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View Full Version : Tanking Proper CC Pulling Procedures



methsnax
06-05-2011, 10:47 AM
First we will cover each class and which forms of CC they have available.

Druid - Hybrinate, Entangling Roots
Hunter - Freezing Trap, Wyvern Sting
Mage - Polymorph
Paladin - Repentence
Priest - Shackle Undead, Mind Control
Shaman - Hex
Warlock - Fear (Glyphed), Banish, Seduction, Enslave Demon

With the exception of Freezing Trap none of these require special positioning. That being said I am going to focus on Freezing trap because time and time again I see pulls getting fucked up because nobody knows what they are doing.

The main problem is that of coordination, someone will pull as the hunter is trapping so the mob has already moved off the intended location and you are left with an extra guy sitting around. This is particularly bad due to the extra mob getting tanked and usually ending up with dots making it unable to be cced.

There are two methods to use Freezing Trap; the first is to allow the hunter to through the trap down on the necessary mob and then to cast your other CC or pull the remaining. The second method is for the hunter to place a freezing trap off to the side and then Distracting Shot the mob (assuming it's some sort of melee, if it is a caster then silence or LoS will be required) to bring it onto the Freezing Trap.

Be mindful of the CC's and how they work, especially the Freezing Trap. Setup a CC order ahead of time to minimize your failures.

Rystrave
06-06-2011, 12:08 PM
Also say at the beginning which symbol is for which class. I've been with groups where the orange nipple was for hunters instead of druids, where the moon was for druids instead of mages, and the pink diamond for druids instead of locks.

I've always gone the color of the marking coordinates with the color of the class, lock and pally depending. It's important to go over marks before any pulls are made, instead of assuming, that way two people don't target the same mob to CC.

Quinafoi
06-06-2011, 12:28 PM
You forgot two forms of CC, one of which also has special conditions...

Spent a lot of time talking about Freezing Trap because it has some special conditions which typically mean it is the CC being applied at the time of the pull. You also forgot to mention Camoflage and it's usefulness. The Camoflage ability because it makes the hunter untargetable by any ranged attack and the Trap Launcher which allows them to fire a Freezing Trap from range, they can safely initiate a pull by Freezing a target and if under the effects of Camoflage not be attacked immediately. Because the mobs have to actually travel to get in range of the hunter, there is time for other post pull CCs to be applied and the tank can safely pick up remaining mobs before they reach melee range of the hunter. The fact that you completely neglected mention Camoflage seems to indicate even though you have some understanding of how a hunter CC is used, your knowledge is only of its limits and not it's benefits. Any other class which initiates a pull with CC will be the first player on the aggro table and since they are targetable by ranged abilities could be targeted and attacked immediately, the hunter can not (i.e. a mage using Polymorph to pull could be charged and hit by a melee attack before the tank has an opportunity to aquire the target, the hunter could not be charged).

You also neglect Sap. Which is the one form of CC that needs to be applied before the hunter's Freezing Trap since it can only be applied while out of combat.

Bind Elemental was also neglected in the list.

jere
06-06-2011, 01:31 PM
Turn Evil (Paladin) can also be a useful form of CC when you lack others. While it cannot be glyphed to hold mobs in place, it can be glyphed to be instant. It isn't as nice as other due to the running around aspect, but in instances like Shadow Fang Keep where you have room geography to help and Hex Lord Malacross (ZA) where you are closed up, it can be a possible backup.

It is also worth noting for your list that Repentance is only for Retribution spec'd paladins.

leethaxor
06-06-2011, 03:59 PM
/p CC Assignments:
/p {rt5} Is for Mage
/p {rt3} Is for Lock or Pally
/p {rt4} Is for Sham
/p {rt6} Is for Hunter
/p {rt1} Is for Rouge
/p {rt2} Is for Drood
/p Let Rouge or Hunter CC first
/p Kill {rt8} then {rt7}
My macro on my DK tank.
Mage is moon, lock/pally diamond, sham triangle, hunter square, rouge star, drood coin.

Vong
06-07-2011, 11:27 AM
Or the hunter could wyvern shot then trap..........sleeping targets don't tend to run very far IMO. Found this especially useful in the new zg/za heroics.

Reev
06-07-2011, 11:53 AM
/p CC Assignments:
/p {rt5} Is for Mage
/p {rt3} Is for Lock or Pally
/p {rt4} Is for Sham
/p {rt6} Is for Hunter
/p {rt1} Is for Rouge
/p {rt2} Is for Drood
/p Let Rouge or Hunter CC first
/p Kill {rt8} then {rt7}
My macro on my DK tank.
Mage is moon, lock/pally diamond, sham triangle, hunter square, rouge star, drood coin.

If you're going to macro it, spell rogue right.

Insahnity
06-07-2011, 12:18 PM
I find DPS to be incapable of co-ordinating cast times.

If it's a SAP + 1 other CC no problem.

If it's a Trap + 1 other, and the "Other" is smart, as soon as the trap hits the ground there is a noticable delay before the mobs react. Either while it's in flight or as soon as it lands, the second CC starts casting, and the delay is enough for the 1.5-3s cast time of most CCs.

If you have 2 CCs that require casting, then you need to co-ordinate. The most challenging is in LFD. I count down from 5 in party chat, and instruct them to cast on 2. This prepares people to be somewhat co-ordinated, and the reason I don't have them cast when I finish counting is that people are lagged/slow reflexes/texting their GF/etc. and it gives some re-assurance that it's still OK to cast even at 1 or whatever. Silly but it works. Vent makes it easier, obviously.

Special note on MC. Priest healers on Vortex Pinnacle should ALWAYS MC the healers. Reasons:
1) The healers can 1 shot heal any player from empty to full in one cast. Unless there is a complete flustercuck on Aggro, you should be able to cycle through and heal every party member (including yourself!) with the Adepts.
2) When you are done, simply run off the edge. MAKE SURE it truly is a bottomless pit, and not a ramp down below...
3) If you are marginally geared, between the immense healing power, and the fact that you CANNOT go OOM, it's stupid for you not to do it
4) One less source of damage, one less mob that need to be interrupted, less heals for the mobs, the list goes on.

Priests healers performing MC on non-healer targets is tricky but doable. Except for the purposes learning a dungeon or extremely undergeared tanks, Shadow priests MCing a target is generally worse than burning something in dungeons

Theotherone
06-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Or the hunter could wyvern shot then trap..........sleeping targets don't tend to run very far IMO. Found this especially useful in the new zg/za heroics.

Yeah, since the mobs have an annoying habit of running through the traps, I find stinging them first very helpful.

leethaxor
06-08-2011, 12:45 PM
If you're going to macro it, spell rogue right.

English has not, and doubtless will never be my strongest skill.

Reev
06-08-2011, 12:47 PM
English has not, and doubtless will never be my strongest skill.

Far better at French?

swelt
06-09-2011, 05:56 AM
This thread goes out of date in about two weeks.

When 4.2 hits, it goes like this:
- whoever can CC, does CC
- tank waits til enough CC is done, then pulls

There is no longer any need to wait for the sap before doing the sheep or the banish, you just do it. As a tank, you just need enough patience to hold off the pull until the CC is applied and the judgement to know whether the right things have been CC'd and which things to kill first from what's left.

Also note, Rogues will not only have sap, but blind also has a 1 minute PVE duration. That means they can save blind to re-CC a broken sap, or CC two targets.

Reev
06-09-2011, 06:29 AM
This thread goes out of date in about two weeks.

When 4.2 hits, it goes like this:
- whoever can CC, does CC
- tank waits til enough CC is done, then pulls

There is no longer any need to wait for the sap before doing the sheep or the banish, you just do it. As a tank, you just need enough patience to hold off the pull until the CC is applied and the judgement to know whether the right things have been CC'd and which things to kill first from what's left.

Also note, Rogues will not only have sap, but blind also has a 1 minute PVE duration. That means they can save blind to re-CC a broken sap, or CC two targets.

Yup. Kind of annoys me slightly because it breaks my favorite method of pulling on CC pulls (well that and the fact that Battle Shout won't generate threat anymore), but yeah. I'll suck it up and deal with it so that PuGs can CC better without having to be coordinated.

Theotherone
06-09-2011, 06:46 AM
I thought the change was that the cc'd target will not attack the cc'er; not that no mobs will aggro on cc. So no more hunter trap pulls? I liked those.

Fetzie
06-09-2011, 06:49 AM
Apparently groups of enemies are going to be too zoned out on whatever they might have found on the forest floor to notice that one of their friends is now a sheep, one is a frog and another got themselves turned into an ice cube. At least that is how I understood the CC changes.

swelt
06-09-2011, 07:27 AM
I thought the change was that the cc'd target will not attack the cc'er; not that no mobs will aggro on cc. So no more hunter trap pulls? I liked those.

Indeed not.


Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast. The creature will not attack the player when the crowd control wears off, and nearby creatures will not become hostile to the player either. However, if a visible player gets too close to the target creature, the creature will remember and attack the player when the crowd control effect wears off. The intent is to make it easier for dungeon groups to manage crowd control assignments and pulling packs of hostile NPCs. The abilities affected by this change are: Hibernate, Entangling Roots, Wyvern Sting (will still cause hostility when it begins to deal damage), Freezing Trap, Polymorph, Repentance, Shackle Undead, Blind, Hex, Bind Elemental, Banish, Seduction.

The RP aspect of it really can only be explained by imagining that these mobs are all absolutely stoned, and that when the other stoners that they are standing around with suddenly start turning into blocks of ice or sheep, they just assume it's a hallucination. It must be some special mystical hallucinogen that happens to completely clears itself the instant you (or anyone near you) takes any physical damage. I think if I were in charge of a dungeon, I'd ban my underlings from taking that kind of stuff!

RP be damned though, it will make it very easy for CC to get applied which may well be 'dumbing down' and 'reducing skill', I feel that it was never a very fun skill to be promoting in the first place.

Quinafoi
06-09-2011, 07:59 AM
The RP aspect of it really can only be explained by imagining that these mobs are all absolutely stoned, and that when the other stoners that they are standing around with suddenly start turning into blocks of ice or sheep, they just assume it's a hallucination.
...
RP be damned though, it will make it very easy for CC to get applied which may well be 'dumbing down' and 'reducing skill', I feel that it was never a very fun skill to be promoting in the first place.

I think you actually have this backwards. It's like you're blaming RP for this when RP would actually be the strongest opponent to this change. Because it isn't believable, its hard to role play. Role players want a believable game, even if it is fantasy it should not be ridiculous as this. Here I am a mob that can cast a spell from 40 yards away and never miss my target, yet I can't notice my buddy turning into a sheep two feet from me?

I think role players would agrue against this change (since it's unbelievable) even more than the other demographics of players.

Theotherone
06-09-2011, 08:26 AM
The RP aspect of it really can only be explained by imagining that these mobs are all absolutely stoned, and that when the other stoners that they are standing around with suddenly start turning into blocks of ice or sheep, they just assume it's a hallucination.


Just look at the plant life in ZA/ZG what other explaination could there be?

swelt
06-09-2011, 08:34 AM
I think you actually have this backwards. It's like you're blaming RP for this when RP would actually be the strongest opponent to this change.
Er no. Welcome to sarcasm 101. My points were a) this change will look really daft and probably offend RPers a lot, and b) I don't care because it will make doing dungeons less stressful for all involved.