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truculent
05-27-2011, 08:42 AM
Does anyone know if Blizzard has made any adjustments recently? I remember that the initial design was intended to be the stat they "tweak" when facing threat problems....Does anyone know if they turned it down for warriors?

I've noticed more and more people talking about warrior threat now... just got me wondering

Tengenstein
05-27-2011, 08:48 AM
I haven't seen anything, and for what anecdotal evidence is worth i'm not feeling anything either.

I don't think they'de tweek it just for one class, i see it more of a all tanks need more threat for this tier since the DPS have scaled up to the point of x

Takethecake
05-27-2011, 10:03 AM
I know threat for me has gotten more difficult in the last month or so, but mainly I feel it's due to gear as a whole in the raid increasing... a string of dodges/parries (be it my attacks getting dodged or me dodging attacks) really hurts my initial threat more than it used to. But then again I'm only talking about initial threat... sometimes it can be close for as long as the first minute of the fight now because vengeance can take so long to stack if you get a long string of avoidance.

Gnoo
05-29-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm not aware of any recent changes to the vengeance. I rather dislike the vengeance mechanic the way it works right now, at least for threat.

While I love the big numbers once the buff is stacked up, the beginning of some fights are starting to become rather stressful. We've been farming 5 hardmodes for a while now, so our damage dealers now generate significantly more threat than at the beginning of cata, while my threat output hasn't increased by a whole lot. One of the main problems I see with vengeance is that avoiding hits now doesn't just rage starve a warrior, it also keeps vengeance from stacking up.
Another thing is that vengeance only scales with max hit points, which really doesn't come into effect until it has already stacked up. At that point threat is usually not an issue anymore, which means that normal gear progression for the most part only improves tank dps after a while.

Now hit and expertise caps have been discussed a lot and most people think that gearing for the first 30 seconds of a fight is really not a good idea. DKs and bears have at least some mitigation incentive to gear towards threat stats, while warrios and I think paladins do not. On fights with tank rotations we now usually just let a DK or a bear begin...

While it's not a huge problem, I'd love to see some adjustments here. Maybe a skill that temporarily increases vengeance by 5% that could be activated at the beginning of a fight.

truculent
05-29-2011, 01:57 PM
I think it is in fact a huge problem. More and more people are talking about or are experiencing the same problem. Has anyone heard of blizzard making any comments about this issue?

Tengenstein
05-30-2011, 02:58 AM
I think that's a little bit of an over reaction. Most of the threat issue threads end up being a case of Spec deep wounds, weave in concussion blow becuase it has a huge hidden threat modifyer. job done.

Our initial Threat is weak, But i don't pop recklessness, retaliation nor a golemblood on the pull, i'm still chugging armour pots and i'm holding aggro. and i'm by no means a particualrily good at playing a warrior.

Gnoo
05-30-2011, 07:25 AM
Our initial Threat is weak, But i don't pop recklessness, retaliation nor a golemblood on the pull, i'm still chugging armour pots and i'm holding aggro. and i'm by no means a particualrily good at playing a warrior.

Problems with initial threat don't have to result in someone else pulling aggro. In fact, even when the threat generation of the tank is really bad, good damage dealers most likely won't pull aggro, because they know how to hold back.
This makes it a little difficult to find out just how much you're actually lacking. A good way to find that out is to ask your damage dealers. If they're holding back heavily during encounters with difficult enrage timers, then abilities like recklessness or retaliation might be worth considering.
On other fights it doesn't hurt to begin the fight slowly. For example on Maloriak heroic, we usually have to stop dps towards the end of the fight, to not push him into the last phase before killing all adds. Since boss aggro is only an issue for the first 15 or so seconds of the fight, we just start the fight a littler more slowly.

truculent
05-30-2011, 08:14 AM
Ive been running a test on hit. The results were interesting.


on test dummies, I ran a total of 30 trials with the exact same rotation and a total of 8 gcds on each trial. I proformed 3 sets of 10 with different hit rating, 1.42, 1.86, and 2.01%


expertise remained steady at 17.

the results were as follows:

1.42% : 7/10 <3000dps

1.86% : 3/10 < 3000dps (4/7 remaining above 4100dps)

2.01% : 3/10 < 3500dps 7/10 >4200dps ( 4/7 above 4900dps)

It appears that that a string of miss/dodged/parry'd gcds results in a huge loss, however, I have been running most raids with under 1.5% . Its only recently im seeing this problem.


I should also note that while I was running this test, I had applied to several guilds. One, a very hardcore group denied me for having hit jems socketed dispite the fact I explained to them what I was doing. So its safe to say that a warrior striving for extra hit to make up the difference is not going to be widle accepted. ( and rightfully so because its silly that we should have to gear for the first 30 seconds - 1 minute of a fight or tank switch. )

just seems like dispite dps are more geared now, these numbers are quite different from early cata.

Tengenstein
05-30-2011, 08:55 AM
Problems with initial threat don't have to result in someone else pulling aggro. In fact, even when the threat generation of the tank is really bad, good damage dealers most likely won't pull aggro, because they know how to hold back.
This makes it a little difficult to find out just how much you're actually lacking. A good way to find that out is to ask your damage dealers. If they're holding back heavily during encounters with difficult enrage timers, then abilities like recklessness or retaliation might be worth considering.
On other fights it doesn't hurt to begin the fight slowly. For example on Maloriak heroic, we usually have to stop dps towards the end of the fight, to not push him into the last phase before killing all adds. Since boss aggro is only an issue for the first 15 or so seconds of the fight, we just start the fight a littler more slowly.

My point was that warriors are fine, not that i'm having aggro issues or that i'm not having aggro issues becuase my DPS know how to play.

I'm no Prot warrior god, and i can hold aggro, i don't outgear my dops, my dps do get ranked on WoL and generally don't ahve to use soulshatter, or fade, I don't have the luxury of tricks or MD, and nor do i go max threat on the pull with Consumables and stance dancing CDs. I run with 1 expertise and <1% hit. I can still hold aggro. the vast majority of Warrior aggro issue threads are becuase the warrior in question either isn't playing optimally (not using concussion blow?) or specced optimally(sipped deep wounds), and i don't feel Vengenace needs to be tweaked to the point that you can play badly with bad specs and not have problems.

DPS are more geared than they where at the beginning of cata. So are we.

truculent
05-30-2011, 09:02 AM
My point was that warriors are fine, not that i'm having aggro issues or that i'm not having aggro issues becuase my DPS know how to play.

I'm no Prot warrior god, and i can hold aggro, i don't outgear my dops, my dps do get ranked on WoL and generally don't ahve to use soulshatter, or fade, I don't have the luxury of tricks or MD, and nor do i go max threat on the pull with Consumables and stance dancing CDs. I run with 1 expertise and <1% hit. I can still hold aggro. the vast majority of Warrior aggro issue threads are becuase the warrior in question either isn't playing optimally (not using concussion blow?) or specced optimally(sipped deep wounds), and i don't feel Vengenace needs to be tweaked to the point that you can play badly with bad specs and not have problems.

DPS are more geared than they where at the beginning of cata. So are we.


I dono.. i cant immagine how ranking dps could get away with not having to use aggro reducing abilities. its a really simple concept. string of crits by [incert ranking dps here] vs string of tanks dodged/missd/parried attacks = dps has aggro.

klausi
05-30-2011, 09:07 AM
Problems with initial threat don't have to result in someone else pulling aggro. In fact, even when the threat generation of the tank is really bad, good damage dealers most likely won't pull aggro, because they know how to hold back.
We want our dps to have that "killer instinct" required to rank on top at Word of Logs thus considerable shorten the fights and only at the cost of my nerves. And we only see problems while i'm tanking on my warrior. I don't have the same issues with my paladin or druid or while any DK does the initial tanking.

Just imagine a NASCAR race with you having to wait for half a round until you even can start your engine because the leader is using a subpar machine and you want a fair (threat) race.


and rightfully so because its silly that we should have to gear for the first 30 seconds - 1 minute of a fight or tank switch.
Regarding tank switches: the other tank will have to stop for some seconds if
a) you can't use any aggro reducing abilities on them (hand of salvation/intervene)
b) they can't/won't remove their +aggro modifier. Eg bear switching to kitty and hitting cower right afterwards, warrior swapping to a dps stance and paladin uses a cancelaura macro for his righteuos fury. Your DK might be complaining due to the removal of all this runic power from swapping presences.
In any way, they'll have to play carefully due to how vengeance work.

Regarding upping hit rating:
Upping expertise looks twice as attractive.

Another problem with aggro issues for rage based classes tanking in particular: the less you get hit the less incoming rage you'll have (talents provides rage on block/dodge will counter this to a certain amount).


just seems like dispite dps are more geared now, these numbers are quite different from early cata.
It's not only the easier access to better loot but a lot of class changes has happened in the last months. Just have a look at arcane mages (lol!) or frost dk's, whose are now literally being able to use their favored abilities every single time instead of using subpar strikes to cover the frost rune downtimes.

Tengenstein
05-30-2011, 08:16 PM
I dono.. i cant immagine how ranking dps could get away with not having to use aggro reducing abilities. its a really simple concept. string of crits by [incert ranking dps here] vs string of tanks dodged/missd/parried attacks = dps has aggro.

As long as my dps over a given period is equal to 31% of my DPSer's number over a given period they can't pull aggro. Less if the DPS are outside melee range. Looking at my logs I do around 8k DPS more on or less depending on the fight With substantial variation), which works out to be around 24kTPS which means DPS in melee range won't pull aggro until they exceed 26.4kDPS and outside melee need to be pulling 31.2kDPS

Now, my Guilds only just starting on HCs so while a heroicly geared DPS could probably pull aggro off me easily my ranged are not pulling quite pulling 31kdps, not in their 359s, not without some encounter based Damage modifier. You only need to be pulling 25k on V&T to get ranked as and Aff Lock, or 23k as a Fury warrior. Yes a string of crits will eat into your threat lead, as will a string of boss avoidance, but you call those things out on vent as a tank, and as a DPS you adjust Omens warning to suit your playstyle.

Do we really want threat to be such a non issue that we can just run our fingers back and forth on the keyboard and hold it?

Klausi is on to something about Rage though. It needs to be better normalized, pretty much to the point that gear is not in equation. or we need something like deadly calm

klausi
05-31-2011, 04:57 AM
Looking at my logs I do around 8k DPS more on or less depending on the fight With substantial variation), which works out to be around 24kTPS which means DPS in melee range won't pull aggro until they exceed 26.4kDPS and outside melee need to be pulling 31.2kDPS
While talking about your personal dps did you only look at your first (half) minute of fighting or your average dps over the entire course? The problem: Quite regulary your dps will pop their large cooldowns during the 30 seconds to line them up with prepots while your averaged dps over the entire fight might consist of 1 minute at 0% vengeance versus 7 minutes of 100% vengeance - a tad exaggerating to make my point :)

Looking at the first 50s of a tank&spank fight like Valiona heroic our melees peak to 55k (ret pally with prepot, several landslide and a trinket procc, wings, zealotry, guardian) and 50k respectively (fury warrior with prepot, even more landslide proccs, 2x inner rage, recklessness and of course deathwish) - i'm just lucky to not miss any shieldslam so i can even find some seconds to shatter during a breath and having a marksmanship hunter assisting me with a misdirect (love their almost guaranteed critchance above 80%) clearly helps as well.


or we need something like deadly calm
I'd prefer a 100% attack connect chance during Shieldblock - maybe linked to Heavy Repercussions while moving Spell Block (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=97954) to another ability (maybe Spell Reflect but upping the cooldown while specced into Shield Mastery up to 35s to balance everything out!?).

feralminded
05-31-2011, 12:55 PM
There's not many fights where you really have to worry about it and those fights golemblood pots do the trick. Seriously this is a majorly overblown issue because beyond 30 seconds it's a non-issue. Pot+Shield Block+Charge+Regular rotation is more than enough to keep you ahead on any boss that hits you sufficiently hard (HCs). I admit I personally have threat problems when I dress up in my fury gear and I sometimes have problems with my retadin when I'm prot ... but for the most part it's a serious non-issue.

truculent
05-31-2011, 01:04 PM
There's not many fights where you really have to worry about it and those fights golemblood pots do the trick. Seriously this is a majorly overblown issue because beyond 30 seconds it's a non-issue. Pot+Shield Block+Charge+Regular rotation is more than enough to keep you ahead on any boss that hits you sufficiently hard (HCs). I admit I personally have threat problems when I dress up in my fury gear and I sometimes have problems with my retadin when I'm prot ... but for the most part it's a serious non-issue.



Did you read the post I made here about the test I ran on hit?



As long as my dps over a given period is equal to 31% of my DPSer's number over a given period they can't pull aggro. Less if the DPS are outside melee range. Looking at my logs I do around 8k DPS more on or less depending on the fight With substantial variation), which works out to be around 24kTPS which means DPS in melee range won't pull aggro until they exceed 26.4kDPS and outside melee need to be pulling 31.2kDPS

also, did yo read the post I made on hit?

I dono how your pulling 8k in the first minute without being fully hit/expo caped... you defy the laws of chance.

feralminded
05-31-2011, 01:33 PM
Did you read the post I made here about the test I ran on hit? I did. What, precisely, was I supposed to garner from it? Your sample sizes were too small to account for much here I'm afraid. Honestly when I charge a boss with full raid buffs and shield block up after downing a golemblood potion I have all the faith in the world that they're not taking aggro. Oh yeah forgot I also usually blow inner rage because I'll have the rage for it. A bad string of parries and dodges can ruin my day ever so slightly but it's usually nothing I care too much about. My rotation is basically HS spam + SS/Rev/Dev ... same as it's been for a long time. I don't usually play with Rend/TC or Demo until I get a comfortable lead on threat.

And of course once you have a comfortable lead on threat ... well ... no one cares anymore. This is totally a non-issue at this point in the expansion. It *may* become one at some point but man I just don't see it. I routinely *float* in the 40k+ TPS range on the hard hitting bosses and at that point ... no DPS has a chance. I suppose if avoidance gets so good that vengeance starts to fall off for whatever reason but again the lead is so ridiculous it just doesn't seem likely at this point. Perhaps if by the end DPS are all doing 50k we will have a challenge on our hands ... but yeah ... just not seeing it.

Darksend
05-31-2011, 01:40 PM
I did. What, precisely, was I supposed to garner from it? Your sample sizes were too small to account for much here I'm afraid.

exactly




a total of 8 gcds on each trial

This is all I had to read to know that I did not need to read the results of your tests. For one, you are lacking raid buffs which make a huge difference on DPS. And two, people who normally run these tests usually run multiple tests over thousands of GCDs at 100s of different levels of hit and expertise.

feralminded
05-31-2011, 01:45 PM
Yeah and you cannot ignore the incoming rage, specially with shield block up and Shield specialization. Every swing from a boss like Cho'gal gives you 60 more rage or something obnoxious when you block every hit.

truculent
05-31-2011, 01:55 PM
I did. What, precisely, was I supposed to garner from it? Your sample sizes were too small to account for much here I'm afraid. Honestly when I charge a boss with full raid buffs and shield block up after downing a golemblood potion I have all the faith in the world that they're not taking aggro. Oh yeah forgot I also usually blow inner rage because I'll have the rage for it. A bad string of parries and dodges can ruin my day ever so slightly but it's usually nothing I care too much about. My rotation is basically HS spam + SS/Rev/Dev ... same as it's been for a long time. I don't usually play with Rend/TC or Demo until I get a comfortable lead on threat.

And of course once you have a comfortable lead on threat ... well ... no one cares anymore. This is totally a non-issue at this point in the expansion. It *may* become one at some point but man I just don't see it. I routinely *float* in the 40k+ TPS range on the hard hitting bosses and at that point ... no DPS has a chance. I suppose if avoidance gets so good that vengeance starts to fall off for whatever reason but again the lead is so ridiculous it just doesn't seem likely at this point. Perhaps if by the end DPS are all doing 50k we will have a challenge on our hands ... but yeah ... just not seeing it.

Im just not experiencing what your experiencing, and Im not the only one. Clearly, it is an issue. I think your just being dismissive. It is very clear that aggro mid fight is not an issue, and has never been refered to as such. I dont know why you keep bringing that up. Im not sure if your dps are backing off at the start more then others, but at the very lest, the test I did would count as evidence, as does the increasing number of people on this forum and others experiencing the same thing. its not a matter or what your rotation is, or if/when you weaving in tc and demo shout. If you get a string of dodged/parryd/missed gcds while also dodging/parrying the bosses melee attacks... and at the same time, one of your dps finds a string of crits... your going to loose aggro. If you havnt seen that happen, either you ego is having a memory lapse or you defy the laws of chance.

I will continue the test and get back to you.

truculent
05-31-2011, 02:01 PM
exactly



This is all I had to read to know that I did not need to read the results of your tests. For one, you are lacking raid buffs which make a huge difference on DPS. And two, people who normally run these tests usually run multiple tests over thousands of GCDs at 100s of different levels of hit and expertise.


I will continue testing. I dont understand the need for testing thousands of gcds since most people wont pull a raid boss in any tier of content anywhere close to 1000 times and even in the few tests ive run, the damage done per ability was often redundent but if thats what is required I will do so. more data to follow.

Darksend
05-31-2011, 02:06 PM
Im just not experiencing what your experiencing, and Im not the only one. Clearly, it is an issue. I think your just being dismissive. It is very clear that aggro mid fight is not an issue, and has never been refered to as such. I dont know why you keep bringing that up. Im not sure if your dps are backing off at the start more then others, but at the very lest, the test I did would count as evidence, as does the increasing number of people on this forum and others experiencing the same thing. its not a matter or what your rotation is, or if/when you weaving in tc and demo shout. If you get a string of dodged/parryd/missed gcds while also dodging/parrying the bosses melee attacks... and at the same time, one of your dps finds a string of crits... your going to loose aggro. If you havnt seen that happen, either you ego is having a memory lapse or you defy the laws of chance.

I will continue the test and get back to you.

That is what taunt is for, but for arguments sake, next time you do your tests, use a Str potion before you charge the dummy and see how much that effects your results, or try using hit/expertise food or hit/expertise elixirs instead of a flask.

Honestly the only fight I lose threat on ever is sinestra, because in phase 1 she hits like a wet noodle and your vengeance rarely ever stacks passed 50%. Granted I am a druid and my pull consists of FFF, demo shout, mangle, berserk.

I do agree that, especially in light of them extending the duration of berserk on the PTR (which is absolutely mind boggling and I cannot see how they are justifying doing that), that warriors need something like the old shield block used to give. Paladins can wings, druids have berserk, do dks have anything? if not they need something too.

But there are so many things target dummies cannot model especially in a raid environment.

truculent
05-31-2011, 02:11 PM
Also, Is there a more efficent way of recording reslts from recount then by pencil, Darksend?

Darksend
05-31-2011, 02:12 PM
I will continue testing. I dont understand the need for testing thousands of gcds since most people wont pull a raid boss in any tier of content anywhere close to 1000 times and even in the few tests ive run, the damage done per ability was often redundent but if thats what is required I will do so. more data to follow.


because no true random number sequence can be truly random without the same number repeating itself multiple times. by your logic, if I ran 10 tests of 8 abilities, and all 80 abilities were dodged/parried/ or missed, then I just gave conclusive proof that unless you are 100% hit and expertise capped you will never be able to hold agro on anything ever.

Even if you are trying to simulate the first 30 seconds or whatever of a boss fight and no more, without a boss actually hitting you you have no real way of knowing. The first 10 attempts on a boss the boss can dodge and parry every single one of your attacks but one, but if you dodged and parried none of the bosses attacks, and that one attack is a shield slam with full vengeance stacks while tricks is on you and you pre-potted with a strength pot, it could be enough to hold agro for a few extra seconds.

klausi
05-31-2011, 05:18 PM
That is what taunt is for
The very second you finally react and taunt the boss might either just critted the poor soul or it's a slow hitter like Chimaeron, your rage granting ability is on cooldown and luckily enough you'll avoid the next attack leaving you with a total amount of at least 10ish seconds without any incoming rage.. yay!


Honestly the only fight I lose threat on ever is sinestra, because in phase 1 she hits like a wet noodle and your vengeance rarely ever stacks passed 50%.
On Sinestra i just taunt off my brave arcane mage who pass 130% of my aggro rather quickly with Arcane Blast spam at global cooldown thanks to heroism at the start. No worries here because ranged can't pull aggro (original Ragnaros esque mechanic).


I do agree that, especially in light of them extending the duration of berserk on the PTR (which is absolutely mind boggling and I cannot see how they are justifying doing that), that warriors need something like the old shield block used to give. Paladins can wings, druids have berserk, do dks have anything? if not they need something too.
We can use both recklessnes and retalation with 4.2 w/o stancedancing. DK's runic power generation takes way to long to use DRW (60 rp!) at a pull but actually they don't even need it because their %attackpower modifier are just that bad and their unmodified base damage is pretty high to compensate for this. That's why DK's are far behind on damage done, they don't benefit as much from vengeance as we do. And that's (+runestrike with 100% connect chance) why they are pretty solid at building aggro w/o an offensive cooldown.

Tengenstein
06-01-2011, 01:58 AM
Funny you say that, I made the suggestion to compensate Revenge's terrible AP scaling that it should be innate expertise capped.

Booi
06-01-2011, 04:38 AM
Funny you say that, I made the suggestion to compensate Revenge's terrible AP scaling that it should be innate expertise capped.

I'm not a fan of this solution since it devalues hit and expertise for tanks even more. Not that revenge doesn't need a fix though :)

feralminded
06-01-2011, 05:07 AM
Im just not experiencing what your experiencing, and Im not the only one. Clearly, it is an issue. I think your just being dismissive. It is very clear that aggro mid fight is not an issue, and has never been refered to as such. I dont know why you keep bringing that up. Im not sure if your dps are backing off at the start more then others, but at the very lest, the test I did would count as evidence, as does the increasing number of people on this forum and others experiencing the same thing. its not a matter or what your rotation is, or if/when you weaving in tc and demo shout. If you get a string of dodged/parryd/missed gcds while also dodging/parrying the bosses melee attacks... and at the same time, one of your dps finds a string of crits... your going to loose aggro. If you havnt seen that happen, either you ego is having a memory lapse or you defy the laws of chance.

I will continue the test and get back to you.

It is not my intention to be dismissive, even if it is coming across as such. No doubt this HAS happened to me too ... but I don't consider it an issue. I have never *lost* a dps to aggro ... if or when I have lost it to a bad string of misses I've always taunted right back and it's been a non-issue. I guess I've been tanking since the days of when you actually had to fight for threat so I really don't mind having to actually fight a little for threat. If you truly want it to be a non-issue then taunt should just apply a debuff that forces the boss to attack you until you die ... I mean once vengeance stacks you can almost auto-attack your way to said thing anyhow.

So while yes I acknowledge the possibility that aggro can be lost if you either don't use your abilities right or get some bad luck or some combination of them both ... no I don't consider it a bad thing. Threat, imho, is waaaaaay to simple right now to the point that tanking is a fool's game. The hardest part about tanking this expansion is efficiently picking up and managing adds ... which while indeed can be harrowing in some cases ... is still pretty lame. If I didn't have to worry about threat during low-vengeance periods I wouldn't have much at all to worry about most fights.

Tengenstein
06-01-2011, 05:04 PM
I'm not a fan of this solution since it devalues hit and expertise for tanks even more. Not that revenge doesn't need a fix though :)


Very true, though its not as if it could really be davalued much further anyway. I did also make the suggestion that if Revenge can't jump to an secondary target, it hits the primary target a second time. this making it no different on AOE or for warriors who don't take the talent and not significantly affecting anything outsdie of prot warrior single target damage.

Truculent, can you link us a recentlog of you tanking V&T, i'm kinda puzzled at the threat issue.