View Full Version : Tanking Confused about hit cap for tanks
06-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Some time ago i capped my hit rating . its 8.33% atm.
I see alot tanks around who use 0.0% hit rating.
do I need my 8% ? and do I need my expertise ?
Or should I remove my hit gems and make it mastery or dodge/parry/etc.
Same for reforge
Can anyone explain me what are the correct caps I need as tank?
Currently only doing HC's. on new patch we go back to raid.
I hope my confusion come to an end after I got answers ;)
Malak - Deathwing EU
06-16-2011, 03:51 PM
I can confirm that you do not need hit or expertise for Paladin tanks.. It doesn't even make sense that a tank would need HIT/EXP and the only way you could possibly think you need it is by listening to people who played before Cata. Other tanks I can't speak to but Paladin tanks pretty much have to drop Righteous Fury when co-tanking with anything except Death Knight.. For example a Warrior in Baradin Hold if I am Paladin Tank which will have to trade tanking the boss with a Warrior Tank I drop Righteous Fury to give him aggro and then simply activate Righteous Fury and throw my little taunt to have the mob glued to me again. So in that case did the Warrior need more HIT/EXP or whatever to hold aggro or just a Paladin who knows his character?
Do other tanks need hit exp? "i dunno for sure"
06-16-2011, 03:52 PM
The hit cap for tank's physical attacks is 8% and spells ia 17%, the exception is Interupts than are off the gcd and don't deal damage (skulllbash, rebuke, pummel and brainfreeze). No tank needs the hit cap if he and his DPS are playing their class well.
the same for expertise, the the caps are still 26 for removing dodge, and 56 for removing parry. a well played tank won't need the cap to hold aggro off well played DPS.
I aslo confirm that vengenace is really powerful on taunt swap fights and that i find the need to go berserker stance when i'm taunted off.
06-16-2011, 03:59 PM
The general consensus is to forget threat stats (hit/exp) and keep your survivability stats (mastery/parry/dodge) as high as you can. The reason for this is, with Vengeance, you'll be doing so much damage on the attacks that land that you shouldn't have to worry about threat if you are using the correct abilities and something close to the correct priority.
Now that taunts and interrupts don't miss, there is no need to have hit or expertise as a tank except:
1) DPS are pulling threat from you after you have gained a threat lead,
2) if your mastery depends on hitting (DK and druids) but even that is not really a reason to try for those stats. The DK doesn't use his runes for that ability if it misses so it can be used again immediately after and the druid hits often enough to gain the shield.
3) If you are raiding and you need to pull out that extra ~200 dps to beat a fight.
Now, if you are above the 102.4% combat table coverage, I don't see a problem with changing some of your reforges to threat stats, but there should never be a need to gem for them. (With warriors, anything over 100% block gets converted to critical block chance so it's not ever wasted.)
06-16-2011, 04:05 PM
For example a Warrior in Baradin Hold if I am Paladin Tank which will have to trade tanking the boss with a Warrior Tank I drop Righteous Fury to give him aggro and then simply activate Righteous Fury and throw my little taunt to have the mob glued to me again. So in that case did the Warrior need more HIT/EXP or whatever to hold aggro or just a Paladin who knows his character?
Do other tanks need hit exp? "i dunno for sure"
The warrior tank needed to throw Vigilance on the pally tank. I have never had a problem holding a boss on a tank swap since they added the Vengeance portion to Vigilance.
I have, however, asked the pally tank to take off Righteous Fury when I take Captain America (the final boss in Ascendant Council) and kite him around the stairs so that the pally tank can do as much dps as he can while I'm out of melee range half the time to do my normal rotation.
06-16-2011, 04:42 PM
So in that case did the Warrior need more HIT/EXP or whatever to hold aggro or just a Paladin who knows his character?
Tank A gets smashed for x seconds, his attackpowers raises via vengeance by a fair amount. Tank B taunts, misses on his first style and now he have to work hard to maintain aggro (use second taunt, etc.). You should also consider that the not-tanking-tank can hit the boss from the back, reducing parry chance to zero (instead of up to 14%). Using Vigilance on the other tank and pooling some rage helps but if the no-longer-tanking-tank really want to he can almost always grab the aggro back (like saving a 3 point finisher + another pointer via divine plea back to back with wings haha).
If you just hold back for some (5ish?!) seconds and then just return to your normal play an equal geared (and skilled) tank should be able to keep the aggro against you. If that doesn't work: Toggling RF or switching stances/to catform isn't that hard, losing all your runic power while swapping presence hurts a lot more.
06-16-2011, 06:56 PM
i found as a warrior pooling 45 rage, Colossus Smashing before going def stance and dropping a heavy repercussions shield slam can help if the boss is hard hitter, or can be charged in melee range
06-17-2011, 06:44 AM
Other tanks I can't speak to but Paladin tanks pretty much have to drop Righteous Fury when co-tanking with anything except Death Knight..
Depends on the tank, in BH last night, I had to stop any special attacks to keep pulling off the pally tank and I was on my less geared warrior.
My DK hit is at 0.00 and i have no issues; I think the warrior is at around 1% and the pally is around 1% and neither have issues. That said all three are aound 22 expertise or so just from gear most of it reforged to mastery. So, "hit? you don't need no stink'in hit."
06-17-2011, 08:30 AM
If two tanks, of any differing types, are equally geared and equally played, if the tank that gets taunted off of in Baradin's Hold does not at least slow down, they will pull back. Period.
It's called Vengence people and NO amount of hit/exp will allow an equal tank of any other (or the same) type maintain his threat lead if the other tank isn't smart about his attacks, at least for the first few taunt swaps.
Warriors are actually in *slightly* better shape than any other tank - there's no reason a warrior tank would ever go below 40% vengence - so they have less 'catch up'.
If you pull off the other tank after a taunt swap. YOU SCREWED UP. Period. It's your fault. And shame on you.
What I've found that works really well is after the the other tank taunts, I then turn off my auto attack and I use 1 GCD on Thunderclap and the second GCD on Demo Shout, so I'm applying some utility while the other tank builds vengence. Then I still go through with a less robust rotation.
This whole discussion about does class A or class B or C or D have threat issues is stupid. There are no issues other than the one that Blizzard built into the game - Vengence takes time. It's not snap aggro and NO amount of hit/exp will change that (just reduce the time period *slightly* when it's an issue).
If a tank can't hold threat midway through a fight, the tank is doing some wrong - it's not the class, it's the player.
Like many tanks here, I've been running with less than 2% hit and 10exp most of the expansion. I have, occsionally, had issues on the pull with misses and over-eager DPS. I've not had issues after 15 seconds. That's just the way threat works this x-pac.
06-17-2011, 09:00 AM
^ DK never gets pulled off of - ever; unless other tank taunts.
06-17-2011, 02:01 PM
Some understanding of threat abiltiies for each class helps
-Using Seal of Light will help healers but lower threat output. If you see seal of light on a pally, it's telling you something, if they are using Seal of Truth, then things are normal threat wise.
-A good paladin will time 3 HolyPower instances with a Sacred Duty proc (makes your Shield of the Righteous, AKA shield slam, aka biggest threat move, have 25% extra chance of criting), unless they WoG for survival or inquisition 5+ for AoE. I find it's a high proc rate, so every 1.5 time I get 3 HoPo, I get a Sacred Duty proc. You get a few of those lined up in a row, and the paladin either has a massive threat lead or can potentially rip off threat. And as Logansis said, if the paladin is trying to crit his Shield of the Righteous when the other tank has aggro, it's the paladin tank's fault, he should be using Word of Glory or something else.
Warriors get the most threat from the Shield Slams. If they get a good RNG streak of Sword and Board Procs, they can also pull away on threat (or conversely, struggle if they get no procs)
DKs are just simply disgusting on their threat with no effort whatsoever, their challenge is in managing their survival CDs. While Deathstrikes are a tonne of threat, Heart strikes are slightly better TPS I believe. If the other tank taunts off, and the DK has 2 blood + 4 Death runes, then do DS-DS-HS-HS, instead of HSx6. It helps healing as well if you quickly use your DS before the timer runs out (DS is based on damage from last 5 seconds; with taunt, you stop taking damage).
For Bears, I'm a bit rusty, but they are also like DKs in that TPS is pretty easy if they are reasonably geared. Just let your pulverize drop off, or better yet, go kitty.
06-17-2011, 02:54 PM
So basicly.. I should drop me reforges to hit and swap some gems with hit to avoidance or mastery, ye ?
06-17-2011, 04:15 PM
Mastery mostly, yes. There are at least dozen threads in this forum at least on how to reforge your gear, and right now you are doing it wrong.
You might also want to enchant your gear, get a minor glyph of demo shout and fix your spec (3/3 shield mastery is basically mandatory)
06-18-2011, 12:58 PM
I changed some stuff. Is this better ?
But as I have hardly any hit.. It is hard for pro DPS to not overaggro and go all out.
My Guildmaster keeps saying I should still get enough hit to go for threath...
06-18-2011, 01:14 PM
Pro DPS watch their omen and use their aggro reset abilities if they screw up or just solo mobs without drawing their healers attention off from you.
Just have a look at your link, the "Character Audit" part already tells you the basics. 5 items not enchanted, missing glyph slot. Besides that reforge everything towards mastery and avoidance, there's still room for improvement on helmet, weapon & ranged. And try to get a better trinket (http://www.wowhead.com/item=55881) for 100-200g on the auction house.
Gems: yellow = mastery, red = parry/mastery and blue = mastery/stamina, you're on the right route there but there are still some relics left.
06-18-2011, 11:20 PM
I second what Klausi says, Decent DPS don't pull aggro unless they intend to. IF you're gonna stack a stat for Threat Expertise is worth twice as much to you as Hit is, however if your DPSers are decent, and you are playing your class well you will not have threat problems unless your DPS rather badly outgear you. I suspect if you're having threat issues either you DPS are meterwhoring, rather than playing well and/or you're not playing optimally. Your spec could quite easily Ditch the points in Bloodcraze & gag order to pick up Deep wounds and finish off shield mastery. Prot warriors need hit like a Frost DKs need spirit.
Could you give us a GCD by GCD description of your Pull and your Rotation/priority?
06-19-2011, 11:33 AM
It sounds like a rotation problem. Above that there are glaring spec, and enchanting problems.
You've only killed 2 raid bosses in this tier, so I'm wondering if you have threat problems in 5mans? Where 90% of your threat problems are caused by dps attacking the wrong target, but if you would post your rotation. I established the system of "If you die to getting aggro I don't rez you". This teaches dps to watch and/or install omen.