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View Full Version : Tanking I need to know why it's a dumb idea to go Leatherworking on my warrior.



Maxadon
06-25-2011, 04:39 PM
I want to do it for the 70 resistances to wrists, instead of Blacksmithing (which gives 80 mastery). Troll me?

edeesis
06-25-2011, 04:45 PM
70 resistance won't necessarily give you the boost you need to survive. Most people just stick the Stamina Embossment on there, which is, again, not ideal. Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting are currently the most customizable and ideal professions for a Warrior tank, since you can add 2 Sockets, and have extra mastery on 3 gems. However, it's ultimately up to you, if you want the most bang for your buck, go with JC/BS, if it's not a big deal, and it's for like an alt or something, using the Stamina Embossment or even the Resistance one won't kill you.

Maxadon
06-25-2011, 04:48 PM
I'm just thinking about the current content. With all the burst spell damage on some encounters i.e. Crackles, it's an additional ~8% resistance to that damage. As opposed to the ~0.5% additional block & crit block

Toushiro
06-25-2011, 04:50 PM
70 resistance won't necessarily give you the boost you need to survive. Most people just stick the Stamina Embossment on there, which is, again, not ideal. Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting are currently the most customizable and ideal professions for a Warrior tank, since you can add 2 Sockets, and have extra mastery on 3 gems. However, it's ultimately up to you, if you want the most bang for your buck, go with JC/BS, if it's not a big deal, and it's for like an alt or something, using the Stamina Embossment or even the Resistance one won't kill you.

Imho Alch trinket is more appealing then BS sockets.

Maxadon
06-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Imho Alch trinket is more appealing then BS sockets.
But next patch there will be another mastery trinket, so this loses all of its value.

Fetzie
06-25-2011, 05:23 PM
Alchemy gives a boost to mastery if you use the mastery elixir, and you can combine it with the scroll of stamina (150 stamina, counts as a guardian elixir)

PimpJuice4
06-25-2011, 05:27 PM
I want to do it for the 70 resistances to wrists, instead of Blacksmithing (which gives 80 mastery). Troll me?

warriors dont wear leather


but meh,i went engineering on my warrior cuz of the goggles(i dont care if theres upgrades in 4.2 that would make them obsolete since im not raiding firelands or bothering with doing dailys on a alt) and the synapses springs

Loganisis
06-25-2011, 05:53 PM
warriors dont wear leather


but meh,i went engineering on my warrior cuz of the goggles(i dont care if theres upgrades in 4.2 that would make them obsolete since im not raiding firelands or bothering with doing dailys on a alt) and the synapses springs

So in other words, you have nothing useful to contribute to someone whose trying to pick the best option for his toon.


Imho Alch trinket is more appealing then BS sockets.

Disagree completely for warriors.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=58483 is not all the great. Sure it has some stam. You really don't need the stam. Sure it has some mastery. But not much - at least not for a 359. The potion use - maybe - but you still only get one pot per fight so it's limited use.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=59332 isn't hard to get other than RNG.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62466 is better for any fight you need stamina - because you need stam for magic burst and this is awesome for that.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=56280 and for a warrior, I'd take this over the alch trinket. big mastery burst.

And when you compare the alch trinket to 80 mastery or 120 stam you could have instead with BS and non-alch trinkets, I'll take the non-alch trinkets + BS every day of the week and twice on raid night.

****

Max - if you want resitance - Mirror of Broken Images is the way to go. 70 res is nice, but magic damage tends to be burst rather than sustained, so the extra 5-10% magic damage reduction versus the 30-40% mirror will give you is no contest.

BS works really well because it gives you more options. Mastery or Stam and you can adjust it as needed. And it's a pure bonus, not a trade off like the alch trinkets or leatherworking which replaces other enchant options.

Fetzie
06-25-2011, 06:19 PM
BS also works so well because you can use it for your off-spec. Another plus point is that you only need to level to about 420 skill points to be able to use the bonus, whereas every other profession requires you to skill to 500 for the extra stats.

truculent
06-25-2011, 06:27 PM
OP,

Pay no attention to these trolls.


If you want to go LW for the resist bonus, Go for it. I actually considered it for heroic nef and a few other fights and Im a warrior tank.

heres the upside:


the chances of you dieing are greatly increased during damage spikes. Often, those spikes come in the form of magic damage via any given ability. "IF" you find yourself dead during those periods, the resist "may" give you the little bit extra. key word "may"


heres the down side:


no two ways about it, you will see an overall damage reduction loss. it wont be big, but it will in fact be an overall loss. the majority of your damage taken comes from phyisical damage.

So its a give-take situation. the question is, what exactly do you want the resist for? if you find the prementioned event happening, then give it a try. Tbh, Ive been courious for a while.

edeesis
06-25-2011, 06:40 PM
The problem with resistance, is it doesn't necessarily always reduce your damage taken by magic by the same amount. With such a small amount (70), the decreased damage taken overall will probably be more useful if you put dodge or just plain stamina on your bracers. Resistance reduces magic damage taken by a percentage, called a partial resist, in some range. The range stays about the same from max to min, but as you put more resistance, the range moves up the number line.

Loganisis
06-25-2011, 07:28 PM
The resistance would be in addtion to the resistences gained by either MoTW or totems or the pally aura - so it would be those + 70. So it should be enough to gaurantee some reduction.

Maxadon
06-25-2011, 07:34 PM
The problem with resistance, is it doesn't necessarily always reduce your damage taken by magic by the same amount. With such a small amount (70), the decreased damage taken overall will probably be more useful if you put dodge or just plain stamina on your bracers. Resistance reduces magic damage taken by a percentage, called a partial resist, in some range. The range stays about the same from max to min, but as you put more resistance, the range moves up the number line.

70 resistance combined with the elixir actually bumps me up to the constant 30% bracket, according to some research I've done on the matter.

I'm BS/LW atm. I have some logs of my damage taken to heroic crackles that I'll post in a moment, tomorrow night I'll have the enchant and I'll post that as well to compare the differences.

Edit:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hewcuknci044ggux/log/

Remove Show All Events from the query, Paste the code below and you should be able to see Contention (me) and Lokus (our paladin tank). Obviously the damage difference is from Shield Block, but I'm also using a resistance elixir (90 resistance) whereas he is not. And I do use the Mirror, but I typically try to save it for when a breath is going to happen with a crackle. Which didn't happen in these two instances.


[{"spellNames": ["Electrocute"], "eventTypes": [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 50]}]

Loganisis
06-25-2011, 09:25 PM
Running LW for a guaranteed 5% (maybe 10%, depends on how much resistance you already have) magic resitance increase for one boss fight... It's not the reason you'll be dying. If Crackle is the reason you're doing it...

I prefer JC/BS because of the flexability. But at the end of the day, it's not a huge difference one way or another.

Maxadon
06-25-2011, 10:22 PM
It'll be an 8% gain for me. I'm not doing it just for one encounter. I'm thinking it will actually mitigate more damage than 80 mastery will over the course of a fight.

Loganisis
06-25-2011, 10:51 PM
It'll be an 8% gain for me. I'm not doing it just for one encounter. I'm thinking it will actually mitigate more damage than 80 mastery will over the course of a fight.

1. Did they change the way Res worked so it's no longer intervals of 10? (I say maybe 5?) - the point there being 8% will fluxuate based on RNG if Res still works the way I think it does, where if you have enough for 20% res, the range is actually 10%/20%/30%... One of those will be the amount you actually resist. But you have to hit those #s, or at least you did. So if you're sitting at 19%, it was 0/10/20 whereas 20% was 10/20/30... This is one part I'd be happy to be wrong, I got really confused with this in WotLK when I sorta figured it out after reading a ton.

2. It's not an 8% gain across the board, it will fluxuate based on the amount of magic damage in the fight. Don't think of it static terms like that.

3. So it will stop more damage... so...? TBH burst magic (or double doses like crackles and breaths) healers are going to be using their nukes away. War tank gearing isn't really about reducing total damage taken, it's about making the damage taken as easy to heal as possible.

If it were about reducing total damage, we'd be all over dodge and parry until you could get 20 mastery, but even at lower gear levels mastery is still better. So that 80 mastery may not reduce the same amount of damage, but it will help make your damage intake that much smoother. Then you have SB + Mirror for burst magic.

****

I'm not saying it's bad - there's plenty enough magic damage to go around in Nef + hard modes. It's not a game breaker either way. My preference is JC/BS because they both give me the option of mastery or stamina based on what I want (usually mastery) and leatherworking doesn't give me the same flexability and as much access to the the stats I want.

If you're more comfortable with leatherworking, and that's the way you go, it's not wrong. Myself, I prefer the extra mastery and then using SB + Mirror. 2 paths, same end point.

Airowird
06-26-2011, 02:13 AM
The way resistance works is this:
Based on your resistance value, there is a distribution of chances that you resist X*10% damage (X going 0-10).
As your resistance goes up, the chances at lower reduction goes down to 0 (while you will be able to resist a bigger fraction).

Because we are talking about burst here, average damage reduction is useless, it's all about guaranteed reduction.
You should look up what the lowest guaranteed reduction is without the patch. (I think it's 20% raid-buffed).
Check if the addition of the patch actually removes this bracket (i.e. You go to a guaranteed minimum 30% reduction).

If this is so, check the extra damage reduced on the average big hit you take.
Take an equal amount of Mastery (or Dodge/Parry if you prefer to keep it simple) and see what damage that reduces on 2 hits from that boss.
Finally, check how much HP you could get from a Stamina patch (or from picking up a prof with Stamina bonus like Mining)
The reductions should be >~80% of the HP to be worth it. (Reduction is slightly better than EHP)

If avoidances win out, get JWC, if Stamina wins out, either stick to your patch or go Mining or so for the cash flow should you require it.

PS: On JWC & BS as tanking profs: While both provide options no other profession can give you, JWC is not always the best of both. JWC assumes that you would have 3 pure gems of the stat you prefer to 'upgrade' already. This may not always be true (e.g. In WotLK I had at one point a gear set with only 1 blue socket and all other bonuses were Stamina), especially if socket bonuses are still worth it over pure stat stacking. Only if you have Blacksmithing, can you guarantee this (because then you have 3 prismatic sockets, including belt, so you can just put your JWC gems in those). Also, that shit's expensive!!

Booi
06-26-2011, 03:59 AM
195 base raid resist
90 prismatic (if you're going through the trouble to put resist on your bracers, you're wearing this)
= 285
+70 lwing = 355

gets you from the 25% bracket into the 30% bracket
5/75 = 6.7%

and you'd need both the helm and back enchant to get into the 35% section. (7% reduction)

also: http://www.wowhead.com/item=29530


combat ratings:
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Booi
06-26-2011, 04:02 AM
Because we are talking about burst here, average damage reduction is useless, it's all about guaranteed reduction.
You should look up what the lowest guaranteed reduction is without the patch. (I think it's 20% raid-buffed).
Check if the addition of the patch actually removes this bracket (i.e. You go to a guaranteed minimum 30% reduction).

do you have the source for the guaranteed reduction formula? it used to be on the combat ratings thread i listed above, but i bounced to average reduction simply because i couldn't find it.

Booi
06-26-2011, 04:05 PM
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Scroll about halfway down the post.

is that not average damage reduction?
Obviously i'm missing something obvious.

Fetzie
06-26-2011, 04:28 PM
The bit starting


Complete Magic Resistance Mechanics for Catalysm
I stumbled upon something else when checking avoidance dr caps, and I took a detour of figuring out the resistance formula for all levels up to level 88.

justinlee
06-26-2011, 07:17 PM
i think blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting still the best professions for a Warrior tank, 70resistance seems better in some fights , just like Nefarian, Maloriak andMagmaw.
But in other bosses , it seems worse than blacksmithing.
Add 2 sockets, and have extra mastery on 3 gems make u have many different choices.:)

jere
06-26-2011, 07:18 PM
For reference, each partial resistance tier (0%,10%,20%,30%, etc.) is guaranteed when your average resistance reaches 10 more than that tier. That can be found by working out P(x) = 0.5-2.5*|X-A| for each partial resistance tier and seeing where it equals 0.

So for example, to see what average resistance you need to guarantee 10% partial resists, you look at the previous partial resist tier, and solve P(x) = 0 for it:

P(0%) = 0 = 50% - 2.5*|0%-A|
50%/2.5 = |0%-A|
20% = |0% - A| (HINT: this step is true for all partial resist tiers)
A = 20%

So when you have 20% average resist, you have a 0% chance of having a 0% resist and are guaranteed at least a 10% chance to resist.

To see what the minimum average resist is for a guaranteed 20% resist, look for P(10%) = 0


20% = |10% - A|
A = 30%

So when you have 30% average resist, you have a 0% chance of having a 10% resist and are guaranteed at least a 20% chance to resist.

Putting this into a table:


Guaranteed Min Resist Average Resist Needed Resistance Value (vs LvL 88)
10% 20% 181
20% 30% 311
30% 40% 483
40% 50% 724
50% 60% 1086
60% 70% 1690


You can't get any higher than 60% guaranteed since your average can't exceed 75%


EDIT: Here is a table showing the values of P(x) for each resistance tier for 5% increments of average resist:


Partial Resist Tier Probability P(X)
AVG | 0 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.7 0.8 0.9 1.0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
0.10 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0.15 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0.20 0 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0.25 0 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0 0 0 0 0 0
0.30 0 0 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0
0.35 0 0 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0 0 0 0 0
0.40 0 0 0 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0 0 0 0
0.45 0 0 0 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0 0 0 0
0.50 0 0 0 0 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0 0 0
0.55 0 0 0 0 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0 0 0
0.60 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0 0
0.65 0 0 0 0 0 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0 0
0.70 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0.5 0.25 0 0
0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.125 0.375 0.375 0.125 0

Maxadon
06-26-2011, 10:49 PM
Thank you Jere, really appreciate all that information. I feel like I've done enough research to know that this will actually help my spot mitigation as a tank more so than the stamina or mastery gained from this or any other profession. The fact that Blacksmithing gains value over time (when epic gems are released) whereas Jewelcrafting severly loses value when this happens has led me to choose blacksmithing and leatherworking as my primary professions at the current time.

I said I would post logs of our next heroic nef pulls, but we didn't have our raid group available tonight so we just did it on normal. Here are the logs.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yc53aeucp3iya6ms/log/

edeesis
06-27-2011, 01:36 AM
When Epic gems were released in Wrath, Blizz buffed the Dragon's Eyes to give more of each stat, to compensate. I'm assuming they'll do this again.

swelt
06-27-2011, 03:24 AM
I think there's a severe lack of perspective in this discussion.
- Profession perks are hardly game breaking. You can effect a much bigger shift in total character statistics by changing 1 trinket than you can by changing your professions. As long as you haven't picked a *bad* one (herbalism, skinning, tailoring) then you are getting some useful benefit.
- People are talking about T11 bosses as if they are in any way important. Time has moved on. Start thinking about T12 bosses. I hear there might be some fire, but has anyone looked to see if there are any life threatening (heroic crackle style) magic bursts? With the new shield block, would we even have to worry about gearing for them rather than just managing them with cooldowns anyway?

Only 2 professions have the option to give magic resistance: alchemy and leatherworking. Both professions have the downside that they have limits on their flexibility (lw can just have stam/str/resist, alchemy can flask for stam but not elixir for it so armor/mastery or resist/mastery are the only options that will give you the full profession benefit - the stam scroll won't get mixology bonus). Those limitations aren't much different to most other professions, and it's why the JC+BS combo is often touted as 'best', as it's in many ways the most flexible.

Airowird
06-29-2011, 02:55 AM
Thanks for the numbers jere.
So in other words:
For overall damage reduction, resistance is pretty ok (no DR!), depending on how much damage is magical.
For burst reduction, get >311 or the worst case scenario stays the same.

Imho, 311 ain't worth changing to LW for, but if you already are, the question you should ask yourself should rather be:
Is it worth switching to JWC/BS for the flexibility in stats?
Personally, I'ld say not, but it's your time & gold spent rerolling professions, especially when (as swelt pointed out) you can use that time to farm mats for a more significant gear upgrade instead.