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Aliena
06-29-2011, 03:21 AM
HYRg_BMzup8



Hello and welcome to the Firelands Raid Guide! My name is Aliena, and in this video I'll show you all you have to know about Shannox, the first boss in this new raid instance. All info up-to-date as of patch 4.2., and some aspects of this encounter might become different or even irrelevant in the future.

We defeated this fight with 3 tanks, 7 healers and 15 DPS, but similar raid configurations may work just as well. For instance, this could've easily been done with 6 healers, and potentially 2 tanks.

Shannox is a fire elemental hunter that paths the main area of Firelands. Yeah, the one with all the trash. Once you clear a certain amount of trash packs, Shannox will yell an emote and start walking in circles around the main area. He's accompanied by two hounds, Riplimb and Rageface. Riplimb can be tanked, while Rageface will kinda just run around and eat people.

All three enemies have an enrage, and your goal is to get both Riplimb and Rageface to die when Shannox is at about 30% health, or as close to that as possible. Both hounds should die at about the same time, as Shannox will enrage as soon as one of them bites the dust. Bringing Shannox below 30% before his dogs die is not recommended, as they also have a mean enrage.

Upon engaging Shannox, your raid members should be spread out, with your main tank and offtank standing on top of each other and keeping the boss turned away from the raid and the melee should stack up behind the boss. Shannox can NOT be taunted, so it's imperative that your maintank and your offtank are first and second in threat at all times. Everytime Shannox uses Arcing Slash, which is a 120 degree cone cleave, he'll inflict Jagged Tear on his current target.

Jagged Tear inflicts stacking dot damage every few seconds and lasts for 30 seconds, so every 8 stacks - or whatever number of stacks your healers are most comfortable with - your main tank needs to let the offtank pass him in threat. Once the offtank acquires 8 stacks, the main tank needs to take over again, rinse repeat.

Your third tank's job is kiting Riplimb, whose main ability Limb Rip also inflicts Jagged Tear. How does the third tank get to drop his stacks, you ask? Easy. Shannox continuously throws out traps on random raid members. Some of them are Immolation traps, and look basically like a hunter's immolation trap. The other kind of trap he uses is Crystal Prison trap, which look like they have a miniature crystal inside. Both kinds of traps will arm after 2 seconds, so everyone in the raid needs to always be watching their feet.

I found having your camera horizontal instead of using birds' eye view makes seeing traps a lot easier. Both kinds of traps can detonate when either a player OR one of the hounds steps on them, and that's the whole trick to it. Your Riplimb kiter needs to be on the lookout for Crystal traps and kite the hound over it. That way, Riplimb will be trapped long enough for the offtank to reset his stacks of Jagged Tear.

While the Immolation Trap deals a lot of damage, it's not the end of the world if a raid member steps on it. The crystal traps on the other hand will encase a raid member until the crystal is defeated, and it has several million health. Not only that, since a triggered crystal will act as a solid block, you might line of sight the tank healers from the Shannox tanks, and tank deaths are very hard to recover from on this fight.

It's important to communicate newly spawned crystal traps on ventrilo, so your kiter has an easier time luring Riplimb over one.

The good news is that if you understand how to tank Shannox and Riplimb, the rest of this fight is very simple. The only other mechanics you have to deal with is Shannox' Spear Hurl and Rageface's eating of raid members.

Spear Hurl will always land near Riplimb and is easily identified by the meteor-animation followed by rings of fire it leaves on the ground. The rule to this ability is to never stand in the meteor area and to never stand in any of the firey-looking parts right after. Basically the same as always, stuff on the ground in this encounter is always BAD.

Rageface is fairly easy to deal with. He'll run around and fixate on a random raid member for a while. He does hit fast, but he doesn't hit terribly hard, so just make sure to assign at least one healer to look out for his current threat target. He also has an ability called Face Rage, where he'll fixate on a target and deal a LOT of damage. This is broken if Rageface takes 45000 damage in a single attack - or 30000 in the 10-man version. To make sure no raid member dies to this, you should have your healer macro "Face Rage" into their raid frames and make sure to keep a good team of ranged attackers on him at all times.

Again, your target is to kill both hounds at roughly the same time, which should be when Shannox is at about 30% health. Your melee should be on Shannox himself at all time, while your ranged team's DPS should be split up among the dogs.

For each dead hound, Shannox will inflict 30% more damage 30% faster, so with both of them dead you're looking at a 60% increase in both damage and attack speed. At this point, it's recommended to add a cooldown chain to the usual tank rotation, so make sure you communicate things such as Shield Wall, Pain Suppression, Hand of Sacrifices, etc.

This is a clear burn phase, so Bloodlust, Heroism or Time Warp should be reserved for Shannox's enrage. His spear throw turns into an ability called Magma Rupture after he enrages and will now also cause every raid member to take 40% more fire damage, so it's even more important not to stand in any of the little fire eruptions after this point. If you keep executing a good cooldown chain, Shannox should go down pretty easily. As always, good luck and have fun!

I've attached footage of the whole encounter, so you can see how we dealt with the various mechanics in detail.

Arkinedes
06-29-2011, 03:47 AM
Thanks very much, and good job on the kill.. would you recommend using 3 tank in the 10m version? or have a ranged kite the dog?

Aliena
06-29-2011, 03:58 AM
I imagine a ranged can kite just fine, but as I haven't done it, maybe someone else would be able to confirm for sure.

Fetzie
06-29-2011, 04:06 AM
If you tank riplimb far enough from the boss he can take so long to retrieve the spear that both debuffs run out (no refresh on the MT when Shannox does not have his spear equipped, no debuff on the OT when the dog isn't hitting him. You can also use traps to slow stack growth on the OT. You can probably also freeze riplimb when Shannox is about to throw his spear to gain another 5-6 seconds.

Darksend
06-29-2011, 04:13 AM
We used 3 tanks as well for 25 man, but apparently there is a strat that involves tanking them a billion yards apart so every spear throw is a guaranteed reset for both tanks. Also, a DPS warrior can intervene the stacks if you really really need a reset (they just need to be baller at guessing)

Another thing that I said in the other thread is that you can also have whoever is second on DPS (which if you are switching targets properly should be very clear who that person is) run far away at about 5 stacks. The next time the debuff has 10 or less seconds on it bop the tank (which will not remove the debuff) but it will take the boss long enough to run away and back that you will reset and it will not melee that dpser.

Also, has anyone else noticed a bug with getting battle rezed on this fight, now maybe the druid in my guild is just a super awesome battle rezer (he really is) but of the 4 times I died tonight 3 times I got battle rezed and was still at exactly the same threat I was at before I died. Oddly, the one time the warrior died this did not happen and we wiped because of it, but it happened enough to make me question what the hell was happening. Anyway, lemmie know if this happened to you as well., would be curious to hear about it.

Lore
06-29-2011, 04:45 AM
If you tank riplimb far enough from the boss he can take so long to retrieve the spear that both debuffs run out (no refresh on the MT when Shannox does not have his spear equipped, no debuff on the OT when the dog isn't hitting him. You can also use traps to slow stack growth on the OT. You can probably also freeze riplimb when Shannox is about to throw his spear to gain another 5-6 seconds.

We did something similar - still kept 2 tanks on Shannox and 1 tank on Riplimb, but had the Riplimb tank reset his stacks by positioning himself so that Riplimb would run over a trap on his way back to him after fetching the spear. It made kiting him over the traps really easy. Also, the way the timing works out, it let him alternate between a Crystal trap and an Immolation trap to put some extra damage on him.

TheConMan
06-29-2011, 05:14 AM
Tried this on 10 man last night. Had some difficulty.

I'm thinking 3 tanks is not really an option. Nor is trying to have the 2 tanks tank shannox/riplimb at the same time, as it makes the threat dump too hard to coordinate.

I'm wondering if the best option on 10 man would be to have 1 tank on shannox, 1 tank on riplimb, and have the riplimb tank w/ a friendly healer (pally beacon maybe) stay far away from shannox so that the spear run will clear both stacks. Maybe also trying to have a prison trap between dog and shannox (but from that far away, this seems challenging.

Any suggestions? I've seen only 1 10 man video posted since last night and they made it seem as though the tanks were swapping riplimb/shannox together.. But we really struggled with that. We were coordinating switching one of them fine, but then the other would get stuck for longer and both tanks would end up with fresh stacks.

Darksend
06-29-2011, 05:29 AM
Something I forgot to mention, we had much more success and finally killed it by just killing random-target dog (I am terrible with their names) right off the bat and just healed through the 30% buff. This has the advantage of making both tanks so far ahead on threat transitions become a joke. We decided to do this because all of our non-tank deaths were a result of a target change-> dead


This is broken if Rageface takes 45000 damage in a single attack - or 30000 in the 10-man version.

And also in part because of this. This logic escapes me, and my raid agreed with me when we finally realized why he was not swapping targets on big crits, because crit damage is not affected that much by having 15 more players in the raid, maybe 30K is just unrealistic for 10 man but we wer eback and forth all night about how to kill the random-target dog until we finally found that little gem of information, and the very first attempt we straight up ignored the other 2 and killed him first, was our kill attempt.

Halandir
06-29-2011, 05:35 AM
Another thing that I said in the other thread is that you can also have whoever is second on DPS (which if you are switching targets properly should be very clear who that person is) run far away at about 5 stacks. The next time the debuff has 10 or less seconds on it bop the tank (which will not remove the debuff) but it will take the boss long enough to run away and back that you will reset and it will not melee that dpser.

I'm pretty sure I remember BoP removing my stacks.


Also, has anyone else noticed a bug with getting battle rezed on this fight, now maybe the druid in my guild is just a super awesome battle rezer (he really is) but of the 4 times I died tonight 3 times I got battle rezed and was still at exactly the same threat I was at before I died. Oddly, the one time the warrior died this did not happen and we wiped because of it, but it happened enough to make me question what the hell was happening. Anyway, lemmie know if this happened to you as well., would be curious to hear about it.

We had issues with b-rezzes as well. Sometimes threat was dropped, other times the tank came up and had the same threat as before he died.

Reev
06-29-2011, 06:25 AM
I have a feeling that the "keep Shannox and Riplimb separated and kite riplimb through the crystal trap while he's retrieving the spear in order to drop stacks" strategy is probably the one that was intended by Blizzard. Blizzard hasn't had a taunt immune tank switching boss since... Hydross? And even Hydross had an aggro wipe, making tank switching easy.

My guess: Blizzard people would figure out the spear kiting strategy and go with it. When people on the PTR figured out a taunt switch strategy instead, Blizzard decided to make the bosses taunt immune to stop that sort of behavior, but many people went ahead with a tank switching strategy anyway, using oldschool vanilla WoW tank switching techniques. The spear kiting, though, was still the intention and probably optimal.

Halandir
06-29-2011, 06:41 AM
Something I forgot to mention, we had much more success and finally killed it by just killing random-target dog

Very interesting... hadn't thought of that option. Gonna file this away for my guild, could prove to be a much cleaner approach with more overall damage going out, but less random. I think it's easier for healers to keep up with increased damage on one or two targets than it is to react to random damage on random targets.

TeddyTauren
06-29-2011, 07:26 AM
Yea using the strat in the video makes threat extremely delicate and requires MDs and tricks to be reserved for the tanks to help switch quickly. spear throw trapping just requires a good offtank.

Also not mentioned in this video is the fact that dogs can trip the immolation traps. So what you want to do is kite rageface over immolation traps for more dmg and kite riplimb over crystal traps to drop stacks (right as shannox throws his spear). also rogues can disarm a trap every 70 seconds. We had our rogue clearing immolation traps near the crystal traps that riplimb was about to be kited into so that he didnt trip the immolation trap instead. When a dog trips a trap it gains a debuff called "Wary" which means it will not trip another trap for 23(?) seconds. So if you keep getting riplimb hit by immolation traps he'll be wary when you try to trap him in a prison and he wont be stuck long enough for stacks to reset.

mekell
06-29-2011, 08:08 AM
If you tank riplimb far enough from the boss he can take so long to retrieve the spear that both debuffs run out (no refresh on the MT when Shannox does not have his spear equipped, no debuff on the OT when the dog isn't hitting him. You can also use traps to slow stack growth on the OT. You can probably also freeze riplimb when Shannox is about to throw his spear to gain another 5-6 seconds.

Pretty sure this is the actual intended method for clearing stacks, but both (this and standard threat swap PITA mechanics) work, use whatever is easier. We didnt get enough attempts on him last night to figure this out, but we will get him next time!

leviticusx82
06-29-2011, 08:22 AM
So what would the most viable strat be for 10 man? After reading the posts so far i'm seeing a few potential options:

Strat #1 - Adapting the Tankspot 25 man strat to 10 man
Have both tanks stack on top of eachother with one tank tanking Shannox while the other tries to stay as close to pulling threat as is safe. When the tank currently tanking gets to 5 stacks he stops attacking all together and lets the other tank pull threat, then keeps up as closely as possible. Rinse and repeat. Depending on raid make-up you could use several abilities to aid this transition. As for Riplimb have a plate dps kite him around.

The only potential problem I see here is the dps kiter dying since he's not a tank or potentially losing threat since he's kiting but shouldn't be too big of an issue with a skilled kiter and good heals.

Strat #2 - A single tank tanking both Shannox and Riplimb then swapping both
Same as the above strat only one tank is tanking Shannox AND Riplimb while the other tries to stay as close to pulling threat as is safe. When the tank currently tanking gets to 5 stacks he stops attacking all together and lets the other tank pull threat, then keeps up as closely as possible. Rinse and repeat. Depending on raid make-up you could use several abilities to aid this transition.

The potential problem I see here is accidentally pulling threat so both tanks end up with Jagged Tear, especially at transitions, however, if managed carefully this shouldn't be an issue.

Strat #3 - Tank Shannox and Riplimb very far apart
Have one tank on Shannox and the other on Riplimb. The tanks tank their target 50-60 yards apart from the other (world raid markers are AWESOME for this) so that the stacks fall off by the time both Shannox and Riplimb are able to reapply the debuff. Careful not to bring them much further apart however or they will both get a buff and proceed to murder the tanks. Once both dogs are dead use everything you can to get the OT up to 2nd place in threat just incase the MT dies. If tank and healer CDs are communicated and cycled this should not be an issue.

Strat #4 - 3 tanks, 2 on Shannox 1 on Riplimb
With this strat you could go one of two ways. Either do it exactly as the Tankspot video did or have the third tank tank Riplimb really far away so as to reset the stacks of the debuff. With either of these you have two tanks at the top of the threat meter when the dogs are dead for swapping or in case a tank dies.

The potential problem I see here is with three tanks you're severely hurting on dps, especially since you'll probably want three healers too.


With any of these strats what would be the best way to split dps? Based on what Darksend's group did it sounds like the best way to go would be to kill Rageface, burn the boss down to 35%, kill Riplimb, finish the boss. Or once Rageface is dead splitting dps between the boss and Riplimb so that Riplimb dies when the boss gets to 30%. With only 4-5 dpsers it doesn't seem viable to split the dps more than two ways, though I could be wrong. Which of these strats do you guys think would work best, or if none of them what would you propose? What's the consensus on how to split the dps, or should you? Has anyone done this fight on 10 man successfully yet that would be willing to share how you did it?


EDIT - Post Fight Feedback
We dropped Shannox last night and found Strat #3 to be the best strat for 10 man. We put down world markers roughly 50 yards apart and tried to keep both Shannox and Riplimb close to these while the raid stacked inbetween. I tanked Riplimb and found that if I ran just past the marker and turned Riplimb around so my back was facing the raid and Shannox the spear marker would always be placed a little further away still. As soon as the marker was placed I would kite Riplimb toward the raid either as far as I could or optimally into a Crystal Prison Trap. With this method we never had an issue with Riplimb and Shannox being too far apart or with stacks not falling off either tank. I should note we also had a hunter using Concussive Shot on Riplimb as he brought the spear back to Shannox if I couldn't get him into a trap. Also of note, the debuff no longer stacks on the Shannox tank once the dogs die so even if he has stacks on him still they will fall off.

As for DPS we focused all DPS on Rageface, then Shannox to 35-37%, then Riplimb, then back to Shannox. The Shannox tank should have Shannox at 30% about the same time Riplimb dies. Our biggest problem was people either not getting out of or running into traps. Even with several mess ups and people needing burst out of Crystal Prison Traps (and me dying right as Riplimb died, hehe) we still got the boss down. With some practice this fight turned out to be not bad at all and rather fun. Good luck to you all!

mekell
06-29-2011, 08:38 AM
So what would the most viable strat be for 10 man? After reading the posts so far i'm seeing a few potential options:


Strat #3 - Tank Shannox and Riplimb very far apart
Have one tank on Shannox and the other on Riplimb. The tanks tank their target a mile away from the other (How far is far enough? Anyone know?) so that the stacks fall off by the time both Shannox and Riplimb are able to reapply the debuff.

The potential problem I see here is tank swapping once the dogs are dead because the Riplimb tank will be VERY far behind on the aggro table, assuming he still applies the debuff. This could make this strat unviable with only two tanks.

i dont think this will be an issue, if you are still getting the boss to ~35% before killing riplimb. At the 30% mark its just a soft enrage race imo. We personally will be trying #3 above im pretty sure, sub 30% or post both dogs dieing i dont think tank swapping will be neccessary. Just burn him down at this point before he stacks too many debuffs too high.

TeddyTauren
06-29-2011, 08:41 AM
How far is far enough? Anyone know?
With any of these strats what would be the best way to split dps? Based on what Darksend's group did it sounds like the best way to go would be to kill Rageface, burn the boss down to 35%, kill Riplimb, finish the boss. Or once Rageface is dead splitting dps between the boss and Riplimb so that Riplimb dies when the boss gets to 30%. With only 4-5 dpsers it doesn't seem viable to split the dps more than two ways, though I could be wrong. Which of these strats do you guys think would work best, or if none of them what would you propose? What's the consensus on how to split the dps, or should you? Has anyone done this fight on 10 man successfully yet that would be willing to share how you did it?

We had 2 dps on rageface and the rest focused shannox down to 40% and then the dogs to 5%. We also moved rageface through immo traps every chance we got which might have helped with the face raging. Our tank did most of the 40%-30% on shannox i think so that when the dogs were low shannox was ready to push. killed dogs and then went from there. our tank also didnt die during the burn phase. It was getting uncomfortable, and the OT was getting MDs just in case, but it was manageable. We killed him the first time we got him to transition correctly, that's deff the easy part of the fight.

We used 2 tanks and put the dog ~60 yards away. One of our raiders said that more than 60 yards and shannox enrages. Dunno where he got that info, but we didn't exactly want to test it.
But it isn't just about distance. You HAVE to trap the dog during a spear fetch or else stacks wont drop. The dog is also slowable.

Chobi
06-29-2011, 08:47 AM
Strat #3 - Tank Shannox and Riplimb very far apart
Have one tank on Shannox and the other on Riplimb. The tanks tank their target a mile away from the other (How far is far enough? Anyone know?) so that the stacks fall off by the time both Shannox and Riplimb are able to reapply the debuff.

The potential problem I see here is tank swapping once the dogs are dead because the Riplimb tank will be VERY far behind on the aggro table, assuming he still applies the debuff. This could make this strat unviable with only two tanks.


Something similar to this the easiest way. For 10 Man this fight requires 2 tanks, 3 healers, and 5 DPS.

Tank something like this:
[Shannox]--------------------------[The Raid]--------------------------[Riplimb]

One tank tanks Shannox, the other tank tanks Riplimb. Assign some DPS to try and push them even like in the original video strat. Its best to NOT have a class with built in slows on Riplimb since slows will build an immunity to being slowed. Someone with a controlled slow works the best, such as a hunter concussive shot.

When Shannox throws his spear, run Riplimb AWAY from the spear landing spot.
[Shannox]--------------------------[The Raid]----[Riplimb]-------------[SpearLandingZone]

It takes some adjusting to find the appropriate distance but the fight becomes trivial after that. If you don't have a hunter or character with controlled slow, you could pull Riplimb over Shannox Freezing trap BEFORE the spear is thrown.

When phase 2 starts, its a DPS race/keeping up the Shannox tank alive race. Kinda like phase 2 Chimareon

drjnova
06-29-2011, 09:39 AM
Yea using the strat in the video makes threat extremely delicate and requires MDs and tricks to be reserved for the tanks to help switch quickly. spear throw trapping just requires a good offtank.

Also not mentioned in this video is the fact that dogs can trip the immolation traps. So what you want to do is kite rageface over immolation traps for more dmg and kite riplimb over crystal traps to drop stacks (right as shannox throws his spear). also rogues can disarm a trap every 70 seconds. We had our rogue clearing immolation traps near the crystal traps that riplimb was about to be kited into so that he didnt trip the immolation trap instead. When a dog trips a trap it gains a debuff called "Wary" which means it will not trip another trap for 23(?) seconds. So if you keep getting riplimb hit by immolation traps he'll be wary when you try to trap him in a prison and he wont be stuck long enough for stacks to reset.

Would appreciate a little more info on "Wary" if anyone has it. Some people are saying that either dog tripping a trap applies this buff to both dogs. Others are saying only to the dog that tripped the trap. Anyone have a definitive answer?

Also anyone have any information on the immune to slow buff that they gain? How long does it last, how/when is it applied.

TeddyTauren
06-29-2011, 09:44 AM
Only the dog that walks on a trap gets the wary debuff.

The Leviathan
06-29-2011, 10:00 AM
Ok, the boss gains 30% dmg and attk speed buff per dog that dies. Both dogs enrage if the boss reaches 30% when they are still alive.

The boss can only apply debuffs on the tank when he has his spear. Riplimb can't apply his debuff while he's retrieving the spear.

For the sake of clarity I suggest we kill Rageface fast, and live with the 30% buff on the boss. Try to stand between Rageface and any immolation traps during this to ensure he hits as many of those as possible. Leave Crystal traps free for Riplimb. With 1 tank on the boss and the other on Riplimb spaced roughly 60 yards apart. The raid will be positioned between the 2. This means all traps will be dropped between 2 tanks making it far easier to line up trapping Riplimb and easily allow for both tanks to drop stacks every time the spear is thrown.

Here's where my own little idea comes into play. Because the boss is untauntable but will continue to apply stacks after he hits 30%, I suggest that any class with an aggro drop dps the boss after Rageface dies, and those without an aggro drop dps Riplimb.

Then when we are ready to push the final phase, everyone who was dpsing Shannox drop all or as much aggro as they can (vanish, feign, shatter, whatever) and allow the tank who was on Riplimb to quickly become 2nd threat on the boss while the dps without those abilities shouldn't have threat on Shannox at all. When/if the Shannox tank dies the next tank is lined up to hold him until we collect loot.

Any thoughts on this?

Griff
06-29-2011, 10:05 AM
Blizzard hasn't had a taunt immune tank switching boss since... Hydross?

Gurtogg Bloodboil.

/weep

TeddyTauren
06-29-2011, 10:09 AM
That's what we were trying to do with our OT, but the MT never died so it didn't end up mattering. The OT was getting to second, but we also have a DPS group of 2 hunters a mage a rogue and a boomkin. Lots of MD and threat drops there, I'm not sure how it would be without so many.

Also it's worth noting that shannox throws his spear near riplimb. If you have a warrior OTing or priests in the group they can leap/life grip to the opposite side of a trap to get riplimb far away quickly and still get trapped. The MT should also be watching the dog's progress so he can pull shannox away until his stacks drop. Leap was only up for every other trap though, so I ended up using it in extreme cases only (oh crap the rogue just ate that trap).
Have the OT take position by a trap and then set the MT according to where the OT is. Then keep the raid away from the OT so that rageface does walk into a prison trap. When spear is thrown walk around the trap so that riplimb walks into it. It doesn't really matter how close riplimb is to the spear, if he gets trapped and the MT is paying attention it should be long enough.

The Leviathan
06-29-2011, 10:23 AM
I assumed that was given if you're doing the separation strat.

Kensu
06-29-2011, 02:23 PM
We are a 10 man guild and we killed it last night without too much trouble. We killed Rageface first as this random damage was kinda a pain in the butt. Extra tank damage is way more predictable and less mana intensive for the healers overall. I was the offtank and I was resetting the stacks for both tanks as often as possible. I didn't do anything fancy, I just positioned Riplimb close enough to a crystal trap and pulled him into it as soon as the spear throw emote went out. Then I ran my pansy butt as far away as possible to reset my stacks. The main tanks stacks were also reseting as well.

We burned the boss down to 35%, burned riplimb down to 5% reset the stacks once more. Then killed Riplimb, lusted and killed the boss. Easy peasy.

Kemanorel
06-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Note: when Shannox is far enough from either dog, both the distant dog and shannox gain a buff called "Separation Anxiety" which increases damage and attack speed by 100%. This may have been introduced to counter the "tank riplimb 10000000 miles away" strat.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99835

Fetzie
06-29-2011, 02:30 PM
This is how we positioned our raid
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/349/wowscrnshot062911225046.jpg

Riplimb was tanked at yellow, the boss at green. The raid was spread out in between.

We used the run distance of the dog to reset the stacks, our hunter slowed Riplimb. Both dogs were brought low, when Shannox was at 33% we killed them both, lusted and killed the boss.

The Leviathan
06-29-2011, 03:19 PM
Note: when Shannox is far enough from either dog, both the distant dog and shannox gain a buff called "Separation Anxiety" which increases damage and attack speed by 100%. This may have been introduced to counter the "tank riplimb 10000000 miles away" strat.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99835
We go from getting an encounter journal to vague distances like "too great"? Anyone tested to see what the actual distance is yet?

Fetzie
06-29-2011, 03:29 PM
I was about 50-60 yards from the boss with riplimb and they did not enrage.

Jericho
06-29-2011, 06:34 PM
Don't get me wrong here, the 25man videos are really nice. I just would love to see a "point/counterpoint" with a 25m and a 10m video guide posted. A lot of us have gotten used to relying on Tankspot for good informational guides and with the 25man raid guild scene dying and the 10m thriving more and more we'd love to see a video of how to do it with 10. Especially seeing that its easier to manage multitanking mechanics involved in an encounter such as this with access to a third tank. Something a ten man is probably not going to have an immediate access to.

Kemanorel
06-29-2011, 09:36 PM
The person who does the large burst damage to break "Face Rage" gains a debuff called "Rage" where they get fixated by Rageface for 12-15 seconds.

The Leviathan
06-30-2011, 12:28 AM
For those looking for a good 10 man strat, we got in there and got the kill in just a few pulls using the method I listed at the end of the first page of this thread. I suggest laying the fight out on the road to avoid a lot of the clutter that can cause LOS in the field.

Vrayna
06-30-2011, 01:10 AM
Gurtogg Bloodboil.

/weep

Deathwhisper heroic, phase2.
Fun times.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 02:17 AM
Don't get me wrong here, the 25man videos are really nice. I just would love to see a "point/counterpoint" with a 25m and a 10m video guide posted. A lot of us have gotten used to relying on Tankspot for good informational guides and with the 25man raid guild scene dying and the 10m thriving more and more we'd love to see a video of how to do it with 10. Especially seeing that its easier to manage multitanking mechanics involved in an encounter such as this with access to a third tank. Something a ten man is probably not going to have an immediate access to.

Actually - it's probably easier NOT to use a 3rd tank. The 25m video even says in the intro 2 tanks might be possible. I run in a 25m guild, so we did run 3 tanks, but for all intents and purposes it was a 2 tank fight.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/Loganisis/Shannox.png

Basically your Shannox tank moves slowly along the blue line. Backup only when a trap appears under him. This slow and deliberate movement will keep any cleaving to a minimum.

The Riplimb tank tanks on red, far away from the main tank.

Blue is actually away from the road because we had some LoS issues with the rocks just off the road, so we tanked Shannox on the south side of those rocks to remove any LoS issues outside of raid members or Riplimb/Rageface becoming Crystal Trapped. And then red is as far into that corner as possible to maximize the distance between them.

The basis of this strategy is keeping riplimb slowed (mage slow, hamstring, PH, etc. Just keep him slowed). With positioning down, here's how we did it, we just had too many people stand in crystal traps for it to be clean...

1. ALL DPS Burn Rageface. the 30% attack speed and 30% damage buff is healable. We found rageface's sudden nomnom-ing of random players lead to more deaths than Shannox's first stack of Frenzy (which lead to zero deaths - immo trap tank fails lead to deaths). After Rageface dies, melee goes to Shannox, range goes to Riplimb.

2. Riplimb tank should always try position Riplimb so there is a crystal trap between him and Shannox - however this can be difficult to get when Riplimb returns the spear - so the OT must move to a spot to guarantee that on the return Riplimb will walk over a crystal trap. This is important for 2 reasons:
A) MT Jagged Tear stacks; and
B) OT Riplimb stacks.

This is how this fight becomes a 2 tank fight. With the slows on Riplimb, and Riplimb being far enough away from Shannox, the MT's stacks should reset AT LEAST every other spear toss, keeping the dot damage very manageable. And everytime Riplimb ends up in a crystal trap, the OT's stacks reset.

That's basically it. Tank them far apart. Keep Riplimb Slowed. Burn rageface to keep unexpected deaths at a minimum and then try to get Riplimb Crystal trapped as much as possible. Finally, Kill Riplimb at 31-33% (we called for full DPS switches and stop attacks to make it happen depending on which group was ahead at the time in each pull).

***

Now, in 25m we did have the luxuary of a few 'backup plans:
1. 2 Shannox tanks - however the 2nd tank never tried to gain aggro, they just needed to run their rotation as best as possible (with a warrior, you're rage deprived, though not starved, plus Vig helps) so they are #2 on the aggro chart in case something happens.
2. We had a feral cat pull off Rageface at 50% and DPS Shannox so he was #3 on the aggro chart, in case of a double tank immo trap fail so he could pop bear and finish Shannox off.

****

Other notes - DO NOT break people out of the Crystal Traps in the burn phase because if they get caught in a crystal trap, they are NOT going to make up for the DPS loss of getting them out. If they're trapped when Shannox hits double frenzy, they stay that way.

The raid will take a lot of AoE damage from Magma Rupture during the double frenzy phase, like Aliena said - alternating raid CDs (DG, etc) is going to be win for keeping everyone up. In 25m at least, this splash damage HURTS (100k isn't uncommon - I was well away from jets and took a 100k hit). It seems to be a quick cast, and as of our raid tonight, DBM and BigWigs did not have it on a timer yet. When it gets added to their times the burn phase will get much easier, but until then, anyone with a raid CD should have Shannox on Focus so they can see the cast - you're not going to have time to call it out on Vent (or even mumble if it's faster, it's a very quick cast).

If you're a healer - you're going to have to eat some heals - DO NOT choose to throw out a heal over moving out of a crystal trap. It may seem like a good idea, but a crystal healer has 0 HPS. Tanks have CDs and raids have BR for DPS/heals.

These are the things that seemed to make the fight go much smoother...

*****

I was raging yesterday, the fight seemed insane, with single mistakes by the tank wiping the raid (and as the tank, that was frustrating) - but given a second day to look at the fight, some time to absorb the mechanics (a good nights rest too) - the fight becomes much more manageable on day 2.

Shannox is not an easy fight to learn, but once you learn it, it's very much just an attention to the ground and placement fight. Avoid traps and keep Riplimb as far from Shannox as possible. The fight will make more sense the more different days you do it.

In reality, this is not a strong gear check, it's very much an awareness check. Guilds with good raid awareness will have this fight on farm fairly quickly - guilds where members complain about the RNG of the traps appearing under their feet will bash their heads against it for a long time.

Fetzie
06-30-2011, 03:16 AM
After a bit of poking around in our kill log from last night I found this:

code for the expression editor:

sourceName = 'Shannox' and targetName = 'Crystal Prison Trap' or targetName = 'Immolation Trap'This will list all trap summons in the log.

He always summons a crystal trap first. After each crystal trap he summons 2 immolation traps. You have about 25 seconds between each crystal trap, and about 8 and 16 seconds respectively after the crystal trap is spawned two immolation traps are spawned.

If you handle the crystal traps and the snares properly, Riplimb won't be hitting its tank for more than a few seconds at a time, I think the shortest we managed was about 6 seconds.

For those a bit more graphically inclined:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7826/shannoxtraps.jpg

Yoakie
06-30-2011, 06:30 AM
We used a 3 tank strategy in 25man which worked perfectly. It is advised to kill Rageface first and then DPS down Shannox to 35%. Afterwards proceedt to kill Riplimb then Shannox.

We had a DK tanking Shannox. He could stack up the Jagged Tear buff to 25 without dying! Just make good use of blood shield. Shannox does physical damage only so DK tanking is perfect.

Main difficulty is to make sure that Riplimb takes a long time to return the Spear in phase 1. There is a very well written strategy for Shannox at http://www.25man.com/firelands/shannox. This focus a lot on the important details of this encounter. Good use for people struggling here!

Radius
06-30-2011, 12:13 PM
I tanked riplimb at around 60yards from the boss, when I saw the red circle from the spear come up I ran (or leaped) toward the raid. Shammy totems would slow him down and when he went to pick up the spear he had to run all the way back, then 60 yards to the boss, then 60 yards back to me. I would say he ran a total of 160 yards (through totems and traps). I didn't have to depend on the crystal traps.

Loganisis
06-30-2011, 12:18 PM
I tanked riplimb at around 60yards from the boss, when I saw the red circle from the spear come up I ran (or leaped) toward the raid. Shammy totems would slow him down and when he went to pick up the spear he had to run all the way back, then 60 yards to the boss, then 60 yards back to me. I would say he ran a total of 160 yards (through totems and traps). I didn't have to depend on the crystal traps.

Honestly, you probably want to make him run through the traps - because that will use them up so your raid doesn't step on them XD

Krulz
07-05-2011, 12:49 AM
Strat #3 - Tank Shannox and Riplimb very far apart
Have one tank on Shannox and the other on Riplimb. The tanks tank their target 50-60 yards apart from the other (world raid markers are AWESOME for this) so that the stacks fall off by the time both Shannox and Riplimb are able to reapply the debuff. Careful not to bring them much further apart however or they will both get a buff and proceed to murder the tanks. Once both dogs are dead use everything you can to get the OT up to 2nd place in threat just incase the MT dies. If tank and healer CDs are communicated and cycled this should not be an issue.

Worked like a charm, we had 3 healers 1 each tank and one with the dog's target, aslo every healer helping with those close to em.

So thank you^^

Vdaan
07-05-2011, 11:05 AM
We were doing Shannox the other day on 10 man, and I was noticing something odd about Rageface and was talking to one of our hunter about it. We were both noticing that he would break his Face Rage attack when neither one of us was getting a single 30k+ hit (I was DPS as arms). He and I were the main ones taking turns being his target, and while he was still breaking sometimes it was coming after 2 hits totaling over 30k. The first one I noticed was a MS crit of 28k, followed by a white hit of 10k and he stopped his Face Rage. Was this just a bug or were we both just missing our big hits?

TheBigApe
07-05-2011, 12:57 PM
is there a way to set the new range radar to 60 yds?
tanking riplimb and sometimes, not sure if i'm far enough...

also, last night's couple of attempts, the crystal traps did not spawn near me and rather, near shannox tank and hence had to swap positions in order for me to utilize it on riplimb...

thoughts?

Quinafoi
07-06-2011, 08:52 AM
is there a way to set the new range radar to 60 yds?
tanking riplimb and sometimes, not sure if i'm far enough...

also, last night's couple of attempts, the crystal traps did not spawn near me and rather, near shannox tank and hence had to swap positions in order for me to utilize it on riplimb...

thoughts?

1. Have ranged and healers at max range from Shannox so that any traps sent on them are closer to the OT than the MT. Since this will likely be slightly more than half of your raid, the majority of Crystal Prison Traps should spawn closer to you. Assuming half the raid is healers and ranged DPS and then add yourself the off tank there is the majority of traps should be closer to you (the main tank is also the only ineligible target for the Crystal Prison Trap however not an invalid target for Immolation Traps).

2. Additionally, classes without a threat dump you may want to assign to Riplimb after Rageface dies so that they aren't building up threat on the boss which they can't get rid of later. Since this is often melee classes (DKs and Warriors) this puts even more targets for Crystal Prison Trap closer to where you are.

Prior to the Rageface dying, the only one who has any restriction to being some set distance from the boss is the main tank healer(s) because naturally they have to maintain healing range. Everyone else can be further than them or closer to the OT. Since the range between Riplimp and the boss will be somewhere between 50-60 yards, even when DPS switches to the boss, those ranged DPS with 40 yard range can would still be closer to the off tank's position.

Gneecapper
07-06-2011, 05:06 PM
I have a feeling that the "keep Shannox and Riplimb separated and kite riplimb through the crystal trap while he's retrieving the spear in order to drop stacks" strategy is probably the one that was intended by Blizzard. Blizzard hasn't had a taunt immune tank switching boss since... Hydross? And even Hydross had an aggro wipe, making tank switching easy.

BLOODBOIL!!! Taunt immune boss that would do threat knock backs and disorients, required 2 tanks if you were really good, 3 tanks for most people. To this day probably one of my favorite fights to tankm, I think I'm BC biased though my favorite fight of all time to tank is Illidari Council (ret paladin specifically) one of the most unforgiving fights for a warrior tank.

Snezzlin
07-12-2011, 02:33 PM
Ok, the boss gains 30% dmg and attk speed buff per dog that dies. Both dogs enrage if the boss reaches 30% when they are still alive.

The boss can only apply debuffs on the tank when he has his spear. Riplimb can't apply his debuff while he's retrieving the spear.

For the sake of clarity I suggest we kill Rageface fast, and live with the 30% buff on the boss. Try to stand between Rageface and any immolation traps during this to ensure he hits as many of those as possible. Leave Crystal traps free for Riplimb. With 1 tank on the boss and the other on Riplimb spaced roughly 60 yards apart. The raid will be positioned between the 2. This means all traps will be dropped between 2 tanks making it far easier to line up trapping Riplimb and easily allow for both tanks to drop stacks every time the spear is thrown.

Here's where my own little idea comes into play. Because the boss is untauntable but will continue to apply stacks after he hits 30%, I suggest that any class with an aggro drop dps the boss after Rageface dies, and those without an aggro drop dps Riplimb.

Then when we are ready to push the final phase, everyone who was dpsing Shannox drop all or as much aggro as they can (vanish, feign, shatter, whatever) and allow the tank who was on Riplimb to quickly become 2nd threat on the boss while the dps without those abilities shouldn't have threat on Shannox at all. When/if the Shannox tank dies the next tank is lined up to hold him until we collect loot.

Any thoughts on this?

Threat persists through death and drop threat abilities. This was observed and posted on the EJ thread for rogue raid mechanics in 4.2



Vanish seems currently unable to drop threat on this boss, even being killed and combat ressing does not drop threat, it is not clear if this is intended mechanics or just a bug at this stage.


It seems that this is intended to avoid using the strategy you have suggested.

inoue
07-12-2011, 03:00 PM
hi a little question what program are you all using to film ingame?

Quinafoi
07-12-2011, 03:31 PM
hi a little question what program are you all using to film ingame?

Most, if not all, of the video guide authors use FRAPS (http://www.fraps.com/) for the actual recording. This product does have a price tag however its a one time fee with a lifetime subscription to any updates. Editing tools beyond that may vary a bit more from author to author. If you have more questions about video recording/editing I recommend searching in the Tech Central (http://www.tankspot.com/forumdisplay.php?204-Tech-Central) forums first to see if it's already been asked or addressed and if not posting your questions there.

Hinkakan
07-20-2011, 03:41 AM
If you have an arcane mage, put him on rageface.

While Rageface is face-raging, all attacks on him will crit, and an arcane blast crit is always above 30k.

When we kill him, I (Arcane mage) just stay on rageface the entire time, while other dps is spread on riplimb and shannox. This way rageface will never face-rage for longer than it takes to cast an arcane blast. When I have gotten rageface to 35% the other two are usually at around the same hp.

PS: we do it 10man

jason1975
07-22-2011, 12:11 AM
How to Kill Shannox on 10N (tanking included)

I couldn't believe how many critical details are left out of all the various guides, videos, etc. Most of these are 25M kills which is fairly easy. 10 is significantly harder, until you realize a couple of key details.

1. Mark out 2 locations to tank Riplimb and Shannox. We used marks that were 55 yards apart (use the range finder to set these up by typing /range).

2. Have all DPS focus on rageface (who is the biggest RNG factor in 10 man).

3. Healers should stand about equidistant from the two tanks, but not on a straight line path between them. This is to prevent riplimb from running through immolation traps (which triggers a long immunity to all traps) when you're not actively trying to clear stacks.

4. The riplimb tank will need traps to use on riplimb, so set up your ranged DPS close to where riplimb is to be tanked. This should supply enough crystal traps to clear the debuff.

5. DBM will tell you when crystal traps are spawning on a player near you. Also, look carefully at the traps and you'll see a crimson animation inside them that is different from the immolation traps. Those are the crystal traps.

6. When stacks approach 6-7, it's time to clear. As soon as the ground animation for the spear throw location appears, kite riplimb into a crystal trap. If riplimb is released and it feels like it's going to be too soon, have the shannox tank kite shannox away from riplimb, delaying his return (do not allow them to become more than 60 yards apart, or they will get a massive speed and damage boost).

7. DPS should kill rageface first, then proceed to burn down riplimb to about 10%. DPS should then focus shannox down to about 33%, at which time dps should finish off riplimb, then switch back to shannox.

Don't hesitate to clear the debuff more often if your healers are having trouble. Riplimb in the trap more means lower average stacks and no riplimb damage. Tanks with higher stacks should chain cooldowns together instead of saving them, as there is no big hitting moment in the fight. If you can't figure out why riplimb won't freeze, make sure that he doesn't have the wary debuff (from standing in another trap like an immolation one).

Once you "get" this fight, it's amazing how easy it becomes.

jason1975
07-22-2011, 10:15 AM
is there a way to set the new range radar to 60 yds?
tanking riplimb and sometimes, not sure if i'm far enough...



What we do is the addition method for marking.

1. Mark the first tank's spot, then set your range to 20 yards.
2. Have a player stand on the mark, move until that player is exactly 20 yards away.
3. Have the player move (or someone else) to stand where you are.
4. Move in a straight line away from the original mark until that player is 20 yards away (you're now at 40 yards away from the original mark).

Rinse and repeat until you get to 60 yards (we use 55 just to be safe with the separation anxiety buff they get). You can also do this twice with the range set to 28 yards (max range).

Hinkakan
07-26-2011, 01:39 AM
I dont approve of killing Rageface first, since he is quite easy to deal with, and you dont have that option on heroic, so you might aswell get use to dealing with him right away. On heroic though, Rageface is a bitch! Is there any good way to avoid getting him into immolation traps all the time? (since he is jumping around all the time, it seems that he keeps running into immolation traps). I have had a hard time testing this for myself; anyone who knows, if, when I break his face-rage, and he fixates on me, I kite him to trap... when he gets out of the trap again, will he keep staying on me?

Not_An_Uber_Tank
07-28-2011, 08:52 AM
Question about 10 man, is there any reason not to kill Riplimb right off the bat so both tanks can handle Shannox and Jagged Tear?

Quinafoi
07-28-2011, 09:19 AM
Because as soon as Riplimb is dead, the boss start stacking an ever increasing fire damage taken debuff on the raid each time he sticks his spear in the ground. This serves as the soft enrage mechanic of the encounter and why you want the Riplimb in particular to die as close to 30% on the boss as possible on normal mode.

Magma Rupture (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=99840)

Most raids are adopting the method of freezing Riplimb when the spear is thrown in order to reset the debuff stacks, this is becoming the standard approach to that particular problem.

bulbados
07-29-2011, 08:31 AM
We have been using the approach of having one tank on Shannox and one on Riplimb until Riplimb goes down (with Shannox around 30%). The problem we face is that, in phase 2, the Riplimb tank has built up no threat on Shannox while everyone else has lots. Should the main tank die in phase 2, the Riplimb tank has no way to grab Shannox (immune to taunt) and watches helplessly while Shannox murders the DPS and leaves him for last.

Any ideas on how the Riplimb tank might be able to build a little threat throughout the course of the fight so that he could provide a "safety net" in phase 2, should the main tank be killed?

Quinafoi
07-29-2011, 09:28 AM
The boss should die before the main tank dies on normal difficulty. You shouldn't actually require a off tank on Shannox if executed correctly. If your tank is dying they either had too many stacks of the debuff going into the final burn, you killed Riplimp too early, not using cooldowns properly as damage from Magma Rupture ramps up, or they are taking unnecessary damage such as not backing out of the insta gib of Magma Rupture's point blank range effect. You may want to check a death log to see what is actually killing your tank. If you see things like Magma Rupture hitting for like 100k twice in under a second, they stood in the point blank range attack when the boss rams his spear into the ground right on the tanks head. There is a cast timer for this and they need to actually move out of it or they will die for sure.

If executed correctly, no one should die on the Shannox encounter. You shouldn't actually need a tank to be second in threat going into the final burn on normal difficulty.

Bladesong
07-29-2011, 12:41 PM
A few tips for running this on ten man with two tanks:

1) The Shannox tank can kite him when Riplimb is returning the spear to get extra time to drop the stacks.
2) I usually tank Riplimb, but did the fight once on my Holy Priest and found that the Body and Soul talent (movement speed increase for the target of your PW:S) was amazing for tanks running around trying to drop stacks.
3) When Riplimb is about to die, we move Shannox so that we can go into the last phase in an area that isn't covered in traps.
4) If you get the latest DBM, it now gives an audio warning when a trap appears under you - one less thing for your eyes to track

The Leviathan
07-29-2011, 12:45 PM
Threat persists through death and drop threat abilities. This was observed and posted on the EJ thread for rogue raid mechanics in 4.2
It seems that this is intended to avoid using the strategy you have suggested.
It doesn't really matter. It's incredibly easy to do this fight with 1 tank on the boss and 1 on Riplimb the entire time. Just reset stacks by trapping Riplimb from time to time and certainly before killing the second dog.

The Leviathan
07-29-2011, 12:52 PM
Is there any good way to avoid getting him into immolation traps all the time? (since he is jumping around all the time, it seems that he keeps running into immolation traps). I have had a hard time testing this for myself; anyone who knows, if, when I break his face-rage, and he fixates on me, I kite him to trap... when he gets out of the trap again, will he keep staying on me?

Since he ignores traps while carrying the spear, all you have to make sure of is you don't have any between you and him on his way back. You have control of his path BACK to the tank. That's when he'll hit traps.

Dras
08-03-2011, 05:31 AM
why bother with the traps ? - if riblimb is tanked far enough aways from the tank , and kitted to the raid(away from the spear) as soon as the spear is about to land , the time he uses to get back to the spear then turn and move back to shannox the tear stack should drop of both tanks if done right , if need asign on dps to slow riblimb on his way to the tank.
have a look at this vid to see the thing in action - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QvOp1DGxrA

Quinafoi
08-03-2011, 08:14 AM
why bother with the traps ?

The number one foremost reason is that I would believe this is the intended way of executing the encounter. Since they made it that they can be trapped and the traps will very reliably reset debuff stacks. Separation Anxiety was added to the encounter after it's initial release to prevent the tactic which trivialized the mechanic to the point where the tank had to move very little by simply tanking them very far apart. With the 60 yard range while the method of not trapping and simply maximizing the travel distance within that 60 yard range may not be their intended method, at least it still requires significant tank movement for the Riplimb tank (which was Blizzard's core concern). However if they feel the need to push you into the trapping method, all they need to do is shorten the range further.

Because the traps can be used, and likely were intended to be used, any retuning Blizzard would do would likely continue to have this method be viable, however may result in other methods becoming unviable. I don't believe they would change it further however since as I've already mentioned, their core concern was that the Riplimb tank wasn't doing as much work as they intended for them on this encounter and since the alternate method you use still requires significant movement by the Riplimb tank it is likely an acceptable alternative in the eyes of Blizzard.

Both methods are viable today and will likely remain viable since neither completely trivializes the role of the Riplimb tank. My personal recommendation is to use the trapping method. However there are no major issues with the alternative. So long as a tactic doesn't trivialize a core mechanic or role in the encounter it will likely remain viable.

Finthis
08-03-2011, 06:15 PM
Does anyone know what happens if you kill Riplimb while Shannox does not have his spear? Does Shannox just go get the spear himself? Is it even possible? It seems like a good trick to avoid the Magma Rupture...I suspect it doesn't work though? =)

Dras
08-04-2011, 12:37 AM
there is no change in the last phace , we tried it - rib dead , and he gets his spear back , seems like magma rupture is there to stay

Quinafoi
08-04-2011, 08:20 AM
Does anyone know what happens if you kill Riplimb while Shannox does not have his spear? Does Shannox just go get the spear himself? Is it even possible? It seems like a good trick to avoid the Magma Rupture...I suspect it doesn't work though? =)

Once Riplimb dies if Shannox does not have the spear he immediately pulls it back to himself in a Death Grip type fashion.

Dras
08-08-2011, 12:24 AM
....
Because the traps can be used, and likely were intended to be used, any retuning Blizzard would do would likely continue to have this method be viable, however may result in other methods becoming unviable. I don't believe they would change it further however since as I've already mentioned, their core concern was that the Riplimb tank wasn't doing as much work as they intended for them on this encounter and since the alternate method you use still requires significant movement by the Riplimb tank it is likely an acceptable alternative in the eyes of Blizzard.

Both methods are viable today and will likely remain viable since neither completely trivializes the role of the Riplimb tank....

there is one little problem with just useing trap tactic is the wary buff which prevents it from being affected by other traps for a while. Riplimb often gains Wary once he completes a spear fetch (because there are tons of immolation traps lying around). Also, a few seconds after Shannox performs Hurl Spear, Riplimb will gain Dogged Determination (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=101111) that prevents him from being immobilized or slowed below 65% of his normal speed. This small window is when Riplimb can be kited (preferably into a Crystal Trap) to increase Shannox' spear downtime.
not so sure blizz just made the traps just for the dogs also affect the players and in the end there can be a lot of them laying around..

Dras
08-08-2011, 12:26 AM
hi a little question what program are you all using to film ingame?

Fraps to record, vegas moviestudio to edit the recording after...

Quinafoi
08-08-2011, 11:15 AM
there is one little problem with just useing trap tactic is the wary buff which prevents it from being affected by other traps for a while. Riplimb often gains Wary once he completes a spear fetch (because there are tons of immolation traps lying around). Also, a few seconds after Shannox performs Hurl Spear, Riplimb will gain Dogged Determination (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=101111) — that prevents him from being immobilized or slowed below 65% of his normal speed. This small window is when Riplimb can be kited (preferably into a Crystal Trap) to increase Shannox' spear downtime.
not so sure blizz just made the traps just for the dogs also affect the players and in the end there can be a lot of them laying around..

If you can move yourself out of Immolation and Crystal Prison Traps, you can move a dog into them. If you fail to trap him before Dogged Determination is applied, that is a matter of timing and technique, not a flaw in the tactic. The tactic isn't flawed but perhaps the execution of it is.

Also, on heroic difficulty you have to use the traps because of Feeding Frenzy in particular on Rageface. Using them on Riplimb is still technically optional. So your argument that Blizzard didn't intend for the traps to be used against the dogs is clearly incorrect once you include differences in heroic mode difficulty. In normal mode difficulty since Rageface is killed and you have the traps anyway you may as well use them for Riplimb.

Dras
08-09-2011, 07:06 AM
what arguement Quinafoi ? where did i ever post that the traps isent made for the dogs ? read the post above and you see it's about the warry buff wich makes the dogs ignoring the traps for 25sec. if you wanna use trap only tactic sure go ahead really up to you m8 ,im just saying no need to bother with em in NORMAL MODE since the jagged tear on the tanks can easly be removed with kiting riblimb - nothing more nothing less - check out the video from previous post and see it can be done....
On hc mode the fight changes ofc , blizzard made it that way and having crystal trap around is actually usefull in HC MODE....

Breyal
08-09-2011, 10:44 AM
Great Video..is there a 10 man version? I've searched and come up with none.

Outbackjack
08-09-2011, 01:54 PM
I've got a 10 man video from a tank point of view, its not terribly different from the 25 man version. You can find it in the Strategy Discussion forum here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?76368-Strategy-Discussion-Shannox).

canman
08-14-2011, 07:01 PM
We have tried this fight a couple of times on 10 man using a couple of different strategies all with not much luck. I have a couple of questions from the melee dps (Rogue specifically but some apply to all melee) perspective that I would appreciate any insight on:

- We have tried the all dps on Riplimb first strategy and it does seem to have some good value; however, it is very frustrating from a melee dps and especially Rogue perspective. If I am tasked with dps on Riplimb, I spend almost my entire time chasing him around, and then if the tank traps him in a trap which is often a good idea, Riplimb is then immune to damage. So basically it is very hard for me keep up on dps on either dog because of how they move.
- However if we put melee dps on Shannox like the movie suggests, I am able to carry out pretty much my normal rotation and come pretty close to my max dps all the time.

So what are most 10 man melee dps doing?

Last question, seems like I always see references to Rogues disarming the traps, and I honestly can not see why this comes up. Yes, we can disarm the traps - but ONLY when stealthed so you either have to do nothing but disarm traps or you have waste your vanish just to regain stealth to disarm trap which even for a sub Rogue would be twice every cd period. It just does not seem like a viable strategy so I am wondering why it is even ever mentioned. Does anyone actually have their Rogue doing this?

Thanks.

ananoon
08-14-2011, 08:12 PM
So what are most 10 man melee dps doing?


In our group we have a ret paly and a frost DK for melee. Our ret paly is on Shanox the whole time, only switching to riplimb if we get to close to 30% on Shannox before riplimb goes down. Our frost DK is on rageface at the start to help with face rage since he tends to get some big hits, and howling blast makes it easier for him to dps from some distance. He switches to Shannox with the ret paly when rageface goes down. Here are the logs from our kill last week (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rqiicx0oukmg8idi/sum/damageDone/?s=4518&e=4868).




[QUOTE=canman;522080]Last question, seems like I always see references to Rogues disarming the traps, and I honestly can not see why this comes up. Yes, we can disarm the traps - but ONLY when stealthed so you either have to do nothing but disarm traps or you have waste your vanish just to regain stealth to disarm trap which even for a sub Rogue would be twice every cd period. It just does not seem like a viable strategy so I am wondering why it is even ever mentioned. Does anyone actually have their Rogue doing this?[quote]


We had a rogue for a while who would disarm some of the traps when we were first learning the fight. Honestly, it ended up not being that useful. There are way more traps than the CD for disarming allows. Once your tanks get used to positioning, and your raid learns how to avoid traps, there's no need for any disarming.

bulbados
08-15-2011, 06:43 AM
If I am tasked with dps on Riplimb, I spend almost my entire time chasing him around, and then if the tank traps him in a trap which is often a good idea, Riplimb is then immune to damage.

Out 10-man raid tried a number of different things and we finally settled on this and have been able to get Shannox down.

1. All DPS on Rageface until he goes down. It does cause Shannox to enrage early in the fight, but it's healable and takes the possibility of someone getting Face Raged while Shannox throws a spear out of the fight (seriously, if those two things happen together, you can lose a full health raider in less than 3 seconds).

2. Once Rageface goes down, we split our DPS - range goes to Riplimb and melee goes to Shannox. As you mentioned, Riplimb moves a lot so melee DPS on him will lose a lot of DPS time. In addition, when Riplimb gets trapped, he needs to stay trapped long enough for the stacks of Jagged Tear to drop, so DPS needs to stop hitting him to avoid breaking the trap too soon. Melee DPS on Riplimb have to stand there and look at him while ranged DPS can quickly switch to Shannox and deal a little more damage while waiting for the trap.

3. As we approach 35%-40% on Shannox, we may need to adjust our DPS so that Riplimb goes down with Shannox in the 31%-32% range so we may pull melee DPS off to help on Riplimb or vice-versa.

That approach has worked well for us as it seems to give everyone an opportunity to perform at their best.

Quinafoi
08-15-2011, 07:58 AM
Regarding trap disarming, there really is only one reason to do this and that is to make sure a trap you want triggered is triggered. For instance if an immolation trap is inconvenently too close to a crystal prison trap for the crystal prison to be used on one of the dogs you can disarm the immolation trap to make that crystal prison trap viable. Disarming traps isn't used to clean up traps, but to make traps that remain usable (reliably) against the dogs. If two traps are too close together and you mean to freeze the dog, luck would have it that immolation is the one triggered instead. Ideally you shouldn't have to disarm any traps at all, however if you see such a situation where disarming one makes another easier to use you can do so.

Vong
09-05-2011, 06:08 AM
Help. Ok we've had a few good attempts on this now and last night our best effort was 7% before shannox murdered us all. Raid as follows.
MT-Bear
OT-Warrior (me)
Healers-druid (raid) pally (mt) disc priest (me)
Dps-rogue, dk frost, shadow p, mm hunter and dest lock.

Our tactic is as most 10man advice here. Focus kill rageface down then ranged on rip and melee on shannox until rip has to be trapped then all on shannox till trap wears off. Resetting stacks at around 6-7 as both tanks are 372+ geared so plenty of health. Stopped dps on shannox at 33% reset stacks one last time and then kill riplimb. This is fine up and till this point then it get messy. I start on boss to build aggro but struggle to get up past dps at this point. MT seems to drop like a stone and he's moving from spear in ground but seems even with stack reset and the extra fire dam he's dying real quick maybe 30-45 secs in. Then As I'm still gaining aggro shannox goes bananas in the raid and by the time I'm top we've lost 3-4 and are unable to kill him. All the dps are doing really good numbers I'm assured the healers are using CDs as and when but we failed. Really frustrating. I know we haven't got hero or warp with this setup our Mage wasn't available and shammys is guild arnt geared really yet. Is there something glaringly obvious that I can't see wrong???Really want my guild to kill this guy it will be big morale boost as we arnt moving forward as of yet in fl. Cheers in advance. Vong.

Tengenstein
09-05-2011, 06:30 AM
You're not going to realistically gonna manage to get aggro on shannox (well you might, with the new threat changes), you shouldn't be trying, P3 is only meant to last a minute, minute and a half really. If the MT gets insta-gibbed something went tits up, either the MT stood in something (or otherwise did something silly), the healers dropped the ball, or shannox enranged.

Do you have a raid log so we can so what actaully happened? We really can't tell what happened with so litttle data, so everything is just guesswork. What's really good numbers for DPS? what's your external CD rotation for P3? did you use rallying cry? did the MT just fuck up and stand in a fire?

why are you going to 6-7 stacks? its not much effort to drop them a 2-3, and saves a shed tonne of healer mana

Vong
09-05-2011, 06:35 AM
No log from last night but going again weds so will set something up then. Sorry. Dps are ranging from 18-15k for the fight so on a static target I'm "guessing" we deff got the numbers to kill him. But I will sort log out and re post. I understand it's more data just thought I might be Missing something out in finale phase. The tank stacks tear again and with the fire and norm melee swing he's dead quick time lol. Will post data when I have some

Icebreaker
09-06-2011, 01:26 AM
There is a kinda safe spot for MT at last spears - a bit back and to the right. Plus trinket/big cd's every spear. There should be not more than 3 of them in the last phase.

Kerchunk
09-06-2011, 06:22 AM
Quick tip for anyone who didn't realize: the last patch nerfed the duration of the Wary debuff; you are now able to Immolate Riplimb between every spear and Wary will drop in time for you to trap him again.

Needless to say this is a huge boost to Riplimb DPS and should help you balance out DPS and get the fight done quite a bit faster.


I understand it's more data just thought I might be Missing something out in finale phase.

Nothing really to miss in the phase. Pop Herolust, potions, CDs and burn him as fast as you can. Use raid walls like Aura Mastery to even out damage from the spears and just try to get through him as quickly as possible. Helps if Riplimb goes down when Shannox is at ~31% as opposed to 35%+. Can really make a big difference.

If your tank is dying incredibly fast there are really only three possibilities:
a) He stepped on an Immolation trap. Immolate + double dog Shannox damage is almost a guaranteed death and you wouldn't be able to tell it goes so fast. I bet if you checked the log that's what you would find.

b) Healers are not re-focusing quickly enough after Riplimb dies and applies another stack of the enrage to Shannox.

c) Your healers are just not up to the task.

I'm really guessing it's a). Maybe it's a bit of b). For your sake I hope it's not c)!

Best of luck in there.

Garbid
09-06-2011, 05:45 PM
There are choices on how to tank Riplimb, using crystal traps or kiting while tanking him at max distance from shannox. We use the traps on normal but the kiting on heroic. Why ?

On heroic you need the crystal traps for Rage Face, but on normal it's preferred if you have Rage Face hitting Immolation Traps for added dmg (from the trap it self and the increased dmg taken shortly after being hit by it). So what we do is make sure ranged are not standing near Immolation traps on heroic, so Rage Face doesn't accidentally hit one, but close to Crystal Traps so you can trap him (cause of feeding frenzy debuff), on normal you want people to stand near Immolation Traps.

Here is a video of our guilds Shannox Heroic kill where you can see a smooth reset of stacks every single time using the kiting method and tanks never getting over 3 stacks of the bleed. Take not that we use a warrior tank with heroic leap every other Hurl Spear and life gripping priests rotating on the other Hurl Spears, 1 of them being the OT healer and the other being Rage Face target healer or the spriest slowing Rip Limb when he's fetching the spear.

Resto Shaman healing the OT PoV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGNZVQccHRY

Heroic leap/Life Grip -> Intervene -> Charge Shannox!

Use rogues Tricks to find out the 100yard range and set beacons. Thunderclap (and all attack speed slowing debuffs) are by far the best debuffs you can put on the dogs cause of Feeding Frenzy and on my way back I always try to apply it also to Rage Face. Having Riplimb hitting a Crystal trap on the way back to OT can mess up the kiting distance you can get, so try to avoid these.

1 more thing for those saying 1 method is superior to the other, if you use traps to trap Rip Limb, he "leaps" to shannox after getting the spear but on the kiting method he doesn't and can be slowed from the point where he starts going for the spear and til he gets it to Shannox, both ways taking about as long. Having a Warrior tank on Rip Limb makes the kiting superior cause of the great distance you can get with the tools he has.

Hope this helps.

Cheekyazz
09-06-2011, 08:57 PM
The way we do it is, all dps are on rageface, until its dead, we kill rageface 1st, always have.
Once its dead, our melee which is only 1 and a frost dk then stays on boss, we then dps riplimb down to around 35% dot classes move off around 38% then we dps shannox down to around 35% same thing again dot classes move off around 38% then we finish off riplimb them kill boss.

Pacans
09-07-2011, 12:11 AM
Some points to look at:
1) we usually leave Shannox @ 40% as our Warrior Tank brings him down too fast if we leave him at 35% and dog goes into enrage and of-course its a wipe
2) before killing Riplimb time when Jagged Tier debuff will fall off. If we are starting ph2 with 5+ tiers on main tank it will be a wipe. So before last burn kite him into trap with few hundreds k hp left, when trap falling off pop Lust burn him and then burn Shannox.

I don't know why but I have seen many players are taking this phase as full nuke phase and ignore everything. It is not. If You can fail in ph1 then You can not afford that in ph2 (10 man). So basically its much more important to watch under Your feet then make big dps on boss.

Kerchunk
09-08-2011, 08:55 AM
1 more thing for those saying 1 method is superior to the other, if you use traps to trap Rip Limb, he "leaps" to shannox after getting the spear

Is that a Heroic thing? 'cause he definitely doesn't do anything like that on normal.

Tibbs
09-15-2011, 11:19 PM
It seems that wary isn't 23 sec anymore. Last night, it was down to 14 sec.

rslogic
09-16-2011, 05:37 PM
Has anyone been able to, more recently, varify the strategy in another video by OutBackJack wherein you pull the Riplimb into a Crystal trap just before getting Shannox to 30%, and then Riplimb doesn't Berserk and Shannox never goes into UberAoEDPS mode?

I want to get my guild to try it, and we'll try it at LEAST once before moving on (and I'll share the results), but it would be good to know before hand whether or not this has been patched out.

Shambells
09-19-2011, 09:53 AM
How would that work? I tried searching for a video of that strat but couldnt find it. Are we saying kill Rageface and then burn Shannox to 31-ish % and then trap Riplimb, burn lust/hero and kill Shannox? Cuz I don't think the trap lasts more than 10 seconds or so on the dogs. Pretty certain it's not long enough to finish Shannox off. And I also thought that Shannox' burn phase was tied to his own health, not the death of the dogs. I know the damage/speed buff he gets is tied to the dogs though. So I'm not exactly sure what that strat gains you.

Outbackjack
09-19-2011, 10:14 AM
The trick is that trapping Riplimb while Shannox goes past 30% HP does not trigger Frenzied Devotion. It was discovered somewhat early on and assumed to be a bug that would be fixed, I don't know if thats the case or not. Its interesting that the wording of Frenzied Devotion states "Riplimb enters an unstoppable rage if he witnesses Shannox's health reach 30%." and isn't just "when Shannox's health reaches 30%" so maybe it was intended by Bliz?

Either way, it creates an alternate way to kill Shannox. Kill Rageface outright, bring Shannox to ~33%, trap Riplimb, push Shannox past 30%, continue offtanking Riplimb as normal while killing Shannox.


EDIT: video is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI9k97qIhXM)for a brief description of it, near the end.

Shambells
09-19-2011, 12:40 PM
Wouldnt have believed it if I hadn't seen it. Can't believe they let that go (and stay) live like that. Still, it's not like it saves much, since the burn phase is lol easy once you get used to it. The hardest part of that fight IMHO is not stepping on a trap chasing Rageface around. Once he's dead it's pretty simple. Very nice guide btw.

Shadowfor
09-23-2011, 06:47 PM
I have question, If you only have 2 tanks.

how to lose your stacks from shanox then?

Outbackjack
09-23-2011, 07:00 PM
Shannox will apply the Jagged Tear debuff when he has his spear, when he throws the spear to Riplimb he will not be able to apply Jagged Tear. The 2nd tank will be trapping Riplimb in the Crystal Prison Traps just before the spear is thrown to make sure that Riplimb can't return the spear to Shannox before the tank's Jagged Tear stack is reset.

That's the simplest description of the mechanic, take a look at the video I linked above to see a more detailed explanation of how to handle Riplimb and the Jagged Tear debuff.

Shadowfor
09-24-2011, 08:49 AM
Alright, I understand.


Thanks Outbackjack!