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edeesis
06-25-2011, 05:59 PM
Hello!

So this question has been bothering me: what difference does the changes to avoidance in 4.2 make? Does it buff Plate Tanks, nerf them (if only by a little bit). This is more curiosity than true need, but I figured it would be interesting to look at it.

Here are the proposed changes:


Stats



Death knights, paladins, and warriors no longer receive any bonus to their chance to dodge from Agility. Their base chance to dodge is now a fixed 5%.
Death knights, paladins, and warriors now receive 27% of their Strength bonuses as parry rating, up from 25%. This conversion still only applies to Strength above and beyond their base Strength.

What we know:

Pre-Patch


%Chance to dodge conversion from agility: 430.69 agility = 1% chance to dodge
Dodge Rating conversion to Dodge Chance: 176.7189 = 1% chance to dodge.
Parry Rating conversion to Parry Chance: 176.7189 = 1% chance to parry.
Parry Rating conversion from Strength: Strength/4 = additional Parry Rating
Any buff that effects Agility and Strength adds chance to dodge and parry, respectively.
Dodge and Parry caps for diminishing returns are both 65.631440%. This is with 0% base dodge and parry.

Dodge from Gear-Agility (enchants and stats) is subject to diminishing returns, while base agility, is not.

Parry Rating received from Strength is subject to Diminishing returns.
Diminishing returns equation: 1/x' = 1/c + k/x where x is the stat's %chance, k is a coefficient (static for all plate tank classes at .9560), c is the cap for x, and x' is the new %chance.
For consistency, if the DR formula spits out an x' that's greater than x, we'll keep it as the minimum amount. This will probably happen with Dodge rating, and Agility, since we're dealing with rather low numbers.
Base Dodge is 3.758% and Base Parry is 5%.
Base Dodge is further increased by Base agility (any source for this? Paper doll says it is, but is it?). This makes it about 4.035%.


Post-Patch


In 4.2, there is no dodge conversion from agility, and strength adds 27% instead of 25% parry rating.
There is now a Stamina/Dodge rating leg enchant.
Base Dodge is now a fixed 5%. (ty Wartotem)

Source for numbers and DR equation: http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Calculations based on my character:

This is my warrior: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/eonar/Edeese/advanced. Play nice.

He currently has:

Strength: 3464
Agility: 174 (119 base + 55 from leg enchant)
Dodge Rating: 1282
Parry Rating: 1757

According to the equations above, he should be receiving 866 Parry rating from Strength, which is 4.900% chance to parry before diminishing returns. He also should be receiving .128% chance to dodge from gear-agility, before diminishing returns. That is a total of 5.304% avoidance from Primary Stats, once again, before diminishing returns.

Kings and Battle shout increases my strength to 4213.6, rounded up to 4214, and my agility to 759.15, subtracting base agility of 119, makes it 640.15, rounded down to 640.

This means that raid buffed, I receive 1053 parry rating from Strength, which is 5.960% chance to parry before DRs and 1.486% chance to dodge before DRs.

Take DRs into account, and now I have 5.693% chance to parry and 1.486% chance to dodge. Add the 4.035% base dodge chance.

So currently, I receive 11.214% avoidance from my primary stats.

---------------------------------------

My character in 4.2:

Stats will change!

Strength: 3464
Agility: 119
Dodge Rating: 1337 (cool!)
Parry Rating: 1826

Due to the changes in the patch, I will now receive 935 parry rating from Strength, which is approximately 5.291% parry chance before DRs.

Add buffs: 4214 strength means 1137 parry rating, approximately 6.434% parry chance before DRs. Post DRs, it's 6.104% parry chance.

But wait! There's more!

Don't forget that we also get the additional 55 dodge rating from the leg enchant. Translates to approximately .311% chance to dodge, which after DRs, is the same.

Edit: When I originally wrote this, I forgot about the added base dodge chance. Wartotem has corrected me, and in 4.2, my character now has 5% base dodge chance.

Edit: Fixed the total.
So, post patch, I receive a total of 11.415% avoidance next patch.

-----------------------------
What this means:

Damn. I gotta stop making mistakes. Maybe I shouldn't do math. Who knows! This time was just a simple issue. When adding buffs in my 4.2 character, I forgot to use .27 as the coefficient for parry, and used .25. This little mistake is why we've been popping back and forth between a buff and a nerf. However, now I can say with 95% certainty (barring any other mistakes) that we have been buffed slightly.

Cheers,

Edeese

Loganisis
06-25-2011, 11:14 PM
What is the base dodge % chance now, 5%? I probably should know that off the top of my head, but I don't.

Bigbad
06-26-2011, 12:05 AM
Base dodge is something like 3,67%+ baseagi/430=4,01% in 4.2 they will change it to a fixed 5%.
So we loose about 1,48% dodge from agility but gain 1% in base value.
Lets take 4214 strength * 0,25=1053, 4214*0,27=1138 so we gain 85 parry ratings which is about 0,48% before DR
And now for the good part we get 55 dodge rating from the leg enchant that will give us 0,31% dodge before DR

So we gain about 0,3% avoidance and we get 1% dodge extra that isn't effected by DR and have the rest of the dodge ratings to be less effected by DR as well since there isn't the 1,48% from agi that was effected by DR. We just might have to rebalance our dodge/parry ratings for DR but thats easier to eyeball now as well.

Airowird
06-26-2011, 01:48 AM
Base Dodge now is 3,758%
Base Agility does not add Dodge Rating.
Bonus Agility currently adds (hidden) Dodge Rating on a Agi * 0,4103.. scaling.
So with a new 5% base, your new avoidance should be 6,005% + (5% - 3,758%) = 7,247%
Patch 4.2 just gave you 7,247% - 7,183% = 0,066% avoidance extra

Note: Strength -> Parry Rating is already added on your paper doll/Armoury. So of your 1757 Parry Rating now, 866 is from strength.
The gain in Strength from the patch (935 - 866 = 69) would actually give you slightly more Parry, due to DR, but I assumed it to be the ame for simplicity. Agility gain does NOT add to Dodge Rating (although it's added to the DR formula), which is probably another reason it's so complex. If it said you got 41% of your Agility as Dodge Rating, the gear/buff choices would be a bit easier.

PS: The change is a gain for nearly all players, as those in lower gear don't miss out on the agi buff, and those in better gear get compensated in Parry (+base dodge) Overall win-win, and it keeps DR formulas easier.

Bigbad
06-26-2011, 02:19 AM
Base Dodge now is 3,758%
Base Agility does not add Dodge Rating.


When i strip down on my warrior i have 4,04% dodge without gear(just checked in game). Pretty sure Base agi /430 is added to base dodge. Even if it has nothing to do with base agi its a little more then 3,758%. I just got in my head that base dodge was slightly more then 4% and with the change we get about 1% more base dodge

Quinafoi
06-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Pre-Patch




...

Dodge and Parry caps are both 65.631440%.
...
For consistency, if the DR formula spits out an x' that's greater than x, we'll keep it as the minimum amount. This will probably happen with Dodge rating, and Agility, since we're dealing with rather low numbers.



No, that's the cap on the deminished portion of Dodge and Parry which is the delta from the base amount. You actual cap on the stat is higher because it includes the base amount from raw unbuffed stats and percentage based talents or enchants.

x' can't be greater than x at any practical point of application. The low points it is worth more simply due to the curvature of the equation. Since a real tank wouldn't be subject to having values of 1% or less delta in these values the equation holds true in practical application. And the maximum level of error at low values seems to be about 0.02%.

edeesis
06-27-2011, 01:17 AM
Base Dodge now is 3,758%
Base Agility does not add Dodge Rating.
Bonus Agility currently adds (hidden) Dodge Rating on a Agi * 0,4103.. scaling.
So with a new 5% base, your new avoidance should be 6,005% + (5% - 3,758%) = 7,247%
Patch 4.2 just gave you 7,247% - 7,183% = 0,066% avoidance extra

So, yeah, I completely forgot about the added base dodge in 4.2. I will fix that in the OP. However, as Bigbad said, are we sure that base agility doesn't add dodge? I was always of the opinion that it did, it just wasn't subject to DR. You'll notice that I didn't include base agi to dodge calculations anyway in either pre-patch or post-patch, because I'm assuming that it'll stay the same.


Note: Strength -> Parry Rating is already added on your paper doll/Armoury. So of your 1757 Parry Rating now, 866 is from strength.
The gain in Strength from the patch (935 - 866 = 69) would actually give you slightly more Parry, due to DR, but I assumed it to be the ame for simplicity. Agility gain does NOT add to Dodge Rating (although it's added to the DR formula), which is probably another reason it's so complex. If it said you got 41% of your Agility as Dodge Rating, the gear/buff choices would be a bit easier.

I knew this. I realized after posting that I didn't exactly make this clear, but I didn't use my actual parry rating in any of my calculations, I just used the parry rating received from strength.


No, that's the cap on the deminished portion of Dodge and Parry which is the delta from the base amount. You actual cap on the stat is higher because it includes the base amount from raw unbuffed stats and percentage based talents or enchants.

Inaccurate language on my part, this doesn't actually effect my calculations themselves, I'll fix that.


x' can't be greater than x at any practical point of application. The low points it is worth more simply due to the curvature of the equation. Since a real tank wouldn't be subject to having values of 1% or less delta in these values the equation holds true in practical application. And the maximum level of error at low values seems to be about 0.02%.

I think I get what you're saying here, and I completely agree. The problem is, usually (I'm assuming this is how they do it server side), diminishing returns are calculated after adding up all sources of dodge that are subject to DRs (dodge rating, gear/enchant agility, buff agility). However, the way I separated out each piece of the puzzle, the DR formula shot out a higher number. To fix this, mostly for simplicity's sake, I just used the lower of the two numbers.

Bigbad
06-27-2011, 02:31 AM
You seem to have 1053 parry rating both for your current and 4.2 setup while it goes from 25% to 27% strength>parry conversion. I doubt base agi will give dodge in 4.2 since agi in general won't give dodge then so to keep it accurate have 4,04% base dodge in current setup and 5% in the 4.2 setup?

Ghladum
06-27-2011, 10:19 AM
Attention awesome people: can we get a new Avoidance macro to copy-pasta into our handy dandy macros?

Bigbad
06-27-2011, 10:38 AM
/run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Unhittable at 102.4%% - you have %.2f%%", GetDodgeChance() + GetBlockChance() + GetParryChance() + 5))

Should still work, its just some conversions and base values changing but you can still get the endresult

Quinafoi
06-27-2011, 11:21 AM
Any macro you are using today if it was correct before for calculating avoidance will still be correct in 4.2.

Here is my automatic scaling version which translates down to a 100% scale. Target a raid boss target dummy and it will it will do the 2.4% reduction to unhittable and 1.8% reduction to avoidance. Target a level 85 and it will have no reduction. It automatically scales based on your level and your target's level.

If you want to hardcode the target level, you can replace the UnitLevel("target") with the desired level, i.e. 88 for a Cataclysm Raid Boss.

Shield Tank (Non-Night Elf)

/run u,t=UnitLevel("player"),UnitLevel("target") if t==-1 then t=u+3 end ld,d,p,b,m=0.2*(u-t),GetDodgeChance(),GetParryChance(),GetBlockChanc e(),5 DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(format("Lvl: "..t.." Unhit: %.2f%% Avoid: %.2f%%",d+p+b+m+ld*4,d+p+m+ld*3))

Shield Tank (Night Elf)

/run u,t=UnitLevel("player"),UnitLevel("target") if t==-1 then t=u+3 end ld,d,p,b,m=0.2*(u-t),GetDodgeChance(),GetParryChance(),GetBlockChanc e(),7 DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(format("Lvl: "..t.." Unhit: %.2f%% Avoid: %.2f%%",d+p+b+m+ld*4,d+p+m+ld*3))

Death Knight (Any Race)

/run x="player" u,t=UnitLevel(x),UnitLevel("target") if t==-1 then t=u+3 end ld,d,p,m=0.2*(u-t),GetDodgeChance(),GetParryChance(),5 if UnitRace(x)=="Night Elf" then m=m+2 end DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(format("Lvl: "..t.." Avoid: %.2f%%",d+p+m+ld*3))

Druid (Any Race)

/run x="player" u,t=UnitLevel(x),UnitLevel("target") if t==-1 then t=u+3 end ld,d,m=0.2*(u-t),GetDodgeChance(),5 if UnitRace(x)=="Night Elf" then m=m+2 end DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(format("Lvl: "..t.." Avoid: %.2f%%",d+m+ld*2))

edeesis
06-27-2011, 02:27 PM
You seem to have 1053 parry rating both for your current and 4.2 setup while it goes from 25% to 27% strength>parry conversion. I doubt base agi will give dodge in 4.2 since agi in general won't give dodge then so to keep it accurate have 4,04% base dodge in current setup and 5% in the 4.2 setup?

Yeah, I fixed this. When I first read your post, I thought you were referring to the parry rating I display as my paper doll. Although that was a minor mistake that didn't affect my calculations, it did lead me to what you were trying to say. Also, I changed the calculations in each to clarify base dodge pre and post patch.

Bigbad
06-28-2011, 01:46 AM
Looks good now :)

My napkin math shows a slightly larger gain, probably has to do with the way we approach DR.
We gain 0,96% dodge unaffected by DR
We gain 0,31% dodge & 0,48% parry effected by DR and loose 1,48% dodge effected by DR
Assuming we would rebalance to our prefered dodge-parry ratio for Hold the Line we can just treat dodge & parry as the same
We loose 0,69% avoidance effected by DR
Depending on the gearlevel our DR is somewhere between 0,7-0,8% avoidance for the last 1% before DR (using the value for the last percent and not the average). Lets take 0,75%
We loose about 0,52% avoidance after DR (0,75*0,69=0,5175)
Total gain 0,96%-0,52%=0,44%

Edit: Now that i think about it the rebalancing of parry & dodge will effect the total avoidance a little bit since as warrior our parry DR will be higher then dodge DR, since we would reforge some parry into dodge to account for the loss of dodge we would gain some avoidance cause of the lesser DR on dodge but loose some HtL uptime but thats all very minimal so lets not make it too complicated ;)