PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Treat T12 Normal like Heroic? Stamina is more valuable until we get more gear?



Loganisis
06-29-2011, 09:27 PM
Okay - I know the difference in gemming is pretty minimal - but I'm really thinking after downing Shannox and seeing the incoming damage that until I get a few drops, more stamina > ~1% block. There is just huge damage incoming and healers, at least in my raid, seem to be able to handle it for the most part...

I'm loath to give up block, but I feel like I did tanking my first hard modes in 346/359 gear, that the unavoidable hits just hit BIG.

Anyone else thinking that more or less?

Darksend
06-29-2011, 09:35 PM
I have gone full DPS gear on almost every fight, granted i had full 372 gear, but agi gems and agi trinkets all the way for me. (177K hp with fort food and agi flask if you want for comparison sake)

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 12:45 AM
You're tanking fights like Shannox with the big dot potential and burst damage with 177k raid buffed health? O_O

Wow. You must trust your healers impecably. I'm at a 190k raid buffed and not quite comfortable with some of the big hit potential - espcially if I make a mistake like blink and miss the immo trap on Shannox.

Fetzie
06-30-2011, 03:34 AM
If handled correctly neither tank should ever have more than 4 stacks of the bleed at Shannox, which is 12000 damage per 3 seconds, hardly something worth writing home about; the riplimb tank can, if executed correctly, remain under 3 stacks the entire fight.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 08:22 AM
If handled correctly neither tank should ever have more than 4 stacks of the bleed at Shannox, which is 12000 damage per 3 seconds, hardly something worth writing home about; the riplimb tank can, if executed correctly, remain under 3 stacks the entire fight.

If done right is the key - but if the DPS don't keep Riplimb slowed that can be problematic.

However more important is his ability to burst for 100k. At least against my warrior I saw some huge hits. Now granted, most of those were the result of me failing to see the immo trap under my feet (my understanding is there was supposed to be some sort of blue circle that was supposed to form before the trap? Seems to me the immo traps only just appear and then take 2 seconds activate)...

More key though is the damage in the burn phase, when the tank is taking 60% more hits that are 60% stronger plus eating magma ruptures.

The sheer volume of damage then, even if you do things right, can be very, very large (and by do things right I mean raid-CDs being used during the magma rupture cast as well as a tank CD).

Fetzie
06-30-2011, 08:27 AM
The traps spawn, and then 2 seconds later shannox arms them.

Reev
06-30-2011, 08:44 AM
2 seconds should be plenty of time to get out of traps.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 08:54 AM
Way to focus on the small thing and not the bigger point. Yes, immo traps are avoidable (though mistakes do happen) but you're still looking at big P2 damage. Even if you position correctly (riplimb far away) and stay from immo traps you're still going to take some bursts in P2.

Since mistakes do happen, especially early on - it feels to me that more health right now helps more, since most of the incoming damage is already fairly smooth, but there are bursts, especially with DBM/BigWig timers not fully there so you don't always get your raid CDs for all burst.

Reev
06-30-2011, 08:58 AM
The vast majority of the incoming damage on that fight is going to be melee, though, if you're doing it correctly. The DoT shouldn't be that much at all until the final phase, whereupon you have cooldowns to handle it. While I don't mind using a stamina trinket, I don't think you need 190k stamina to do this well. I sit at 180k raid buffed with an alch fortified stamina flask and 2 stamina trinkets. I just think that if you're uncomfortable at 190k HP, there's something avoidable going on.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 08:58 AM
You also do 10m - 25m I can get 160k in incoming damage in one second (without immo traps) if an arcing slash lands right after a melee swing.

truculent
06-30-2011, 09:02 AM
so far I havent seen enough damage on either tank to make the call. In my oppinion I think stam "may" offer a slight advantage but only due to the amount of magic damage in some fights. However, It appears much of the tank damage can be avoided if the raid is executing the fight strats properly. As for the OP, I dont understand how stam would help the situation you have discribed. If your taking " big hits" as in melee hits, you simply want more block to reduce the damage. Even in the burn phase of shannox, you will have 2 tanks available. using a cd/taunt rotation would be far more effective then one of the tanks stacking stam.

Reev
06-30-2011, 09:02 AM
so far I havent seen enough damage on either tank to make the call. In my oppinion I think stam "may" offer a slight advantage but only due to the amount of magic damage in some fights. However, It appears much of the tank damage can be avoided if the raid is executing the fight strats properly. As for the OP, I dont understand how stam would help the situation you have discribed. If your taking " big hits" as in melee hits, you simply want more block to reduce the damage. Even in the burn phase of shannox, you will have 2 tanks available. using a cd/taunt rotation would be far more effective then one of the tanks stacking stam.

No taunts on Shannox.

Bigbad
06-30-2011, 09:13 AM
It should be tuned for 359 gear so i doubt we'll need to stack stam for normal modes, assuming we have a few pieces of 372. Might help if you mess up on new mechanics. Going to raid it tonight myself so i'll see if there is any spikedamage that makes me uncomfortable.

truculent
06-30-2011, 09:17 AM
No taunts on Shannox.

well, yea... but we were able to switch aggro positions in the last phase and the phase didnt last more then 1 tank switch. think the boss died about 20-30 seconds after the other tank took aggro.

Reev
06-30-2011, 09:20 AM
well, yea... but we were able to switch aggro positions in the last phase and the phase didnt last more then 1 tank switch. think the boss died about 20-30 seconds after the other tank took aggro.

That won't work on the standard "kite riplimb" 10 man strategy, because the offtank won't hit Shannox at all until phase 3.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 09:21 AM
[23:50:40.108] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 72143 (A: 2666)
[23:50:52.448] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 79288
[23:51:20.139] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 76063
[23:51:31.185] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 58280
[23:52:02.883] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 97930
[23:52:13.913] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 66226 (A: 4002)
[23:52:39.496] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 98214 (O: 8914)
[23:52:54.262] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 44196
[23:54:12.769] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 106995 (A: 2837)
[23:54:23.788] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 85972
[23:54:51.769] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 101242
[23:55:04.015] Shannox Arcing Slash Shadowfiend 17233
[23:55:41.932] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 70161
[23:55:52.875] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 102936
[23:56:24.656] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 109228
[23:57:03.824] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 97981
[23:57:16.050] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 81727
[23:57:50.172] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 107855
[23:58:01.092] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 61902 (A: 26530)
[23:58:31.715] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 113203
[23:58:43.917] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 93625 (A: 976)
[23:59:03.898] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 87253
[23:59:14.085] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 63351
[23:59:25.036] Shannox Arcing Slash Loganisis 132091
[00:00:00.370] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 85787
[00:00:10.623] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 58910
[00:00:22.476] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 49910
[00:00:33.380] Shannox Arcing Slash Beldīn 24877 (O: 684632)

From our kill (I lagged out after taking over as the tank, the healers kept me up for a minute without being able to hit any CDs).

But as you can see, I was taking 100k arcing slashes and they were usually with 1 second of a 40k blocked melee hit or 70k unblocked melee hit.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 09:22 AM
That won't work on the standard "kite riplimb" 10 man strategy, because the offtank won't hit Shannox at all until phase 3.

Our 25m strat didn't really involve tank switches, it was more backup tanking. Tank switches aren't really necessary once you get it down.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 09:23 AM
It should be tuned for 359 gear so i doubt we'll need to stack stam for normal modes, assuming we have a few pieces of 372. Might help if you mess up on new mechanics. Going to raid it tonight myself so i'll see if there is any spikedamage that makes me uncomfortable.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong - probably am. In 25 it just seemed like there was some really big incoming damage bursts when a melee and arcing slash line up.

It's not unmanagable - I'm just not comfortable at 190k raid buffed in 25m... :-/

Reev
06-30-2011, 09:31 AM
Maybe a better way to put this, then, is that in 25 man raids where there are very large incoming damage hits, and where you have lots of healers to get you back up to full after a very large hit, it makes sense to go for Stam on this fight. In 10 man, however, where the concern is more having your healers able to keep up with the damage without going OOM, it may make more sense to have a more balanced gearing strategy.

Crittable
06-30-2011, 05:45 PM
Why is it that you take 6 arcing slashes over 100k and Beldin only takes 1?

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 06:19 PM
Why is it that you take 6 arcing slashes over 100k and Beldin only takes 1?

Part of it is until I died closed to the end, I took all the frenzies. I'm thinking part of it is I may not have kept demo shout up. That woudl be a 10% reduction. And I know demo fell off as I lagged out for ~60 seconds towards the end, in the P2 phase. So part of it is probably not having CDs due to lag and part of it was demo fallng off and part of it was taking most of the 1 and 2 stack of frenzy I guess.

Icebreaker
07-01-2011, 01:33 AM
Did it 10man. At the beginning was trapped due to the fact that's my orc feet are the same size as the traps :) and yes - had tough time and started thinking that I need more stamina. But after I began moving more, well, PVP like:) - a bit left, a bit right, forward, back and so on - I saw all traps very clearly and just waited for Hurl Spear to check how many Jagged Tear stacks I have and do I need to kite the boss a bit to wear it off. In this way it's clearly mastery fight, and ph 2 is ok with cds - survived till the end with quite a good health:).

Selendis
07-01-2011, 02:49 AM
From what we've been through on 10 man, I don't feel like I'm taking huge hits. I've died (plenty) but it always seem that the "burst" comes in form of rapid attacks, and as such more likely to be reduced by mitigation. (as in avoidance + block, not sure what the expression is).
Generally I can echo what everyone else has said, don't stand in stuff and generally follow fight mechanics and I don't see the need of a larger healthpool yet. (mind you, this is 10 man normal...)

swelt
07-01-2011, 04:42 AM
It should be tuned for 359 gear so i doubt we'll need to stack stam for normal modes, assuming we have a few pieces of 372. Might help if you mess up on new mechanics. Going to raid it tonight myself so i'll see if there is any spikedamage that makes me uncomfortable.
I think this is important: the damage is tuned within expected gear margins, but lots of people are at different gear levels.

If you are in full T11 heroic gear, you are already above the entry level and in the comfortable level for doing these bosses. Even the first bosses in the instance should be tuned with your current base stamina pools in mind. Hence Darksend doing it 'in dps gear' (which is also influenced by him being feral, so getting a lot more benefit from dps stats in survival). On the other hand, if you are coming into this content with full t11 NORMAL gear, then I think it's entirely likely that Blizzard will have expected you to gem/enchant/gear around high stamina. I'm not talking WOTLK-style blue stam gems in every slot, but quite possibly double stam trinkets and stam/hybrid gemming etc. Entry level doesn't mean "I can walk in with T11 normal and it'll be easy", it's tuned to be hard for you at the start and become easier as you get upgrades inside the instance.

I certainly experienced the 'arcing slash + dot tick + melee swing' virtual instagib. I don't know if this is more of a 25 than 10 man thing? It may also have been a demo shout lapse, I certainly made sure it never dropped off after that and didn't have the same problem again.

pulled
07-01-2011, 12:47 PM
so how are u guys gearen for rag then. atm i am mastery parry dodge stam but seem to haven a lil trouble stayen up.

Loganisis
07-01-2011, 04:34 PM
I think this is important: the damage is tuned within expected gear margins, but lots of people are at different gear levels.

If you are in full T11 heroic gear, you are already above the entry level and in the comfortable level for doing these bosses. Even the first bosses in the instance should be tuned with your current base stamina pools in mind. Hence Darksend doing it 'in dps gear' (which is also influenced by him being feral, so getting a lot more benefit from dps stats in survival). On the other hand, if you are coming into this content with full t11 NORMAL gear, then I think it's entirely likely that Blizzard will have expected you to gem/enchant/gear around high stamina. I'm not talking WOTLK-style blue stam gems in every slot, but quite possibly double stam trinkets and stam/hybrid gemming etc. Entry level doesn't mean "I can walk in with T11 normal and it'll be easy", it's tuned to be hard for you at the start and become easier as you get upgrades inside the instance.

I certainly experienced the 'arcing slash + dot tick + melee swing' virtual instagib. I don't know if this is more of a 25 than 10 man thing? It may also have been a demo shout lapse, I certainly made sure it never dropped off after that and didn't have the same problem again.

I think ultimately this is what I was trying to figure out. I have a few T11 H tank pieces, but I was nowhere near full T11 and the incoming hits and not fully understanding the fight made me wish for more stamina so if I made 1 mistake it wasn't a wipe.

I'm not at the point yet that I feel comfortable with my health pool - so I think I am going to go back to stam-centric gemming. I figure by the time I have 3 or 4 T12n drops, I'll be swapping back to the mastery-centric gemming philosophy until such a time as I can hit 102.4 or T13 drops. By then I'll have the stamina of a full T11 heroic tank and be far more comfortable (yes, 20-30k is enough I think to make the burst damage comfortable, especially with the increased understanding of the fights that will occur every week).

Tengenstein
07-01-2011, 04:44 PM
I'm mostly in 359s, got a few easy to aquire 4.2 bits, i'm gemming mastery centric, got one stam trink, the worm, and i'm not having too many probems with Shannox's damage. Running about 80% blockvoidance and i'm actually considering swappina few threat peices to shorten the fight. Getting roflstomped by his 10 minute enrage

Dagron
07-01-2011, 04:53 PM
If you honestly think that it's safer to get a few thousand extra stamina over the extra mitigation you're out of your mind. I generally tank with mastery/resistance elixirs for that very same reason.

Loganisis
07-01-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm mostly in 359s, got a few easy to aquire 4.2 bits, i'm gemming mastery centric, got one stam trink, the worm, and i'm not having too many probems with Shannox's damage. Running about 80% blockvoidance and i'm actually considering swappina few threat peices to shorten the fight. Getting roflstomped by his 10 minute enrage

10 or 25?

Tengenstein
07-01-2011, 05:46 PM
10 man.

Loganisis
07-01-2011, 06:26 PM
10 man.

I think that's part of it. Reev and I went around on this yesterday, it looks like 25m damage is 50% greater or more. The incoming hits Reev and Ion talked about were far less than the ones our logs showed. Which makes sense, 25m has more healing there. But it does have bigger hits based on what they said about their hits.

Ion
07-03-2011, 09:03 AM
I think that's part of it. Reev and I went around on this yesterday, it looks like 25m damage is 50% greater or more. The incoming hits Reev and Ion talked about were far less than the ones our logs showed. Which makes sense, 25m has more healing there. But it does have bigger hits based on what they said about their hits.

Still sounds like a bug to me...your hits were literally TWICE the size of the ones we saw. I'm EXTREMELY doubtful that's working as intended. I mean, it makes SOME sense that you'd take a bit bigger hits, just because yeah, you've got more healers and it's not like there's much healing going on other than tanks (Rapeface aside). But to suggest that it'd be so different that you'd actually have to change your gearing between 10 and 25 because of it seems dubious to me.

gacktt
07-04-2011, 01:23 AM
1% dodge = 8000hp worth of gems. Ask yourself, what percentage of boss damage is magic/unavoidable physical? Did having 5% dodge and 40k less hp really help me and not make me easier to kill? Ok obviously if you're a paladin you get block capped, and a warrior will eventually want to aim for it too, but as early as requiring you to use avoidance trinkets and full mastery gems.

swelt
07-04-2011, 02:23 AM
But to suggest that it'd be so different that you'd actually have to change your gearing between 10 and 25 because of it seems dubious to me.
I was discussing exactly this with a healer yesterday. We'd done the same fights in 10 and 25 man versions, we were talking through the differences. The big spike damage on Shannox was a feature in the 25 man that simply wasn't there in the 10 man... but they didn't see it as a problem because with 6-7 healers they had the tools to handle it. That however sets up the potentially controversial situation you allude to: if 'big spike damage on tanks' is only going to be a feature in 25 man raiding, tanks may to have to gear differently for the different raid sizes, different tank classes may be better or worse suited to different raid sizes, etc. Nightmare waiting to happen. On the other hand, if they don't have this kind of thing, the healers in 25 man will get an easy ride... and the healing in 10 man is challenging in other ways.

It's probably far too soon to make a song and dance about it. Things don't need to be identical across the raid sizes, just broadly equivalent in terms of challenges, but I do think it's a potentially dangerous trend.

Haydelars
07-05-2011, 12:40 AM
When Blizzard announced the changes for Cataclysm, one of the points they made was that they intended to have less of a gap between the health pools of tanks and healers/dps and to have tanks focus more on avoidance than health, with the exception being DK tanks, who's mastery is directly linked to their health.

As a DK tank in 10 man content, I found that with the minimal amounts of inherent avoidance, it is best to stack stamina for gems followed by mastery and not worry about avoidance at all, since you wont be able to get it high enough to matte like pallies and warriors can. Fully raid buffed I get to 206k hp with all 359+ gear (with the exception of a 346 trinket), at the same time having 118% mastery, and I can keep myself up rather well with the combination of self-heals and the mastery absorption shield. The shields from mastery alone are 30-50% of the damage done by a raid boss in 10 man (depending which boss), with a slightly smaller amount of self healing, which equals near 100% of the amount of damage mitigated or healed, essentially making the previous hit null (the same basic benefit of a dodge or parry). When taking into account not only the amount of self-healing done by death strike, but also the increased amount of the shield from blood mastery, stamina is by far the best stat for DK tanks.

On the other hand, on my paladin tank I choose to stack mastery followed by dodge/parry since they don't really have much that is based off of their health pools other than the size of hits they can take, and the reduced overall damage is easier on the healers. In essence, the stam stacking for DK's and the avoidance stacking for other tanks does the same thing by reducing the overall dmg taken by that tank.

With the changes to healer mana from WotLK to Cataclysm, the ideal tank is no longer "He with the Biggest Health Pool", but rather the tank that can mitigate the incoming damage in order to need the least amount of heals and thus save the healers' mana for the length of the fight. In the end, stamina for DK's and avoidance for pallies/warrs/druids ends up creating about the same ammount of damage mitigation (or mitigation/healing for DK's), but if you were to reverse the stat priorities none of them would last in a longer fight because they would drain their healers' mana too quickly by taking the large hits more often rather than a lot of small hits and a couple big ones.

As for the Shannox discussion, I tanked Riplimb at max range with a beacon on me while a paladin tanked Shannox for the entire fight. We both geared the ways I described, and neither of us had trouble staying alive stacking stats for damage mitigation for each of our classes.

Loganisis
07-05-2011, 01:11 AM
Hay - as we've seen in the discussion (and Swelt pointed on explicitly) there seems to be a signficant difference between 10m and 25m tank damage - and while block tanks gearing for block capped (unhittable) is usually the best way to go, the question is, in 25m, with the amount of unavoidable damage coming in coupled with the large but mitigatable damage, is it better right now, if you're not in full 372 heroic gear (which would probably give you sufficient stamina) to gem stamina in order to make sure you can take those large hits.

Shannox is a great example, even with good clearing of the jagged tears, in 25m on our kill, we were seeing arcing slashes hitting for over 100k regularly with 2 stacks of frenzy, buffeted on both sides by multiple normal melee attacks that could hit 80k if unblocked.

My experience, and what has prompted this thread, is the question, in 359 gear (and only in 25m it appears) - does it feel like healers mana isn't the issue, but having a large enough pool of HP to take the hits and live is?

Haydelars
07-05-2011, 03:23 AM
If you are going to be taking hits for 100k and 80k close together plus a DoT for easily 20k per 3 seconds, that comes to 200k damage, and you won't realistically be able to get enough hp to survive that much un-mitigated damage.

However, if you are a paladin with roughly 50% block, you will have about 2150 mastery to get there. If you trade that mastery point-for-point you will get an hp increase of about 30k.

I'll leave out the on paper work from the post, but doing some math based on the stacking DoT in 25 man and the melee swings being able to hit for 80k un-mitigated with 60% increased damage, I came out with an increase of 220k damage taken in a 30 second period from the start of phase 2, with an increase of 83k during the last 10 seconds, which is an additional 8.3k heals per second that would need to be directed away from the raid and onto the tank.

So theory-wise, block > stam by virtue of shear numbers where the damage taken is too great to equal the benefit of the health increase. But, of course, in practice I could be wrong XD

Bigbad
07-05-2011, 03:53 AM
Shannox is a bit spiky but some of the spikes can be predicted when spear is returned to shannox or when riplimb gets the OT after being trapped. Was tanking riplimb on 25man myself with 1 healer on me it was a bit tricky but with 2 healers i was completely fine. Didn't feel like i needed to gem stamina but already at 188k raidbuffed so overgearing it a little bit. Bethilec doesn't seem to require stamina just coordinate on vent that the healers follow you up and in p2 cycle a few cds at the end. Same goes for rhiolyth, only the big add with too much volcano debuffs hurt.

swelt
07-05-2011, 11:42 AM
If you are going to be taking hits for 100k and 80k close together plus a DoT for easily 20k per 3 seconds, that comes to 200k damage, and you won't realistically be able to get enough hp to survive that much un-mitigated damage.
I'm comfortably above 200k raid buffed with stam flask in my max stam set and that's without much T12 gear. Add in some disc shield and the like and that kind of spike is survivable. Not that I think Shannox actually spikes quite that hard if you are doing it right, but not far off either.

But like I said, I think it's way too early to draw long conclusions about how 10 and 25 man damage profiles might be diverging... something to keep in view when heroic modes roll around.

Loganisis
07-05-2011, 03:07 PM
If you are going to be taking hits for 100k and 80k close together plus a DoT for easily 20k per 3 seconds, that comes to 200k damage, and you won't realistically be able to get enough hp to survive that much un-mitigated damage.

See, that's where I disagree with you. Here are the baselines:
1. I'm a warrior, I can't eliminate unblocked hits (if I could there's no question I'd pump mastery and hit 102.4, but I can't hit that yet, I'm still in the 80s - not counting using SB on near CD on this fight since the pressure is pretty consistent, you're getting spikes fairly frequently).
2. The hardest hitting phase the tank also gains a healer. So the raw amount of green numbers coming in are substantinal, if I can guarantee that I can multiple hit string.
3. Since I can't eliminate bad hit strings then stamina has more value when it comes to bad hit strings. Most of the fight I won't be in danger of dying, it's really a bad string of unblocked attacks (and obviously undodged/unparried) that concerns me. I don't feel I have that margin of error I'm used to having.

The entire philosphy of the mastery-centric gear design for block tanks is the hits aren't big enough that you're ever in danger of being 3shot. 2 unblocked hits + arcing slash with a 60% attack speed debuff comes pretty damn close to pulling the rug out from under that party. T11 had mostly instant-kill mechanics (mangle if rodeo failed, break + double attack, etc, etc) and steady, but not extreme incoming damage. T12, 25m, feels much more consistent in heavy damage than T11 did, even when looking at the incoming damage in hard modes (granted we were only 5/13, so there may be some fights I didn't see where that wasn't the case).


So theory-wise, block > stam by virtue of shear numbers where the damage taken is too great to equal the benefit of the health increase

Basically, I agree with this in terms of a steady press of damage, but the other factor to block gearing is that healer mana is constrained, so less required healing + little chance of 2 or 3 shot makes block-centric work and very, very effective. In 25m, I've never heard our healers complain about Mana unless they died and were ressed - but I've seen huge and rapid hits.

Lightmgl
07-05-2011, 10:14 PM
Alot of people aren't mentioning some of the facets of the non stam gear and the tanking too. If the spikes are predictable, its on you to use your cooldowns to reduce them. On Shannox you know you're gonna eat alot of damage when he gets the spear back. Save your Death Strike, Shield Block, or Holy Shield for that and you don't need the extra health pool because you know you're going to heavily reduce the melee attack that goes with it. Other reactives like Power Word Shield and Earth Shield are going to help further mitigate this. You know you are going to be eating some serious damage during Frenzy too so save the heavy emergency cooldowns for that.

If you move beyond skill usage and start looking at some of the non stam options like Spidersilk Spindle you'll realize that if you take that dangerous burst you'll proc a 17k absorb shield on yourself to help mitigate. Thats much better then having the stamina trinket to cushion it in the first place as you get the health when you need it, and you get alot more than you would get by throwing on a 544 stam trinket. Also if you are using gear like this with the increased mitigation it is much more likely that you and your healers will have mana/cooldowns for the specific bursts instead of being forced to use them at other points in the fight because of less avoidance or blocking.

There really isn't any outright burst in the game that can kill you regardless of whether you go for stam or avoidance unless you eat it with absolutely none of the things that the game gives you and the healers to help you deal with it or you screw up a mechanic. It might be a bit more of an issue in 353, but certainly not 359 or 359 with mixed 365. I'm sure Heroic T12 is when we will have to pick it up a bit. Some of the pieces seem to add massive amounts of stamina compared to their non heroic versions as do specific slots of 378 (shields lol).

tldr; I'd rather be smart about dealing with the burst and having the increased mitigation the rest of the time. Makes it easier to keep you up and makes it easier to keep the raid up. Block capping as a Warrior also isn't too much of a dream anymore, especially if you are a Night Elf. I'm already looking at 86% combined B/D/P as a human unbuffed and I'm far from optimally geared for it. Bosses still appear to have a 5% miss chance too so if I was a Night Elf I'd already be looking at something like 93% avoidance unbuffed. If you're not hitting it 100% of the time you're certainly gonna hit it 66% of the time once you get 4 piece, very easily.

swelt
07-06-2011, 03:36 AM
The whole discussion shifts if you can reach 'unhittable'. Once you get the magic 100% (or 102.4?) combined b/p/d/m then you can factor in block as a given reduction on physical hits when calculating how much stamina is 'enough'. Until you get to that point however, 'enough' stamina is going to be loosely defined as whatever the biggest unblocked spike is.

I don't think it's helpful to focus too heavily on Shannox, but I also don't think you can say that you can mitigate all his spike damage through cooldown usage. Sure, you know he'll do a spike right after he gets his spear back, but that isn't the only time he's going to do a melee and arcing slash combo and it's the ones in between where you also have the DOT to factor in.

Kazistrasza
07-06-2011, 12:34 PM
Last night our 10-man guild got our first Firelands raid in. We all went in pretty much right at a 359 ilvl as we only got one Halfus and one Chimaeron kill in before the patch (we started the guild REALLY late into the tier). Both I (DK) and our pally tank are currently gemmed stamina and stamina hybrids.

When we killed Shannox he was handling Riplimb and was never in danger of dying at any point. However, I was handling Shannox and even with the smaller hits from 10-man there were a few times where I saw my health get really low that I might not have survived if I hadn't gemmed for stam. Honestly, I died in the end anyway IIRC to a an unlucky spikey between two heals being cast and everyone but the warrior managed to dump enough threat for the pally to pick it up and finish the last 1mil HP.

When we killed Beth'tilac, I was going up top to tank her while our pally handled the adds down below. Again, healing him was never an issue once our DPS got set up better at killing the adds and he didn't end up with 2 drones and 2 spinners on him at same time. On our kill, I did again have an issue with almost dying and wouldn't have lived without the ~25k I picked up with I switched to stam from mastery. Granted, I got a couple parries on Unholy strike when trying to re-apply at that time so the damage reduction debuff fell off but I was still getting hit for more or less the exact amount of his Divine Light and Word of Glory for about 6 casts before I could be gotten up again (I was between CDs on this point).

As Loganisis already said, with flawless playing it really doesn't matter. However, even on 10-man for the first two fights I've done I'm seeing it beneficial for us to both be stamina and have that much higher EH. I dislike the WotLK model of tank gearing, because it was silly. However, I still think EH has its merits when you're capable of getting those bursts.

Reev
07-06-2011, 02:51 PM
Logan, I did Shannox 25 man last night, and I definitely see what you mean. There's some definite spike damage there in 25s.

Tengenstein
07-06-2011, 04:25 PM
Last night our 10-man guild got our first Firelands raid in. We all went in pretty much right at a 359 ilvl as we only got one Halfus and one Chimaeron kill in before the patch (we started the guild REALLY late into the tier). Both I (DK) and our pally tank are currently gemmed stamina and stamina hybrids.

When we killed Shannox he was handling Riplimb and was never in danger of dying at any point. However, I was handling Shannox and even with the smaller hits from 10-man there were a few times where I saw my health get really low that I might not have survived if I hadn't gemmed for stam. Honestly, I died in the end anyway IIRC to a an unlucky spikey between two heals being cast and everyone but the warrior managed to dump enough threat for the pally to pick it up and finish the last 1mil HP.

We just got out first kill tonight, i have mainly 359 gear; 157k health unbuffed and 52% block, my trinkets where Worm and Mirror, at only 2 points did worm Proc and both where in the last 30%, I really didn't feel in danger of dying until 2 of my 3 healers ate a magma flare.

Loganisis
07-06-2011, 11:12 PM
Logan, I did Shannox 25 man last night, and I definitely see what you mean. There's some definite spike damage there in 25s.

It does makes sense there is bigger damage, you have 2 healers (wtb disc in the future though...) basically glued to you. But the margins for error just felt so frustratingly small. However, given time to reflect - it isn't as big of an issue - it's more adjusting to the fight better.

Some players who are more talented than I can do that a little faster. I needed to vent a little. I still think that the minor change in bad hit strings in 25m from switching from mastery-centered to stam-centered isn't going to result in any noticeable damage increase, but it will provide that slightly larger margin until I can get a few more 378s. Then it's back to mastery-centered and as much CTC as possible.

Lightmgl
07-06-2011, 11:25 PM
In reality this is going to vary heavily from fight to fight too.

In some fights like Beth'tilac and Baleroc, avoidance should be the clear winner (especially Baleroc). In Alysrazor you're probably going to be gearing more for damage (hit/exp) and less for mitigation unless you find yourself having a really easy time killing your bird. In Majordomo it is a tossup as Stamina is much better for Scorpion but avoidance is much better for Cat. Once again it is a tossup on Rag too as the Seeds can lead to some serious burst, but I prefer Mastery there anyways since even just Shield Block reduces that burst alot and other cooldowns trivialize it. I would say it is a tossup on Shannox too.

Anyways hitting 102.4 is going to be easy as a Paladin and semi-easy as a Warrior (it will take more optimized gear and 2 trinkets with avoidance stats on them if you are not a night elf). I'm actually finding myself still preferring the 359 Alchemy Trinket dualed with the Beth'tilac trinket because it pushes me up to 95% raidbuffed avoidance. If I ditched a few of my dodge/parry pieces for mastery pieces, I would not be very far off the cap.

That brings up another interesting mathematical point we will have to determine for warriors. Is it better to shoot for 102.4 all the time and make your 4pc worthless (well not worthless but significantly less useful), or is it better to shoot for 94.4, and let yourself be capped 2/3rds of the time (1/3rd for shield block, 1/3rd from 4pc) and leave yourself a bit more vulnerable the other 1/3rd of the time in exchange for much higher stamina. I'm actually thinking the Warrior 4pc may get left in the dust and we may just choose to replace the worst pieces (Helm, Chest) with Mastery alternatives to help shoot for the 102.4 cap full time without sacrificing as much to get there.

Loganisis
07-07-2011, 07:52 AM
In reality this is going to vary heavily from fight to fight too.

Yes - but the only fight I'm worried about burst down for that I've seen in Shannox. So it's the only I'm going to focus on primarily.


Anyways hitting 102.4 is going to be easy as a Paladin and semi-easy as a Warrior (it will take more optimized gear and 2 trinkets with avoidance stats on them if you are not a night elf). I'm actually finding myself still preferring the 359 Alchemy Trinket dualed with the Beth'tilac trinket because it pushes me up to 95% raidbuffed avoidance. If I ditched a few of my dodge/parry pieces for mastery pieces, I would not be very far off the cap.

This is basically irrelevent to the topic at hand. What to do right now? With 3-5 drops (depending on the slot) it's clearly going to go back to CTC-builds. But right now I'm more concerened with having 'enough' health to take the bursts reliably.

kopcap
07-07-2011, 09:29 AM
Unittable is easily achievable in 378 gear with 2 mastery trinkets, with or without the 4 piece. We are going to talk about pushing block off the table rather than getting to 102.4 :)

Heroic gear naturally emphasizes avoidance. Choice we gonna be having seems to be stamina vs avoidance, how to balance them.

Reev
07-07-2011, 09:38 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking for 25 man, I may go back to a stam centered approach. Right now I think I only have around 180k fully buffed HP, and I'm seeing 80k arcing slashes and 80k melee swings (when unblocked, like 8% of the time), plus the ticking DoT. While the extra mastery is nice for keeping me from being low on HP when the arcing slash lands, the "worst case scenario" isn't unlikely in 25 man, so you kind of have to be prepared for it. I'm not liking that they've made a "worst case scenario" possible one shot again. I was pretty happy they got away from that last tier. Oh well.

Lightmgl
07-07-2011, 11:35 AM
Yes - but the only fight I'm worried about burst down for that I've seen in Shannox. So it's the only I'm going to focus on primarily.



This is basically irrelevent to the topic at hand. What to do right now? With 3-5 drops (depending on the slot) it's clearly going to go back to CTC-builds. But right now I'm more concerened with having 'enough' health to take the bursts reliably.

I guess I misunderstood since you refer to Tier 12 in the topic and not just Shannox, I thought you were making a blanket statement about T12 based on your experience with Shannox.

Going back to Shannox then the only dangerous burst should be post Frenzy, and going back to what I originally said that goes with how comfortable you and your raid are with rotating cooldowns. If you feel like you need stamina because you aren't comfortable rotating your personal cooldowns with BoSac, Rallying Cry, etc. then you should definitely gear the stamina.

Loganisis
07-07-2011, 03:01 PM
I guess I misunderstood since you refer to Tier 12 in the topic and not just Shannox, I thought you were making a blanket statement about T12 based on your experience with Shannox.

Well, this was a gut reaction to Shannox - which is what we did the first night. I had lots of attempts and at this point, this was my only point of reference. I should have changed the title to Shannox, but never really thought of it as the dicussion was mostly on Shannon. At the time i posted, Shannox = T12 for me.


Going back to Shannox then the only dangerous burst should be post Frenzy, and going back to what I originally said that goes with how comfortable you and your raid are with rotating cooldowns. If you feel like you need stamina because you aren't comfortable rotating your personal cooldowns with BoSac, Rallying Cry, etc. then you should definitely gear the stamina.

yeah, the issue is you can't have CDs up 100% of the fight - and it's in those areas where I don't have avialble tanking CDs and raid CDs are being used more for the AoE, I still want to make sure I can survive a worst case before I work on smoothing damage.

Lightmgl
07-07-2011, 03:28 PM
Well, this was a gut reaction to Shannox - which is what we did the first night. I had lots of attempts and at this point, this was my only point of reference. I should have changed the title to Shannox, but never really thought of it as the dicussion was mostly on Shannon. At the time i posted, Shannox = T12 for me.



yeah, the issue is you can't have CDs up 100% of the fight - and it's in those areas where I don't have avialble tanking CDs and raid CDs are being used more for the AoE, I still want to make sure I can survive a worst case before I work on smoothing damage.

Thats strange though because outside of Frenzy the damage has never been bursty enough to take our tanks down in non stam gear unless the physical damage debuff drops off. Pre frenzy we're typically seeing a max burst of around 150k-160k if nothing is missed/avoided/blocked. Since having the extra stamina doesn't mean you will survive an additional hit after that without heals, it never seemed worth it to me so I opt for reducing the odds that that burst will ever happen to reduce the likelihood that I will ever be 1 attack/dot tick away from death.

I guess thats just how my personal tank philosophy has evolved. If the stamina is not enough to allow you to survive the next hit on you without heals, its not worth stacking it. Thankfully during Frenzy its pretty easy to keep up a rotation for most/all of it that will prevent the 1 shots.

Its a bit of an odd fight for Warriors/Paladins too since you can't block Arcing Slash for some reason, its a totally different ballgame for druids and dks tanking him since their absorbs can reduce it and that acts as having a larger health pool for them.

theodisius
07-07-2011, 05:11 PM
Unittable is easily achievable in 378 gear with 2 mastery trinkets,...

Can you link a gear set that shows this? My calculations suggested that's true for my pally but I can't see it holding for a warrior.

kopcap
07-08-2011, 11:24 AM
My computer is too slow atm to load that profile. I basically just put a together BIS list from normal T12 and heroic T11 with two mastery trinkets and T12 4 set with a head off piece, put mastery hybrid gems, reforged to mastery/dodge and ticked mastery elixir and food. Hit was off the table. Nelf warriors could get decimals off it in t11 anyway, can't be too hard now.

gacktt
07-08-2011, 02:41 PM
Unittable is easily achievable in 378 gear with 2 mastery trinkets, with or without the 4 piece. We are going to talk about pushing block off the table rather than getting to 102.4 :) Heroic gear naturally emphasizes avoidance. Choice we gonna be having seems to be stamina vs avoidance, how to balance them. Mastery trinket? there's only one tanking trinket with mastery, thanks to the whole "durrr no agi->dodge for you!" change. edit: ah I did not notice beth'tilac has a mastery trinket.

klausi
07-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Unittable is easily achievable in 378 gear with 2 mastery trinkets, with or without the 4 piece. We are going to talk about pushing block off the table rather than getting to 102.4 :)
It was almost possible for a warrior nelf using two mastery trinkets and a mastery elixir combo, reaching 101,x% during a Windwalk procc or using their trinket.

With two 391 trinkets and the natural gear increasement via itemlevel it should be possible for every race outside of proccs, especially considering some better itemized slots. Just compare your current gear to Pauldrons of Roaring Flame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71612) or Uncrushable Belt of Fury (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71443) (422 mastery with gems, fourhundredtwentytwo!). But honestly i'm looking more forward to reaching (way) higher level of avoidance rather then higher level of ctc when i think of many of those boss's abilities. This might depend as well on raidsize where you're tanking, just have a look at the great differences on Shannox for 10m vs 25m gearing.

Alysana
07-09-2011, 12:13 AM
Pauldrons of Roaring Flame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71612)

I must've missed this, but have they been confirmed to give mastery now? For a long time they were showing dodge+hit ingame but dodge+mastery on the armory.

Edit: Just saw the hotfix on mmo, completely missed it sorry.

But not only will stamina vs avoidance change based on the encounter, it'll also change heavily depending on YOUR healers. What works best for Xav might not work as good for you, purely due to his healers. If your healers are never struggling with mana and finding it a breeze to heal you, then you might as well stack stamina to increase their time to react.

It's really not as black and white as people try to make it sound like, we're not DPS where there's only one right path.

GideonJura
07-19-2011, 06:37 AM
You're taking as a example probably the only fight in Firelands where stamina can payoff a bit more due to the fact of being required a certain mobility and a large amount of damage being in the form of dots.

From what i've seen so far (7/7 in normal and shannox in hc) there's no other fight where you can get so much of a large health pool.

Loganisis
07-19-2011, 09:03 AM
You're taking as a example probably the only fight in Firelands where stamina can payoff a bit more due to the fact of being required a certain mobility and a large amount of damage being in the form of dots.

From what i've seen so far (7/7 in normal and shannox in hc) there's no other fight where you can get so much of a large health pool.

Yeah - as it's been pointed out - this post was made very early in the tier. It's been mentioned several times.

Really, this thread should be end :P

Strucker
07-19-2011, 01:31 PM
Can you link a gear set that shows this? My calculations suggested that's true for my pally but I can't see it holding for a warrior.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Strucker/simple

With Mastery food/elixers and raid buffs im running at 98.47/102.4 unhittable
A second mastery trinket (Mirror of Broken Images (http://www.tankspot.com/item=62471)) raises it by about 2.69%. 101.16

On rawr, just upgrading my leggings and gloves to the 378 tier 12 ones will make me unhittble.

pulled
07-20-2011, 05:08 AM
earlier it was said there is "only one mastery tank trinket"
to me its clear that this trinket is for tanks http://www.wowhead.com/item=69002 non of the new procs from trinket are in any way sexy so atm im using this trinket with the spider boss trinket for the mastery stats. swaping in mirror for specific bosses.

Lightmgl
07-26-2011, 05:59 PM
It may be because I do 10 man heroic primarily now but I can't really find anything good to replace my Lifebound Alchemist Stone with as the combination of Stam and Mastery is incredible vs just ditching it for one of the full stam alternatives or the dodge alternative. That + the Spidersilk Spindle is just too nice.

Its just hard to justify losing 253 mastery for 195 stamina or 253 mastery and 380 stamina for 230 dodge and 153 mastery.

Tengenstein
09-08-2011, 10:31 AM
Why you want alot of health for Shannox 25: arcing slash hits for ~80k, melee is also ~around 80K, these can happen at the SAME time, while these huge spikes are happening you have jagged tear bleeding you for an additional 2.5k every 3 seconds per stack, which in the best cast scenario will only go as high as 3, meaning that in order to not be insta gibbed like good ol'Gormok used to do you need a minimum of >167.5k healthm if your healers perform flawlessly. Logan (and I presume the vast majority of tanks) prefer to give healers as much breathing room as they can.

Kerchunk
09-09-2011, 01:26 PM
arcing slash hits for ~80k, melee is also ~around 80K

Whoa, those are some mighty powerful tildes you have there. Melee comes nowhere near that amount. Arcing slash maybe once or twice during the fight after Riplimb is down (when all healers should be focused on you anyway).

His melee doesn't hit any harder in 25 than it does in 10. The Arcing Slash difference is significant, but it's not 80k and it's easily healable.

If you're losing tanks to "really huge spikes" it's because they stepped on an Immolation trap. That's really the only explanation.


these can happen at the SAME time

Also not true. It's either melee or Arcing Slash. He doesn't do both at the same time.

Bigbad
09-09-2011, 01:50 PM
Our bear was taking 75-77k hits & arcing slashes on 25 HC tengenstein is correct, don't come in here spreading misinformation if your doing 10man normal modes (no offense)

Loganisis
09-09-2011, 05:01 PM
Given this was about 25m normal... I went and dug up a parse on WoL from a top 50 DPS parse, so it may not be perfect, but here ya go...

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-198mf99bh0jwxba5/details/22/?s=138&e=529

Avg. Melee is 64k on a wartank - that's after block, not before.
Arcing slash is 94k avg.

25m normal shannox hits like a truck, especially after both dogs are dead and melee and arcing slash can overlap within fractions of a second. Add in jagged tear on top of that...

Peca
09-10-2011, 08:00 AM
When we did first time Shanox HC I had almost 0 gear from FL raids (25 raid ).There was spikes but when we figured when they happen ,there was no issue.After he throw spear and when you kite ,first hit that he lands on tank will be dot+mele and possible slash.That is what cds are for,and you get trough with no problems.First boss in ToC had same mechanic so nothing new.If raid is doing properly their tasks he is most of time without spear so his dmg is going down as fight progress,cause his timer for spear throwing is lower as fight progress.

But he is only boss in FL that is sometime scary for tank.Rest is rly non issue .In raids I am never over 200 k hp as warrior and that is rare,I didnt do one raid with 2x stam triknets.

swelt
09-10-2011, 05:39 PM
I've tanked both normal and heroic in both 10 and 25 man. The burst damage is really only a scary factor of 25 man and it's almost a non-issue in 10 hc (it absolutely is a non-issue in 10 normal). If you've only done 10 man, you need to understand that 25 man has 'burst damage on tank' as an extra element in the encounter design. That's not a big problem, as 25 man raids have that many more healers to handle it, but it certainly is an encounter feature that 25 man raids have to deal with which 10 man raids do not. Tanks in both raid sizes should look to have a few more hp (e.g. 1 or 2 stam trinkets) than they would for most other T12 encounters.

Kerchunk
09-12-2011, 06:45 AM
Our bear was taking 75-77k hits & arcing slashes on 25 HC tengenstein is correct, don't come in here spreading misinformation if your doing 10man normal modes (no offense)

Well the topic and discussion are around 25 NM, not HM so don't come in here spreading irrelevant information if you're not paying attention, etc., etc. (no offense).


Given this was about 25m normal... I went and dug up a parse on WoL from a top 50 DPS parse, so it may not be perfect, but here ya go...

Not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like you went through the effort of finding a fight in which Rageface was killed incredibly early (2m46s) and the time it took the raid to down Shannox after the 2nd dog is really long (1m16s). This means Shannox had 30% enrage for 2m29s and a 60% enrage for 1m16s for a total of 3m45s of intense damage.

The "Burn Rageface immediately" strategy is good for learning the fight and downing 10 NM, but clearly not ideal for 25 and certainly not for HM.

Check out a parse (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d7rw45qhbatbeqdc/?s=1214&e=1529) in which Rageface was kept alive until it was time to kill Riplimb; you can see that not only is Shannox gimped (29K average melee, 48K average Arcing Slash), but the entire fight is made much less damage intensive - 58.6K DTPS versus a whopping 76K DTPS. As long as Facerage is dealt with - which should not be a problem given the available DPS in 25M - this is your ideal strategy. In this parse, Shannox is enraged for a paltry 0m47s - a full 2m58s less than your parse.

So, it might be wise to adjust your strategy as opposed to fumbling around trying deal with the massive spikes and re-gearing your tanks for a single encounter. But, that's just my advice; I don't want to go spreading any more misinformation or anything.

Loganisis
09-12-2011, 08:30 AM
The "Burn Rageface immediately" strategy is good for learning the fight and downing 10 NM, but clearly not ideal for 25 and certainly not for HM.

So, it might be wise to adjust your strategy as opposed to fumbling around trying deal with the massive spikes and re-gearing your tanks for a single encounter. But, that's just my advice; I don't want to go spreading any more misinformation or anything.

Actually, I just looked for lower end top parses to avoid pure cheesing mechanics and then US servers so I could read the debuffs.

As for Rageface burning not being viable for 25m - I don't see why not - you ignore him other than breaking on heroic, so keeping him up doesn't really 'teach' you anything since you have DPS on him anyway (more than just to break him) so you kill both dogs between 30.1 and 35% on Shannox.

We found it a far more effective strat on 25m, simplifying the fight tremendously - and is actually more similar to 25m - where you only have 1 or 2 DPS on him the entire time.

****

And further to the point - tank gear is still primarly surviving a 'worst case' scenario - same as in WotLK - it's just that the 'worst case' is far less worse (compartively) than in WotLK where you were trying to turn 1 shot into 2 shot into 3 shot. This is still the only fight I've tanked where I felt like pure EHP would be valuable rather than having 'enough' EHP from gear and focusing on smoothing incoming damage after that.

So it really wouldn't matter if the near 1-shot effect happened for 2/3rds of the fight or 1/3 of the fight - if it can happen - you still need to gear for it or hope it doesn't happen. But it isn't as bad as it seemed - once you get the mechanics down, it's not at tough as it seemed at first.

Though just to be safe, have your bear tank him ;)

Kerchunk
09-12-2011, 12:31 PM
As for Rageface burning not being viable for 25m - I don't see why not

We're discussing huge hits, spikey damage and major problems keeping tanks alive to the point of considering new itemization strategies. I think this entire thread is a big "why not," isn't it? If the problem in question was fight complexity (too much movement, losing DPS to Rageface, etc.) then we could suggest complexity reduction measures like killing Rageface sooner. But, if the problem at hand is "too much damage on the tank" then surely the obvious solution is one that cuts outgoing tank damage by 30-40% outright.

If your raid is to the point gear/experience wise where it's irrelevant, that's fine for you - but clearly the OP and others haven't reached that point yet. Adjusting their strategy to leave Rageface alive longer is probably going to be a lot easier than "fixing" their tanks through re-itemization or some such nonsense.


So it really wouldn't matter if the near 1-shot effect happened for 2/3rds of the fight or 1/3 of the fight - if it can happen - you still need to gear for it or hope it doesn't happen.

Cannot possibly disagree with you more on a very fundamental level! Basic raiding strategy (and indeed basic math) calls for reducing the amount of time spent in dangerous phases whenever possible through mechanics, Bloodlust/Heroism, personal cooldowns, etc. Every time the "near 1-shot effect" triggers there's a chance the tank will die. Fewer effects = fewer chances = fewer actual deaths.

In this case it's not 1/3 vs. 2/3 but more like 15% of the fight vs 66% of the fight... pretty significant difference. As you say, tanking is about avoiding the "worst case scenario." If you can make it so that worst case scenario isn't even possible for 85% of the fight... what better survival technique can you ask for?

Take an analogy: you have 100 miles to drive and two possible routes. The first route is 85% highway and 15% rickety wooden bridge. The second route is 33% highway and 67% rickety wooden bridge. While on the highway, you have a 1 in 10,000 chance per mile of dying in an accident. While on the bridge, you have a 1 in 100 chance of dying per mile.

Shouldn't be surprising that you have an 85% chance of surviving the first route while the second route only gives you slightly better than a coin toss. Sure, you can take steps to make the second route safer like airbags and seatbelts, but why fuss when you could just stay on the highway in the first place? ;)

swelt
09-12-2011, 02:32 PM
Spikey damage on the tank in 25 man Shannox is an issue *before* rageface dies. Once rageface is dead, the healers that were covering the rageface target are free to heal the tank and without interruption from facerages, which more than compensates for the minor damage uplift. It's not an unmanageable issue by any means, but it is a factor that 25 man raid groups need to factor into their strategy. Blizzard do this to give healers in the larger raid size something to keep them challenged, because otherwise this fight would be boring for healers. In 10 man, healers are already stretched enough covering the 2 tanks + the rageface victim.