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View Full Version : Warrior Talented Last Stand still needed



arctus
06-10-2011, 05:46 AM
When 4.1 hit we got a group last stand. I placed it on my bars and everything was fine.
But a few weeks later, when i looked at my talent spec:

Do we really need Last stand? Its on the same CD. Gives 30% HP and costs 1 Talent point.

To tell the truth, i just dont want another button on my mouse for oh shit situations (got enough with shieldwall, Pot, Trinket, Regeneration, Warlock Stone, Last Stand).

So whats your oppinion just using the Group last stand, also as Tank CD and freeing a talent point?

Tengenstein
06-10-2011, 06:00 AM
Last stand is a good oh shit button, none of out other CDs are. We do have alot of buttons, but i really do think a prot warrior needs last stand, but not necassarily rallying cry and that it only really becomes an issue when the prot warrior is the only warrior in the raid. However strategic use of CDs is often better than using them as panic puttons on Chimaearon if i'm taking the DA i can LS the second DA, RC first possible feud anf generally have LS back by the last phase. Same with Nef burn LS early, have a RC in phase 2 and then a LS in P3.

what else are you going to spend one talent point on?

swelt
06-10-2011, 06:09 AM
Note the difference in durations as well - Rallying Cry is only 10 seconds, Last Stand in 20. If you are using last stand + shield block to survive a particular burst, rallying cry might not have the duration you need. I wouldn't be without it. It's my go-to button for unexpected health dips in fights when I am not tied to a specific rotation and it's saved me more often than any other cooldown.

Loganisis
06-10-2011, 10:05 AM
I have both.

Last stand is what I use if I'm worried about my survival as a tank.

Rallying Cry is for when I'm DPS-ing.

If I'm at all concerned about my survivability, I use LS as a tank. I'll only use RC as a tank if basically I outgear the encounter, but at that point, the healers usually don't need it used ;-)

Bigbad
06-10-2011, 10:10 AM
You know you want to reach 300k hp with both last stand up and a rallying cry from someone else. Don't feel like its worth spending that talent point somewhere else and lack the option to LS.

Insahnity
06-10-2011, 10:31 AM
Put the abilities together from a healer's perspective

10 seconds of extra HP going to everyone. The tank *may* get an extra full hit or two out of it, before it is lost, as it's only 6-7 GCDs that the healer has to work with, not only for you but possibly the raid. I'm assuming in 10 seconds you will either avoid or block a at least one hit.

In 20 seconds, that's a lot of time for the healer to unload several good nuke heals which will allow you to soak a few hits. And in the worst case scenario, if the healer died, and got battle rezzed, they have the option to innervate/mana tide/Divine Plea/Divine hymn, and possibly quaff a potion of concentration to boot if the tank pops a mitigation CD along with LS.

Quinafoi
06-10-2011, 10:34 AM
How many talents in your talent tree increase your effective health against physical and magic by an average of 2.78% for one talent point (taking into account you would still have Rallying Cry without it)? The actual practical benefit is much higher since the effective health is applied at the point when it is most needed and not simply used on cooldown.

The answer... none. There is no other talent in the Protection Warrior talent tree that provides a comparable benefit to effective health against both magic and physical damage with only one point spent in it.

Quinafoi
06-10-2011, 10:55 AM
Why is Last Stand still important?

Because...

Even though effective health is not the golden rule and single guiding principle anymore to tanking... effective health is still important.
For one talent point spent, this talent increases your effective health more than you could get out of spending that one talent point in any other talent. And because this talent effects the health portion of effective health, it applies to all types of damage and isn't limited to just magic or physical.

Gnoo
06-11-2011, 10:34 AM
I think the health and duration bonus over RC more than justify spending one talent point for it.

Arte
06-15-2011, 02:48 AM
Well tbh, i found rallying cry more something u shall use incase the healers get trouble with healing the raid.
Such as in Chimarean hc,Magmaw last phase. But in al these things, i Fury,arms warrior should use it.
Ques mostly the warr tank will have it on cld.

Conclussion is that the warrior tanks should always spec for last stand. Alse ques last stand is 20secs and Rallying cry just 10s.

Grindleguts
06-15-2011, 04:30 AM
In raid with RC available elsewhere, definitely needed. For 5-mans, no, get another beneficial talent IMO.

swelt
06-15-2011, 06:30 AM
On a related note, I'm seeing some disappointing results from Rallying Cry. Last stand works to survive a burst because you are almost certainly going to be channelling plenty of heals through the tank already. Since it's a 20s duration, it's really likely that you'll have your hp topped up again. With rallying cry, a few times I've used it during 'raid wide damage' periods, and seen in death logs: Rallying cry expires->player drops to 1hp ->player gets hit by some trivial splash damage and dies. From the healers end of it, they've seen someone sitting on 'low but not fatal' health percentage, then suddenly they are at 1hp and then dead. Now maybe this is just a learning issue for healers in how we work with it, or maybe I'm misreading it, but it seems to me that it rather limits the usability of rallying cry as a 'raid wall' type cooldown.

feralminded
06-15-2011, 08:45 AM
I've used Rallying cry to great effect on HC Magmaw (during a P2 spew), Maloriak (right before a red phase breath and right after a P2 green AoE tick), and Halfus (to survive a furious roar when our mage died). I love it honestly. And yes I still have last stand and use that when I need it ... but its nice having the raid wall to use strategically.

Booi
06-19-2011, 04:33 AM
With rallying cry, a few times I've used it during 'raid wide damage' periods, and seen in death logs: Rallying cry expires->player drops to 1hp ->player gets hit by some trivial splash damage and dies. From the healers end of it, they've seen someone sitting on 'low but not fatal' health percentage, then suddenly they are at 1hp and then dead.

If they fall to 1 health when RC drops it means that RC already saved their life somewhere in those 10 seconds. Besides I think most people would define sub 17% of their health as "low and fatal".

Tengenstein
06-19-2011, 05:30 AM
I thought it worked multiplacatively so if you had 60K/120K health the moment before RC fell off, you end up having 50k/100k when it fell off?

Booi
06-19-2011, 09:33 AM
I thought it worked multiplacatively so if you had 60K/120K health the moment before RC fell off, you end up having 50k/100k when it fell off?

unfortunately not the case.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15JS76Nt0to

swelt
06-20-2011, 01:46 AM
What got me looking closely at it was chimeron heroic. In that scenario (the shadow dot in the final phase) it's pretty much useless. It can help another tank stay above 10k if you time it just right, but the moment that the debuff wears off the shadow dot will finish anyone that has reduced to 1hp instantly. I had mistakenly assumed that it would work either as Tengenstein described or even that damage taken after rallying cry might effectively be absorbed into the temporary bonus hp pool, but not so.

That doesn't make Rallying Cry useless, but it does mean that in situations where there is constant damage hitting the raid it needs to be used with a the awareness that just 10 seconds after it's used, it'll be gone again. That's not a lot of time to heal a raid back up.

Loganisis
06-20-2011, 09:41 AM
What got me looking closely at it was chimeron heroic. In that scenario (the shadow dot in the final phase) it's pretty much useless. It can help another tank stay above 10k if you time it just right, but the moment that the debuff wears off the shadow dot will finish anyone that has reduced to 1hp instantly. I had mistakenly assumed that it would work either as Tengenstein described or even that damage taken after rallying cry might effectively be absorbed into the temporary bonus hp pool, but not so.

That doesn't make Rallying Cry useless, but it does mean that in situations where there is constant damage hitting the raid it needs to be used with a the awareness that just 10 seconds after it's used, it'll be gone again. That's not a lot of time to heal a raid back up.

I used it a lot when DPSing in P2 for Chi. There's no healing in that phase anyway, so another hit or 2 on a tank = win.

justinlee
06-24-2011, 02:04 AM
if u dont have last stand , maybe ur team will no one stand.
some skills of boss usually cause up to 60000+ damage. For example Nefarian , when the electrocute comes and the Animated Bone Warriors are follow u , if u dont have last stand , no one will stand...

Booi
06-24-2011, 04:29 AM
if u dont have last stand , maybe ur team will no one stand.
some skills of boss usually cause up to 60000+ damage. For example Nefarian , when the electrocute comes and the Animated Bone Warriors are follow u , if u dont have last stand , no one will stand...

because of the instant style damage of this mechanic, and the fact that it doesn't occur again for another 30 seconds, the increased duration really does little for you. your raid my find more mileage out of rallying cry.

Quinafoi
06-24-2011, 07:55 AM
because of the instant style damage of this mechanic, and the fact that it doesn't occur again for another 30 seconds, the increased duration really does little for you. your raid my find more mileage out of rallying cry.

Actually that's quite the opposite. Since electrocute won't kill anyone, you have a full 30 seconds to get the raid healed back up for another. The tank however continues to takes damage constantly both before and after the electrocute. And if they fall, the raid falls. If you need Rallying Cry for Electrocute, you're doing it wrong. Electrocute doesn't kill you. Adds kill you. Nefarian kills you. Everyone should be able to survive electrocute, it's the stuff you pile on top of that directed at the tanks that is threatening and if either tank dies it is a quick domino effect to the rest of the raid. The tank needs the cooldowns, not the raid. Dealing with electrocute for me is something like... well I guess I should cast 3 Wild Growths before the next one. Healing the raid isn't even stressful.

Tengenstein
06-24-2011, 08:55 AM
Rallyong cry the first crackle in p2 last stand will be back up by the end of p3.p

Quinafoi
06-24-2011, 09:12 AM
Rallyong cry the first crackle in p2 last stand will be back up by the end of p3.p

Phase 2 is a completely different set of rules. In phase 2 the tanks actually take less damage than the raid. This is not true of phases 1 and 3 where the vast majority of damage is on the tanks. You aren't disagreeing with what I've said in fact you're confirming it.

Darksend
06-24-2011, 01:06 PM
Actually that's quite the opposite. Since electrocute won't kill anyone, you have a full 30 seconds to get the raid healed back up for another. The tank however continues to takes damage constantly both before and after the electrocute. And if they fall, the raid falls. If you need Rallying Cry for Electrocute, you're doing it wrong. Electrocute doesn't kill you. Adds kill you. Nefarian kills you. Everyone should be able to survive electrocute, it's the stuff you pile on top of that directed at the tanks that is threatening and if either tank dies it is a quick domino effect to the rest of the raid. The tank needs the cooldowns, not the raid. Dealing with electrocute for me is something like... well I guess I should cast 3 Wild Growths before the next one. Healing the raid isn't even stressful.

unless you are on heroic, in which case electrocute without a raid cooldown will 1shot most people