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Aliena
06-29-2011, 02:04 PM
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Hello and welcome to the Firelands raid guide! My name is Aliena and in this video I'll show you all you have to know about Beth'tilac, one of the first encounters you come across in this new raid instance. This guide is up to date as of patch 4.2, but some details may become incorrect or even irrelevant in the future.

Beth'tilac is a two-phase encounter - for the first phase, you'll have to split up your raid into two teams and deal with a lot of adds, while the second phase is a stationary burn in which you have to kill Beth'tilac before raid damage becomes overwhelming. We defeated this fight with 2 tanks, 7 healers and 16DPS, but similar raid configurations may work just as well. Less healers, for instance.

For phase 1, you'll need a team consisting of 1 tank, 2 healers and about 3-7 DPS that's assigned to deal with Beth'tilac herself, who upon the start of the fight will retreat to an upper platform. The rest of your raid stays downstairs and takes care of the various adds that Beth'tilac will summon. The amount of DPS that can join your upstairs team to fight Beth'tilac herself is dependent on how many DPS you need downstairs to deal with the adds in a timely manner.

Preferably, you'll want your AoE DPS downstairs, while single target DPS is better suited for upstairs.

As soon as you engage Beth'tilac, she'll retreat upstairs and barrage the raid with AoE damage until people join her on her web. Shortly after, a lot of Cinderweb Spinners will appear. If taunted, they'll drop to the ground. They don't deal a whole lot of damage and target random players. When you defeat them, the strand of spidersilk they descended on will turn into a vehicle that your raid members can click to reach the top of the web and fight Beth'tilac.

Make sure that your tank is the first person to climb up and that at least one healer follows right after. This should be communicated on vent, and DPS should wait until both tank and healer secured a line.

Once on Beth'tilac's web, there's some AoE damage that goes out, but your downstairs team will not have to deal with any more AoE damage until Beth'tilac is by herself again. Tanking her is easy, and the only thing your upstairs team has to look out for are meteors that come down on random raid members and will deal significant damage. Fire remains on the ground where they landed, so don't stand in it.

Beth'tilac will continuously lose energy, and once her bar hits zero she'll start channeling an 8-second spell called Smoldering Devastation. Anyone remaining upstairs when the cast goes off will die - yes, even through bubble, so don't even try. While she's casting this, every person upstairs needs to jump back down through the hole in the middle of the web and join the downstairs team.

Once she finishes her Devastation cast, Beth'tilac will go back to dealing AoE damage to everyone downstairs and sending more Spinners into your raid, so repeat the same thing you did last time: Kill the spinners and take the vehicles back up. She'll cast Smoldering Devastation three times before permanently joining your raid downstairs, so you'll have to repeat this pattern until then.

While your upstairs team is busy repeating this cycle, your downstairs team has to deal with two more types of adds - Cinderweb Drones and Cinderweb Spiderlings. The Spiderlings will move towards the Drones and should they come close, the Drones will eat them and gain an attack buff as well as health back, so your goal is to kill the Spiderlings before they reach the Drones.

The Spiderlings will always come from the Northwest, Northeast and Southeast corners, which leaves the Southwest open for your downstairs tank to drag the Drones to and tank them. Your AoE DPS should be split up into 3 groups to take care of the approaching Spiderlings from each direction. If you have hunters available, or other classes capable of AoE slows, you should utilize them to maximize the time you have before the Spiderlings reach the Drones.

We assigned 3 DPS to each corner, but you might need more or less depending on the DPS your raid is capable of. All other DPS remaining downstairs should focus on killing the Drones. If a Drone does not die by the time his energy is depleted, he'll join Beth'tilac upstairs and siphon her energy, giving you less time to DPS her.

There'll be a constant stream of adds throughout phase 1 even while your upstairs team temporarily re-joins you, so always make sure to kill all adds in a timely manner. Until new Spinners appear, your upstairs team should help out with any remaining adds.

Finding a balance of DPS for all the adds as well as the upstairs team is half the battle of the first phase. By the time Beth'tilac completes her third Devastation, she was at about 80% health for us and we still managed to kill her, but getting her lower in phase 1 would certainly make phase 2 easier.

Once Beth'tilac descends after her third Devastation, no more adds will spawn. If you have any adds remaining though, take them out as quickly as possible. Beth'tilac will cast Frenzy on herself periodically until she dies, and with each stack of Frenzy she gains, she'll do 5% more damage which applies to her normal hits as well as her pulsing AoE damage.

This sets a soft enrage timer - the shorter this phase is, the better. Other than that, this is a tank-and-spank phase. The tank that picks her up at the start of the phase should drag her to the middle of the room and the rest of the raid should stack up at her tail end. No one should remain within 10 yards of her current tank, as he'll stack up a debuff called The Widow's Kiss which makes him deal damage to others within 10 yards.

The Widow's Kiss also stacks up a healing debuff, and after a while, he'll barely be able to be healed at all. At this time, your offtank should taunt Beth'tilac while your main tank runs out of the raid to reset his debuff.

If needed, make good use of Bloodlust, Heroism or Time Warp during this phase, and set up a chain of raid cooldowns such as Power Word: Barrier, Rallying Cry, Divine Guardian or Tranquility as her Frenzy stacks get higher. Tanks might also want to utilize self-cooldowns towards the end of the fight.

That's all the tips I have for Beth'tilac. As always, good luck and have fun! I've attached footage of the whole encounter in case you want to see how we dealt with the various mechanics in detail.

Predakhan
06-29-2011, 02:49 PM
For those guilds that have the gear this encounter can "cheated" by only sending a tank and two healers up top. This gives all your dps time to ensure the adds are killed properly. When she hops down it just becomes one long burn phase.

squash1324
06-29-2011, 03:56 PM
My guild worked on this boss a bit last night and our best attempt got the boss down to 12%. We kept all dps on the ground level to ensure the adds died in an orderly fashion, but we found that we just didn't have the DPS to burn the boss from 99.5% starting in phase 2. I suggest guilds send up 3 melee to the top (preferably rogues, enhance shamans, and fury warriors) so that you can burn her down enough in phase 1 to help out in phase 2. We also found that lusting at the beginning of phase 2 ensures better coverage overall since our healers went OOM by about 25% when we were initially burning lust at about 35%.

To give a general idea of what my guild's gear level is we are averaging about 361-362 right now. We're a guild that was 5/13 in 25 man at launch of the patch.

smep
06-30-2011, 12:09 AM
For 10m guilds:

Our guild found this fight ridiculously easy. Our biggest problem was the stupid tank (me) kept falling down the hole in the middle of the web. Most of us had 361-363 ilvl, and the guild had done 5/13 in 10m. But we also had two backups, one healer and one DPS.

We sent up a bear tank and enh shaman with a disc priest atonement healing. Got the boss to 78% by the time the burn phase started. She came down and ate one spiderling, but we still got the burn. All in all, it was the shortest learning curve for us. That was, at least, until we came on here and read the Shannox guide and all the comments.

Kieyr
06-30-2011, 05:45 AM
(10 Man) Tip for All us Warlocks for this fight!
"Theres a great advantage of being a Warlock during this fight (that is.. if you're fighting ontop of the web) after you've gotten yourself up the first time, you can then put a teleporter down and then easily just teleport yourself back up when its time :D"
(I posted this earlier on the Video itself! but thought it might help others later if it was posted here aswell, as for i got a decent numbers of positive response! n_n! Goodluck!)

Yoakie
06-30-2011, 06:38 AM
We killedher yesterday. We moved 2 healers, 5 melee DPS and 1 tank up the web (5man) andhad little difficulties with this fight.

The raidshould aim to get Beth’Tilac to phase 2 with about 70% HP. Damage will quicklyramp up in phase 2 which makes healing extremely hard at the end.

Theassignments to 3 different corners worked wonders. We had raidmarks up in everycorner and assigned 3 (Ranged DPS) to all corners. Make sure to havestuns/slows ready in every corner. There is a good guide with screenshotsavailable at http://www.25man.com/firelands/bethtilac (http://www.25man.com/firelands/bethtilac). Worth a shot to check it out. It get frequently updated.

Carighan
06-30-2011, 06:59 AM
We had issues with the 10man version of this yesterday, as the spinner's random damage kept overwhelming us when leaving them alive - slowly, more and more spawned.

On the flipside when we tried to taunt them down and kill them, the mix of the tank having to move around and the DPS lost that way meant the downstairs team ran into issues with DPS.

Is this just a pure DPS problem?

faralia
06-30-2011, 11:10 PM
The healing... the horrible, horrible healing... But fun!!! Loved this encounter! We three shotted it (we don't count our first attempt though, somehow the tank up top took fall damage when coming back down and died), and it feels just right for a normal mode encounter. We sent up one melee DPS, one healer, and a tank. I would suggest NOT sending up a holy paladin as the only healer -- there's AoE damage up there and it's a bit much to cover. While it is possible, it's much easier to do with a class with more AoE healing capabilities.

Paladan
07-01-2011, 01:33 PM
Ok, from all the comments I'm reading this encounter should be one of the easier encounters. My guild was only 11/12 when the patch hit because we formed later so our average item level of raiders that night was around 359. Is this too low for this encounter?

The problem we kept running into was we would kill a spinner, and another would spawn right in its place. We killed possibly 8 of them and they just kept spawning. Is this correct or no? About 30 seconds after our "upstairs" team got up there the drone spawned. So we were dealing with the spinners, a drone, and the spiderlings all over the place.

I also noticed that ONLY a form of taunt (Hand of Reckoning/Deathgrip) would bring the spinners down. We had some DPS on spinners that would DPS them and they would just sit there on their string. After they died, no vehicle dropped.

Does this sound bugged or are we just doing it wrong?

Thank you for the replies in advance

Aggathon
07-01-2011, 01:41 PM
The no vehicle drop thing makes sense, but the spinners to almost no melee damage, so if each of your tanks taunt one and then like a plate DPS taunts the other, those should be sufficient for your 3 people to go up top (a tank, a healer, and 1 DPS, probably the plate DPS).

We then had 4 DPS on the ground and we divided up the priorities. We had 1 ranged on spinners full time, his job was to make sure they were dying as they spawned, and only if there weren't any to get the drones. The other 3 DPS were assigned to spiderling duty then drones. If spinners were out of control and spiderlings were under control, then I would float and help with spinners. Doing a lot of damage to beth'talic herself in this phase isn't a huge deal, and you guys probably have more than enough gear for it.

The tricky party is going to be making sure to kill the spiderlings that spawn right as beth drops for phase 2 before they get to her. Killing these befor finishing up any other spinners or drones should be your DPS's top priority. If beth is ~80% when phase 2 starts, you should be fine. My guild is better geared than yours, but we started at 97% (spiderlings hit beth) and still killed it the first time we saw phase 2 with no deaths. If you guys kill the spiderlings before they get to beth so she doesn't heal, you should have no problew getting her dead at your gear leve. Just be sure to start using whatever raid cooldowns you have at about 30%, so aura mastery, priest bubbles, AMZ, tranquility, etc.

Paladan
07-01-2011, 02:05 PM
Alright, thank you for the information, I believe one of our problems was definitely add control. Unfortunately we were also sending up 2 DPS as opposed to 1. I realize now this was a big problem and one of the reasons we were having so much trouble with the adds.

We will give her another run for her money. Thank you again for the information Aggathon.

Stern
07-02-2011, 09:32 AM
I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere along the way, my 10man group will be heading into FL in a few hours for the first time, and I was wondering, do all the spinners have to be killed? Or just the ones you taunt down to get the strings?

smep
07-03-2011, 09:14 PM
@Stern

The spinners will come down off of their webs when they're taunted, and they switch from just spamming the acid bolt thingy to melee swings combined with acid bolts. Either way, they don't hit hard and can be tanked by anyone in the raid. The trick is to make sure enough of them die while still keeping up with the Drone damage.

also, I posted earlier that this fight was just too easy. Upon doing the fight again with two other guilds, I realize that we might have just gotten lucky with who was assigned to who for DPS. If you are reading these posts and thinking about your group taking on the fight, put some good thought into who would be best in which role, be it ranged AoE'ing, or focus firing spinners, etc.

In one group I went with, we decided that one DPS was to go upstairs on the first of the three mini-phases and blow all cooldowns, because for the 2nd and 3rd he just stayed down and helped DPS spinners.

I guess it depends on how strong your DPS are.

jr3L
07-04-2011, 09:34 AM
We're sort of undergeared, like 357-59, and we seem to be getting up to 30 frenzies in 10man. And sometimes our tanks will just die. Sometimes it's in the beginning of the phase and our tanks would just die.

Does it sound like we might be undergeared for this? We are executing everything just fine. DPS ranges from 15k-18k.

Quinafoi
07-04-2011, 10:36 AM
I have been noticing that issue to on the 10 man area. Those that are in 10 man normal gear simply aren't able to generate sufficient DPS to actually kill the boss. All things aside, top end players playing absolutely perfect could easily kill the boss in 359 gear, the problem is those people have been farming heroics for months and aren't in 359s.

Right now the DPS quota for this encounter seems a bit too steep for people who would be entering a normal mode encounter after having cleared normal mode tier 11. You have no room for mistake. You can't let the boss heal at all. You have to get them down a fair amount, like 30%, before the final phase.

I would actually not be surprised to see this encounter get a nerf in 10 man normal very soon. I think it's a little overtuned for those that would only have normal mode gear but not everyone can do over 20k single target DPS in just 359s. I'm not one to point out issues in content difficulty lightly but I believe this one is currently overtuned for 10 man normal based on what 10 man normal raiders would have coming out of tier 11 normal modes.

jr3L
07-04-2011, 11:34 AM
I have been noticing that issue to on the 10 man area. Those that are in 10 man normal gear simply aren't able to generate sufficient DPS to actually kill the boss. All things aside, top end players playing absolutely perfect could easily kill the boss in 359 gear, the problem is those people have been farming heroics for months and aren't in 359s.

Right now the DPS quota for this encounter seems a bit too steep for people who would be entering a normal mode encounter after having cleared normal mode tier 11. You have no room for mistake. You can't let the boss heal at all. You have to get them down a fair amount, like 30%, before the final phase.

I would actually not be surprised to see this encounter get a nerf in 10 man normal very soon. I think it's a little overtuned for those that would only have normal mode gear but not everyone can do over 20k single target DPS in just 359s. I'm not one to point out issues in content difficulty lightly but I believe this one is currently overtuned for 10 man normal based on what 10 man normal raiders would have coming out of tier 11 normal modes.

Right on, I thought so too, for some reason 10man always seems a little harder, never any room for mistake. I knew we might be undergeared when around 30 stacks of frenzy tanks are getting hit for 110k lol.

We were able to get Beth down to like 78 at best before phase 2.

Libellus
07-05-2011, 01:18 AM
After fiddling around with this last night in one of our 10man groups, we decided that our main problem was the add control during phase 1. So we changed our tactics.

We had 1dps + tank + healer go up top until the first smoldering devastation and then only the tank + healer for the remainder of phase 1. Everyone else stayed down at the bottom killing adds.

She dropped down in phase 2 at just under 90% health, no adds up to heal her and we just burned her down. It was a close finish, but we did it. This approach seemed a lot simpler than trying to split our dps in 10 man, because the adds were really proving problematic. Admitedly the group slightly overgeared the encounter, with everyone in at least 359 across the board and a few 365, 372 and 379 pieces here and there as well, so a lower geared group might struggle with the P2 burn phase from 90%.

Baba
07-06-2011, 09:20 AM
We tried this on 25 man last night, and I wasn't happy with our dps split. We had 2 tanks of course, and 7 healers, that leaves 16 dps. What are suggestions for splitting the dps? Our raid is mainly 359 ilvl and we were carrying a couple of low dps.

And a specific question for spinners, we had a single range dps focus on them, but do they do less overall damage if they're all brought down to the ground asap instead of range dps taking them out while hanging?

Fiebs
07-12-2011, 06:31 AM
Ranged DPS | Spiderlings -> Spinners -> Drone
Ranged DPS | Spiderlings -> Spinners -> Drone
Melee DPS | Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings
Ranged DPS| Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings
Ranged DPS| Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings

Above is how I set our DPS' individual kill priority. This minimizes raid damage by prioritizing spinners, once they're dead we have three DPS (see above) switch to the drone. They were successfully burning the drone before its energy reached zero. Initially we started with drones->spinners, we found that we were able to keep up with the adds, thus we changed it to spinners->drone to save healer mana for P2 - After spinners go down raid dmg is minimal while they burn the drone.

Slowly, but surely, we began to get ahead of the adds (probably because we had 5 DPS down low, instead of 4). We had the final drone @ 50% when the final spinners dropped. Thus we sent up one of our "Spinners->Drones->Spiderlings" (melee) DPS to the top in the FINAL P1 energy depletion of Beth'tilac to knock off a solid 5-6% before we got our final devastation. Initially we sent up a DPS during the FIRST energy depletion, but we found that that ultimately put us behind on adds and we had to play "catch up" the remainder of the encounter.

We have not downed Beth yet (primarily due to raid time constraints) - our attempts with this strategy resulted in multiple sub 20% attempts. I'm confident that once we get more expience in healing P2 we'll have our kill. I hope this helps someone!

Tsy
07-12-2011, 08:02 AM
We did this encounter Sunday night. Our average gear levels are probably 360-365. After fidgeting with duties of the raid, here is what worked.

Tanks: DK, Warrior
Healers: Sham, Druid, Disc
DPS: Hunter, Mage, Warlock, Enhance, Boomkin

I had the Hunter killing spiderlings, the mage killing drones, and the boomkin killing spinners, and if there were no spinners, floating around helping wherever. The druid and disc priest stayed down below to heal them. Warrior tank stayed down below.

DK, enh shaman, warlock and myself (r. sham) went to the top.

I can't attest to what was going on down below, but what I do know is that a drone never came up to the top of the web, and when we descended for the 3rd smoldering devastation, there was one lonely spinner dangling on his web at about 10% health. All the other adds were dead.

The boss came down at around 68% health. We used heroism at around 30% health, and i think she had about 20-22 stacks of Frenzy at this time. When she was at around 1 million health, one tank died, but the other was quick to pick her up. She fell over a few second after that - I'm sorry - I did not think to check what her Frenzy was at.

I haven't uploaded the logs yet for this week, but I can when I get home and will link them here for anyone interested.

moonkin
07-12-2011, 04:33 PM
Hi everybody.

We've just killed the spider tonight using 2 tanks - 5 DPS (3 casters ) - 3 healers.

After 3-4 wipes at around 10% we managed to kill her running all cooldowns.

Our main problem was transition P1 - P2 with adds remaining and the boss gaining HP.

We decided to sent our War DPS 2 times up and the third time just to down the boss to 83% and then come back down to help killing the adds. (the tank would made 3-4% more).

However, even with all dps down the boss still gained HP from about 80% to 90%.

We managed to kill the 90% running all CD's one after one.

Our compo was:

tanks : pala / war

DPS: SP - moonkin - mage - DK - war

Heal: drood - chaman - pala

So if you have good DPS and heal and you turn your cooldowns the 70-75% can be 90% like us.

good luck with this encounter

Narina
07-12-2011, 05:56 PM
We're having some difficulties with this encounter, which surprised me because all in all it looked pretty simple.

Our comp:
Tanks: War (down), Bear (up)
Heals: Pally (up), druid and H priest (down)
DPS: Enh Sham, SP, Ass Rogue, Fire Mage, Frost DK

Had the Sham up top for the first 2 cycles and kept him down to help clean up for the 3rd. Boss was coming down around 83-85%.

Not having issues with keeping up p1, and the 5 dps downstairs for the 3rd cycle usually has drone under 25% and spiderlings down easy when she comes down perm. We even considered sending 2 up for 1st cycle, 1 2nd cycle, 0 3rd to get boss under 80%, but we're wiping too early in frenzy for that to be the difference right now. Priority order that worked for us was: Enh up top, rogue on drone the whole time unless dps called for help on a spiderling group, SP on spinners then drone, DK on spiderlings then spinners then Drone, Mage on Spiderlings then spinners then drone. Never had any issues with adds being left up this way.

Trouble we were having is Healing p2 when frenzy stacks got up. I set us up the following CD cycle:
SP Hymm at 20 frenzy
Pally Aura Mastery at 23
HP Hymm at 25 frenzy
Druid Tranq at 28 frenzy
Rallying cry when boss at 10% life

We were BL'ing at 20 frenzy as well.

We would get the boss to 35-40% health by 20 frenzy but our healers basically cant keep people up past 23-25 frenzy stacks. We're all around i361 gear, dps all pulls 18k+ ST dps, healers are pulling about 13-14k avg hps from my recount meters.

Usually the issue is easy to see but I'm not seeing it here. From all the reading I did I see people clearing the boss with our gear, we're just not quite handling the frenzy stacks well. Does anyone have any better tips for that?

We have very slight issues with healer mana in this fight, our Hpally gets drained up top, but he says he hasnt run oom yet, just been close. A comment here says not to put a Hpally up top, is it that big of a difference? We liked the idea since the pally can taunt his own vehicle.

Any ideas would help. We flew through Shannox after not getting started w1, but some of the raid is thinking about skipping beth til we have more gear and doing lord rhy.

moonkin
07-13-2011, 04:16 AM
Hi Narina,

gearing helps in this fight and you should be able to reach the 365 very easily getting stuff from PNj and why not from Tol barad.

I would suggest you to burn BL at the beginning of P2 as we did.

We sent up our pally heal up for the up phase.

You can also sent 2 DPS for the first cycle (DK should be a good idea, we've got a war).

Our raid was an average of 370 and it helps for healers DPS and tank to have more HP and mana.

However you should be able to kill the spider if you get in P2 without boss gaining HP.

Just try and try and it should go down.

I would also suggest to you if you switch boss to try Baleroc, we have found the mecanics very easy.

Good luck

Ghladum
07-14-2011, 11:48 PM
This fight has just about ruined two raid nights for my group. We are a 10man group - iLvl right under 359 since we never got a good foothold outside of one or two heroic T11 kills.

Anyhow - our DPS is sufficient on the adds down below such that we are able to send up a Rogue with the tank and healer on top of the web for all three cycles of the Smouldering Devastation. This means Beth hops down with ~74-76% HP for the last phase.

Our problem is that our DPS just cannot, absolutely cannot, get all of the spiderlings down fast enough, and the range at which Beth'tilac can consume and heal from juicing those spiderlings is absurd. So every attempt we've gotten to the last phase ends up with her dropping down at 75%, immediately healing up, usually to 95% HP, and then we burn out somewhere around 160-170% damage buff.

I'm just about positive that our group will be able to get this, it's just... it feels like a bug that you literally seem to have under 5-6 seconds to kill the Spiderlings on that last cycle, and that even when they are contained very far away from Beth'tilac (even considering the huge hitbox and the way that scales), she turns around and completely eliminates everything that the DPS has done up top for the entire fight from 40 or more yards away.

jedikuonji
07-15-2011, 11:52 AM
I'm just about positive that our group will be able to get this, it's just... it feels like a bug that you literally seem to have under 5-6 seconds to kill the Spiderlings on that last cycle, and that even when they are contained very far away from Beth'tilac (even considering the huge hitbox and the way that scales), she turns around and completely eliminates everything that the DPS has done up top for the entire fight from 40 or more yards away.

This has been our issue as well. We're running it on 25s and have her at anywhere from 80% to 90% in health when she comes down and then, bam, she's back to full or near full. On our best attempt last night we burned her from 98% to 2%, so it's frustrating to pretty much lose to what feels like bad timing with adds and her drop down. It's a little comforting to know that others have been there, and I suppose we'll just have to hit harder on those last adds. If anyone has some tip on how to get past that last add spawn before she comes down I'd love to hear it.

If nothing else, I suppose some more gear will KO the fight regardless, but it's still painful.

Fiebs
07-19-2011, 06:44 AM
Please notice that I'm writting this on 7/19/2011 - patch day - so what I'm about to say may be invalid as soon as servers come back up as this may be changed....

We just downed Beth last night, when she comes down from her web in the beginning of P2 she (recently) will tractor beam a spiderling from far away if there exists even one still alive. Thus when your up-top-crew comes down for the final time, call out for all DPS to burn any active groups (should be just one active group, the most recent to spawn) of spiderlings. Once they're down then they can go back to cleaning up any other adds left (probably just one half-dead drone) as they wait for Beth to come down. Granted, this transition is only 7-9 seconds, but that should be more than enough time for the DPS to burn the most recent spiderling group.

It USE to be that if the spiderlings got close to Beth she would eat them, now she beams them in reguardless of proximity. Hence why you need to have DPS switch and burn the spiderlings during that P1 to P2 transition. Again, this may be changed back to the proximity rule at any time, but as of right now (7/19/2011) she uses a beam.

Quinafoi
07-19-2011, 08:10 AM
Her ability to eat the spiderlings from a great distance was in the PTR that way back in early May. She always could eat the spiderlings from a long range as far as I'm aware, it never used to be different. Only the drones were restricted to melee range for devouring them.

*edit*
Which was just hotfixed for the first time later in the same day as my original post to nerf the range on her ability to heal.

Culture_Jam
07-28-2011, 12:15 PM
Quick question: What's the debuff threshold for tank swaps in P2? Is it situational/based on the tank or is there a magic number of when we should be swapping in P2?

Thanks!

Quinafoi
07-28-2011, 12:46 PM
The debuff in phase two you swap tanks immediately. It's a healing debuff that builds up naturally over time and will actually fade after a short while. As soon as you see it applied the other tank should taunt immediately.

Theotherone
08-03-2011, 01:23 PM
This fight is getting really depressing. We're going to try again this week. Wiped a lot last night. I'm getting used to being up stairs (still have moments of taking a web up right into meteor hole), but even when we get to second phase, she eats adds or the dps is sitting between 13 - 18k. Our RL now has me healing a tank and two dps up top on my pally, figuring we can get her down further before phase 2.

Fun times.

Quinafoi
08-03-2011, 02:59 PM
@Theotherone
What I typically do is first throw out raid markers in the directions in which the spiderlings spawn. Not right where they spawn but the direction they come from so it can be seen from the middle. We tend to call out where each wave spawns from each time they spawn by calling out the respective symbol. On the third Smoldering Devastation when that last wave spawns pay close attention to where it was called out from and have the tank immediately head as far away from it as they can. By simply pulling her significantly far away quickly enough you can often avoid her eating from that last pack. At the same time however this last set that spawns is the most critical for DPS to kill immediately. If you are sending a DPS up top you may want to have them stay down the third time to make sure adds get cleaned up faster. Our kill last week which was only our second we had her land practically on top of some Spiderlings and didn't actually eat any cause the tank was far enough away that she started moving immediately.

With your DPS you should probably be shooting for around 80-85% going into the last phase which should be able to accomplish with one DPS going up the first two times and a Bane of Havoc (on the pull) or maybe just two DPS one time, one DPS the second, and none the third. At around 80% give or take you will require an average of 90k raid DPS to kill the boss in about 3 minutes which is the mark where most raids are getting their first kill. Cooldowns will generally only get you to about the 3 minute mark. Depending on when you burn Heroism/Time Warp will determine when you want to start using cooldowns. If you burn it earlier (say on the first tank swap) you'll want to start chaining cooldowns the weaker cooldowns around 40% health left on the boss. If you save it for a little later you'll want to start burning cooldowns a little sooner at say 45-50%. I typically order my cooldowns by doing all the throughput cooldowns (i.e. Tree of Life, Tranquility, Hymn) prior to the mitigation cooldowns (i.e. Spirit Link with Rallying Cry, Aura Mastery, Divine Guardian, Power Word: Barrier).

Theotherone
08-04-2011, 08:58 AM
Thanks Q, this is helpful.

What we have now is a fundamental difference in philosophy in our raid group. Our RL is hung up on the dps numbers, in that when we send 1 dps up we get her down about 3 million or so; she comes down, heals up and then we wipe at about 8 million. Our RL believes that even if she doesn't heal up, we're still about 5 million short i.e. we just don't have the dps for this. My preference is to keep pushing her to phase 2 use 1 dps (although I like the idea of scaling down the dps each time up), don't let her heal and burn her. During the burn phase she's a target dummy and the dps numbers from phase 1 are kind of bogus.

Anyway, we'll see what happens tonight, but I like your advice Q. If we don't change bosses I'm going to suggest it. I also think we're really geared enough for the fight, it's a matter of just pushing it (everyone sitting at around 365 ilvl). For God's sake we have pugs on the sever downing her and groups bringing alts with blues downing her.

It's so freaking frustrating.

Quinafoi
08-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Do you have any logs? How many stacks of Frenzy is she at when people start dying? What is your composition like?

I don't think you'll be able to kill her if she heals at all. I think that is relatively clear. However figuring out where the problem lies may be a bit more difficult. If stacks are simply getting too high, it may be that DPS simply isn't doing enough (perhaps too distracted still cleaning up adds at the transition, this is another reason I favor not having any DPS go up the third time). If stacks are lower when people start droping off it may be relative to your composition and simply lacking as many cooldowns to cope with the rising damage.

Saif
08-04-2011, 11:49 AM
One thing I can say about this fight is that DPS numbers lie.

Our DPS ranged from 21k (SPriest & Boomkin - in charge of Spiderlings and Spinners exclusively) to 15k (SPriest & Frost DK - exclusively in charge of Drones) to 13k (Arcane Mage - exclusively on the big spider on all 3 up-phases). Those numbers might make it seem like we're way too low to get it done, but the swaps in phase 1 deflate numbers considerably and then inflate them during the do-nothing-but-burn phase 2.

She comes down with ~80% health. We have the Mage running down a few seconds early to help the clean-up team make sure no Spiderlings are out and the Spider tank (me) moves away from any remaining Spiderlings to give the team a few extra seconds to knock-back/burn them. On transition, Spiderlings > Drone. Drone should almost be dead anyway.

At that point, the two tanks flank the boss so we can taunt without moving or getting fire on anyone with the debuff and the rest of the raid is clumped up tight for heals under her butt. Hero at 50% and that comfortably gets her down before the damage gets out of hand, though the last few AoEs will need raid-wide CDs.

Before we sent up the Mage, we were wiping ~30% which made the fight and the DPS numbers seem like we were way undergear.

Sending up the mage just as an experiment to see if we could get close led to a very comfortable kill-shot. This does require your ground team to be on top of stuff making sure Drones are down in time, Spinners don't add up and Spiderlings are killed very quickly.

As an aside, we send up a resto-druid instead of the Holy Paladin as healing on the move is much more comfortable for her without draining mana and the added benefit of HoTing me up when I take the web is a good buffer for the time it takes her to get the 2nd web and come up.

Theotherone
08-04-2011, 12:03 PM
Thanks all. We don't do logs. Best I can tell we're at about 26 stacks when things start to go tits up. The comp is:

Tanks: Druid Druid is my responsibility up on Beth (We've gotten used to each other and time going up webs really well)
Pally.

Healinng : Holy Pally (me)
Druid
Driud

DPS
Arcane Mage
Arcane Mage
Assassination Rogue
Elemental Shammy
Survival Hunter

That's the core group, if we're missing someone we switch in a Kitty, Warrior, Shammy or Hunter. Depends on who's around.

My pally is one of the better geared toons in the run, but not by a lot; so we're all pretty much in that 360 - 366 range for gear.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/alexstrasza/Jackstraw/simple

Saif, your run sounds about exactly as ours has been going; your group sounds to be about dps wise pretty close to what we're seeing. This gives me hope.

I realize it's just a matter of time, but what I don't like doing is putting in a couple weeks (well 6 raid nights) on a boss, finally getting the rhythm down; then suddenly switching and learning something new. Seems a waste of time.

Quinafoi
08-04-2011, 01:52 PM
I think the biggest issue you will have is a shortage of damage reduction cooldowns. As such, I'd recommend saving Heroism/Time Warp for it's buff to healing throughput until later in the phase as one of your survival cooldowns. I'd try to shoot for around 40% health to use it. You will likely use a cooldown to get to that point (probably one of the two Tranquilities).

Buyakha
08-04-2011, 09:45 PM
My guild is having major difficulties on this boss even tho everybody is saying how easy it is. We are fairly new to FL, and we have only managed to kill Shannox. We have been trying Beth for 2 nights and it has been just awful. We would appreciate your help trying to identify whats going on and why this is going so horrible.


Raid Comp: (ilevel)
Resto Druid (370)
Resto Shaman (365)
Holy Paladin (361)
Prot Paladin (370)
Prot Warrior (369)
Hunter (365)
Hunter (371)
Shadow Priest (365)
Warlock (363)
Rogue (367)


This is what we do so far but we are not even getting passed the 1st Devastation


1. On pull we stack on the boss and kill the adds. Prot Pally, Holy Pally and Rogue go up.
2. Prot warrior tank the drone aside the raid. Warlock on the drone the whole time
3. SPriest and Hunter 1 on Spiderlings all the time
4. Hunter 2 on Spinners all the time


By the time the 1st devasation ocurrs, the guys up top come down, start killing adds and we all wipe because either we have another drone up, or we have too many spinners.
So my question is, is this a DPS issue?
Is our gear too low for this boss?
How much DPS should the group be pulling to effectively manage the kill all the adds in time? (Min)
Are we positioning incorrectly?


We will appreciate any help.


Thanks

Narina
08-04-2011, 10:02 PM
Buyakha,

From your ilevels it doesn't look like it should be your gear, we've now downed him a few times with lower avg ilevels, and we send 2 dps upstairs until the first devastation. It sounds like your dps just might not be doing things well.

We have a SP on the spinners and a mage/frost dk on the spiderlings until the first devastation, then we have our enh shammy stay down to help on drones. The SP kills spinners then is onto drone. The DK kills spiderlings>helps with spinners>drone, the mage spiderlings>drone. We've never had any issue with spinners still being up when a devastation hits, and we've never had an issue with killing the first drone on time... so I'm thinking its probably something your dps is doing. Are your Spiderling team just standing around looking/waiting for the next set of spiderlings? Your SP should definitely be at least dotting spinners after each spiderling phase.

The other thing we do that helps is tank the drone close to the center where the spinners drop from so he can taunt them down. He only kites to the unused corner when/if spiderlings get close. This makes for less moving for the dps on spinners as well, they should always be in range of drone/spinners right after a spiderling spawn. Also helps our Enh Shammy help with some splash damage while killing drones.

Hope that helps.

Quinafoi
08-04-2011, 11:26 PM
If the warlock is destruction, they should use Bane of Havoc on Beth'tilac on the pull in order to do 15% of their damage to her even while below. I'd actually recommend sending up the Prot Warrior rather than the Prot Paladin due to the magic reduction of shield block. Also when the third devastation occurs a warrior has better mobility if Beth'tilac needs to be pulled away from where the last set of Spiderlings spawned from. For DPS I'd recommend having both the Hunter and the Shadow Priest on Spinners and switch to the Drone once all Spinners are dead. And if you have your paladin on the bottom they don't necessarily need to be in range of Spinners to taunt them, they just need to be in range of the player (likely the hunter) for Righteous Defense. If Spinners are on the drone tank they can use AoE to kill them and apply some damage to the drone as well. You want to kill the Spinners as fast as possible and do catch up on the drone. Your hunter assigned to them can distract them down and your protection paladin can opt to taunt them off once they have more than one down. Hunter and Warlock I'd have on Spiderlings for Frost Traps and Shadow Nova. Additionally your Restoration Druid should be able to help as well by using Wild Mushrooms, if they are Shadow Novaed in the frost trap the druid can easily use the stun duration to preplant three mushrooms at the edge of the trap and detonate them as they pass. Send the rogue up for two waves only. On the third wave keep them on the lower level to help clean up adds. Provided that DPS focuses on their assignments drones should die shortly before or shortly after the next one spawning. If you are having trouble dealing with the adds you should only send up one DPS ever and take advantage of Bane of Havoc for a little additional damage. If you have sufficient control of adds then you can afford to send up an additional DPS the first time. Make sure people are doing their jobs and not waiting for their job to come to them or switching to something else.

Theotherone
08-05-2011, 06:41 AM
I HATE PROGRESSION. So we wipe on this again last night for the first hour of the raid. Getting her to 12 million at one point. The issues are no longer up top (well expect constantly sending up two dps is ooming me for the start of phase 2); I can do that dance up there in my sleep now I've been up there so much, it's down below.

So, in typical impatient fashion we spend the next hour wiping on a different boss Alyasatrzor or whatever that freaking bird's name is. I'm convinced that the Blizz designers have a real gallows sense of humor since that fight appears to be designed as one big epic "don't stand in the fire".

Buyakha
08-05-2011, 06:56 AM
Thanks for the help / suggestions guys, we will change things around and will try again

Quinafoi
08-05-2011, 08:47 AM
@Theotherone
As a Paladin healer up top about the only recommendation I can make for mana management is to use your Potion of Concentration when you fall back down at some point because while she is casting Smoldering Devatastation there should be the least overall damage going out. Likewise you'd want to time Mana Tide for when all healers are on the bottom if you had one, sadly you don't. The big point I always try to drive home on an add management encounter like this is sticking to your priorities. DPS may feel the urge to improvise a little however provided each part of the machine is doing its job then the greater goal gets accomplished.

I'd still recommend only sending two DPS once, one the second time, and none the third in order to make sure adds are being handled. Course it isn't my raid to lead. Also without logs it is hard to see where any specific breaking points would be.

As far as throughput is concerned, my guess would be that half or more of the weapons in your raid could be replaced by 365 crafted ones, you yourself have already done so but the rest probably haven't. In my raid litterally the first raid night of the week where those patterns were first available I handed out 10 new weapons for 8 people (2 of the people including myself already had 378 weapons). This was a very easy way for me to directly impact the actual throughput of the raid and all I had to do was sacrifice a small portion of that massive surplus of liquid assets that were built up from selling unused T11 BoEs for the past five months. Simply going out and getting new weapons for people if you have the assets to afford it is a very easy way to help your raid in just starting new content.

Theotherone
08-05-2011, 09:15 AM
Thanks. What I do on each Smoldering Devistation is; first one, I pop Divine Plea when I jump down (I take avantage of the mana regen while I don't really have to cast); second drop down I use my Concentration Potion; by the last time Smolderind Devistation comes around DP is usually back up shortly after I jump down. I'm also judging every GCD I can.

I've leveled all the profession to 525 so first thing I did (my hunter is my BS) is make the healing mace (I had no luck on Chogall or Nef), Polearm for my hunter and tank one hander for warrior - then I ran out of orbs :). So back to farming them.

Since we've finished our FL raids for the week - very disappointing week - I may cobble something together for tonight and take some shots with just a friends group. I'm going to take your advice and keep at it.

On a side note, I got my T-12 chest today on the pally which gives me the two piece - the mana proc may help a bit.

jakkob4682
08-07-2011, 06:25 AM
Hey guys, my 10man group has gotten her down once and we've spent 3 days wiping since. Our web team is doing there job, our problem is that either we dont kill the spiderlings fast enough or we dont kill the drones fast enough. My comp is as follows
tanks - DK, Pally with Pally up top
healers - myself(shaman), disc priest, holy pally(pally up top)
ranged - arcane mage, fire mage, shadow priest
melee - assassin rogue, feral dps ( rogue up top and feral on drones full time)

we've been going with spiderlings as the first priority followed by drones then spinners, my question is that I've been hearing some guilds using all dps on spinners, then switching them all to the drones. Is it just our composition that's hurting us on the spiderlings I'm wondering? or should we zerg the drones right away then switch to spiderlings?

Quinafoi
08-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Well since you've alreadly killed her whatever you did will probably work fine. Changing strategies now may simply create more confusion for people. However if you're looking for recommendations here is what I have for you.

First of all I'd recommend switching your tanks. A DK's self healing and shielding will actually work better against Beth'tilac while a Paladin's Righteous Defense will work better on the lower level for taunting Spinners off of people once they are grounded.

General DPS allocation for 10 mans will generally consist of two DPS on Spiderlings, two DPS on Spinners and Drone, and one DPS that that goes above on the first two waves at least.

The DPS assigned to Spiderlings needs to move out and kill them quickly after they spawn, they should never wait for their job to come to them. As soon as you see the spawn warning you need to check the three spawn points immediately and deal with them. A healer on the bottom can assist by helping to scout for where the spiderlings are spawning since the DPS may be jumping from one spot directly to another without a break ever. Ideally you would want a hunter for the Spiderling team as Frost Trap is very useful. Without the snare, it is even more important that the DPS assigned to them get on them as soon as possible or they won't be able to kill them in time before they reach the drone. Your Drone tank shouldn't have to move, if they are moving a lot to avoid Spiderlings then your Spiderling team is failing.

The DPS assigned to the Spinners should include a DPS with a taunt ideally. In your particular composition this would be the Feral Druid in Bear form until all the Spinners are grounded, once they are all on the ground they could switch to cat form. You only need the taunt to bring them to the ground. Once they are on the ground if they are brought close enough to your Protection Paladin on the Drone they can easily be taunted off with Righteous Defense. Ideally you will want the Spinners and the Drone all on the tank so that the DPS assigned to killing the Spinners can cleave and hit the drone as well. You will want to actually clean up the Spinners before the Drone simply to reduce the amount of damage the raid is taking, they die faster. Once they are down you should have sufficient time to clean up the Drone. Make sure when a new Spinners are spawning that the Feral Druid in paricular breaks off to start taunting them down again until all 6 have been grounded again.

If I were doing DPS assignments for that composition I would have the following:

Assassination Rogue on the upstairs team.
Feral Druid and Fire Mage on the Spinner/Drone team.
Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage on the Spiderlings team.
Death Knight tank and Holy Paladin on the boss.
Protection Paladin, Restoration Shaman, and Discipline Priest on the lower level.

If the Arcane Mage and Shadow Priest are insufficient to deal with the Spiderlings in time then I would swap the Shadow Priest for the Assassination Rogue and have the Rogue slow the Spiderlings with Fan of Knives and Crippling Poison.

It is your raid however so do as you see fit.

jakkob4682
08-07-2011, 02:56 PM
I was wondering if rockbiter would count as a taunt for spinners. Also the attempt we got her down, we had a demo loc instead of the rogue.

Theotherone
08-11-2011, 06:36 AM
We finally beat her last night on our third try. It was classic progression got her to 3 million first try, 500k (oh that was painful) second and 36 stacks later on try three she went down. We changed our tank downstairs to our regular pally tank who was back from vacation. While I really wanted the shield, the pally healing shoulders dropped and being the only holy pally, I was happy.

Some things I've noticed on this fight, the damage upstairs is really, really spikey. At points our bear was taking very minimal damage and at times he was getting rocked, almost like WoLK healing. On first drop I hit Divine Plea, second Potion of Concentration, and at about 15 stacks DP was back up. Also, Judged more up top. Our Ele Shammy helped with Healing Rain.

The Pally 2 piece bonus was worth about 28k mana but my absorbs were 1500 per second on top of 11k hps. While it won't prompt me to mastery stack, I thinking it's not a bad stat if you're single target healing.

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement.


On to the bird tonight.

Shambells
09-07-2011, 04:51 PM
Just wanted to confirm that my off spec resto sham now has a weapon switch macro + rockbiter wep + unless elements to get his own spider line. Helps when you have to pug /shudder and the war tank is completely fail with vig.

Kerchunk
09-08-2011, 08:49 AM
The DPS assigned to Spiderlings needs to move out and kill them quickly after they spawn, they should never wait for their job to come to them...Your Drone tank shouldn't have to move...The DPS assigned to the Spinners should include a DPS with a taunt ideally.

I personally think you're over-complicating the encounter. Tightly stack everyone in the middle and let the Drone tank round up the spinners on his own. Spiderlings die so fast your DPS should not need to leave the stack to intercept them as you suggest - the Drone tank might have to nudge a bit in one direction or the other, but can always stay near the center to allow maximal AoE DPS and AoE healing. Assigning a DPS to pull down spinners seems counter productive. Let the tank do the taunting and the DPS can focus on doing his job.

A good tank who quickly pulls down the spinners and stacks them up trivializes the ground floor strategy. We send 2 DPS up top and still have plenty below to keep things clean.

Breyal
11-04-2011, 05:18 PM
Why is it that no one ever posts the 10 man fights? Is the 25 man pretty close to the same?

Kazeyonoma
11-06-2011, 01:48 AM
check out the strategy forums, outbackjack has plenty of 10 man videos. The problem is that our content creators are largely in 25 man guilds, and with the shared lockout, the option to do 10 mans for the videos, is not a possibility. Hopefully that'll change in the future though!

Gaidon
11-25-2011, 03:58 PM
check out the strategy forums, outbackjack has plenty of 10 man videos. The problem is that our content creators are largely in 25 man guilds, and with the shared lockout, the option to do 10 mans for the videos, is not a possibility. Hopefully that'll change in the future though!
Make Kz do et!