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Dalibor
05-15-2011, 09:55 PM
I have been reading all the posts and made some changes with my gear. I would appreceate some feedback on my choices for gems, enchants, etc..

Armory link http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hellscream/dalibor/simple

Thanks!

Tengenstein
05-15-2011, 10:21 PM
Spec and Glyphs look fine. You've reforged to hit on your Hands which seems odd, I'd get some sort of run speed Enchant on your Boots. and DMC: Earthquake is a mediocre trinket at best.

Loganisis
05-15-2011, 11:55 PM
Gemming: Whatever you're going to do, my recommendation is be consistent. Until you start hard modes, which you're a way from, I would strongly suggest you follow the following gemming philosphy:
Yellow = 40 mastery
Prismatic = 40 mastery
DPS Socket Bonus = 40 mastery
Blue = 20 mastery / 30 stam
red = 20 mastery /20 parry

Reforging: You're over 2000 mastery rating, so you're going to start seeing some really good interpaly between parry and block (according to everything Koji has posted), so reforge the dodge on dodge/mastery gear to parry to maximize the effect of HtL.

Reforge into parry over dodge.

The bow is hit/exp and you reforged expertise - reforge the hit instead. Expertise is 2x as good per rating as a threat stat until you ahve 26 expertise (because ~120 expertise removes 1% dodge and 1% parry from the boss while 120 hit only removes 1% miss from the boss)

Ditto the glove reforging. Undo it... parry would be better probably.

***

Glyphs - Rapid charge isn't really all that good. I'd suggest the TC range (glyph of Thunder Clap? NOT Resonating power, that's a bad glyph).

***

Overall though, you shouldn't be squishy for the content you're running. If you are, I'm guessing it has as much to do with CD usage than gear (or more). Do you know when the damage is coming in fights so you know which CDs to use then?

Dalibor
05-16-2011, 05:03 AM
Thanks for your advice. My block was at 42% before so the healers were having a tough time keeping me up I hope my changes should smooth things out.

Insahnity
05-16-2011, 05:49 AM
I know that mastery is really good, and that warriors have a lot of rapid movement tools (charge, intercept, intervene), but runspeed is still better than most other enchants. There is a run speed/mastery which is quite pricey currently (requires maelstrom crystals), but the runspeed/30 stam is the cheapest enchant in the whole game at 2 dusts. losing 50 mastery for faster runspeed is worth it alone, but adding 30 stam on that makes it sweeter, and to have it so cheap should seal the deal. Keep getting them for every boot upgrade until you get 359's, then you go with Lavawalker (Runspeed/mastery).

If you are a paladin, then 50 mastery is an option, as they can spec into Pursuit of Justice.

The reason runspeed is better, is when you have to dodge constant things. Think Ozruk, moving out of groundslams or shatters, or dancing around the lava on the next dragon boss after. All the block in the world won't compare to the reduction in damage by moving out of the fire faster.

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 07:06 AM
oh yes, sorry i thought he had long charge, not rapid charge.

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 07:09 AM
Long charge is as meh as rapid charge. It's only good for openers really. After that you should be in place and since the tank is opening, he can get into charge range with or without the glyph. Seems like more of a PvP glyph. Better to pick glyphs that function throughout the fight, not just at the 0.0 GCD.

And everything Inshanity said! :D

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 07:35 AM
I like it for the same reason i like run speed enchants, being able to get to places quicker. Granted on some fights its meh but for most of the Fights with adds its pretty damn nice. Guess I'm making up for something but i like the extra length.

Though what are the alternative's?
Glyph of Intervene - use dependant, i'm bad at using intervene as aything but a "i want to be over there button"
Glyph of Piercing Howl - Good for kiting, though tends to make holding aggro hard as things stay out of range longer, not used in the typical tank and spank Spec
Glyph of shield wall - Can be good, or bad Depends how many time you need it in a fight.
Glyph of shockwave - good if you don't talent thunderstruck, meh if you do
Glyph of Spell Reflection - I really don't know, depends on the fight i suppose, don't really know many boss abilties that this works against. need a list to be compiled.
Glyph of sunder armour - Nice but still meh
Glyph of Thundercalp - loverly
Glyph of Victory Rush - meh good for magmaw adds, that's it.

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 07:49 AM
Shockwave >>> Long charge, with or without thunderstruck. Shockwave, at full vengence (so what, 20 seconds into the fight) becomes the 3rd hardest hitting option you have behind SS w/HR or alone, and Concussion Blow. I think people forget this. Of course, it's extra threat, so every 17s hitting isn't going to buy you much more than 20s, except maybe in AoE tanking situations (some adds, heroics). I would still go with it over Long Charge in a heartbeat.

An extra 5 yards on charge? Throw that down with VR and Sunder Armor. Nice in situational places, sometimes, maybe a few.

CLeave and Thunderclap are the 2 I don't really think about changing out. Then the last spot is SW or Shockwave imo. Unless it's to counter a fight specific mechanic, it's all pretty meh outside of those.

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 07:52 AM
Except that using SW on CD is a tps loss over weaving it into the 3rd GCD after a Shield Slam. oh and you should also be prioritising HT over SW.

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 07:59 AM
3rd CD? If Concussion Blow isn't up, what would you use in GCDs 1 and 2? 2 Devastates to try to proc S&B?

And anytime you hit anything besides SS when it's up it's a TPS loss. At most you'd sometimes use a 17s SW every 20s but you'd still be able to get more in.

It isn't spectacular, granted, for single-target, but hell, 17s shockwave for some trash pulls > anything else avaialble. And it's not like any of the other Majors are great for single target. Cleave? Useless. Pure AoE ability. Thunderclasp - great, but useless when single-target tanking since you're already within range.

Long charge is just, well, useless 99% of the time. You can already get within unglyphed charge range without pulling aggro so unless there's something midfight where you NEED a longer charge (and more often than you need Heroic Leap)... I'm sure someone can point to a very specific instance where it would be valuable - but outside of PvP I haven't seen a need for it.

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 08:23 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?69399-The-Prot-Warrior-QDTG&p=441818#post441818

Koji did the maths on it a long time ago now, and if you substitute your own figures you will see that you get the most TPS out of your CB/SW/HT if you wait to use until the 3rd CD after an SS. Using SW in the first GCD after an SS is on average a 350TPS loss over 20 seconds, whereas waiting for the 3rd GCD is a 480TPS gain for me at max vengeance. No matter what, you get the biggest avearge TPS gain from using your CB/SW/HT in the 3rd GCD. I had made a little section on Wartotem's sheet to calculate this, the bigger the difference between Dev and your Truck ability, the bigger the TPSgain of weaving.

and Granted GoSW pwns on AoE.

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 08:46 AM
I see what he's saying, the issue is the possibility of higher TPS versus known TPS loss. I guess it might a more philisophical question.

Depending on RNG, if you wait until the last GCD before SS is normally up then you zero SnB proc opportunities. If you are lucky with your SnB procs and they keep flowing, you would potentially delay SW forever and it's a TPS increase because SS Is just that awesome. However if your SnB procs are RNG unlucky, you're reducing the # of SWs, your clear #4 ability (between 2 versions of SS and CB).

So the choice is between a lower floor and a higher ceiling over any period of time (SW on 3rd GCD) and a higher floor and lower ceiling (SW after SS).

Additionally given that this only really matters for the first 30 seconds of the fight (usually) after which you have a signficant threat lead... I'm just not a gambler. I'm going to prioritize SW over SnB proc chances early on in the fight.

However, once you're into the fight, it does make sense to prioritize SnB proc chances over SW since the DPS gain should be equal to the TPS gain over a longer period of time, which will help shorten the fight.

I guess what I'm saying is I prefer higher floors than higher ceilings when I'm tanking because it gives me a higher level of guaranteed, which I like.

I understand the math behind saying SnB > SW is a TPS gain, I just don't agree with implimenting it during the period of time in a fight when threat is important. Over the larger period of the fight when you have a threat lead, then I can see it being more valuable since it should also result in higher DPS.

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 09:02 AM
In which case GoSW also only matters in the first 30 seconds of the fight, and since in the first 30 secs you aren't gonna get in an extra SW with or with out the glyph it devalues greatly.

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 09:48 AM
In which case GoSW also only matters in the first 30 seconds of the fight, and since in the first 30 secs you aren't gonna get in an extra SW with or with out the glyph it devalues greatly.

Very true. Point conceded. I'll still take it over long charge though ;-)

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 10:12 AM
optimal major glyphs Glyph of TC, Glyph of Cleave, Glyph of something you like.

I want glyph of Icecream

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 10:13 AM
optimal major glyphs Glyph of TC, Glyph of Cleave, Glyph of something you like.

I want glyph of Icecream

ditto to both XD

kopcap
05-16-2011, 11:48 AM
I don't understand where you guys are coming from, SW is an amazing ability and a glyph that makes it 15% more frequent is invaluable on almost every fight. Its a must.

Glyph of HT and Sunder armor are also very good glyphs, especially for fights where you deal with a small number of adds like Magmaw, Al Akir and Cho. HT is great on every fight you pull and also if for whatever reason you need to maintain Sunders from a distance.

Cleave glyph on the other hand is useless on most fights.

Loganisis
05-16-2011, 11:58 AM
Kop, the point Teng was pointing to that Koji made was that over a longer period of time, the additional SnB procs create more threat (damage) than using SW.

SS hits harder than SW. SS with HR active hits a good deal harder. In the 3 GCD space between SS's CD coming off naturally:
0.0 SS
1.5 ---
3.0 ---
4.5 ---
6.0 SS

Filling 1.5 and 3.0 with Devastate/Revenge to proc SnB to be able to hit SS again sooner is a net TPS/DPS increase over using SW at 1.5. Devastate at 4.5 doesn't buy you anything for SnB except the chance at free SS which is kinda irrelevent in most fights.

So, over time, the arguement, and I can see it (though Koji is the one that did the math) is if there's enough time for RNG to flatten out as you'd expect, addtional SS from SnB procs > SW usage outside the 4.5 GCD in that 6 second micro-rotation.

kopcap
05-16-2011, 12:14 PM
Ye, but so what, you still need to fill the 4th GCD with something better than a Dev. And fight mechanics are far from static single fights, in practice you need its burst, utility and range very frequently on most fights.

Tengenstein
05-16-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't think i need it that Frequently. The only fight where i can think i need to use it on CD for utility is Cho'gall. and then its on a 20 second CD not a 17. on AoE sure it's Great, but that's AoE and falls to the same logic that GoCleave does. On most boss fights you are in melee range of your target, I can't think which boss you need to tank at range. And if your lining up a burst you'd be saving shockwave, and of course if you wanted Maximal DPS you would STILL weave SW into the 4th GCD. since given our minimal baked in threat, Max TPS roation = Max DPS rotation too!

As for still having something to fill the fourth GCD I rarely find that CB, SW, HT are all on CD and i don't need to refresh either TC or Demo shout, or reapply a rend, But you can still use Dev or Rev to fill it, its just that proccing SNB only results in the next GCD having no rage cost.

Glyph of Heroic Throw saves you one GCD. Now if i didn't have the ability stack sunder quickly, like a fury or an arms warrior, then yes i can see the point, but as a prot warrior i don't even need to think about Sunder, if i'm on a target, it goes up. and as for Glyph of Sunder, Glyph of SW, TC and Cleave beat it in an AoE situation, its only really useful on fights where you're trying to kill two targets at once, in close proximity and most multi target fights its either full on AoE (Mal Green phase, Magmaw) or you keep the targets some distance apart (TAC, Nef) or you you're focusing down a single target (al'akir, ODS, Halfus)

kopcap
05-16-2011, 11:00 PM
Shockwave

- great due to adds: Magmaw OT, Maloriak, Nef, Halfus, Cho gall, Al Akir
- used very frequently due to being ranged and a lot of movement involved on Conclave (nature) and Council
- not particularly important but still very handy on Omni (slimes, stacked golems), Dragons (for a brief burst inside), glyphs not really needed here though
- on chim and artemedes its nothing special

HT not only saves gcd, its a small dps boost at the start. Its a lot more situational than SW, but still fantastic on Magmaw, Cho gall and Al Akir. And there is nothing better than it on many other fights anyway, ie Drakes, Council, etc. On ODS shields don't last forever.

Cleave is great on two fights - Halfus and Maloriak. Useless on the rest.