extras after devastate before going back up or staying down period after first may help to keep things under control until burn phase. We had top dps up until first devastate only on our kill.

swelt
07-26-2011, 07:19 AM
I'm hiding in the southwest corner like people suggest, and between the medium spiders continuously coming down and spitting on people and little adds coming from all different directions, inevitably two or three get through, which heals the drone to full since everyone is trying to take down the little adds.

We found it very inefficient to tank in the far corner, and instead tank the drone much closer to the middle. This makes it a lot easier for the drone tank to taunt dangling spiders, and for DPS to switch between killing spiderlings and then back to the drone (cuts back on movement time). In 25 man, we assign 3 teams of 3, including at least 1 with a AOE slow (hunter > shaman > other stuff), one to each of the 3 spiderling spawn locations. We leave a couple of melee on the drones 100% (but with instructions to finish off any straggling spidering they see getting through).

feralminded
07-26-2011, 07:30 AM
Yeah you want to be in range of your range so they can put some spare DPS on the drones. Also if you have any melee that are particularly good at cleaves (i.e. combat rogues) then have them on drones as well as they will easily chew up the spiderlings. Once your AoE gets good at their job this fight becomes very trivial. Focus on getting their DPS IQ up because as a tank the best you can do is keep the drones from spitting on the raid and keep everything in a convenient pile near the middle.