PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Balancing parry and dodge for my DK tank



kpslow
06-14-2011, 06:38 AM
I am a DK tank just getting back into raiding again. I have read that its important to try to balance out my parry and dodge due to diminishing returns on avoidance (which I am not to clear on) but how important is it really?

With my 4% parry weapon enchant it tend to push my parry well above my dodge. I have recently changed my gemming and enchanting around to favor mastery and I am having some luck with the larger blood shields but having to give up dodge in my gems for mastery is really messing up my balanced between parry and dodge.

Should I gem for the dodge over mastery to try to bring them back in line? Should i reforge my parry into more dodge? or parry into more mastery? Switch my weapon enchant back to stam and armor? Choose gear that is maybe a few levels lower but favors dodge over parry? Am i making to big of an issue out of it?

Here is my armory link
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Bloodhoof/Alanora/simple

as you can see I am at 18% parry and 11% dodge
Big deal?

Thanks for the help

Giliandrix
06-14-2011, 06:40 AM
Due to DR,s you'd get more avoidance (Slightly) overall if you balanced them. It's not a huge thing, if you're not pushing like crazy heroics but it's still something to keep in mind.

Toushiro
06-14-2011, 06:51 AM
you're only 464 rating from dodge having same rating as your parry.

Michultradk
06-14-2011, 07:05 AM
While it's not a game breaker, it is important when min maxing our gear. FOr some reason you havent reforged any of your gear.

Reforge some parry to dodge until your parry is about 4% above your dodge. That should help you out a lot. You should also get away from the pure stamina gems and go with hybrid gems, Greens, oranges and purples when needed.

It's a small thing, but enchanting is prolly the worst profession for tanking, but again thats small and not a deal breaker.

Prexie
06-14-2011, 11:51 AM
Mastery first then you can worry about parry to dodge. The diminishing returns are points related, not percentages. Swordshattering is a% and thus not subject to dr.

Quinafoi
06-14-2011, 01:40 PM
Mastery first then you can worry about parry to dodge. The diminishing returns are points related, not percentages. Swordshattering is a% and thus not subject to dr.

Sorry, but no.

Deminishing returns on Parry and Dodge are applied to the change in Parry or Dodge percentage from the base amount.

For example, deminishing returns is applied to both Dodge gained from Agility and Dodge gained from Dodge Rating, because the effect of the stats is determined prior to its value being deminished. I'd recommend you refresh yourself on the deminishing returns mechanics.

Swordshattering as it is not part of your base Parry percentage should be subject to deminishing returns. You would not have this additional Parry if you were naked because it is an enchant. It is not part of your base Parry, therefore the effect is subject to deminishing returns. If it is not then it is a special exception made for this enchant only.

Regardless though your original statement is wrong. Deminishing returns is applied to the percentage, not the values used to calculate the percentage.


The most recent discussion about deminishing returns on TankSpot that I'm aware of.
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?75432-Understanding-diminishing-returns-A-closer-look-(-HOW-DOES-IT-WORK)

Also the basics of the formula can be found in topics such as the Dodge topic on wowpedia.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Dodge#Diminishing_returns

Satrina's old post from the Evil Empire Guides section.
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40003-Diminishing-Returns-Avoidance

Tengenstein
06-15-2011, 04:37 AM
Should be easy to check: not down your parry chance with sword shattering, then go reforge something else, check your parry% again, if its not the exactly 4% less then DR do affect it.

my 327ish dk has 10.32% parry with Fallen Crusade, and 14.32% with swordshattering.

jere
06-15-2011, 06:28 AM
Swordshattering as it is not part of your base Parry percentage should be subject to deminishing returns. You would not have this additional Parry if you were naked because it is an enchant. It is not part of your base Parry, therefore the effect is subject to deminishing returns. If it is not then it is a special exception made for this enchant only.


While you are indeed correct about DR being applied to percentages rather than ratings (hence why dodge % agility is subject to DR), be careful with special buffs/talents. If an ability or enchant provides straight dodge or parry percentages, in most cases, those will be applied without DR (I can't think of any counter examples, but am not 100% if there are no counters to that).

Ion
06-16-2011, 09:37 AM
While you are indeed correct about DR being applied to percentages rather than ratings (hence why dodge % agility is subject to DR), be careful with special buffs/talents. If an ability or enchant provides straight dodge or parry percentages, in most cases, those will be applied without DR (I can't think of any counter examples, but am not 100% if there are no counters to that).

I do recall people having done the testing to determine that the parry you get from Swordshattering was NOT subject to normal DR. However, that was back in Wrath. I have no idea if that still holds true.

Quinafoi
06-16-2011, 09:40 AM
It's an exception, not the rule. The rule is deminishing returns is applied to the change in avoidance percentage from it's base amount.

jere
06-16-2011, 01:18 PM
It's definitely possible that it has changed. I know in WotLK, it was the rule rather than the exception, but that was back when we had more sources of direct % increases.

To quote the guy who originally managed all the theorycraft on it:



4. Direct percentage gains from talents and spells are not affected by DR. (e.g. 5% Dodge from talents, 4% Parry to weapon, 25 Defense to weapon)



Again, that is WotLK era, so it could have changed since then.

Quinafoi
06-16-2011, 01:51 PM
If that is the norm and applied to all enchants or buffs of that nature then it is incorrectly stated in the evil empire guide.

Your base (naked) avoidance and avoidance given by talents and racials is NOT subject to diminishing returns, and are not included in the formulas.
A weapon enchant is not base avoidance or avoidance from talents or racials.

jere
06-16-2011, 06:10 PM
It could just be an oversight. There should be a rule about % bonuses (not affected by DR) versus rating bonuses (affected by DR). There were more of the former in WotLK, so it was more apparent. That of course excludes anything base, as base avoidance from any source is not affected by DR.

I believe the distinctions are:

Base - Not affected by DR
direct % increases - Not affected by DR
agility / rating increases - affected by DR

Mind you I don't know if any exceptions for that exist.

Insahnity
06-17-2011, 02:18 PM
To add to Jere

You get dodge from agi (until 4.2, then only bears get it)
You get Parry from Str at 25% rate (27% potentially in 4.2)

I believe AGI gains or STR gains are affected by DR because it's AGI->Dodge Rating, not AGI->Dodge %. Same for STR and parry.

Quinafoi
06-18-2011, 06:42 AM
You don't gain Parry from Strength. You gain "Parry Rating" from strength. Key difference. Deminishing returns applies to the change in Parry resulting from all sources from its base amount (which apparently includes percentage based enchants as well). So the deminishing returns is only applied to the Parry Rating portion of the equation since all Strength is converted into Parry Rating.

Agility is different in that it doesn't convert to Dodge Rating but instead converts directly into Dodge. Both Dodge from Agility and Dodge from Dodge Rating are subject to deminishing returns.

jere
06-18-2011, 12:32 PM
To be clear (Made up enchants for example purpose):

Enchant Weapon: Exceptional Dodge Rating => Grants 176 Dodge Rating to weapon (affected by DR)

Enchant Weapon: Exceptional Dodge Percent => Grants 1% Dodge to weapon (not affected by DR)

If there was an enchant that provided 1% dodge directly, similar to how sword shattering provides 4% parry, then it would not be affected by DR. However, an enchant that provides rating or agility, which must be converted to % dodge (or parry) is affected by DR.

The DR formula is applied to percentages rather than ratings directly, however, ONLY those percentages that are the result of any rating or agility past base. Base avoidance and directly applied avoidance are not subject to DR. It gets confusing sometimes to filter out.

Loganisis
06-19-2011, 11:21 AM
The only real valuable tanking question that SHOULD have gone into the Q&A ---

Do you plan to show actual Dodge/Parry on the Character sheet after Diminishing returns? You removed ArPen and DefRating because it was too mathy and complex (it was neither) but you've left diminishing returns as covuluted and confusing and difficult to understand as ever.

leethaxor
06-19-2011, 11:49 AM
The only real valuable tanking question that SHOULD have gone into the Q&A ---

Do you plan to show actual Dodge/Parry on the Character sheet after Diminishing returns? You removed ArPen and DefRating because it was too mathy and complex (it was neither) but you've left diminishing returns as covuluted and confusing and difficult to understand as ever.

Removal of DR would be down right difficult, nay impossible. We see tankadins already stepping closer to the unhittable mark, every tanking class would be most likely. If DR's were removed most tanking gear would have to be redone, so it could provide a fraction of the avoidance it does, and we would still have unhittable issues in latter tiers. Unless it was nerf'd to oblivion destroying the avoidance model of tanking that allows for the current healing model to work. DR's are here to stay me thinks.. Now haste on the other hand, that is mathy.

Loganisis
06-19-2011, 12:30 PM
Not talking about removing DR. I'm talking about giving us a way to understand effective (or actual) dodge/parry% without algebra that doesn't belong in equations about the strength of a black hole and may or may not be right because blizzard may or may not treat certain encahnts/runes/talents/etc the same.

I'll go back to the original part of the question, not the statement as to why it's needed: Do you plan to show actual Dodge/Parry on the Character sheet after Diminishing returns?

Maybe I'm wrong here, but my understanding is the character sheet shows dodge/parry before DR and thus isn't really useful other than with the broaded of brush strokes and is really not accurate.

***

Haste isn't all that complex. It's multiplictive. And it's consistnet. There are no exponetial changes in the realtionships.

Weapon Speed / (all haste effects multiplied together) or something like that. Maybe it's not divided, I can't remember. And haste has clear break points. DR doesn't.

leethaxor
06-19-2011, 11:55 PM
I do agree DR's should be visible on the character sheet, its just stupid not putting them there. I guess I kinda misunderstood your post.


* * * *

Your right about haste, DR's are as simple as (The formula posted on EJ is confusing it simplifies to):
real amount = constant * character sheet / different constant

Quinafoi
06-20-2011, 07:51 AM
I do agree DR's should be visible on the character sheet, its just stupid not putting them there. I guess I kinda misunderstood your post.


* * * *

Your right about haste, DR's are as simple as (The formula posted on EJ is confusing it simplifies to):
real amount = constant * character sheet / different constant

The amount shown on the character sheet takes DR into consideration already. And your simplification seems a bit off.

Deminishing Returns...
1/x' = 1/c + k/x
x' = deminished value
c = class cap for that avoidance
k = class constant
x = undeminished value
Solve for x' (the portion of avoidance subject to deminishing returns).
x' = cx / (x + ck)

Real Amount = Base Amount + x' = What your character sheet displays
or
Real Amount = Base Amount + ( cx / (x + ck) )

Base Amount = Naked unbuffed avoidance + Avoidance from talents or enchants that are percentage based.


Look more closely at your equation. If the only variable in it is in the numerator, that is linear growth. That means there isn't any actual reduction in the value as it gets higher.

Const1 * Variable / Const2
Has linear growth based on Variable, it doens't decrease in value ever (its a line, not a curve).

Plug the numbers into the correct form however, ( cx / (x + ck) ) and you will notice that it actually trends towards the constant c which is the "avoidance cap for your class". That's exactly what it should do, as your undeminished value increases towards infinity the actual result should approach the cap.

jere
06-20-2011, 02:00 PM
Yep, the character sheet values show avoidance with DR taken into account. If you want avoidance without DR, check the tooltips, but the avoidance shown on the char sheet takes DR into account already.

Crittable
06-21-2011, 07:11 PM
If there was an enchant that provided 1% dodge directly, similar to how sword shattering provides 4% parry, then it would not be affected by DR. However, an enchant that provides rating or agility, which must be converted to % dodge (or parry) is affected by DR.

The DR formula is applied to percentages rather than ratings directly, however, ONLY those percentages that are the result of any rating or agility past base. Base avoidance and directly applied avoidance are not subject to DR. It gets confusing sometimes to filter out.

Isn't there a glove enchant that I used in very early Wrath with extra threat and 2% parry? or has that changed to parry rating now? That could be an enchant that a non-dk tank can use to check.

Tengenstein
06-21-2011, 08:48 PM
Wasn't that +2% threat and some parry rating?

Crittable
06-21-2011, 09:27 PM
I don't remember.

jere
06-22-2011, 09:23 AM
threat and parry rating:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=44625

Crittable
06-22-2011, 02:42 PM
threat and parry rating:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=44625

Well that screws up my idea. Carry on.