PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Was having issues with our bear tank tonight...advice?



BryceE
06-09-2011, 11:48 PM
I don't have a log, I'll get one tomorrow night for sure. So just some general advice would be helpful.

We're on 10m normal Nef and I'm (pally) tanking onyxia at the start of phase 1 with the bear tanking nef and a fury war in tank gear kiting/tanking adds. Anyways, we were having issues with the bear taking just insane amounts of spike damage and she's not stam stacked. We even decided to switch the shammy healer over to me and the pally healer to the bear because his heals were bigger, etc. Our shammy healer knows shammies aren't tank healers but he can tank heal all day long and he couldn't keep her up.

Well, we did manage p2 a few attempts and actually got into p3 a few attempts so we're getting there, but there were a lot of issues with the healing on the bear. Anyone have any insight on bears on nef normal?

Any advice I can pass on to em and I'll be sure to post a log for tomorrow since I think the same thing is going to happen. Also, she denies being hard to heal for some reason.

Loganisis
06-10-2011, 12:31 AM
Link to armory? Were the damage spikes around Krackles or when ony tail-swipped the healers?

BryceE
06-10-2011, 02:12 AM
If I recall right, it wasn't around crackles or tail swipes. All would be fine and boom, she takes a 90k+ hit. Me, on the other hand, only time I take something like that is when there's a crackle/breath and I don't have anything to really mitigate it.

Here's the armory of the person: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nazgrel/diannthus/advanced

Darksend
06-10-2011, 02:44 AM
90K a hit in normal phase 1 seems a bit exaggerated, she has the same if not better gear then when I killed it on normal the first time. I had a thought and now I can pretty much confirm it by asking, who was tanking phase 3?

Because I bet she was in cat spec, link/check the logs for damage done by pulverize. If you dont see any, she is missing 12% reduction and something like 50% armor in bear form for being in cat spec to cheese damage in phase 2 and 3.

klausi
06-10-2011, 05:50 AM
She's wearing her cat gear right now, i guess (hope) she's using a stamina trinket + mirror on nef? With that gear she's only at 157k raidbuffed maximum.

90k hits aren't regulary possible, Nef is hitting for 40k top end excluding your absorbs. So 90k only during the time of positioning (= +100% damage buff on both of them).

Tengenstein
06-10-2011, 06:06 AM
If Darksend is right, and she was in her Cat spec, she would also be crittable, which would explain the 90ks

Theotherone
06-10-2011, 06:56 AM
We're on nef too and using bear/pally tank and pally, shammy and druid as heals. We have the bear on Ony and pally on nef with me (pally heals) on bear and shammy on pally. Our bear does not take a lot of damge on Ony, breaths are about the thing that hit hard. For some reason the pally tank seems to do better on nef.

BryceE
06-10-2011, 10:44 AM
We were going with me on Nef in p3, but we've changed it up since our kiter stopped going tank spec to tank the p1 adds. I now tank Ony in p1 and kite adds in p3. Didn't even think she could of been in cat spec, I'll ask her or check her spec tonight. And I won't exaggerating the 90k hits, I was going by what the healers said. They would be alright in healing her and then boom she's at 15% life (which I think is during crackle and something else, not sure though). On me during crackle and popping a small cd I don't get below half usually if I time the cd right.

Also, I don't think she has a stam trinket, only reason I do is I'm an alchemist. We can't never get the worm or vial to drop ever. Same with my damn mace on maloriak lol. And she does have the mirror of broken images, just don't know if she's using or when she's using it.

And I will be sure to get a log tonight and post it so there's more information.

Katarn
06-10-2011, 12:06 PM
You don't need a Stamina trinket for Nef.

I tanked him with ~153k raid buffed and we were fine. Only time I died is when either I screwed up, or the healer just didn't heal me.

When Nef lands, need to immediately do 3 things when moving him away from Ony:

1) Get Demo Roar up ASAP
2) Get IW up ASAP
3) Pop Barkskin

You should be able to move him out of Ony's range before the first breath. Don't turn around and run away, just back away. Running away means you can't dodge and end up taking more damage.

The 90k hits you are talking about can come from two things:

1) Breath immediately followed by a melee attack.
2) Electrocute.

#1 shouldn't be a problem because the breath has a cast time, and is channeled. The tank should be healing during it.
#2 shouldn't be a problem because the Electrocutes should be CD'ed.

BryceE
06-10-2011, 08:17 PM
Ok, here's the log from tonight. Best attempt was 35% p3.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nr31ejt87dpdz2t7/

Darksend
06-10-2011, 08:36 PM
average melee damage taken 25K so I assume I was either right about the spec or right about the 90K being grossly exaggerated

Katarn
06-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Honestly, the damage taken on your Feral is pretty much fine for the most part. What I would like to know, is how the hell your Paladin tank is taking so much damage.

Our 10m Nef kill last week: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-f17pdp297qvipmxa/sum/damageTaken/?s=10568&e=11069

The big difference being I tank skeletons and the Paladin tanks Nef. As you can see your Feral is pretty much on course to take the same amount of damage as our Paladin, probably slightly less. Your paladin however, is going to take a helluva lot more damage than I am.

That being said, your Feral could change a few things:

1) Has 4 yellow gems. Only needs 2.
2) Symbiotic Worm is kinda "meh". I'd rather have Fluid Death.
3) Missing 1 reforge, and has another item reforged to Mastery instead of Dodge.

Your overall raid DPS is also REALLY low. At that rate you're not going to be able to kill Nef before the soft enrage, let alone have problems worrying about your tank.

Tengenstein
06-10-2011, 08:52 PM
Wait, you're THREE tanking 10 man?

BryceE
06-10-2011, 09:46 PM
Yes we are. We couldn't get a dps to successfully kite the adds.

And what do you mean I'm taking hella damage o.o. All the healers are saying the opposite and saying the feral is taking more damage. And they also said she wasn't taking nearly as much as last night, but still more than me.

And what could I do differently to take lesser damage? I'm using mastery/prismatic elixirs, mastery food, I'm at 97% avoidance whenever procs, around 90-94% normally.

EDIT: If that warrior tanking the adds was in his fury spec he'd be the one topping the meters and not the warlock, the warrior does around 20k+ substained.

EDIT2: Come to look at it all our raid is taking like triple the damage ya'll are taking in that log you posted o.o.

Tengenstein
06-10-2011, 10:12 PM
We generally CC as many as we can (2-3) and have an enh shammy do the leg work with a rockbiter weapon and have him switch weapons once the adds fall over. Though with a couple CCed we've had Frost DKs just tank them with Glyph of dark succour, and our Holy pally tank them with RF up, if you can get 3 CCed an Resto shammie can just about survive with a little luck, though they'll need some Mana pumped back in them to make phase 2.

Get your hunter to stop using the Fox, you're bringing 3 tanks, you souldn't have a problem putting the dehaste buff up, both you and the druid do it passively. Get him to provide a buff you don't have. Like the +4% physical damage of a ravager

The reason i suspect the you are tanking more damage than Katarn's druid is becuase Paladins have a much more dificult time putting up their melee dehaste and physical damage debuffs, JotJ is alot harder to keep up on 5 targets than Infected wounds

BryceE
06-10-2011, 10:27 PM
And that hunter was there just for tonight, he's usually not there. Our core team consists of the following:

Paladin tank (me)
Druid tank
Holy pally
Resto shammy
Disc Priest / Resto Druid
Aff Lock
Ele shammy
Fury/Prot warrior
Ass Rogue
and whatever we can get to fill in

Tengenstein
06-10-2011, 11:07 PM
the Disc priest/resto Druid can Shackle/Root respectively. I don't know if the adds can be hexed but with an ele shaman thats definetly worth a pop, they'll be immune to the lock's fears. but still if you can get a second CC in your Fury warrior shouldn't have too much of a problem kiting the other 3 adds in def stance, if he puts demoshout up (he doesn't in you log which is bad) and makes good work of heroic leap, intercept, the ability that resets intercept, and intervene.

Really its nice that you get past phase 1, but 3 tanking it to get past phase 1 is just extending the wipe. if i'm reading it right, you struggling to push nef much past 50% in phase 3. His adds are just gonna end up being alive for too long and due to thier stacking damage buff are eventually gonna kill you.

I'm not sure of your bear's CD usage, I'm seeing not alot of Image use, but i do see a grounded plasma shield. That's quite a gamble, It's hard to say if its actually worse than not popping a CD. if that thing fails it's a wipe. i'd really try to get her to use Image for electrocutes and Barkskin for breaths.

Katarn
06-11-2011, 12:45 AM
Wait, you're THREE tanking 10 man?

The common strategy is to have either a Plate DPS or Feral group the adds up in P1. This is nothing new.


Barkskin for breaths.
Why on earth would you BS a breath? You need to be cycling everything in P3 to handle electrocutes. If your healers can't handle healing through a breath, there's a bigger problem.


JotJ is alot harder to keep up on 5 targets than Infected wounds
I specifically do not put up IW on the skeletons. Unless I want them to get caught by fire. I suspect I'm just better at movement than he is.

But yeah, your Feral tank isn't the problem. Your overall raid DPS being way low is the problem.

Tengenstein
06-11-2011, 08:48 AM
The common strategy is to have either a Plate DPS or Feral group the adds up in P1. This is nothing new.
.....
But yeah, your Feral tank isn't the problem. Your overall raid DPS being way low is the problem.

Having a Plate DPS tank the the adds in phase 1 isn't three tanking it. Bringing a protection warrior in place of a DPS to do it is. The reason their raid DPS is way low is becuase its 3 healers, 3 tanks and 4 DPS. Prot Warriors are not able to pull big numbers without having something eat their face.

I forgot IW had a snare effect.

The reason i suggest using a minor/short CD cooldown for breaths is that with the TB trinket, which the druid is using and one external CD you have enough CDs to cover 5 electrocutes in P3 and still have a CD to spare for the breaths.

Katarn
06-11-2011, 09:48 AM
Having a Plate DPS tank the the adds in phase 1 isn't three tanking it. Bringing a protection warrior in place of a DPS to do it is. The reason their raid DPS is way low is becuase its 3 healers, 3 tanks and 4 DPS. Prot Warriors are not able to pull big numbers without having something eat their face.
Oh jeez, I didn't even notice it was a prot warrior. Nevermind then.


The reason i suggest using a minor/short CD cooldown for breaths is that with the TB trinket, which the druid is using and one external CD you have enough CDs to cover 5 electrocutes in P3 and still have a CD to spare for the breaths.
Your raid DPS is going to need to be really high to get him to 50% before P3. I doubt they're going to accomplish that. Typically it will be 2 in P1, 1 in P2, and 6 in P3.

And you still shouldn't need to CD any breaths, at all.

BryceE
06-11-2011, 10:40 AM
Right now it's 2 in P1, 0 in P2 and the rest in P3. I've tried talking to the raid leader and guildmaster, but it's no use they're not going to change anything. At this point I think it's just going to be wipefest after wipefest every week. Maybe if the dps was higher with 3 tanks, but yea.

Katarn
06-11-2011, 12:07 PM
You might be able to do it that way if you have 5 full time DPS. But that's pushing it. And your DPS have to be really good.

BryceE
06-11-2011, 12:32 PM
We're going to do it next week with the warrior kiting in Fury spec with def stance. That way once he stops kiting adds we have his 20k dps. And we'll get the priest to shackle one of them and throw out some earthbind totems as well.

Loganisis
06-11-2011, 12:58 PM
Make sure he puts his fury equipment w/ and w/o sheild on his toolbar, so he can quickly change gear.

BryceE
06-11-2011, 12:58 PM
Yea, we got that all squared away for him for next week's raid.

Tengenstein
06-11-2011, 01:34 PM
As Katarn says 2:2:6 is the optimal way to do it. that said though we try to hold phase 1 & 2 longer so we're close to 70% by the beginning of P2 and 50% by the time phase 2 ends.

Phase one he have all dps on ony till the kiter has adds to kite, we shift 3 of the 4 remaining DPS to Nef once he lands, once the adds have tuckered themselves out the kiter joins on Nef, and one ranged may switch back to Ony if if she's not dying as fast enough, once nef hits 73% all DPS switch to Ony, or earlier if she isn't taking enough damage. You want her death to happen just before she explodes.

Phase 2 we have 1 ranged 1 healer on each of the 3 pillars with 1 melee of two of them and the two tanks on the other one. The ranged stat dPSing ony while the tanks and the Melee lay into the prototypes. if the Raid is topped off we push nef past 70%, if not the trange swap to the Prototype on thier pillar, as soon as the healers have stabilsed the raidthey switch back and push nef, repeat for 60%. the Ranged on the tank's pillar may need to break off from nef and nuke the prototype if P2 is going to time out, or if nef will hit 50% before the end of P2. Ideally the last prototype dies as Nef reaches around 52%.

Phase 3 we probably do badly. We have the Nef tank take him to the endge of the arena, we have all the DPS and his healer stac between nef and the wall, if the fire comes the nef tank simple back peddles round the arena to move the raid out of fire. The one healer should be able to handlethe 5 DPS, himself and the Nef tank, we use a Resto shaman for this becuase our Resto shaman called Dibs.

the Ony Tank meanwhile moves fast and trys to keep all the adds out of fire, as a prot warrior i find this pretty easy given the charges, intervenes and Heroic leaps, I've never managed to have all of them fall over at once but i generally manage to get each one to fall over at least once. I find a well timed stun just before an electrocute happens helps the healers immensly later in the fight once it becomes harder to reset the adds. Halting all incoming damage on you for a second or two really helps the healers keep you up. I do this with shockwave, i'd assume a glyphed Holy Wrath would also work, thought the adds have to be out of fire to be stunned. We generally pop Lust when Nef hits 25%, this has a couple of advantages, firstly the longer phase 3 goes on the harder the add tank is to keep up, having Lust later means that the healers can heal faster preventing add tank death, secondly, quite a few DPS classes gaina DPS boost once their target drops below a certain threshold having higher hast at this point is going buff raid DPS when it's at its highest. While your Fury warrior might not care that he's got 55% extra haste during his Execute phase, your Aff lock is going to be having kittens as Drain Soul starts ticking REALLY FAST.

Prexie
06-11-2011, 02:15 PM
With the p3 method of placing nef in the middle you can indefinitely reset adds until nef enrages.

Katarn
06-11-2011, 09:47 PM
With the p3 method of placing nef in the middle you can indefinitely reset adds until nef enrages.

While true, it also adds more moving parts. Which may or may not be ideal depending on you group.

BryceE
06-12-2011, 12:33 AM
I just got done doing a solid 10 hours on Nef. About 90% of the attempts we got him into P3 at 24% with 3 tanks. I think we came to the conclusion that we need 2 tanks only with a plate dps that can dish out a good 15k+++ to beat his soft enrage.

Our dps was 15.7k, 15.2k, 15k from the 3 hunters, 11.9k from a fire mage, 9.8k from a bear/cat, 7.6k from one tank, 7.4k from the other tank, with a disc priest smite healing for 3-4k. Managed to get the adds down 2 times and after that the flames came to fast to get em down anymore and we kept running out of space to kite adds in.

Tengenstein
06-12-2011, 01:44 AM
Jesus , thats commitment. I hope you're RL gets the message that 3 tanking it just isn't going to work. I wish i could offer you more help with sorting the adds in P1. It sounds like your just hitting the soft enrage.

Our Kiting Enh shammies has recently taken to putting out our raid up on youtube, and got last weeks nef kill on tape, maybe it will help your raid a little on p1. But yeah try not to pay too much attention to the bits where we screw up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgqUfF2UDxs&feature=BFa&list=ULjNvPxW8ZneA&index=3

Subsanity
06-12-2011, 07:58 AM
Our group used a frost spec dk in blood presence for adds and with good cc from a frost mage and warlock worked well.

Destruyen
06-12-2011, 09:05 AM
if your mage is decent you could have him go frost and kite adds in p1 with slows and rings and only use 2 tanks...

BryceE
06-12-2011, 09:07 AM
This was with my RL's other guild rather than my own. I just wanted him down so badly I spent all that time with em. Now we know for a fact we can't 3 tank it in our guild. I liked the raid comp of the other group better than ours to =/.

And our guild raid is slightly higher in dps than this one was. If we can get the plate dps kept alive for 50 seconds it's smooth sailing because he puts out 20-25k substained, our lock puts out around 18k-20k, our hunter (not the fillin hunter) does around 18k - 20k. Then whatever dps we have to fill in at the moment, plus tanks.

Katarn
06-12-2011, 09:46 AM
Just make sure your raid helps with kiting (Frost Traps/Novas, etc) and it'll be fine.

Subsanity
06-13-2011, 01:07 PM
yea good discussion cause crackles suck FTW!

Subsanity
06-13-2011, 01:11 PM
yea surv hunters and frost mages are necessity for this fight for freezes and slows, regardless if plate dps kites still need those freezes or it will be butt loads of unnecessary healing which can cause wipes easy since this is a very healing intensive fight.

Lumines
06-13-2011, 01:19 PM
Having tanked and healed it, I disagree. We have an Arms Warrior pick up the adds, drag them to Ony's side and use a Shield Wall macro for the last few seconds that the adds are alive. He much prefers it when there are no external slows on the adds because he finds it easier to control them when he's the only one doing so (with Piercing Howl). I don't find it at all difficult to heal through, and all the adds are down long before we get our first crackle.

leethaxor
06-13-2011, 03:00 PM
I know we do this for heroic but I'm not sure if its possible in normal.

Have one tank grabs adds + ony. Blow BL and just hard burn into p2 as fast as possible. Using every tank CD and external keep him alive.

Tengenstein
06-13-2011, 04:21 PM
Having tanked and healed it, I disagree. We have an Arms Warrior pick up the adds, drag them to Ony's side and use a Shield Wall macro for the last few seconds that the adds are alive. He much prefers it when there are no external slows on the adds because he finds it easier to control them when he's the only one doing so (with Piercing Howl). I don't find it at all difficult to heal through, and all the adds are down long before we get our first crackle.


I've done it as Arms without piercing howl, with the only external help being a lifegrip, creative use of heroic leap and charging Nef from max range on CD will see you through. Once you've sussed out a strategy, its pretty easy, I've had frost DKs tank them with glyph of Dark succour, Holy pallies tank them with Righteous Fury, i wouldn't say Frost mages are a necessity as I don't think we've had a Frost mage or Survival unter available to us Since the first night we downed him