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Chaosfate
06-01-2011, 02:01 AM
As the title says,yup...i dont get it,why are people eagerly getting this talent even when there are better talents to spend point with?
like in this thread:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?74407-Cruelty-vs.-Incite
They could have just get both (or 3 including dw) and drop the overrated thunderstuck instead of argue which is better.
In my experience,raid or 5man,i never have any problem tanking aoe mobs without thunderstuck,so that makes me more curious about this.
Of course i know it definitely help increasing your aoe threat,but is it worth dropping improved revenge or incite for it?(especially for high end raid tanking,when you have enough rage to use hs nonstop)
So my question is,in a high end raid situation,if you have only 31/33 talents point to spend with,what makes you choose thunderstuck over incite/improved revenege or others talents ?

PS:This is a question specific for tanking in a high end raid..not random 5 man instances.

klausi
06-01-2011, 02:33 AM
It's not all about threat, it's about dps. You can help your raid quite a bit with upping your aoe dps on Sinestra (i kill all whelps on my own so the raid can focus on finishing her off) or Al'Akir heroic (i deal ~ 50% of the total damage dealt to the adds), compare this to 2/2 improved Revenge which has almost no benefits in your world of endless heroic strike spamming and zero rage issues ;)

Tengenstein
06-01-2011, 02:43 AM
Becuase If you take war academy, Devastate will on average be more threat than revenge Even with Imp.revenge which means Imp revenge is purely for the increased AoE in which case thunderstruck is a much better talent, Bigger rends, Bigger TCs and Bigger shcokwaves, Or its a reage saver tool but then as you mentioned we generally have excess rage to burn rather than need save it.

Revenge as an abiltiy is in a very sorry state right now, and our talent tree offers it meh support at best. it's not that Thunderstruck is a great, it's that Revenge is just that meh.

As for ditching Incite for Thunderstruck, well its toss up do you want more AoE or more single target threat? you're not gonna be using HS on AoE and you are arguably gonna have TC and SW in a single target rotation and if you get the bleed damage debuff Rend does start ticking rather hard. I personally take both. but if you're always gonna be the add tank, or are spend most of your time tanking Trash i can see the reason to ditch incite. Or if you're just really bad and can't cant press heroic strike.

klausi
06-01-2011, 03:17 AM
Becuase If you take war academy, Devastate will on average be more threat than revenge Even with Imp.revenge
Outside of a zero-vengeance stack-szenario* revenge deals more damage even while taking the increased critical strike->deep wounds damage for devastate into account.

* and that's only true for an ilvl 372 weapon, with a 359 weapon improved revenge will always deal more damage in a raidbuffed szenario

edit: This statement is totally wrong, revenge is pretty shitty nowadays - just as Tengenstein and Booi have stated. Looks like i still used an old modifier for my calculation.

Chaosfate
06-01-2011, 03:43 AM
>klausi
killing whelps on your own? I know its possible, but still this is quite new to me (our offtank is a pal,using war as offtank in 10h sinestra is just gimping your raid unless you have no other choice).
In that case, yeah i have to agree with you,thunderstuck is a better choice.
But what about most other cases?
And could you try using a non-thunderstuck build and try to get the job done as a whelps offtank to see the difference?

>tengenstein
Thanks for the explaination, pretty much agree with you for most of the part you say, although i still think 6% increased on rend,tc,cleave wont make much difference on aoe situation, but nonetheless, it definitely helps.
But imp revenge also increased it damage by 60%..and low cost as well. So imo, i think it still play a crucial part as a prot war's threat building tools.
One thing i am not so sure is, could revenge trigger "sword and board"? The tooltip tells us it cant, yup i know i know....but i did see it triggered from revenge...perhaps it is my delusion...?Could anyone clarify on this?

Booi
06-01-2011, 04:23 AM
One thing i am not so sure is, could revenge trigger "sword and board"? The tooltip tells us it cant, yup i know i know....but i did see it triggered from revenge...perhaps it is my delusion...?Could anyone clarify on this?

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=46953
It can, but it's still behind devastate.

Tengenstein
06-01-2011, 04:38 AM
@ Klausi,Wonder were my numbers went wrong, ah well HUZZAH for revenge then! My math shows Rev behind Dev until i get ~21kap with a 359 weapon

@Chaosfate, in a sustained AoE situation, like vile swills or if you're tanking magmaws parasites in normals you're top abilities will be Rend Cleave, shockwave and thunderclap. 6% to three of your 4 best abilities adds up, and having 30% to the other one makes it the sustained aoe threat talent. for something like maloriaks green phase or just holding additional targets with splash damage awhile you burn a skull its not so great.

klausi
06-01-2011, 05:14 AM
@ Klausi,Wonder were my numbers went wrong, ah well HUZZAH for revenge then! My math shows Rev behind Dev until i get ~21kap with a 359 weapon
My bad, guess my numbers were just totally off. I still used the old revenge attackpower modifier, looks like revenge can't ever beat devastate nowadays with a 372 weapon even at 100% vengeance and with a strength pot.

@ Chaosfate (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?11416-Chaosfate)
We used the same two tanks (dk+warrior) for the entire expansion, no "bring the class" 2 prot pally -> sinestra = easymode here ;) I don't see your point in using other talents over thunderstruck on a fight where i'm assigned to deal with aoe packs.

feralminded
06-01-2011, 06:20 AM
You might think you don't need thunderstruck ... and then you will run into HC maloriak or Halfus and realize how wrong you are.

Chaosfate
06-01-2011, 11:42 PM
@Booi
Ops..my bad .....didn't see it clearly...
Since i stopped playing wow when WOTLK released (just coming back recently), most of my wow mechanic's knowledges still based on TBC..

@klausi
My point is ..if you could kill those whelps without thunderstruck, then i will rather get other talents to improve my single target threat/dps, because thunderstruck is only useful on rare occasions for raiding. (unless you have no interest in dps and both of your talents are used for tanking)

@feralminded
I am on a group that downed 10m Sinestra before 4.1 patch, and no... i have no problem tanking maloriak/halfus adds without thunderstruck. Thats why i need fellow warriors who could actually prove that i am wrong for not getting thunderstruck :P

Loganisis
06-02-2011, 12:12 AM
You might think you don't need thunderstruck ... and then you will run into HC maloriak or Halfus and realize how wrong you are.

That's about where I am... I'm basically add-tanking when I tank hardmodes and I'm thinking of dropping cruelty instead of revenge since revenge does give you a little extra add threat... Don't like the idea of giving up incite, especially since I'm in a DW spec (we have a DK HB kite the magmaw maggots)

Finkum
06-02-2011, 01:05 AM
Remember that Thunderstruck boosts your single-target DPS/TPS too, assuming you use Thunderclap to keep Rend rolling on a single target.

Additionally it used to be the case, although I'm not sure if it is still true since the changes to War Academy, that subbing in a Shockwave like so - SS -> Dev/Rev -> Dev/Rev -> SW - was a single-target DPS boost (if SS didn't proc). If this is still true, then Thunderstruck will again provide a small single-target DPS boost.

Finally, the ease with which you can pick up and hold threat on fresh adds depends in no small part on the number of Misdirects available (and the skill of those providing them), on the size of your Vengeance stack, and also on how trigger happy your DPS are.

While you may not have problems keeping threat on adds, tanks with few or no Misdirects, or tanks in groups with e.g. arms warriors who enjoy popping Recklessness/SS/Bladestorm the second the whelps get MC on Halfus, may prefer the extra threat cushion Thunderstruck provides.

Tengenstein
06-02-2011, 01:15 AM
@Booi
i have no problem tanking maloriak/halfus adds without thunderstruck. Thats why i need fellow warriors who could actually prove that i am wrong for not getting thunderstruck :P


Then you don't need it. However you could just do the math on a log of the those fights, to see if it's better. If you can get away without it, cool, however there aren't that many non situational talents in you can take in a DW build with 6 points -

Incite - Very powerful Single target Threat, no AoE
Cruelty - powerful single target threat
Gag Order - great for interupting trash, slight increase in single target increase
Imp.Revenge - Great for rage saving, good Multiple target threat
Thunderstruck - Better multiple target threat
Safeguard - excellet external CD

I generally consider Incite the best single target talent, and Thunderstruck the best multiple target talent and default back to Imp.Revenge if i don't need safeguard for a fight since i'm a little heavy on the heroic strike usage and found it to help smooth out my rotation on single target and helps on AoE. which is why i would much prefer Klausi's original math to be right. Alas Revenge i will still love you.

Loganisis
06-02-2011, 09:00 AM
Additionally it used to be the case, although I'm not sure if it is still true since the changes to War Academy, that subbing in a Shockwave like so - SS -> Dev/Rev -> Dev/Rev -> SW - was a single-target DPS boost (if SS didn't proc). If this is still true, then Thunderstruck will again provide a small single-target DPS boost.

SW > Dev/Rev in apples to apples threat at full vengence. That hasn't changed, even without thunderstruck. The twist is fishing for SnB procs and delaying SW until the GCD right before SS comes up normal (assuming no SnB proc) is a TPS increase, if you can weave it that well.


While you may not have problems keeping threat on adds, tanks with few or no Misdirects, or tanks in groups with e.g. arms warriors who enjoy popping Recklessness/SS/Bladestorm the second the whelps get MC on Halfus, may prefer the extra threat cushion Thunderstruck provides.

The problem here is it's going to take at least 18 seconds to go to full power... though I guess if you have enough rage pots you might be able to pre TC...

feralminded
06-02-2011, 09:34 AM
@feralminded
I am on a group that downed 10m Sinestra before 4.1 patch, and no... i have no problem tanking maloriak/halfus adds without thunderstruck. Thats why i need fellow warriors who could actually prove that i am wrong for not getting thunderstruck :P

Well then you don't need it, but don't deny that it's not useful. I have a group with 2 mages and a boomkinn, all of whom can rip threat off me at will no matter what I do ... therefore I do my absolute best to maximize my AoE threat to enable them to do as much DPS as they can. It's not like it's possible for me to generate more AoE threat through skill ... skill has very little to do with it. Therefore the only choice is "Do I enable my AoE'ers to do more DPS, thus making the fight easier ... or do I not and take some situational talent that is less useful in this circumstance?"

Seems like a simple choice to me. I'm not sure where "proving you wrong" comes into play but when the choice is "take some useful talents that enable the DPS to DPS more" ... what's to prove? I'll give you some more benefit of the doubt here but this is starting to head into the direction of "I wanna talk about my epeen". Please support your argument and explain what better talents there are to take on add fights like HC Maloriak or Halfus? Perhaps I'm missing something.

Crittable
06-02-2011, 09:58 AM
So my question is,in a high end raid situation,if you have only 31/33 talents point to spend with,what makes you choose thunderstuck over incite/improved revenege or others talents ?

This was your original question and people have been answering it. They have given their reasons as to what makes them choose thunderstruck over incite, improved revenge or other talents.

If you feel that you can do what you need to do with no problems without the talent, feel free to spec away from it and tell all the other tanks who call you out on it to bug off. If I can do my job, then I don't care who says what, only that I do that job well. On my resto shaman, before the change to misses on interrupts, I would take elemental precision no matter how many shamans said that it was stupid. I liked the mana I got back from telluric currents, the 100% chance to hit with interrupts, and the 100% chance to hit with hexes/binds. I didn't care what they thought, I liked that spec. When they changed the chance to hit with interrupts to never missing, I switched out of that spec and went with something else that I thought was useful.

Short version... if you can do what you need to do without the talent, then do it. The people here have already given their reasons why they spec into that talent and you have your reasons not to.