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Nexrus
06-07-2011, 02:30 PM
First of all I hope this is the right forum - I really didn't know where to post this.

My guild is currently preparing for 4.2 and we're trying to decide who we need to farm our 4 piece sets for. I know a few people in the guild are going to have instant upgrades from rep that will replace their tier piece so its pointless to farm it for them.

I've yet to see any of the tanking pieces in 4.2 (have they been released?) Does anyone know if it the 4 piece bonus will be worth it for prot warriors? Thanks

klausi
06-07-2011, 03:52 PM
http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemsets?filter=minle=378;maxle=378#0+4+1

Both boni aren't gamebreaking, 2 piece increasing your mainnuke damage while 4 piece granting some avoidance after using a cooldown.

Gneecapper
06-07-2011, 04:13 PM
Itemization for Prot warrior gear seems lazy, maybe its just me but same sort of stat distribution (ie. threat stats on shoulder + helm, defense oriented on the others w/ double avoidance on the chest) as whats currently on our teir. Not a huge complaint, makes upgrading pieces easy but I was hoping to wear both my helm and shoulders this teir. That 4 set is really nice I can't see myself passing it up.

Bigbad
06-07-2011, 04:15 PM
4 piece could make you unhittable 2/3 of the time instead of 1/3 of the time, would say that can be a significant advantage.

Loganisis
06-07-2011, 04:59 PM
Itemization for Prot warrior gear seems lazy, maybe its just me but same sort of stat distribution (ie. threat stats on shoulder + helm, defense oriented on the others w/ double avoidance on the chest) as whats currently on our teir. Not a huge complaint, makes upgrading pieces easy but I was hoping to wear both my helm and shoulders this teir. That 4 set is really nice I can't see myself passing it up.

This is something Blizzard has come out and said they were doing - they didn't want to make too many clear BiS pieces so players and to think about about their class... But when there's only 3 stats that matter for tanking, the result is you get threat rating on tier gear.

I'm thinking the helm is the offset. No mastery on it so the 282 on the shoulders > helm unless you're hitting 102.4 even though hit is only half as good as expertise.

Gneecapper
06-07-2011, 05:17 PM
I just figured they'd mix it up a bit and not have the threat stats be on the same 2 pieces. They havent really done anything to get away from clear BIS. There are still plenty of the BIS Gear Lists guides for every class and spec.

The mastery on the shoulders may beat the helm which is w/o mastery but look at the stat distribution. You get almost 100 more parry rating on the helm than you do mastery on the shoulders. I don't know how they weight piece stat distribution though so shoulders may be alotted alot less. Either way I'll wait till I see what the offset pieces provide before I make up my mind on what to go after.

Personally I'd rather wear OS helms than shoulders as the helm can be hidden if it looks terrible. I just wanted to be able to pack my full teir look or having something like chest which i can cover up be the OS piece. I like the new warrior teir graphics, look like a magma ninja lol.

Gneecapper
06-07-2011, 05:19 PM
Also something I noticed is the stat distribution is identical for all 3 plate wearing tanks.

Loganisis
06-07-2011, 06:13 PM
I just figured they'd mix it up a bit and not have the threat stats be on the same 2 pieces. They havent really done anything to get away from clear BIS. There are still plenty of the BIS Gear Lists guides for every class and spec.

The mastery on the shoulders may beat the helm which is w/o mastery but look at the stat distribution. You get almost 100 more parry rating on the helm than you do mastery on the shoulders. I don't know how they weight piece stat distribution though so shoulders may be alotted alot less. Either way I'll wait till I see what the offset pieces provide before I make up my mind on what to go after.

1. Yes, there are BiS lists, but it's not as clear cut as it was in wrath (bonus armor for tanks > all). WoW is a game of math, so there is a best in slot, but it's not as easy as looking at gear and saying it has X and Y so it's BiS, there's more to it. There are realitvely few pieces with the #1 and #2 rating both on them, so outside of those slots, it's reforging to find the BiS.

So BiS do exist, but they're not /facepalm easy to identify.

2a. You can't compare pure itemization points between head and shoulders. http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44718-item_level_mechanics/ Shoulders of the same item level have an itemization budget that is 75% as large as helms, unless there's been a change I haven't heard. So apples to apples between head and shoulders doesn't work. So you have to compare T12 set shoulders versus other T12 level shoulders and see what you're gaining/losing and compare that to T12 set helm versus other T12 level helms to see which would be the off-set.

2b. Until you reach block capped (unhittable) mastery = 1.5x the value of parry/dodge at a minimum to hit 102.4%. So 282 mastery *1.5 = 423 equivalent points. More when you factor in the diminishing returns on the 388 parry rating. Now, it could be that at some point DR is added to mastery (?) in which case this would change, but until you are block capped (unhittable), mastery > parry.

So going with the tier shoulders and their mastery (even though it has hit instead of expertise) and hopefully grabbing a helm with mastery will probably be better than going with the helm.

Of course the chest doesn't have mastery either - so maybe there's a chest piece with just overwhelming mastery? (I haven't really looked at the gear lists) in which case that might be the off-set?

klausi
06-07-2011, 08:16 PM
Chest - http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items=71405;71604 dodge/mastery off piece
Off-hands aren't implemented yet
Off-heads are a high strength one (+111 str!) http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items=71606;71459 if you reforge the tier piece from parry to mastery you actually gain more mastery then from the offpiece while maintaing 1/5 of your desired expertise rating
Off-panties aren't implemented yet
Off-shoulders are a high strength one (+98 str) with dodge/parry or you can pick up higher ilvl low strength with dodge/hit http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items=71432;71612;71608 (http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items=71606)

All interesting strength loot:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4.4?filter=minle=391;cr=20:103:96;crs=1:3:3; crv=0:0:0#0+8+1

We should really wait and see what Blizz is going for on the latest ptr. It's 7 bosses with 12 pieces of loot each excluding tokens and a lot of smaller pieces are aquired via VP with 4.2, you won't see a tanking gun/relic/wand on any loottable. And don't forget about the easier accessible tier tokens, you'll most likely get panties/chest/hands via VP/PvP Boss while Staghelm and Raggi keep head & shoulder tokens.

swelt
06-08-2011, 05:45 AM
That 'all' link can be slightly clearer if you want to see just the offset loot: http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4.4?filter=minle=391;cr=20:103:96:12;crs=1:3 :3:2;crv=0:0:0:0 - and this link shows where it all drops: http://www.wowheadnews.com/blog=189887/patch-4-2-firelands-boss-loot-including-where-pureblood-fire-hawk-drops

I'm not sure that there is actually much more offset loot to be added.
- There are a pair of 'omnispec' (hit/mastery) gloves: http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=71419
- Offset legs: http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=71444
- 'Omnispec' (hit/mastery) legs: http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=71431
- There appear to be two weapon options: http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=2?filter=minle=391%3Bcr=20%3A103%3A96%3A12%3 Bcrs=1%3A3%3A3%3A2%3Bcrv=0%3A0%3A0%3A0%3Bty=15%3A1 3%3A0%3A4%3A7
and just one shield (sadface - although at least it doesn't drop from the last boss) http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=71460
- Crafted gloves: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99440 & Crafted boots: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=99453 both require 8 living embers. I can't see many guilds crafting these before they get people started on legendary chains

JP Rewards:
Thrown - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=71218
Wrist - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=70937
Neck - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=70935
Finger - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=70940

Note the socket on the bracer, might make it a good first purchase in terms of bang-for-buck unless you get lucky with the early drops - but the long view says 'get the ranged' as there won't be another.

On the crafting note, I've not seen any info on whether Living Embers will be purchasable for Justice points. So far, I've seen plenty of people assuming that you will, given that you could buy Primordial Saronite in that way, but no evidence to show you actually can. Even if you can, I think most people will probably go for items before embers with their points.

Bigbad
06-08-2011, 09:01 AM
Note the socket on the bracer, might make it a good first purchase in terms of bang-for-buck unless you get lucky with the early drops - but the long view says 'get the ranged' as there won't be another.

On the crafting note, I've not seen any info on whether Living Embers will be purchasable for Justice points. So far, I've seen plenty of people assuming that you will, given that you could buy Primordial Saronite in that way, but no evidence to show you actually can. Even if you can, I think most people will probably go for items before embers with their points.

Those bracers aren't very good both http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=70920 from firelands or the 372 ones from halfus are better, hmm just noticed the strength difference that makes em slightly better but still. Those differences in strenghtvalues are the weirdest thing in the whole itemization atm someone explain to me why thats there? Probably best to buy Tier12 with valorpoints if thats possible, neck looks nice to me but there drops a boe neck in firelands as well. And abuse an alt for some living embers if they can be bought ;)

swelt
06-08-2011, 09:10 AM
Hmm, maybe. Hadn't looked at the stats too closely, I tend to assume stuff with socket is normally > something without, but could well be wrong in this case. Not seen what the cost of tier pieces is (assuming that at least some are bought from JP).

Gneecapper
06-08-2011, 01:25 PM
1. Yes, there are BiS lists, but it's not as clear cut as it was in wrath (bonus armor for tanks > all). WoW is a game of math, so there is a best in slot, but it's not as easy as looking at gear and saying it has X and Y so it's BiS, there's more to it. There are realitvely few pieces with the #1 and #2 rating both on them, so outside of those slots, it's reforging to find the BiS.

So BiS do exist, but they're not /facepalm easy to identify.

2a. You can't compare pure itemization points between head and shoulders. http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44718-item_level_mechanics/ Shoulders of the same item level have an itemization budget that is 75% as large as helms, unless there's been a change I haven't heard. So apples to apples between head and shoulders doesn't work. So you have to compare T12 set shoulders versus other T12 level shoulders and see what you're gaining/losing and compare that to T12 set helm versus other T12 level helms to see which would be the off-set.

2b. Until you reach block capped (unhittable) mastery = 1.5x the value of parry/dodge at a minimum to hit 102.4%. So 282 mastery *1.5 = 423 equivalent points. More when you factor in the diminishing returns on the 388 parry rating. Now, it could be that at some point DR is added to mastery (?) in which case this would change, but until you are block capped (unhittable), mastery > parry.

So going with the tier shoulders and their mastery (even though it has hit instead of expertise) and hopefully grabbing a helm with mastery will probably be better than going with the helm.

Of course the chest doesn't have mastery either - so maybe there's a chest piece with just overwhelming mastery? (I haven't really looked at the gear lists) in which case that might be the off-set?

Not trying to start a flame war here but did you read my post before quoting it and refuting what I had stated therein?

You: "You can't compare pure itemization points between head and shoulders"
Me: "I don't know how they weight piece stat distribution though so shoulders may be alotted alot less"

You: "So you have to compare T12 set shoulders versus other T12 level shoulders and see what you're gaining/losing and compare that to T12 set helm versus other T12 level helms to see which would be the off-set."
Me: "Either way I'll wait till I see what the offset pieces provide before I make up my mind on what to go after."

Where's the math supporting Mastery = 1.5x more than avoidance stats? I know mastery is weighted heavier in terms of its usefulness in damage reduction and if you look me up on the armory I gear as such, but I've never seen a straight value like that. From what I understand actually the more parry you have the better mastery becomes.

Unhittable based on the gear will be unobtainable until possibly from heroic w/ dual mastery trinkets at this time afaik. Can't find the off set shoulders yet but based on the offset helm, our teir helm likely will be BIS given the wasted itemization on str for the off set. Combine that w/ expertise > hit and like someone stated you can actually reforge that huge parry rating for quite a bit of mastery if needed, or you could do it to the expertise if you'd rather.

This is all just me speculating. I'm not trying to make a BIS list but I over think everything so of course I'm gonna analyze stuff like this.

Bigbad
06-08-2011, 01:58 PM
Mastery is 1,5x combattable coverage or actually more like 2,2x at this gearlevel. As far as damage reduction goes I haven't checked in a while how much better it is but the biggest value of mastery is that it is more reliable since it covers more hits.

Loganisis
06-08-2011, 02:19 PM
You: "You can't compare pure itemization points between head and shoulders"
Me: "I don't know how they weight piece stat distribution though so shoulders may be alotted alot less"


So I provided the information you didn't know... Didn't realize it was an 'attack'. However your initial post was based on the assumption that they were directly comparable. I posted the information showing they weren't in order to show why that assumption was not correct. Information has always been the best way to stop incorrect information from being spread around.



You: "So you have to compare T12 set shoulders versus other T12 level shoulders and see what you're gaining/losing and compare that to T12 set helm versus other T12 level helms to see which would be the off-set."


The mastery on the shoulders may beat the helm which is w/o mastery but look at the stat distribution. You get almost 100 more parry rating on the helm than you do mastery on the shoulders.

Me: "Either way I'll wait till I see what the offset pieces provide before I make up my mind on what to go after."


I quoted your comment that response was actually responding to. Your either way comment wasn't the point of indicating the comparision needs to be between the tier and off teir in the same slot, not the pieces between slots.


Where's the math supporting Mastery = 1.5x more than avoidance stats? I know mastery is weighted heavier in terms of its usefulness in damage reduction and if you look me up on the armory I gear as such, but I've never seen a straight value like that. From what I understand actually the more parry you have the better mastery becomes.

Sorry, I'm going to get a little snippy here - ALL OVER TANKSPOT.

Warriors' gearing is for getting as close to unhittable once they have sufficient stamina (which is latent in normal/heroics and soon becomes latent on hardmode from gear). Mastery gives 1.5% block per point of mastery, which is 179.something rating.

Parry dodge give 1% per 179.something rating.

So... Mastery = 1.5x dodge/parry to work towards unhittble - and that's before factoring in diminishing returns on dodge and parry. For pallies it's 2.25% block per point of mastery.


Unhittable based on the gear will be unobtainable until possibly from heroic w/ dual mastery trinkets at this time afaik. Can't find the off set shoulders yet but based on the offset helm, our teir helm likely will be BIS given the wasted itemization on str for the off set. Combine that w/ expertise > hit and like someone stated you can actually reforge that huge parry rating for quite a bit of mastery if needed, or you could do it to the expertise if you'd rather.

Block capped (unhittable) is actually unobtainable at all for warriors, but it's still the proper gearing design to maximize survivability. Every theorycrafter has come to this conclusion. Check EJ, Tankpost, posters like Koji, RAWR, weights on wowreforge or askmrrobot.

Not being able to hit unhittable doesn't make any less correct to gear to get as close as possible.

****

There were a lot of assumptions in your original post that weren't correct. I provided information for them and why those assumptions were not accurate.

klausi
06-08-2011, 05:55 PM
Paladin are able to reach "unhittable"/"blockcapped" with ilvl 359 (http://chardev.org/?profile=143447) and roughly 3k avoidance + 4k mastery rating combined while still sitting at comfortable 160k hitpoints raidbuffed.

1.5/2.25=2/3 (warrior mastery rating versus paladin mastery rating)so adding another 1400ish mastery while remaing at the same level of avoidance should bring you very close to that "block cap" for warriors as well.

Looking at mirror (http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=62471) (ilvl 359, 321 mastery rating) vs new rep trinkets (http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=69200) (ilvl 391, 433 mastery rating) and ~ 150 additional rating (distributed on both stats) on the larger pieces of gear i can cleary see the possibilities.

veksen
06-10-2011, 05:53 AM
Until you reach block capped (unhittable) mastery = 1.5x the value of parry/dodge

I have much different numbers, mastery started off below dodge and parry, it only gets superior at about 10-11% dodge/parry (averaging).
In mostly 359s and a couple 372s mastery was worth about 1.15 times dodge/parry
3-4 upgrades later I'm at 1.23 times dodge/parry

It will really depend if we can find a dual avoidance helm or shoulder to pick which would be offspec :)

swelt
06-10-2011, 06:34 AM
Alysrazor drops http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=70737 (dodge/parry)
Baleroc drops http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=70916 (Parry/Mastery)

pulled
07-21-2011, 05:55 AM
i feel now that firelands has been out for a few weeks and people are starten to really roll on gear and down heroic bosses we should revisit the issue of A. which off-set piece is best B. should we even consider using the tier 4 set bonus C. unhittable, is it possible?

it seems to me that unhittable is possible for warriors and i honestly am thinking more and more about not using the 4 set at all. i would like to hear your thoughts on this. where can we find a bis list?

veksen
07-22-2011, 04:25 AM
Without going for unhittable, I built the following BiS template : http://chardev.org/?profile=158358 leaving me at 98.57%. I believe it would be possible to go with a mastery elixir, and maybe need to swap a couple gems, but it's definitly doable.

I started building the set using my actual stat values, that I gather using Airowird (WarTotem) spreadsheet (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?71824-The-Cataclystic-Protection-Warrior-Spreadsheet). I first balance parry and dodge including their HtL relation, once that is done, I gather dodge, parry, and mastery (SB/cd) BurstTime values. I then compare armor to mastery in terms of damage reduction. Depending on the value of mastery, I get a value between 1 mastery = 12.7 armor and 1 mastery = 8.7 armor. I obviously use more precise numbers, but you get the idea. I gather the value for armor like that, and then compare stam to armor according to their EH values. In the end, I get stat values that I believe are right for the way I gear up (Burst Time Reduction > Damage Reduction > CTC > EH). I then need to build a set using these values, after that set is built, I use the stats of the new set, and get new values. I repeat this until the stat values don't change, and the set is final.

Wowhead filters of my final values : http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=minle=353;maxle=404;ub=1;cr=23:21:79; crs=4:4:4;crv=0:0:0;gm=3;rf=1;wt=170:45:46:22:20:4 1;wtv=1.138:0.7:0.7:0.512:0.189:0.097;gb=1 (http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=minle=353;maxle=404;ub=1;cr=23:21:79; crs=4:4:4;crv=0:0:0;gm=3;rf=1;wt=170:45:46:22:20:4 1;wtv=1.138:0.7:0.7:0.512:0.189:0.097;gb=1#shoulde r)

Alright so for the offset piece, we need to compe the head and shoulder, we have 3 choices :

Using my values, gemmed and reforged using wowhead scales :


H Offset Helm, H Tier Shoulders : Helm of Blazing Glory (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71459) 399.83 + Shoulderguards of the Molten Giant (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71608) 316.06 = 715.9
H Set Helm, H Rag Shoulders : Faceguard of the Molten Giant (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71606) 366.35 + Pauldrons of Roaring Flame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71612) 328.41 = 694.76
H Set Helm, H Alysrazor Shoulders : Faceguard of the Molten Giant (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71606) 366.35 + Spaulders of Recurring Flame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71432) 293.65 = 660.00

I know Alysrazor shoulders are out of the race, but they need to be kept in consideration, because H Ragnaros will not be available for a lot of players for quite some time. Alternatively, we can add regular Ragnaros shoulders to the list, and at the same time, regular T12 helm, from Rag as well :

Reg Set Helm, Reg Rag Shoulders : Faceguard of the Molten Giant (http://www.wowhead.com/item=70944) 334.19 + Pauldrons of Roaring Flame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=70921) 298.20 = 632.39
Reg Set Helm, H Alysrazor Shoulders : Faceguard of the Molten Giant (http://www.wowhead.com/item=70944) 334.19 + Spaulders of Recurring Flame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=71432) 293.65 = 627.84


The regular rag shoulders (ilvl 384) would outscale the heroic Alysrazor shoulders (ilvl 391).

klausi
07-22-2011, 05:52 AM
http://chardev.org/?profile=162814 102.37% avoidance + miss + block @ 202k hp raidbuffed with a flask
http://chardev.org/?profile=162820 almost the same with a permafrost cape and a second 391 ring instead

Both using 3 offpieces. If i want to do the same with 4 piece it's a tough job reaching "block cap" without the elixir combo or a second (pure) mastery trinket.

Another thing to consider especially for 10m: accessibility
Both Rag shoulders and T12 heroic helmet may be out of reach for a while (at least until some more nerfs fly by), so you might want to calculate with heroic Baleroc helmet, heroic Bethilac chest and the nonheroic Ragnaros shoulders for now. Or not calculating with Rag shoulders after all due to their style, i honestly can't bear running around a full tier with them. I ogle with something like that http://chardev.org/?profile=162836 (2* elixir, 4 piece, baleroc helmet)

veksen
07-22-2011, 07:25 AM
You're right, I wasn't thinking that the heroic tier came from Rag as well!

And chardev won't load for me atm, not sure why.

And haha, their look was also one of my concern when calculating which offpiece I wanted. I was glad it wasn't the one.

Something else : You're calculating BiS sets that almost make it unhittable (0.03% off), while using offpieces. You want to consider that while gathering that set up, you won't be unhittable. The 4 piece gets you unhittable 2/3 of the time. To me, it's not worth it to dodge it, especially like you say it, some items will be out of range, and sometimes, you'll just get very bad lucky on some items that won't drop (according to our guild luck with shields, we won't see a shield in the next 6 months..).

Kazeyonoma
07-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Moved to Gearing forum.

IKT
08-07-2011, 11:29 AM
I got the Stoneheart Necklace for parry + mastery, but I see a lot of tanks with Firebound Gorget which is expertise/mastery, anyone know why?

Fetzie
08-07-2011, 01:59 PM
You can upgrade the Firebound Gorget to 391 item level with the boss token drop, you cannot upgrade the Valor necklace.

klausi
08-07-2011, 02:57 PM
1250 valor points you can spend on the three tier items, ranged/relic slot and the ring first. It's still one ID until you can affort all three tier items and those are (well regulary) bigger upgrades than the necklace.

After reforging you look at 227 mastery + 46 dodge (=273) versus 165 mastery + 145 parry (=310), which comes pretty close at combat table coverage.

Tengenstein
08-07-2011, 04:37 PM
Especially as parry seems to be on everything

edeesis
08-09-2011, 12:13 AM
Without going for unhittable, I built the following BiS template : http://chardev.org/?profile=158358 leaving me at 98.57%. I believe it would be possible to go with a mastery elixir, and maybe need to swap a couple gems, but it's definitly doable.

I changed a few things in your profile that made it unhittable. If you add Kings, Battle Shout, and Food buff, and change out Scales for the Stay of Execution (reforged to mastery), you get unhittable.

(You can even use the dodge food buff instead of mastery, that way you get to use the feast that everyone else does) :cool:

pulled
08-09-2011, 05:26 AM
but i like eaten by myself in the corner : /