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tuckerhcool
07-05-2011, 10:07 PM
Armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ursin/dethbysnusnu/simple

I am confused about the mechanics of rage and dodge. Rage builds only by being hit, by dealing damage, or by using certain abilities. Druid's dodge inherently causes us to loose rage generation. Currently on my druid I am at 30% dodge in bear form. I seem to have times where I dodge most of the dmg done to me and intern not able to keep up optimal threat against DPS. Every where I read and every druid tank I is stacking dodge as much as possible; I cant help but to wonder if I am just doing something wrong or do other druid tanks balance the lack of rage out with something that I am missing.

I have tried Stacking Expertise and Hit to increase threat. It seemed to help until ZA/ZG level DPS. Now it seems that the dodge is the issue.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Bovinity
07-06-2011, 11:14 AM
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=57880 <-- Makes up for some of the lost rage from dodging.

Generally you won't have any issues with rage generation anyway. Short of just spamming Maul constantly, you should find yourself pretty much overflowing with it on any fight that's worth worrying about.

tuckerhcool
07-06-2011, 10:43 PM
So stacking more dodge might solve my rage issue but that would mean that I loose some expertise or hit... Which I'm currently at 6.89% hit and 29 expertise. What would you all suggest I trade for dodge? I am thinking that geming agility instead dodge would help with my dps but I'll loose alot of my dodge rating that way.

klausi
07-07-2011, 03:03 PM
Do you mark your targets or generally assign a killing order? Do you CC mobs? If you're to overeager with CC you might end up with only 1-2 mobs = low vengeance. Do you pop Berserk frequently? It's just that awesome for boss pulls and on thrash.

Replace your 353 gear with the new 371 pvp gear (you can exchange JP to HP at a ratio of 1,5:1) and reforge everything to dodge, but continue gemming full agility (even use a second agility trinket like Tia's Grace if possible).

Aggro issues are generally not a problem of high/low secondary stats but properly maintaining your rotation or priotise the right abilities in the right situation. For single target:

Mangle on cooldown
Thrash on cooldown
Use Faerie Fire as often as possible, despite it's low damage it's aggro generated is very high
Maul if rage is sufficient

If you don't do this you might have found your real problem. And there's even more..

Keep Pulverise up with 3 stacks of Lacerate (+9% crit = additional chance of survival and more damage)
Keep Lacerate up (for free Mangles = more rage for Maul)

For multi target:
Thrash on cooldown
Swipe on cooldown
Maul if rage is sufficient
Mangle & FFF in between the scanty free globals

Katarn
07-07-2011, 09:43 PM
Loosing Rage from Dodges is actually a huge problem in 5man content. For progression raiding it's not such a big deal since you have nearly unlimited rage while tanking anyway.

But for stuff you outgear, it's a bit of a hurdle. First thing to do is drop Maul from your usage unless you have tons of excess rage. That by itself should be enough.

Destruyen
07-08-2011, 09:09 AM
i tend to get rage starved in heroics but usually when that happens i just throw on 2 stam trinkets and put on expertise gear to help threat and cut down on some avoidance. i also drop maul from my rotation and sometimes thrash from single target if the boss is mostly caster type.

Tielyn
07-12-2011, 10:11 AM
I can't see your armory stats right now, so I'm guessing based on what others have said.

- If you're gemming straight dodge, switch 'em to agility. Agi is your biggest source of threat (it increases your AP -and- crit), and you still get some dodge out of it.
- Download Skada (a damage meter) and run a dungeon. After it's over, check out the details on your damage. If Maul is higher than Mangle, take Maul off your bar or move it out of easy reach. You should only be using Maul when you have over 50% energy, and if you're using that as your 'go to' attack, there's your problem. I only use Maul when I'm on a single target, have a full rage bar, and I have nothing better to hit with at that GCD.
- Personal preference; lots of Lacerate as my filler. Tab lacerate around multimobs when your Thrash/Swipe/Mangle is on cooldown, because the more mobs you have Lacerate on, the higher chance you proc a cooldown-free Mangle that hits multiple mobs.
- To get free rage when you have a full health bar: Add a /sit macro to your button bar. Mobs crit you when you're sitting down, so you'll get a full bar within a hit or two (but I wouldn't advise doing this on a boss). Less drastic is to deliberately turn and tank with your furry butt for a couple of seconds. Thrash and Swipe work at a 360 degree radius (so you won't lose threat), and you stop dodging while your back is turned to them.

-Tielyn

sifuedition
07-14-2011, 09:47 AM
I haven't re-checked since cata but in wotlk, 1 point of agil gave MORE dodge than 1 point of dodge. Make sure to check that because I don't think you will lose dodge to use agil gemming.

Quinafoi
07-14-2011, 11:15 AM
As a feral tank you will generally gem...

Red/Prismatic: Agility
Yellow: Agility/Dodge
Blue: Agility/Stamina
Meta: Stamina/Armor

You will reforge all of your pieces to have Dodge Rating. Any Hit or Expertise beyond cap would be first prioritiy to reforge. Assuming you are below or at the cap then you would choose to reforge Haste first, then Hit, and then Crit or Expertise (rough order of least valuable stat to most valuable). Mastery you could reforge also however will typically avoid reforging as there will be other weaker secondary stats to reforge (you would only reforge Mastery if you were trying to maximize avoidance and it simply netted more Dodge Rating).

Enchanting will favor Agility, Stamina, Dodge, and Mastery.

I believe that pretty much covers those three priorities.


As for threat, it tends to be more of an issue of technique rather than itemization. However when you outgear your content itemization can start to hurt your threat generation naturally simply by the nature of you having less vengeance.

Katarn
07-14-2011, 11:24 AM
Any Hit or Expertise beyond cap would be first prioritiy to reforge.
Haste goes first.

Tielyn
07-14-2011, 12:50 PM
Ah, now that I can see your stats:

I humbly suggest pulling those points out of Feral Aggression and putting them in King of the Jungle. A 5-15% damage increase when you use Enrage is helpful for initial aggro generation, versus getting an instant 3 stack of FFF.

-Tielyn

Seamus
07-23-2011, 03:40 PM
I have been wondering about this as well, as I did go with the 371 pvp gear, well not all of it yet, just need a few more, but the stats I am worried about are hit and expertise. Here is my armory link http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/malfurion/Elidor/simple

Edit:
I realized I didn't put in what they were sitting at :
Hit is at 4.30%
Expertise is at 13

klausi
07-23-2011, 06:01 PM
Why are you worried about those stats? Druids got Berserk, it works wonderes for any initial aggro problems on boss fights.

Seamus
07-23-2011, 09:13 PM
only reason is we have a DK that is pulling 20k+ dps and it seems really hard to keep mobs when he is busting out that dps, only on AoE pulls though

Tengenstein
07-23-2011, 10:26 PM
Ghostcrawler had a few words on AoE threat


You're probably at more risk overall of having dps pull off of you. Here are the scenarios again about how that could work:

One target -- if a dps pulls off of you, they are either blowing cooldowns before you have a chance to respond, or your threat generation is much too low for some reason.

Many targets -- in this case, the dps are probably AE'ing. Usually they will kill things pretty quickly, but they might get a few adds on them. These situations are always a little chaotic, but also don't last very long. We don't do many huge AE packs of mobs that hit brutally hard.

A few targets -- in this case, you might be CC'ing one or two, tanking a few others, but burning down the targets one at a time. If the dps are on the right target and pulling off of you, then we're back to situation one. If they are on the wrong target, then they are playing badly and should be corrected and / or mocked, depending on how you roll.
...
If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

Is the DK attacking your target during AoE? When I DPS i use a /assist[focus] macroed into my attacks, and set my focus to the tank, if he changes target i change target. only time it's a problem is if the tank is attacking the nonskull target, in which case i just clear my focus/

Seamus
07-23-2011, 10:46 PM
sometimes he bounces around a lot, but being a druid tank for AoE we have to tab target a lot always seems one always singles him out and rips him apart.

is there an addon that anyone knows about that will mark the target that the tank is attacking, or can I do this into on of my attacks via a macro

Tengenstein
07-23-2011, 10:57 PM
#showtooltip
/run SetRaidTarget("target",8)
/cast mangle
will mark your target with a skull, when you mangle change 8 to 1-8 for different symbols, but really the DK needs to learn to A) follow your lead, or B) Tank.

Seamus
07-23-2011, 11:02 PM
cool thanks for the macro, yeah he likes to do crazy dps and be the top of meters, which honestly I wish all the meters would just stop working, I am going to get them to utilize the assist macro and I will use the targeting macro

Edit: The macro clears the target on the 2nd time you use mangle anyway to fix this?

Seamus
07-24-2011, 12:34 AM
there got the macro figured out had to change the SetRaidTarget line to an if statement:

/run local t="target" if 8~=GetRaidTargetIndex(t) then SetRaidTarget(t, 8) end

that stops the icon from being removed on the 2nd keybind press

Tengenstein
07-24-2011, 12:36 AM
#showtooltip
/run !SetRaidTarget("target",8)
/cast mangle
might work

Talk to your raid leader, meterwhoring does not make for good play.

Seamus
07-31-2011, 08:26 AM
I am the raid leader, and it seems in our raid people just don't like to listen to the GM and myself at times, we both are getting a little frustrated with it. we have got him to use his shadowmeld to drop aggro though just sucks only once every 2 minutes. I am wondering if the PVP gear is hurting me threat wise, as it seems that I am doing something wrong considering the paladin tank we have can pull aggro from in 2 attacks at times, wish bear threat was like that. guess I will have to run a parse to see what exactly I am doing wrong though

Tengenstein
07-31-2011, 09:09 PM
Tank VS Tank threat should never be an issue. Either its AoE trash tankin in which case it doesn't really matter or its taunt swapping in which cast you drop your threat presence (in my case i go zerker stance, you can probably go cat) while you co-tanks pick up and (re)gains there vengeance.

I'm not familiar with Druid gearing, and i'm biased against using PVP gear for PVE, for a warrior Tank the stam increase is generally not worth the loss of secondary stats.