PDA

View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - Can Casuals Get Legendaries?



Lore
05-10-2011, 02:45 PM
6dfewrb-a38

Follow me on Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/devolore) or Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/devolore)!

Star Scythe
05-10-2011, 03:28 PM
actually with the warglaives it was possible to get a legendary by luck (at least on my server) the top guild had so many glaives that they were going to new applicants that had just joined the guild. but then again, a buddy of mine was in a different guild and even though he has been running BT almost every week since server 2nd Illidan kill... he still hasn't seen an offhand glaive. Huzzah for RNG!

Azuae
05-10-2011, 04:12 PM
RNG was huge for Thunderfury - although, like the warglaives, it required a guild to get. My guild completed 1 thunderfury (for me) in almost 2 years of clearing the bosses that dropped the parts. We had 4 of the right bindings off Garr, but only one left binding off Geddon. 3 bindings off Garr dropped and went to other people. I was there for the drop off Geddon, and then had to pray for a 4th binding off Garr (which happened 3 months later). We never did get any more bindings off Geddon.

Mordain
05-10-2011, 04:33 PM
Must say I completely agree with Lore here. The idea of a legendary (to me) is to reward an outstanding member of your guild for putting in a huge amount of effort to being the best at what they do.

People wanting things for nothing seems to be the way of the world these days, and it unfortunately doesn't work in any other form on the planet, so why should it work here?

Yes, casuals complain that they can't get it. But I think a lot of them just don't actually understand the effort it takes to raid, and then to actual complete a legendary quest-chain.

I think blizzard are making a good move this time though with the whole guild getting a companion pet out of it when the legendary is complete. Takes the sting out of it for the other eligible people who didn't get it.

Rennadrel
05-10-2011, 05:12 PM
Casuals don't deserve legendary weapons, hell they don't deserve purples. Suck it up and deal with your blues, if you aren't happy with what you have then work to earn it like we did in Burning Crusade.

Hell, even getting Thunderfury and Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros still take effort, if casuals want legendaries go farm Molten Core for 9 months and see if you can get a Binding and the Eye of Sulfuras, cause I tried and those things never dropped for me. Thoridal, the Stars Fury and the Warglaives of Azzinoth are not hard to get for level 85's now, so it's not like farming for them requires 25 man raids. The only ones that still take effort are Shadowmourne, Hammer of Valanyr and the new one will take effort, I don't see what the big deal is with casuals and wanting to be spoon fed every single piece of awesome loot in the game. Either they can work for it and get involved in a hardcore raiding guild, put in their time and earn their chance at a legendary, or they can shut up and stop playing.

Karoht
05-10-2011, 05:38 PM
Shadowmourne was probably one of the most accessible legendary weapons around. The player had quite a bit of control as to the rate of progression (acquiring primordial saronites, getting the empowerments completed, etc.), and for this reason I feel it was a well designed legendary quest line, though feel free to disagree.

Valanyr was highly iconic, very few people got them when Ulduar was current, and it only involved collecting a bunch of shards with an extremely low drop rate.

Dragonswrath very closely seems to follow the Shadowmourne model, and if I had a caster DPS, I would totally be going after it.

And casual guilds were able to get Shadowmourne. They just couldn't get it first, but it was still accessible while ICC was current content.
Casual guilds will eventually get Dragonswrath if they have the skill to down Ragnaros. They are just incredibly unlikely to do so in a decent time frame.

Reinette
05-10-2011, 05:52 PM
Exactly so. People are always quick to claim that they are being excluded from the opportunity to get a legendary. That's ridiculous. Everyone can get a legendary (well, unless they're elemental shamans). If a new legendary is released, and it fits for your class, you have the opportunity to get it. I keep hearing people say that legendaries are only for those "lucky" enough to be in a raid capable of acquiring them. What a load of crap. I've been raiding for 5 years and I've never seen someone who became a dedicated raider because they were lucky. They got there by being dedicated. Yes, luck can still determine whether or not you actually get the legendary, but not whether you are in a position to potentially get it in the first place (discounting examples like "I wasn't next in line for a warglaive, but the guy ahead of me was struck by lightning").

It is alright that some parts of the game are only for those who are dedicated. It's more than alright, it's desirable. If everyone can get everything, then there's no reason to be dedicated. If there's no reason to dedicate yourself, then the game dies. It's as simple as that. Legendaries have always been the shining example of this philosophy, but it applies to so many things. Frostbrood Vanquishers. Loremaster. Justicar. Mimiron's Head. Server Firsts. A little bit of luck plays into getting these, but a little bit of luck plays into getting everything. Whether your dedication is shown through raiding dilligence or a willingness to scour Uldum for weeks on end or slog through thousands of low level quests, it is dedication that earns these rewards.

To me, the definition of a casual player is one who does not show dedication in any area of the game. You can be dedicated to solo content and abhor raiding, PvP and even dungeons. If that's the case, there are still rewards you can get to show your dedication. But, if you're a casual player, you can't get these. That's fair. Hell, that's life.

Fetzie
05-10-2011, 05:54 PM
I might get some flak for this. And you know what, I don't care. Legendaries are a token for rewarding dedication. If you are not dedicated enough to do the content to get the item, you don't deserve it. Full Stop.

You can only SEE the Dragonwrath quest if you have cleared throne, BWD and BoT. This is by no means hard. This requires no large amount of skill or time. If you cannot do this, you have not earned the right to even start the quest. If you can't be bothered to go out and kill raid bosses in Firelands, you are not deserving enough. If you can't be bothered to go out and do the solo-content - likewise.

Legendaries are not normal items. This isn't getting the spirit ring off of omnotron (non-heroic) or the heroic tier chest from Halfus. This is an item that is only going to go to the most deserving member(s) of a raid. You can't expect to waltz into an instance and pick up a legendary item. it doesn't work that way. Getting legendary items is teamwork, friendship and bloody huge amount of work.

I have sulfuras. I got in during wrath. Was it hard? No, actually. The eye dropped and I won it. But I spent the next 4 weeks farming trash soft reset after soft reset, getting friends to help mine the dark iron ore, I must have run MC 30-40 times in that month, maybe more to get the blood of the mountain and the sulfuron ingots (12 golemagg kills in those 4 IDs). Because of this, I am proud that I can carry it. Not because farming level 60-63 trash mobs was particularly hard, but because I dedicated my free time in WoW to getting the materials and I am also so thankful of those 3-4 people in the guild that helped me clear those bosses quicker and farm that ore with no expectation of being recompensed. Without those friends I would have taken a lot longer to get the mace made.


(well, unless they're elemental shamans). Elemental Shamans cannot wield a staff?

SimonJaja
05-10-2011, 07:01 PM
I agree with Lore. Legendaries are supposed to feel epic and very rewarding, I think it should stay pretty much in their current state. As for the more laid back people, if they really want a legendary it is still possible to farm them when they're not current content, it may not feel as great but it still requires a lot of time an dedication and to me, still feels like you've accomplished something. As Pyrea previously stated, a legendary item is not so much farming hard content as it demands time and dedication, and if you're not willing to spend time working on those goodies, you probably don't actually really want to have them. I've personally been farming for both Sulfuras and Shadowmourne and I think that even if they're not current content and easier to get, they still feel amazing to build.

You can't whine because you can't get every piece of awesome the game has to offer, because if legendaries were easy to get, would they feel as rewarding? I don't think so

Toushiro
05-10-2011, 07:52 PM
Casuals don't deserve legendary weapons, hell they don't deserve purples. Suck it up and deal with your blues, if you aren't happy with what you have then work to earn it like we did in Burning Crusade.

Hell, even getting Thunderfury and Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros still take effort, if casuals want legendaries go farm Molten Core for 9 months and see if you can get a Binding and the Eye of Sulfuras, cause I tried and those things never dropped for me. Thoridal, the Stars Fury and the Warglaives of Azzinoth are not hard to get for level 85's now, so it's not like farming for them requires 25 man raids. The only ones that still take effort are Shadowmourne, Hammer of Valanyr and the new one will take effort, I don't see what the big deal is with casuals and wanting to be spoon fed every single piece of awesome loot in the game. Either they can work for it and get involved in a hardcore raiding guild, put in their time and earn their chance at a legendary, or they can shut up and stop playing.

stop talking like an arse Rennadrel, not all Casuals are so casual they don't raid, most casuals like me get in 6-8 hours a week and earn our purples.

Rawer
05-10-2011, 09:58 PM
What is a legendary ?
What is a casual ?

Can Lore answer this ?

Now you are saying along side with Blizzard that "casuals" can't get a legendary item, but is true that they made it easier and easier to get one over the time being that RNG got removed from the equation or barriers of entering were removed (40 man to 25 man to nowdays 10 man raiding) . Aren't those enough reasons to say legendaries are not what they used to be ? They can go to CASUAL RAIDERS now.
Why isn't the legendary legendary by only dropping from 25 man HC Ragnaros ?

The problem with the legendary to me is that you need a CAPABLE guild to back you up and more important a "loot council" to give you one. You could have bribed and I think you will be able to in Firelands too the GM/raid leader to get you the 2nd/3rd legendary quest items drops for 100k gold.

I could get the Quel'Delar, I got it ... I got the "the Insane" title, I got Loremaster, I got all Exalted reputations in the game, got tons of other items and achievements, I've downed Lich King.
Why can't I get a legendary item if I and only I put the effort into it ?

If you are going for Blizzard then you are always gonna be able to exclude some people: those that don't raid heroic content, don't PvP in rated BGs, don't quest in every zone, don't do dungeons in HC mode, don't have a guild, don't have a paladin etc ...

Nattravn
05-10-2011, 10:36 PM
Hey, I'm a "casual" I guess. I have a job that often require me to work nights and I have small children that sometimes wake up and needs to be comforted. I dont call myself casual though I call myself a dungoneer. Anyways, I agree I shouldnt be able to obtain certain raid-only items like the Frostbrood Vanquisher or a Legendary weapon. Those are for raiders and I'm fine with that. But what is up with some of theese comments? Because I have real life obligations I am not entitled to anything? No purples, no mounts, anything?

I think Blizz has done well recently with dungoneering rewards that, for me, feels like an accomplishement without in any way competing with the raid-content. Like the 353-purples from Zandalari, and the bear of course. Are there any reason you hardcore, superduper, living in your mother's basement raiders cant live with me getting rewards too, for my efforts?

I think one thing that could be interresting would be to make an epic quest chain that require you to kill many hc bosses as well as doing alot of travels in the world to complete a purple weapon that would have the same ilvl as the current raid tier. This wouldnt compete with raid content but for me as a dungoneer it would feel like an accomplishement.

Martie
05-10-2011, 11:24 PM
I think one thing that could be interresting would be to make an epic quest chain that require you to kill many hc bosses as well as doing alot of travels in the world to complete a purple weapon that would have the same ilvl as the current raid tier. This wouldnt compete with raid content but for me as a dungoneer it would feel like an accomplishement.
You almost exactly described the Quel'delar quest there.

Isimode
05-10-2011, 11:47 PM
Besides the RNG drop weapons, I don't see any real legendary.
But to add to the suggestion about something 'legendary' which is properly implemented to casuals: The Violet Drake (http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=2145). Though it might not be entirely 'epic', it is not a 'grind' per se. You were only asked to do a set of achievements over a set period of time multiple times in a row. The reward the violet drake currently has is adequate to the amount of effort put into it (drake + free 310% speed).
If they could take the violet drake idea (multiple sets of meta achievements to create another meta achievement) and build something epic to it, that might work as 'legendary'.
Also, Thunderfury(in lesser extent) and the black scarab mount had realm effort put into it, which should be part of a legendary imho.

Those points were my 2₵.

Crowpala
05-11-2011, 01:14 AM
Legendaries are as the name say, well legendary items that should not be something that you see everybody in the major cities in game run around with. Then it becomes not a legendary item, but just any other item.

Now let's look at the statement that you need to be in a dedicated group of people who put in a lot of effort into collecting this item. You have mentioned raids, but what about RBG or even in some sence arena teams. They often put in more effort (or just as much effort as a hard core raiding guild) into what they are doing. So on the idea that a dedicated group of people working together really hard on a goal, well why don't we see a legendary pvp item ?

I do belive that there is a place in the game for a casual legendary item, but the thing is how do you design the events around getting one ? You could say that when you are exalted with your guild and have done <insert whatever you want>, then a quest chain opens up. This quest line is so long that you have to put in the same amount of effort to it that a raiding guild would to obtain the legendary. It could be that you have to do a lot of heroics in a guild group (you would need 5 people from the guild) to set of a extra drop of some items that goes into obtaining the legendary and you had to go and do some solo quests in addition to the heroics. Maybe even throw in there a drop from some of the easier raid bosses you can kill as a casual player

As Lore also mentioned, in WotLK, you had a chance on getting a legendary by doing the 3 icc 5 man heroics, but I do agree that the RNG played a way to big part in who got it. You either had to be rich to buy one from the AH or you needed so much luck to see it drop in the instance and then more luck to win the roll for it. So I hope that Blizzard learned from this and don't implement more of this kind in the future.

Legendaries are not something that everybody in game should get ! Then the point of a legendary goes away

uglie
05-11-2011, 02:02 AM
Well I've seen some "casuals" say that they should be able to get legendaries thru quest lines since they can't or dont want to raid. Well the opposite of that is those raiders that only log on to raid and maybe a couple dailies for gold for repairs/flasks don't want to have to go do a long quest line for a legendary that before they would've gotten thru the course of normal raiding.
What EVERYONE needs to remember is that you reap what you sow. This goes for those that play for 1 hr a month to those that play 24/7 only sleeping when they pass out. If you don't put in the time and effort you won't and should get the same as those that put in more effort and time commitment.

Now if only Lore could address the issue of "it's too hard/ I want free purple pixels" and post it on the log in screen of wow.

Bigbad
05-11-2011, 02:10 AM
I like the way shadowmourn worked, nice questline collecting some souls and shards. Droprate on crystals for Val'anyr was a bit too low in my opinion. From what I've read the new legendary staff will require some money, effort (shards from firelands raid) and defender of shattered world title to start the quest. Specially the last requirement is nice, nothing too hard but requires you to be at least a half decent raider.

To be honest as long as the legendary doesn't require hardmodes its available for casuals. It just requires a decent raider and a bunch of effort which seems a good way to get a legendary.

Rowdy
05-11-2011, 07:08 AM
Whats the definition of a "casual" (that is not allowed to get a legendary)?

Bovinity
05-11-2011, 07:14 AM
Whats the definition of a "casual" (that is not allowed to get a legendary)?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. "Casual" isn't really a concrete term by any means, and I'm fairly confident that "casuals" by at least one definition or another have indeed been able to acquire legendaries along the way.

Fetzie
05-11-2011, 07:28 AM
As Lore also mentioned, in WotLK, you had a chance on getting a legendary by doing the 3 icc 5 man heroics, but I do agree that the RNG played a way to big part in who got it. You either had to be rich to buy one from the AH or you needed so much luck to see it drop in the instance and then more luck to win the roll for it. So I hope that Blizzard learned from this and don't implement more of this kind in the future.

Quel'delar was an epic weapon, not a legendary one. Legendaries have ALWAYS involved a lot of raiding. This is unlikely to change. And if you don't want to raid, you also decide to not get a legendary. "I can't raid" doesn't really cut it as an excuse for not getting a legendary when you can clear 12/12 normal modes with a bit of dedication in a single raid night in under 3 hours. The only legendary that has ever required a non-standard level boss kill is Val'anyr, which requires a 3 light Yogg kill instead of a 4 light, which is not particularly harder.


Whats the definition of a "casual" (that is not allowed to get a legendary)?

One that does not raid perhaps? So a raiding casual can get a legendary, but a non-raiding casual cannot. Which is more casual is something I am not going to comment on.

Ion
05-11-2011, 08:06 AM
Why isn't the legendary legendary by only dropping from 25 man HC Ragnaros ?

Because everyone knows that 25 mans are REAL raiding and 10 mans are all scrub casuals...

Rowdy
05-11-2011, 09:19 AM
One that does not raid perhaps? So a raiding casual can get a legendary, but a non-raiding casual cannot. Which is more casual is something I am not going to comment on. Well, you could make that distinction "whoever raids can get a legendary and whoever doesnīt can not". The problem is that there are many raiding people out there that definetly donīt "deserve" a legendary (I think basically everyone agrees on that).

I really have a hard time listening to/reading something that invovles the term "casual" as a description of a certain group of players. But if you donīt make clear/define what "casual" actually means for you, it it does not describe anything.

Rennadrel
05-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Well, you could make that distinction "whoever raids can get a legendary and whoever doesnīt can not". The problem is that there are many raiding people out there that definetly donīt "deserve" a legendary (I think basically everyone agrees on that).

I really have a hard time listening to/reading something that invovles the term "casual" as a description of a certain group of players. But if you donīt make clear/define what "casual" actually means for you, it it does not describe anything.

That's pretty much it, non raiders will complain about not getting legendary weapons, or players who are more into the PvP scene might complain, but that's their problem and their choice. If you don't want to raid or don't have the time, why should Blizzard give you what is earned through hard work and dedication among the raiding population?

I think it would be cool to get legendary weapons in PvP as a reward for being at the top in ratings with stats and an item level to match top end weapons from the next season, but it wouldn't hold the same epic value as getting one from a raid would be.

Kemanorel
05-11-2011, 05:03 PM
Legendary = Its orange, and the source of infinite drama. (recently saw dispute between a 70 pvp hunter twink and a heroic raiding 85 over Thor'idal, the 85 rolled 99 and the 70 rolled 96... ML gave to the 70 since he'd be using it, in theory)

Casual = many many definitions are used with this label, from bad to lazy and so on.

Casual –adjective
1.
happening by chance; fortuitous: a casual meeting.
2.
without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing: a casual remark.
3.
seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned: a casual, nonchalant air.

often as contrast to:

–adjective
1.
unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated: a hard-core segregationist.
2.
pruriently explicit; graphically depicted: hard-core pornography.
3.
being so without apparent change or remedy; chronic: hard-core inflation; hard-core unemployment.

RNG legendaries were like the lottery. Sometimes, the guy who bought one ticket in his life hit the mega jackpot, but statistics favor the regular lotto players.

On a server like my own, things like the soul collecting phase of the Shadowmourne questline went well with the "rep grind" PuG runs, but... I don't think most PuG groups formed from /2 with 85s of any item level can reliably do the infusions.

For that matter, barring lynch-able droprates, it did still take dedication to gather all of the Shadowfrost shards, given that in late wrath, the safest way to pug was Gold-DKP runs that on occasion had higher standards than the guild who hosted them.

In any case, experience in human nature shows that value is often derived from effort necessary to achieve, obtain or accomplish the goal, which is why progression kills can be so sweet, more so for the frustrating almost-hopeless fights than the, "So this is HEROIC gunship? I see..."

Of course not everyone sees it this way, just watch the political tug-of-war about education for instance.

One of my favorite quotes from fiction, "Nothing worthwhile is ever easy..."

In theory, loot distribution by quality would resemble a pyramid, with at the pinnacle, legendaries, in large part valuable due to scarcity, more common being "epic" which while more common or accessable, still limited, all the way down to the base of [Junk} (grey) which represents the large majority of items. If everyone has Heroic Super Ultra Awesome Legendary items in every slot, what makes them so special anymore?

Kojiyama
05-11-2011, 05:32 PM
Having got a Sulfuras through much effort in classic, in addition to helping with a few Thunderfuries, had a guildmate with many Atiesh shards (sadly not finished), Warglaives, and a Shadowmourne along the way for the guild, I have always viewed legendaries as mostly representative of the effort required to put them together. The Warglaives were the only exception to this, however it did take a rather large guild effort to regularly kill Illidan at the time (especially when Mother required a large guild contribution to farm SR gear) so I can still see the point there.

Either way, the idea for me has always been than legendaries are something that takes a bigger force than normal to gain--and often a concerted effort from the player's guild or friends to gain assistance with. Getting Sulfuras or Thunderfury's mats, for instance, was a large effort early in classic. I pretty much had to call on the guild to help out, which made it representative of everyone's efforts in addition to mine.

In that regard, I don't see 'casual' and legendaries going together too well--not because there is anything wrong with playing casually, but simply because playing as a casual typically reflects a lower amount of play time. Given the nature of legendaries, I'm not sure it's really practical for a casual to get them and for it to still mean the same thing.

I pretty much agree with Lore than really low random drops a pretty crap (I played Lineage II for some time, and their 0.007% drop-rates were probably the most depressing thing in an MMO ever) and that raiding is probably the best environment to get the 'feel' of legendaries right.

I don't think it really has anything to do with people not 'deserving' something--it's just an issue of putting yourself in the position where something exceptionally monumental is likely to happen to you. Playing in certain ways may make this very, very rare without undermining the exceptionally monumental part.

Fetzie
05-11-2011, 05:48 PM
It isn't about who deserves the legendary. It is about who EARNED it. And anyone who put the work in and earned the right to wield the weapon, yeah, they can have it.

Getting a legendary out of the current expansion is like being given an award, a badge to display to the world that you worked bloody hard and have the respect of your guild's raiding corps. Not that you felt entitled to get it, and got the item because you are so awesome and are totally not a "casual".

Khelendros
05-12-2011, 03:13 AM
Its certainly an interesting problem Lore. But I think one thing Blizzard could do is in addition to the item that normally gets one started on a legendary quest (Think Bindings of the Windseeker for example); once you have the items in question to begin the quest to "empower" the item you could have two alternate paths to obtaining. For the more hardcore raiders you have the usual methods. For the casual players you have a longer more time consuming grind based quest chain. Let me give an example:

So your running a new raid instance that has 4 new 5 man wings attached to it, and it relates to deathwing. So lets for the sake of argument call this Legendary "Deathwing's Jaw". So you are running this raid instance and you get a drop of "Fire forged metal jawbone". This item gives you the legendary quest. So you have a choice. You can do your typical raid related quest where you have to collect items from raid bosses and possibly craft something. You also have a choice to do a more time consuming but casual friendly path.

In this casual friendly path you have to have run Grim Batol a certain number of times in both normal and heroic completing all related achievements, you had to have completed all the new 5 man wings of the new area a certain amount of times on normal and heroic, you also need to have crafted some specific items that require some time and effort to acquire as well as some luck. You also need to have run a certain number of times the instances in Deepholme on both difficulties and getting all achievements. Only after you have completed all these achievements are you on the last step which is to go kill the final boss of the raid instance to imbue the item once and for all.

Ultimately I don't see how you can do legendary items without the person having to at least do a raid in some capacity, but just because you raid doesn't mean you are hardcore. You can be casual and still raid. More importantly it may be a long grind and when I saw long I mean a casual path should mean you can get your complete legendary but only after several months of working at it. A hardcore raider will probably have gotten it in half the time, but I think thats only fair. I was fairly vague in this post, but I think the gist is there.

Rawer
05-12-2011, 04:41 AM
Khelendros, you should apply to Blizzard Entertainment. Good idea.

Can casuals get Legendaries ? Answer : Yes, certain casual raiders.

If Blizzard just made it easier and easier to get a legendary ( TBC and Vanilla had the low RNG, Val'anyr had Hard Mode similar to HC mode now, Shadowmourne had 25 man, now the 10 man raids can get Dragonwrath ... next maybe 5 man hc only ?), why not make it available to everyone that wants to put the effort into it ?


Ion
http://www.tankspot.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rawer http://www.tankspot.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?p=507001#post507001)
Why isn't the legendary legendary by only dropping from 25 man HC Ragnaros ?



Because everyone knows that 25 mans are REAL raiding and 10 mans are all scrub casuals... My point there was : who is Blizzard excluding and who is including in the base of people who can get a legendary ? If Blizzard would have made the Dragonwrath only available to people that can down HC 25 man Ragnaros then 10 man raiders and 25 man normal mode raiders would have been as atleast as upset if not more pissed as the "casuals" Lore is invoking.

ghelyar
05-12-2011, 01:41 PM
While I agree for the most part, I don't agree that other people should choose whether you get the item. If you work really hard on it, you should get it anyway. Having shards drop from heroic raid bosses or whatever and being the designated person to get them in a large guild just means that no matter how hard you work, someone else might just get it because they know the guild leader in real life or whatever and there's nothing you can do about it short of making your own guild.



If Blizzard just made it easier and easier to get a legendary ( TBC and Vanilla had the low RNG, Val'anyr had Hard Mode similar to HC mode now, Shadowmourne had 25 man, now the 10 man raids can get Dragonwrath ... next maybe 5 man hc only ?), why not make it available to everyone that wants to put the effort into it ?

10 man is no easier than 25 man now. In fact some fights are easier on 25 and some are easier on 10 (particularly on heroic). This means essentially there is no difference whether you're doing it on 25 or 10, as long as you're doing it heroic. You're rewarded for the difficulty of the fight not how many people you managed to get online at once.

Loganisis
05-12-2011, 02:21 PM
As ghelyar said, theoretically 10m = 25m in difficulty. In WotlK ICC 25 was a step up from 10 man in difficulty. 10m as entry mode, 25m was competative raiding. This is why Shadowmourne could only be completed in 25m mode (well, several of the quests were 25m specific) - because only that was the 'most challenging' tier of raiding. In Cata, T11, 10m is theoretically the same difficulty as 25m (though many have argued 10m actually is more challenging outside of getting 25 people together).

Now, as to why it isn't a drop from a tier-end boss (Ragnaros in this case) - well that's the model of the warglaives legendary isn't it? It's pretty much just kill a boss get a small chance at a legendary.

***

Now, on to your question as why a person shouldn't be able to solo a current tier level legendary - the reason is then it simply isn't legnedary. It's the Battered Hilt. Based on WotLK legendaries, the model seems to be clearly it's a journey to achieve the item. If a person can solo it solely by investing time, there's nothing legendary about it.

***

On the point about what is a casual versus a raider - the problem is the same as what is 'hardcore' raiding. It's a fluid meaning to different people, but the core point here is that legendaries are only special because of the time and energy it takes for a group of people to accomplish the goal, and as such, it must be something available to only serious raiders because otherwise it becomes simply a phenominal stat-stick, not the item of prestige it is also intended to be (in addition to being seriously kick-ass).

****

So... I guess to summarize:

A) Should individuals be able to obtain legendaries by only their own work. No - it's not legendary if you can solo it.

B) Should legendaries be drops. No - because it's RNG - there are posters on here who during WotLK never saw Unidentifiable Organ drop, simply due to RNG. That's a pretty crappy way to distribute a legendary. (On a smaller scale, I went ~45 Forge of Souls in a row without seeing Needle Encrusted Scorpion drop, and I saw it only twice in 60 runs). RNG loot is RNG. RNG legendaries is bad.

C) Should casual raiders be able to obtain legendaries: No. The point of a legendary is it's prestige as much as it's stats. If any guild can obtain it, and thus obtain multiple, it's not really an accomplishment but a grind.


So - in order to keep their place and prestige (and I say this as a bitter Shadowmourne-less warrior), legendaries should be something that cannot be soloed when it's current content. They should be group efforts, and large ones at that. And there needs to be more to it than just kill X bosses Y times in order to keep Legendaries as Legendary.

******

ghelyar - as to your point, that it shouldn't be something that gets passed around to the favorites in the guild... I understand and even agree with the sentiment. But also, how do you distribute them without making them 'easy' to obtain?

If the guild is going to give them to the 'favorites' is it because they are actually high-producing members who have been around for a long time, or because they joined last week but know the GM?

If it's the former - that's actually pretty understandable - and it seems that a lot of the most stable guilds do this. If it's the later, my guess is there are deeper issues than just the legendary distribution.

You could also let performance dictate who receives it, but how many posts were there in WotLK of guys /gquit after they got their and appying to a 'better' guild?

If it's going to be kept a huge accomplishment, at least until everything is on farm for 8 months like at the end of WotLK, how do you distribute it?

Kazeyonoma
05-12-2011, 03:09 PM
i think HOW a top guild distributes the legendary is THEIR business. whether it's based on seniority because legendaries are viewed more as vanity items, or if it's based on top performers, or whatever that isn't what DEFINES a legendary, that is up to the guild, guild leader, and guild officers to decide, and should have no BASIS in this topic about legendaries availability to players. If you want a legendary you need to deserve it someway some how, whether that be in a guild that favors you one way or another is irrelevant, the method of achieving it, the non social requirements need to be difficult enough for players to actually cherish what they have at current content, and not just wave them around because everyone has them.

Gneecapper
05-12-2011, 04:54 PM
Because everyone knows that 25 mans are REAL raiding and 10 mans are all scrub casuals...

If anything 10man HC raiders are the truely dedicated, sure I have less people but my room for error is much smaller and the encounters seem to be tighter tuned and get less loot making a quick progression more difficult. I know some of you may disagree and will probably present your arguements keep in mind that this is mildly tongue in cheek.

PimpJuice4
05-12-2011, 05:21 PM
and get less loot making a quick progression more difficult.

gear doesnt equal skill

Ion
05-12-2011, 05:25 PM
If anything 10man HC raiders are the truely dedicated, sure I have less people but my room for error is much smaller and the encounters seem to be tighter tuned and get less loot making a quick progression more difficult. I know some of you may disagree and will probably present your arguements keep in mind that this is mildly tongue in cheek.

I'm being sarcastic...anyone who knows me (which, I'll grant, isn't necessarily a lot of the marmot audience...my bad) knows I'm a 10 man raider who is fairly annoyed by the sentiment I sarcastically parroted in my post. I'm of the opinion that the frustrations are different in 10 and 25 mans, but the "general difficulty" is not terribly different between the two overall (obviously some fights are easier on 10 and some are easier on 25).

Also, if my guild, who is ONLY interested in doing 10 mans, was locked out of getting the legendary for our casters (who totally deserve them) just because we wanted to do 10 mans instead of 25 mans...well that might be the final straw for me (and I'm not even one of the people apt to be getting one).

Honestly, I'd be pissed off if they even made more shards (or whatever thing you need from the raid...I haven't read up on it but I'm sure there's drops you need from the raid) drop in 25 man than in 10 man...

Loganisis
05-13-2011, 10:48 AM
Actually, if the # of shards that drop is the same between 10 and 25 that's a big boon for 10. It would mean over the life of the expansion it would be 'easier' for a 10m team to max out their casters.

But if you make drops more likely for 25m than 10m, then 25m raiders would have them sooner, so it's quandry.

Something that might work is a shard cap like VP cap might be a good in-between. 25m drop rates are 2.5x as great as 10m (balanced off the chance for 10m) but the # of shards a player can grab in a week is capped.

Maybe something like 10m has 5 bosses that drop one shard (as an example) and 25m drop the bosses drop 2 plus a 50% chance for 1 more. Then the shard cap is 5 per week. This guarantees that 10m can obtain shards and even obtain the legendaries at even a slightly faster rate per raider. (10m would work on 1 per 10, 25m would work on 2.25ish per 25).

Kojiyama
05-13-2011, 02:17 PM
Really depends on how they project the time taken to actually be. I mean, in theory what you're saying is correct but if there's only enough time to get 1 legendary on average before it's semi-obsolete, then it probably doesn't really matter too much.

It is a good point about the ratio issue, though--kinda depends on how game-changing the legendary is and if it will be a balance issue for 10 vs. 25 man groups.

Livistos
05-16-2011, 12:10 PM
I personally both enjoyed and detested the epic weapon quest chains of EverQuest back in the day. It was an epicly long quest chain which resulted in your class specific legendary weapon, but it also required your raid guild to kill specific targets to complete the chain. As expansions went on it went on the weapon "upgraded" over time and that's where the big rub came in. You had to go back and kill old targets to complete the 1.0 version of the weapon, then 1.5, then 2.0... and on and on. We had to schedule specific raid nights just to help people on their weapon progress. It was kinda insane to be honest.

Mhoram
05-16-2011, 07:34 PM
Does it really even matter? They're just as outdated come the next expansion as every other piece of loot in the game.

Kojiyama
05-17-2011, 03:05 AM
Does it really even matter? They're just as outdated come the next expansion as every other piece of loot in the game.

Of course it matters. If the reason you gave invalidated something being of significance to players, it would invalidate the whole idea of content in the game. Everything becomes outdated eventually, but it's the now (or soon, when changes are looming) which is of significance in a persistent world.