PDA

View Full Version : Tanking T12 set bonuses



Mikas
05-04-2011, 11:39 PM
http://ptr.wowhead.com/search?q=T12

warriors gets weakest bonuses again ? :)

Martie
05-05-2011, 01:34 AM
No, they don't.

Fetzie
05-05-2011, 01:45 AM
6% avoidance for 10 seconds every 30 seconds is the same as 12% avoidance for 10 seconds every 60 :) (well it is over a longer boss fight when you average it out)

can't help but notice that the paladin 4set is practically identical to the T10 4set bonus (just with divine protection instead of divine plea).

Dedic
05-05-2011, 01:53 AM
The point of DP is to mitigate incoming damage, not necessarily melee damage. So parry boost is, at best, sometimes not stupid. This bonus is as useless as all the other pally bonuses I've seen. This is why I'm not upset about missing the set bonuses by wearing the T11 DPS legs.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 03:58 AM
The tank set is pretty retarded. You want to use SB to utilize mastery especially when HtL is active. But by increasing parry with SB you want to use SB to increase SB's block value which is kinda odd. You will decrease your overall parry to stay in balance with dodge which decreases value of mastery because HtL uptime over a whole SB will be way lower. ---> GG no brain Devs

Martie
05-05-2011, 04:05 AM
Disruptor, I sure hope you never tank for me.

Katzazi
05-05-2011, 04:11 AM
While I think that more parry on click is nice, I'm not happy with the warrior bonus.

SB already does so much. It has a threat component, is already useful against melee dmg spikes and is our only spell dmg CD. 4.1 introduces SB to be used for magic spikes. The timing for the magic reduction is quite strict since it has a much shorter window. So if you need the magic reduction you cannot use SB to cover both a melee spike followed by a magic spike (it's possible with for example Divine Protection). It's hard to decide which is the best moment for SB already. To add another melee CD to it does not help.

Another point is that while SB is up, it's the time where we need additional parry the least. We already are unhitabel. Sure, parry is better than block when we are unhitable. But if you look closer those 6% will push us into unhitable anyway, at least if they don't change the numbers we need too much. So all the original element of SB - which is actually the higher chance to block - does not kick in. Instead we will see 6% higher chances to get a crit block when we block (which is not the same).

And even while 6% every 30s looks the same as 12% every 60s, it's not. It only would be if the incoming dmg does not change. But that's not the case. There are spikes. If you get few high spikes, the 12% every 60s is much better, because you can cover all important parts of the encounter by your increased parry chance. You can also cover those moments with the 30s CD, but only get 6% for each occurrence. Sure you can cover other parts of the encounter, too, but as long as there is no other spike to cover, it does not help you as much as if you could cover the big spike. On the other hand something that occurs every 30s in most cases is less dangerous than stuff that occurs on a 1m or higher CD. So while you can cover those encounter elements better with the shorter CD, it's less helpful, since well it's less dangerous to begin with.

I doubt that anybody would value the set bonus CDs the same as 2% higher parry all the time - which would be the same if you even it out.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 04:14 AM
Disruptor, I sure hope you never tank for me.

Why would I want to tank for you? It is pretty obvious that 4pc is rather destructive than helpful. It will be an overall avoidance increase but sacrifices mitigation which is basically multiplicative more important than avoidance. Especially with Firelands when mastery hard caps will be in range.

Katzazi
05-05-2011, 04:16 AM
@Disruptor: higher parry favors more mastery (at least until hit-cap) and higher mastery favors more parry. So it's nice that it give more parry instead of more dodge to begin with. And since the set bonus gives a fixed percentage you even don't have to think about diminishing returns.

To your last comment: Avoidance is better than mitigation when we get to the "hard caps".

Krenian
05-05-2011, 04:20 AM
Disruptor, I sure hope you never tank for me.

Comments like this don't help a conversation whatsoever and incite arguments. Explain yourself a bit more clearly instead of immediately bashing someone's opinion.

This is the ONLY warning I'm giving everyone in this thread. Play nice. We're all bright individuals who know how to speak to each other. Don't disappoint me.

Tengenstein
05-05-2011, 04:20 AM
@Disruptor

how does it sacrafice mitigation?

lets assume our average warrior joe has 15% parry, 15%dodge, 5% chance to be missed, and 50% block (and so 30% chance to critically block) on average his block will be stopping 39% of the damage

with SB active he has 15% parry, 15%dodge, 5% chance to be missed, and 75% block, and since this puts him over 100% block +avoidance the extra block is turned into crit block (so he now has a 40% chance fro his blocks to be critical), so his Block now stops 42% of the damage

with the new 4pc and shield block active he now has 27% parry, 15%dodge, 5% chance to be missed, and 75% block, and since this puts him over 100% block +avoidance the extra block is turned into crit block (so he now has a 62% chance fro his blocks to be critical), so his Block now stops 48.6% of the damage.

but becuase his Parry chance is also higher, his HtL time is also higher. Joe's 4pc tier12 nigh doubles his chance to proc it, which can only have a positive effect on its uptime.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 04:26 AM
The psychology behind that is not logical. SB is a CD to increase the value of mitigation. HtL utilizes that mitigation. But the 4pc wants you to use SB to make SB more worth. It will be a matter of RNG if HtL procs within SB or not. If you advance into T12 with the same relation of dodge and parry you will want to lower parry to balance DRs. This explains my statement of decreasing the value of mitigation. And those hard caps won't be easy reachable. Mastery hardcap due to gear will happen in T13-T14. I will def. skip 4PC to use better itemized slots since I am sure they screwed gear design again.
Tengenstein is right to say we got the best out of the tank bonus. But it is still hardly anything worth. HtL increases parry value by somewhere around 5-10%? and warriors do have the lowest rating of avoidance.

swelt
05-05-2011, 04:27 AM
While I think that more parry on click is nice, I'm not happy with the warrior bonus.

SB already does so much.
This is exactly what I thought. I mean, I guess there's a nice synergy between the slight additional parry chance + hold the line, but seriously, can't they stop piling more and more things on top of shield block?

Looking across the various tanking classes, I don't like any of the bonuses. Best is probably DKs DRW as there at least it's an avoidance cooldown that gets more avoidance. For warriors, 6% parry is just a single prayer to the RNG god, but it's on a kitchen sink defensive / rotational cooldown. Druids/paladins add a bit of avoidance to a flat damage reducing cooldown. Point being that those cooldowns are often timed for magic bursts, not physical damage, so layering a small avoidance on top seems nonsensical.

Leaving the theory aside, they are also pretty damned BORING for 4pc set bonuses. Probably just a cue to go offset.

Tengenstein
05-05-2011, 04:48 AM
you will want to lower parry to balance DRs.

No.

DR affects parry chance form ratings. Not parry chance from buffs.



But it is still hardly anything worth. HtL increases parry value by somewhere around 5-10%? and warriors do have the lowest rating of avoidance.

um we have the same avoidance as paladins and Deathknights last i checked except we get alot more out of parry. this bonus gives us more parry. no other class reaches unhittable, except paladins, and as soon as they do their mastery goes from being their best stat, to worthless. so their four piece is kinda not necassarily as good as it seems. in my example, Joe is gaining 12% parry, and 12% critical block...compared to the other tanking classes thats kinda...imba

Illidra
05-05-2011, 05:20 AM
you will still want probabyl 2% more parry than dodge, the 4 piece is effectively providing crit block aswell as parry, warriors have the same if not better avoidance than other classes, stop complaining.

Bigbad
05-05-2011, 05:32 AM
Its 6% parry when we least need it. If we get to unhittable next tier we'll be around 75% crit block during shieldblock not counting HtL. If it activates at the same time as shieldblock we won't get the 6% extra crit block out of it i think. Averages out a bit less then 1% damage reduction, not so exciting...
The only redeeming quality i can see is that there is a bigger chance on HtL procs that can carry over a bit after shieldblock. Now maybe if the boss gets enraged for 10 secs every 30 secs.

Booi
05-05-2011, 05:38 AM
Kind of self defeating to use T11 gear set for a T12 bonus. But just keep in mind that shield block gets better with more gear, so these numbers will simply improve.

no Shield Block
4.4% miss
16% parry
12% dodge
56% block (41% crit block w/50% avg htl)
average damage reduction = 56.88% reduction

Shield Block is typically:
4.4% miss
16% parry
12% dodge
67.6% block (54.4% crit block w/50% avg htl) (13.4% overflow)
average damage reduction of 64.76%

4 piece Shield Block: (if you don't get the critical block)
4.4% miss
22% parry
12% dodge
61.6% block (54.4% crit block w/50% avg htl) (13.4% overflow (sort of))
average damage reduction of 67.88%


4 piece Shield Block: (if you get the critical block)
4.4% miss
22% parry
12% dodge
61.6% block (60.4% crit block w/50% avg htl) (19.4% overflow)
average damage reduction of 69.02%


Shield Block: 18.27% damage reduction
4 set Shield Block: 25.51% damage reduction (if you don't get the crit block)
4 set Shield Block: 28.15% damage reduction (if you get the crit block)

This makes shield block 40% better than it currently is (or 54% if you get the 6% critical block)

If 4 set gave:
Shield Wall now reduces 40% more damage would you be likely to complain? It seems pretty similar to 50% longer duration of the T11 set bonus.

Updated to include the values assuming you get 6% critical block, and assuming you don't.

Bigbad
05-05-2011, 05:48 AM
Booi I have no idea how they will implement it but i doubt it will add 6% crit block as well. Shieldblock only checks once when its used how much crit blocks it gives, but we can hope :)

edit:
To clarify, shieldblock isn't dynamic as far as i know it only checks your avoidance ratings once at the start. Kinda hard to test this but the buff icon that displays the critical block increase at least doesn't update. I'm afraid that with the 4 piece it will go like use shieldblock>check avoidance ratings>add 25% block + x% crit block+6% parry.

Reev
05-05-2011, 06:19 AM
Booi I have no idea how they will implement it but i doubt it will add 6% crit block as well. Shieldblock only checks once when its used how much crit blocks it gives, but we can hope :)

Bigbad, 6% parry means 6% less of the combat table for Shield block to cover, which means 6% more overflow into critical block. So yes, you'll get 6% more crit block with the 4 piece bonus.

Edit: unless, as I think you may be saying, the parry is given after the crit block from Shield Block is calculated. Seems like that would be a really crappy way to set this up though. Don't know why the parry wouldn't be put in the calculation first.

Booi
05-05-2011, 06:19 AM
Booi I have no idea how they will implement it but i doubt it will add 6% crit block as well. Shieldblock only checks once when its used how much crit blocks it gives, but we can hope :)

excellent point (I hadn't thought of that).
But if you use a dodge trinket after you hit shield block - i've always assumed it pushed up your critical block.

kopcap
05-05-2011, 06:24 AM
This is horrible. Lets make the warriors a little more unhitttable when they are already unhittable. We are not dying during SB already. This does nothing to our survivability.

Reev
05-05-2011, 06:30 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how people can complain so loudly about bonus survivability. This is a BONUS. And it reduces our damage taken. Yeah, it's during a time when we're already taking less damage, but this makes that even less. I'll take it, and the 2 piece is sexy as hell.

kopcap
05-05-2011, 06:46 AM
What good is a bonus if no one wants it? People gonna be running in 2p.

Reev
05-05-2011, 06:47 AM
What good is a bonus if no one wants it? People gonna be running in 2p.

I'll take the 4pc so long as the equipment isn't covered in hit or whatever. Why not? A bonus is a bonus.

Booi
05-05-2011, 07:00 AM
I'll take the 4pc so long as the equipment isn't covered in hit or whatever. Why not? A bonus is a bonus.

And it's not:
Helm: parry/expertise (this is your off piece)
Shoulders: mastery/hit (significantly more mastery than hit)
chest: dodge/parry
gloves: dodge/mastery
legs: parry/mastery

To be fair, there is a mastery/parry chest off-piece. But I doubt the difference in a reforge will cover the 4 set bonus.

Katzazi
05-05-2011, 07:39 AM
At least it's relatively easy to determine a value for the bonus to compare it to other stats. However I think it's probably quite situational. We don't know much about the encounters. But the overall theme (and some of the changes we saw for 4.1) looks like there will be some fire dmg to deal with. No tank set bonus deals with magic dmg. So at least all of them do something comparable. But it's much too early to be able how useful more avoidance will be when we can get the bonus.

The last comment of GC about hit and expertise for tanks did not sound like that we need all hit and expertise to be able to tank. If that would be the case they would not think about how to make them worth to take. But we don't know if we will want mastery on every piece or if we reach the "cap" so that avoidance will be preferable at least on some items. If that's the case, avoidance that does not take DRs is nice, especially when it is parry.

The set bonus will be somewhat around 2% averaged out (it depends on how often and for what you use SB, if there are many casts while SB is up, it's probably less, if you can use SB all the time for when you have to pickup and tank multiple adds it will be higher). So you can compare the two items you consider to take for the bonus with whatever other item you can get for the slots and just compare them, with giving the set items the ratings you would need to get those 2% parry.

In most cases you will probably be able to decide it on a encounter basis. It's always good to have multiple sets for different situations. And it's quite easy to get side-grades as a tank. (And if it does not drop at all - well you don't have a choice to make, anyway.)


However, while I think that it's worth to evaluate the sets, it's not as important as it was before. As long as they don't create items with very bad stat combination (which are quite easy to avoid) we will not stick to old sets anymore, because the increased ratings (and base stats) are nearly always worth to switch to the higher item level at least for most encounters. And that's the only think Blizz would have problems with.

higher
05-05-2011, 07:59 AM
Sorry guys I don't want to derail the discussion but you are referring to unhittable a couple of times. I'm a warrior and on paper I'm unhittable while SB is up (around 109%) yet I see full hits from bosses but also from trash while SB is up. How is it possible? Bosses already have expertise?

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 08:42 AM
No.

DR affects parry chance form ratings. Not parry chance from buffs.


Is there any prove for this?




um we have the same avoidance as paladins and Deathknights last i checked except we get alot more out of parry. this bonus gives us more parry. no other class reaches unhittable, except paladins, and as soon as they do their mastery goes from being their best stat, to worthless. so their four piece is kinda not necassarily as good as it seems. in my example, Joe is gaining 12% parry, and 12% critical block...compared to the other tanking classes thats kinda...imba

Parry is about 3% more worth for Warriors than dodge. This is not really "alot more". And as you stated paladins are incredibly fast unhittable, this is why they have higher avoidance than us. DKs might have around the same we do.

Booi has a good point. But imagine T12 gear with HtL/SB/Crab up. You should be easily at 102.4% hardcapped. So there are 2 choices, you trade 6% parry with 6% block or even worse with 6% crit block. Why would you want 6% more parry if you get 62% less damage anyway?

Your calculations make no sense to me. Basically you have to chose between 61.6%-> 38% damage and 67.6%-> 38% damage if hard capped. Any left % will do no damage.

61.6%*38%=23.408% (with 6% parry)
67.6%*38%=25.688% (without 6% parry)

This is a 10% damage decrease.

SBs value is very hard to find. Basically the value of SB is always the same no matter if you get unhittable and 31% less damage or hardcapped and get further more 31% less damage. SB can only get worse when you reach the hardcap. Giving it 6% parry is decent but kinda stupid because in a 30 second time window you get further less damage in 10sec of SB but the same in the other 20 sec. Overall you "would" get 2% parry but by putting those 6% into SB time frame you get less out of your parries. So 2% overall parry were much better than 6% parry while SB. And there is no need to calculate SBs value because SB is used on CD anyways. The design is kinda odd.

Reev
05-05-2011, 08:45 AM
IWhy would you want 6% more parry if you get 62% less damage anyway?


Why wouldn't you? It's like asking why you would want to get 1% more avoidance when you already have 30% avoidance. It's still less damage taken.

You've been given a cake, and you're complaining that the frosting is vanilla instead of vanilla bean. Enjoy the freaking cake!

Katzazi
05-05-2011, 08:49 AM
Is there any prove for this?


Since the set is not available for our testing at the moment, no. But since it says, that it gives us 6% parry, it should do exactly that: give us 6% additional parry. Percentages is the result after DR. DR only applies to the conversion from ratings to percentages. Since they don't say that we get additional ratings, but additional percentages, that's the only way it makes sense. Because for everything else they would have to fix the amount of ratings to something which would change all the time. (Btw. it should be the same as with other on-click "you get X% of something".)

ironsides
05-05-2011, 08:53 AM
I have to throw my 2 cents in, I do tend to agree that I would prefer the bonus parry was static instead of only during shield block because I am already so tank with it up. The only times I am worried about dieing is when shield block is down, and while I understand it is a free bonus, and I will gladly take that bonus, it would have indeed been much better if it wasn't going up with shield block but instead just like 2% increased parry. They might as well have made it give 6% critical block instead of parry but because of HtL I guess it's nice they went parry instead. Interesting 4 pc, could have been better, I am just not a fan of making cds make you ridiculously tanky then squishy without them up.

Illidra
05-05-2011, 08:55 AM
it has always been fact that flat % increases from to dodge and parry are not affected by DR, using sword shattering as dk = 4% more parry.

% buffs ignore DR
rating buffs suffer from DR.

now stop arguing for the sake of arguing coz my troll sense is tingling.

Reev
05-05-2011, 08:56 AM
I have to throw my 2 cents in, I do tend to agree that I would prefer the bonus parry was static instead of only during shield block because I am already so tank with it up. The only times I am worried about dieing is when shield block is down, and while I understand it is a free bonus, and I will gladly take that bonus, it would have indeed been much better if it wasn't going up with shield block but instead just like 2% increased parry. They might as well have made it give 6% critical block instead of parry but because of HtL I guess it's nice they went parry instead. Interesting 4 pc, could have been better, I am just not a fan of making cds make you ridiculously tanky then squishy without them up.

Of course it would be better if it was static. It would also be better if it gave 50% parry instead of 6%. The point of these bonuses isn't to make them awesomely OP. The point is to give you a little bump in power for taking the time to assemble all 4 set pieces at no additional stat budget cost. This gives you that bump in survivability. It's not huge, but it's not meant to be.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 09:09 AM
Why wouldn't you? It's like asking why you would want to get 1% more avoidance when you already have 30% avoidance. It's still less damage taken.

You've been given a cake, and you're complaining that the frosting is vanilla instead of vanilla bean. Enjoy the freaking cake!

It's just another typical design fail. There is no reasoning imo for making your strongest CD in Firelands even stronger. You get the 10% less damage in a time frame you do not need it. I know why they did it because SB loses practical value. If you have 77.4+ right now it is very strong to get unhittable and take out huge hits to smooth out damage incoming. When talking about hard cap healers won't care if you get 69% or 38% damage ( even speaking for 10s). So they "had" to buff SB. ( They will nerf prot warrior mastery anyway. Maybe this patch note is the first indication.)

Reev
05-05-2011, 09:13 AM
I know why they did it because SB loses practical value.

How does that make any sense? A bonus that increases your parry while using SB makes SB lose value?

This is a small buff to damage reduction. That's what it's meant to be. Set bonuses aren't supposed to make you a ton stronger. They are supposed to help a little bit, and this does that. Less damage taken is still less damage taken even if you weren't in danger of death.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 09:19 AM
How does that make any sense? A bonus that increases your parry while using SB makes SB lose value?


Imagine Cho'gall HC or Nef HC. Bosses hit for 60-70k which is in our content hard hitting and combined with flame debuff or breath the Tanks dead. When using SB to decrease the dmg by 31% you get around 40-50k which already gives you around 1-2 hits more until you die or the healers 7-8 more GCDs to react. When talking about Firelands damage won't increase much higher since Warriors are the only spec with a strong mitigation like this so there is almost no difference if you have 77.4% to decrease damage by 62% or 102.4% by 62%. Healers will most likely always have more than enough time to top you with small and mana efficient heals.

Your question was about something I mentioned 2 posts ago. It is pretty obvious that decreasing the hit table by 6% parry makes you either waste 6% block/crit block or wants you to drop 6% crit block. SB will be very strong in Firelands because it will be most likely the only CD combined with HtL / ( crab ) which hard caps mastery. It is good to take out 6% of the hit table to get us closer to that. But it is paradox as well because you reach that cap easier and the % of mastery usage while SB is lower since avoidance % grew due to 6% increased parry.

Tengenstein
05-05-2011, 09:27 AM
Incrasing the chance to parry does not waste Block until your hit table is entirely filled with Miss, Parry, Dodge and Crit Block.And I very much doubt we'll see that much rating on gear in firelands, or ever.

Did you miss the part of shieldblock's tooltip where it says excess block is turned into critical block? as thats the only scenarioi can think of which doesn't make you a troll?

Reev
05-05-2011, 09:31 AM
Your question was about something I mentioned 2 posts ago. It is pretty obvious that decreasing the hit table by 6% parry makes you either waste 6% block/crit block or wants you to drop 6% crit block. SB will be very strong in Firelands because it will be most likely the only CD combined with HtL / ( crab ) which hard caps mastery. It is good to take out 6% of the hit table to get us closer to that. But it is paradox as well because you reach that cap easier and the % of mastery usage while SB is lower since avoidance % grew due to 6% increased parry.

That doesn't make sense. If you're at 90% unhittability before Shield block and you hit it, you get 6% from parry, and 25% from SB. That's 102.4% plus 18.6% additional critical block, and 6% of the hits that would have been blocks are now avoided entirely. Without the 4 piece, you would go from 90% unhittability to 102.4% with 12.6% additional crit block, and no additional avoidance.

How does 6% more avoidance and 6% more crit block diminish the value of Shield Block?

Reev
05-05-2011, 09:31 AM
Incrasing the chance to parry does not waste Block until your hit table is entirely filled with Miss, Parry, Dodge and Crit Block.And I very much doubt we'll see that much rating on gear in firelands, or ever.

Did you miss the part of shieldblock's tooltip where it says excess block is turned into critical block? as thats the only scenarioi can think of which doesn't make you a troll?

This.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 09:35 AM
Imagine you look at the hard cap. If you do the same procedure those 18.6% would be completely wasted instead of 12.6%. So there is 6% less you can actually "invest" into blocking. Important for me is usually you have xx% avoidance and yy% blocking. With T12 4pc you have xx%+6% avoidance and yy%-6% blocking. So you decrease the proportion of blocks.

Reev
05-05-2011, 09:38 AM
Imagine you look at the hard cap. If you do the same procedure those 18.6% would be completely wasted instead of 12.6%. So there is 6% less you can actually "invest" into blocking. Important for me is usually you have xx% avoidance and yy% blocking. With T12 4pc you have xx%+6% avoidance and yy%-6% blocking. So you decrease the proportion of blocks.

Only if you're hard capped on Blocks, in which case you do trade 6% avoidance for a loss of 6% block (which is still less damage taken), but you still gain all of the shield block 25% towards critical blocking. You still come out a huge honkin' winner, no matter what. The only way you lose value to Shield Block is if using Shield Block takes you over 100% critical block, and then you're still gaining by switching block out for parry, which is better than block.

Ion
05-05-2011, 09:41 AM
Once again I feel stupider for having read a thread. Well played gentlemen...

Fetzie
05-05-2011, 09:43 AM
You can stack mastery so that every hit is turned into an avoid or a block (100% reduce or 30/60% respectively). However, if you block you still take damage. The only time it is not worth getting more avoidance is when your dodge, parry and miss chances add up to 102.4% against a same level target. Otherwise more avoidance means less damage taken, even when you block everything that isn't avoided.

When you block everything, instead of maximising your block chance you want to MINIMISE it. By increasing your avoidance at this point you take even less damage. You cannot cap avoidance.

PimpJuice4
05-05-2011, 09:49 AM
I'll take the 4pc so long as the equipment isn't covered in hit or whatever. Why not? A bonus is a bonus.

id rather have stuff covered in hit then have to not get tier gear because ill be under hit capped if i got it.but whatever,i could care less anyway.im not one of those people who only care about loot

eather way,i doubt im gonna see much tier 12 content anyway but i play a melee dps and im sure with blizzards just awesome balancing skills who knows.they might make tier 12 as melee unfriendly as tier 11 content.eather way i think the set bonus for dk tier 12 is dumb anyway,yeah i get more runic power for a skill i never use because theres usually eather a fury warrior with battle shout that overrides my horn of winter or another dk in the party does it

Martie
05-05-2011, 09:55 AM
It is pretty obvious that 4pc is rather destructive than helpful.
No, it's not. More avodiance is good, not bad.

It will be an overall avoidance increase but sacrifices mitigation
No, it doesn't.

which is basically multiplicative more important than avoidance.
Depends on the respective amounts. Also, (critical)block is a weird version of chance-based mitigation, which is far less valuable than constant mitigation.

Especially with Firelands when mastery hard caps will be in range.
I very much doubt warriors will ever see a mastery hard cap.

Martie
05-05-2011, 09:57 AM
It's just another typical design fail. There is no reasoning imo for making your strongest CD in Firelands even stronger.Shield block isn't your strongest cooldown.

You get the 10% less damage in a time frame you do not need it.
Tanks always need 10% less damage taken.

sifuedition
05-05-2011, 10:14 AM
I think disruptor is kissunderstanding how the combat table works, and I won't claim to be the true xpert at it myself, so I guess that's understandable.

Th key here is that after 102.4, the first part of combat table coverage to fall off is block and Disruptor seems focused on this. However, you have to realize that you are pushing 30% damage reduction off for more 100% damage reduction chance. This is a xirect upgrade and it is not fair to worry about "wasted" block.

To add to this, for warriors, pushing block off the combat table makes the blocks you do more likely to be crit blocks based on the tooltip info provided earlier so you are Making the remaining block stronger.

This isven before you add the bonus due to HtL.

It seems you are viewing combat table coverage like hit where anything above 102.4 is wasted. If you were a pally, you would basically be right. For a warrior, crit block and Hold The Line make going over a Good thing.

Booi
05-05-2011, 10:30 AM
Why would you want 6% more parry if you get 62% less damage anyway?
Because when you are taking only 38% damage, 6% parry reduces incoming damage by 15.8% - not 6%.


Your calculations make no sense to me. Basically you have to chose between 61.6%-> 38% damage and 67.6%-> 38% damage if hard capped. Any left % will do no damage.

61.6%*38%=23.408% (with 6% parry)
67.6%*38%=25.688% (without 6% parry)

This is a 10% damage decrease.

My math does make sense.
I said that it made shield block 40/54% better, not that it reduced damage by 40/54%. (the 40/54 depend on whether we get the 6% critical block)



SBs value is very hard to find. Basically the value of SB is always the same no matter if you get unhittable and 31% less damage or hardcapped and get further more 31% less damage.

Even if you assume hard cap (@~65% block, 35% avoid) you're sitting at a critical block of 45%
If you hit shield block, you're now up to 70% critical block. and you're suggesting the 6% parry is wasted or worse?

Damage Reduction:
35% avoidance
65% block (subset: 45% crit block, averaged to 50% including htl)

Damage Reduced without shield block:
35 + 65(0.5)(.31) + 65(0.5)(.62) = 65.225% damage reduction

now you throw in shield block (no four piece):
35 + 65(0.25)(.31) + 65(.75)(.62) = 70.2625% of damage reduced

now you throw in 6% parry (and no crit block, assume worst case on the 4 set)
41 + 59(0.25)(0.31) + 59(.75)(.62) = 73.0075% damage reduced.

That six percent parry is reducing damage by 9.2% while shield block is up. (that's in addition to shield blocks baseline effects). It's as good at hard cap as it was before.

swelt
05-05-2011, 10:31 AM
I don't know where this thread turned into a re-discovery of how the hit table works, but I suppose it is worth remembering something: This is T12 raiding, in which (if Blizzard stick to their plans from Blizzcon) bosses will start getting some kind of expertise, requiring tanks to have higher levels of avoidance ratings than in T11 to achieve the same level of actual avoidance vs bosses.

I still think the 4pc bonuses for all tank classes, and especially warriors, are currently unappealing and remain hopeful that they are placeholders.

Raysere
05-05-2011, 10:44 AM
I borrowed my nieces colored pencils and did a 20min diagram to try and show why some of the arguments being made here are silly. As far as theory is concerned, you will take less damage with SB up with this bonus, thus it improves and not diminishes the value of SB. End of story. Incredibly dumbed down picture to follow. Yes, I know I spelled Shield Block wrong.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/chronus26/th_IMG_0028.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v505/chronus26/?action=view&current=IMG_0028.jpg)

Booi
05-05-2011, 10:52 AM
I borrowed my nieces colored pencils and did a 20min diagram to try and show why some of the arguments being made here are silly. As far as theory is concerned, you will take less damage with SB up with this bonus, thus it improves and not diminishes the value of SB. End of story. Incredibly dumbed down picture to follow. Yes, I know I spelled Shield Block wrong.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/chronus26/th_IMG_0028.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v505/chronus26/?action=view&current=IMG_0028.jpg)

Okay, you win. and not just because of the Crayons.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 11:02 AM
No, it's not. More avodiance is good, not bad.

No, it doesn't.

Depends on the respective amounts. Also, (critical)block is a weird version of chance-based mitigation, which is far less valuable than constant mitigation.

I very much doubt warriors will ever see a mastery hard cap.

Thanks for this post. I stated some things very bad.

More avoidance is always good. My concern is taking mastery its importance. With more avoidance block and mitigation looks less attractive. This will lead to the same old problem why SW and ICC had a tanking debuff. Blizz Devs are just completely retarded bringing back the conflict they had 1 and 2 addons ago.

Well. Blocking works in 2 stages. Stage 1: reaching 102.4% for constant 31% less damage. Stage 2: reaching 102.4% crit block for constant 62% less damage. Stage 1 is right now reachable as I imagine. Im in a 10s 13/13 guild but lack BiS gear and 1 BiS profession (since my main spec is Arms) though I have 94% raidbuffed.

The mastery Hard cap is even now not that far away. 40+-% mastery + 25% SB % 10% Htl + 10% crab ( or something around. Don't have the numbers in mind).

My overall conclusion is: As useless 4 PC right now is due to bad itemization and design, as useless 4PC T12 will be.

Edit:
Well, SB is 33% up, gives us 25% block / crit block ( mb over caps which make SB more important ) and 25% less magic dmg. You can't compare this with SW which is kinda useless on really high values of mastery when getting physical damage.

I rather take 3-4% less damage out of SB than getting 10% less in SB. Depending on your own priorities.

Reev
05-05-2011, 12:34 PM
The mastery Hard cap is even now not that far away. 40+-% mastery + 25% SB % 10% Htl + 10% crab ( or something around. Don't have the numbers in mind).


The hard cap is at 100% critical block, which we are a long way off on, and probably won't attempt to reach, for the simple reason that after the soft cap is reached (102.4% block/dodge/parry/miss), avoidance will be the new hotness, replacing mastery over time. Then when diminishing returns on avoidance get high enough (probably won't happen), we'll go back to stacking more mastery because you'll get enough critical block per rating to make it more economic than avoidance, but you still won't hit that hard cap.

Also, if what Blizzard has suggested is true, bosses will start having the equivalent of expertise, making you require more rating to keep the same percentages against them, changing things up for us again.

Martie
05-05-2011, 05:29 PM
More avoidance is always good. My concern is taking mastery its importance. With more avoidance block and mitigation looks less attractive. This will lead to the same old problem why SW and ICC had a tanking debuff. Blizz Devs are just completely retarded bringing back the conflict they had 1 and 2 addons ago.
Wrong. More avoidance makes block more attractive. It also makes Shield Block stronger.
I'm not sure what you mean with SW (Shield Wall seems unlikely, StormWind makes little sense either,) but the ICC buff had little to do with blocking, it had to do with avoidance levels getting to ridiculous amounts. Blocking got less valuable because back then it was a set number, and low enough for it to be rather ignorable. It was nice, but didn't really matter against ICC heroic bosses.



Well. Blocking works in 2 stages. Stage 1: reaching 102.4% for constant 31% less damage. Stage 2: reaching 102.4% crit block for constant 62% less damage. Stage 1 is right now reachable as I imagine. Im in a 10s 13/13 guild but lack BiS gear and 1 BiS profession (since my main spec is Arms) though I have 94% raidbuffed.

I don't doubt that warriors will regain the ability to become unhittable again, if they don't have that already. What I doubt is that they'll eve reach the block hardcap you keep talking about. Reev explained why.




The mastery Hard cap is even now not that far away. 40+-% mastery + 25% SB % 10% Htl + 10% crab ( or something around. Don't have the numbers in mind).
You need to re-check your terminology.


My overall conclusion is: As useless 4 PC right now is due to bad itemization and design, as useless 4PC T12 will be.

I don't know how to put this nicely.
You are wrong. 6% extra parry is extremely good, 6% extra critical block is extremely nice to have. Calling this useless shows a complete lack of understanding of how tanking is supposed to work.

Kazeyonoma
05-05-2011, 05:37 PM
basically when you use shield block with 4 pc tier 12, you gain 6% parry which effectively pushes 6% more of your mastery into Critical Block chance. Never a bad thing.

Disruptor
05-05-2011, 07:33 PM
More avoidance makes blocking less attractive because you do increase block and crit block over mastery. If you increase avoidance by specific amounts your block will be pushed out of the table and you want to drop mastery which decreases your crit block and the overall mitigation by blocking itself. SB gets only better if you decrease your overall avoidance+block to 77.4%.
And that is exactly what I was talking about. Giving flat amounts of avoidance on Tier-pieces will bring back the old conflict of avoidance beeing too high and damage to be spiky again.


BiS gear ~
45%+25%SB+10%HTL+15%crab = 95%

As I already calculated. Why would you need a further 10% damage decrease when you get 38% anyway. So you ll get almost 35% instead. Who cares? Those 6% Parry will push half of mastery out of the table and when talking about Firelands SB will def not increase block by any %. So you won't experience any additional 6% critblock.
As I am Arms main I dont care that much about this evolution. Otherwise I would have already calculated if it is better to stick with 102.4% and decrease mastery by any increased % of avoidance or you focus on pure mastery to ensure highest uptime of critblock.

You could do a trade. If 2-3 non tier items exceed 1,5% avoidance or x rating mastery stick with 2/5. Otherwise take 4/5. If 4pc is really useful depends on the set itemization and the non set pieces.

Reev
05-05-2011, 09:03 PM
More avoidance makes blocking less attractive because you do increase block and crit block over mastery. If you increase avoidance by specific amounts your block will be pushed out of the table and you want to drop mastery which decreases your crit block and the overall mitigation by blocking itself. SB gets only better if you decrease your overall avoidance+block to 77.4%.
And that is exactly what I was talking about. Giving flat amounts of avoidance on Tier-pieces will bring back the old conflict of avoidance beeing too high and damage to be spiky again.


BiS gear ~
45%+25%SB+10%HTL+15%crab = 95%

As I already calculated. Why would you need a further 10% damage decrease when you get 38% anyway. So you ll get almost 35% instead. Who cares? Those 6% Parry will push half of mastery out of the table and when talking about Firelands SB will def not increase block by any %. So you won't experience any additional 6% critblock.
As I am Arms main I dont care that much about this evolution. Otherwise I would have already calculated if it is better to stick with 102.4% and decrease mastery by any increased % of avoidance or you focus on pure mastery to ensure highest uptime of critblock.

You could do a trade. If 2-3 non tier items exceed 1,5% avoidance or x rating mastery stick with 2/5. Otherwise take 4/5. If 4pc is really useful depends on the set itemization and the non set pieces.

It's been explained several times already, but you seem to be continuing to say 2+2=5, so I'm going to assume you're a troll at this point and decline to respond.

Katzazi
05-06-2011, 01:14 AM
More avoidance makes blocking less attractive because you do increase block and crit block over mastery. If you increase avoidance by specific amounts your block will be pushed out of the table and you want to drop mastery which decreases your crit block and the overall mitigation by blocking itself. SB gets only better if you decrease your overall avoidance+block to 77.4%.
And that is exactly what I was talking about.

The thing is, that you DON'T get a flat amount of avoidance via the set bonus. You only get the avoidance while SB is up. But you don't adjust your gear to fill the combat table only when SB is up. You don't do it now and you definitily should not du it with T12. Nobody would reduce their avoidance+block from 102.4% down to 96,4% so that the additional parry would fill up your combat table. You don't consider the additional parry while reforging and geming. You adjust your gear so that covers the combat table most optimal while SB (and other CDs like trinkets) are down. So this additional parry would not have an effect on how we treat our gear. We will try to get as unhittable as possible anyway.


Giving flat amounts of avoidance on Tier-pieces will bring back the old conflict of avoidance beeing too high and damage to be spiky again.6% for 1/3 of the time is way too low to have such an effect. You can even it out to 2% more avoidance over the whole encounter. That is in the margins of not being recognizable compared to the rng for the course of one encounter. If you look at the number of avoids after the encounter you will probably not be able to tell if a warrior with the set bonus did pop SB on CD and was a little bit unlucky or if the warrior did not push SB at all and was a little bit lucky with avoidances.

Our avoidance is much lower than it was in Wrath. You know - at the moment we even gear away from avoidance. And even while avoidance gets more attractive as soon as we can cover the combat table with at least normal blocks, we will want to cover at least parts of it with mastery (because it will scale better). So we never will put all our ratings into avoidance. At the moment we probably sit at around 30% avoidance. It's far away from being spiky especially when we block most of the time. Which we will do even with the 6% added. Than our avoidance stays far below 50%, so most of the attacs are not avoided.

Anyway, all other classes get much higher percentages (10%-15%) as their set bonus but on a longer CD. Those values may be high enough to make the dmg a little bit spike while the CD is up. But since those CDs are dmg reducing CDs the "spikes" are not as dangerous to begin with and well it occures less frequently to begin with (CDs are longer).

And remember, too high avoidance levels mostly started to be a problem in the last tier of an expansion (or the end of the tier before the last). T12 will probably be just not be considered good enough when we get there. I doubt that tanks would trade 4 items of highest gear (and probably better itemization) against 4 items of some tiers lower (however you count the "half" tiers) just to get this set bonus. It's not a permanent addition to SB, we only will have it for hard modes of fireland and beginning of next tier.

Disruptor
05-06-2011, 06:35 AM
Your points are all pretty good and true. But as you stated as well we won't reduce any ratings with T12 4pc. So nobody will ever experience any additional 6% crit block. You basically lose 6% block while SB is up, gain 6% parry and additional 25% crit block. So you trade 6% parry with ( 6%*(1-x%)+6%*(x%)) block.

It's the design that is kinda misplaced imo. We might sit around at "only" 30% right now. But consider BiS T12 gear you might be around 40-45%, palas even higher. Plus the higher avoidance given for DKs and palas might create that old conflict. We ll see that when Firelands is released.

In my eyes it is a massive fail to go back on avoidance. Blizz stated they do not want the old design of 30k Life, 25 k Hits with 50-60% avoidance. This is 1 step towards it. I would rather like to see increase of mitigations of all specs. Every spec has his own mitigation right now, some better, some worse. They could also increase armor or compl new stuff. It is an opinion and stick with whatever you think is right. But to me this 4pc is so inefficient that I already consider taking better non tier pieces.

Oh and btw if this is true : Also, if what Blizzard has suggested is true, bosses will start having the equivalent of expertise, making you require more rating to keep the same percentages against them, changing things up for us again.
We have our tanking debuff already which supports my opinion.

Fetzie
05-06-2011, 06:42 AM
the avoidance DR gets so steep that I do not believe we will see combined avoidance going above 40% this expansion.

You don't lose block, you gain parry when you use shield block. when block capped you should be happy to be losing blocks - you are trading a 70% hit for a 0% "hit". When you use shield block any block chance above 102.4% gets turned into critical block chance which can convert the remaining 70% hits into 40% hits.

There is no downside to gaining avoidance when block capped, especially when it is only temporary.

Bigbad
05-06-2011, 07:16 AM
Kinda silly how you argue that the set bonus is completely inefficient and that it will push avoidance to unacceptable high levels. I belief blizzard has some longterm plan for progression of itemlevels so it won't get as high as the end of wotlk and you're exaggerating a bit.

From what Booi posted the Tier12 is better itemized then T11.


And it's not:
Helm: parry/expertise (this is your off piece)
Shoulders: mastery/hit (significantly more mastery than hit)
chest: dodge/parry
gloves: dodge/mastery
legs: parry/mastery

To be fair, there is a mastery/parry chest off-piece. But I doubt the difference in a reforge will cover the 4 set bonus.

Legs & gloves are great, chest will trade of some mastery for avoidance, shoulderpiece isn't perfect maybe loose some avoidance ratings if there is a better offpiece. All depends on how easy it is to get unhittable but might end up with the 4piece if i can get unhittable with it.

Katzazi
05-06-2011, 08:08 AM
Sure if it's a decision between passive unhittable with other pieces and not being able to reach passive unhittable while wearing those 4 pieces it's not a question at all what one should take for at least most situations. But we should either be able to reach passive unhittable anyway (when they don't change boss expertise) or we will not reach it at all in that tier (when they change it so that we are sitting at comparable percentages we have now). But that's the only situation where taking the 4piece set bonus is worse than if you take off-pieces.

Loganisis
05-06-2011, 11:18 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how people can complain so loudly about bonus survivability. This is a BONUS. And it reduces our damage taken. Yeah, it's during a time when we're already taking less damage, but this makes that even less. I'll take it, and the 2 piece is sexy as hell.

Wow, am I late to the party. Reev, it was like you were fighting a one man battle there. XD

It is a bonus, but because of when it occurs, it's going to be viewed as less than face value.

2 things will play into it:
A) Are tanks using SB on CD or saving it as a CD again? If it's being saved, say because there is periodic magic damage that comes in faster than the CD on other abilities, then the bonus won't be as useful.

B) Tanks already have the combat table covered with block, and guessing with 4pc gear, crit block will be very high up on the list as well. So the bonus occurs when you 'least' need it.

****

I think, while a bonus, tying it to SB hamstrings it's value. I would have liked to have seen something that was also more active...

Something like targets hit by your concussion blow have a 6% higher chance of missing for 10 seconds. Or maybe not concussion blow, but something like, something where it's more of the tanks choosing (maybe a chance per revenge use that parry is increased by 6%...)

It's nearly the same thing (maybe a little weaker even because it doesn't buff parry for HtL benefit), but it's more under the tank's control versus tying it to an ability that, at least for some portion of the fights, will be viewed more as a CD than a keep on CD ability.

As it stands right now, it's nice, but it doesn't seem like a well-designed bonus - more like it's yet ANOTHER thing lumped into the SB button.

Be interesting to see what the itemizations of all the gears are and if the 4pc ends up being worth it if Blizz keeps up the current design of making the tier pieces less well itemized than drops, requiring players to choose between bonuses and better itemization.

Reev
05-06-2011, 11:52 AM
Wow, am I late to the party. Reev, it was like you were fighting a one man battle there. XD

It is a bonus, but because of when it occurs, it's going to be viewed as less than face value.

2 things will play into it:
A) Are tanks using SB on CD or saving it as a CD again? If it's being saved, say because there is periodic magic damage that comes in faster than the CD on other abilities, then the bonus won't be as useful.

B) Tanks already have the combat table covered with block, and guessing with 4pc gear, crit block will be very high up on the list as well. So the bonus occurs when you 'least' need it.

****

I think, while a bonus, tying it to SB hamstrings it's value. I would have liked to have seen something that was also more active...

Something like targets hit by your concussion blow have a 6% higher chance of missing for 10 seconds. Or maybe not concussion blow, but something like, something where it's more of the tanks choosing (maybe a chance per revenge use that parry is increased by 6%...)

It's nearly the same thing (maybe a little weaker even because it doesn't buff parry for HtL benefit), but it's more under the tank's control versus tying it to an ability that, at least for some portion of the fights, will be viewed more as a CD than a keep on CD ability.

As it stands right now, it's nice, but it doesn't seem like a well-designed bonus - more like it's yet ANOTHER thing lumped into the SB button.

Be interesting to see what the itemizations of all the gears are and if the 4pc ends up being worth it if Blizz keeps up the current design of making the tier pieces less well itemized than drops, requiring players to choose between bonuses and better itemization.

Putting it into an active ability gives warriors ANOTHER damage reduction cooldown, when we're already replete with them. On my warrior, I have:

Shield Block
Shield Wall
Last Stand (Usually together with Enraged Regen, so I won't count them as separate cooldowns, though they are)
Quick-Flip Deflection Gauntlets
Vial of Stolen Memories

Chain those together and you have huge stretches of time where you're really hard to kill. If we give warriors yet another cooldown, or worse yet, a whole lot more passive damage reduction, Blizzard will have to design bosses under the assumption that you ALWAYS have some sort of damage reduction cooldown on you. That kinda sucks.

The 6% more parry during shield block adds something to the ability which already has block chance, crit block chance, and magic reduction on it, but the ability still only does 2 things: mitigate melee swings, and mitigate magic damage. Adding parry just makes a fairly strong cooldown that much stronger.

It's like buying a car that gets 30 miles per gallon, and being told that they'll upgrade it to make 38 miles to a gallon at no extra cost. It's a win.

Loganisis
05-06-2011, 12:52 PM
I don't see it that way at all. It's like going from 30mpg to 30.2mpg while you're running on batteries in a hybrid car. It's definately better, but not the same as somewhere else.

And moving it into an active us ability like Revenge doesn't give you another CD (and please, never compare SB/SW/LS/ER/SR, etc to a 6% RNG chance of something good happening - and heck, even Demo/TC > 6% parry).

We agree it's a benefit.

I would like to see it as more a random or controlled use benefit so it doesn't stack when we need it the least. Having the 6% extra parry is more useful outside of SB than inside, since at our gear levels we're already guaranteed at least 30% damage mitigation and many are pushing 50/50 that's its 60% guaranteed mitigation.

Adding a survival trait proc chance to a TPS tool is a nice combiation. Sometimes it will overlap with SB, sometimes it won't, and that would be a more desireable design.

It's almost like this is adding too much sugar to the cake mix XD

Reev
05-06-2011, 12:59 PM
I don't see it that way at all. It's like going from 30mpg to 30.2mpg while you're running on batteries in a hybrid car. It's definately better, but not the same as somewhere else.

And moving it into an active us ability like Revenge doesn't give you another CD (and please, never compare SB/SW/LS/ER/SR, etc to a 6% RNG chance of something good happening - and heck, even Demo/TC > 6% parry).

We agree it's a benefit.

Having the 6% extra parry is more useful outside of SB than inside,

Of course it's more useful outside SB than inside. It's not Blizzard's job to always give us the strongest ability possible though. In fact, as our defensive abilities get stronger, the threats against us have to get stronger as well. 6% extra parry on Shield Block isn't huge by any stretch, but nor does it suck, and arguably we shouldn't be getting something all that much stronger.

Emmerich
05-06-2011, 01:15 PM
I LIKE that it's not any stronger. As it is, if the tier gear is itemized about the same as off pieces I can go for it and get a decent benefit. If there are off pieces that are itemized better (enough) compared to tier pieces then I go for them and stick to the 2 pc bonus. This gives me interesting decisions to make and the ability to plan my gear. Heck, I'll go farther - I bet that we find that bonus worth it for some bosses (SB to be used generally on C/D, primarily physical damage) and not worth it for others (tendency to save SB for "key" moments; more of the damage is non-physical and/or lack of physical damage occurring at points where SB is needed).

All of this seems like a good thing to me, and all of it would disappear if the 4 pc was TOO good. Take it from an old feral druid who experienced the 2 pc T4 bonus all the way THROUGH T6 - overtuned tier piece bonuses are DEFINITELY a double edged sword!

gailair
05-13-2011, 04:57 AM
Seems the devs heard all the griping:

Original:
Item - Warrior T12 Protection 4P Bonus (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/99242/item-warrior-t12-protection-4p-bonus/) - Your parry chance is increased by 6% while Shield Block is active.

New, but is it improved?
Protection Warrior 4-Piece: The bonus to parry from Shield Wall now begins when Shield Wall wears off, instead of lasting while Shield Wall is active.

swelt
05-13-2011, 05:27 AM
Not clear what it means. Is it a typo that they've said shield wall rather than shield block? If so, it doesn't match what's on the PTR and would presumably be a lot more than 6%. I think they'd have a tough time putting a parry bonus after shield wall given the option to glyph it and change the cooldown, but a 6% parry bonus for a few seconds after shield block remains fairly unexciting.

I think the best bit about the blue posts is the knowledge that they are still working on the set bonuses.

Disruptor
05-13-2011, 05:46 AM
Sorry for trolling but this one goes on me. For all people instantly criticizing my opinion and my statement of T12 being a design fail - there you go. Blizz realized how paradox and illogical this set bonus was and redesigned it. Served.

And yes it will be a typo SB instead of SW.

Booi
05-13-2011, 06:03 AM
Blizz realized how paradox and illogical this set bonus was and redesigned it. Served.

You're right, it had nothing to do with balancing the value of the four set bonus, across four different abilities from four different classes.

In any case, if it maintains the 10 second duration on warriors, that's a really strong change - covering half the time which we are not on shield block. Interestingly enough, now you will actually have to decide if you are going to gear for unhittabiilty for those 10 seconds, or if you're happy with 6% direct hits while shield block or its proc are not up.

Furthermore, if you are unhittable without the 6%, the 6% block is actually wasted now :)

Personally, I think I'll assume no windwalk proc, and gear 96.4% unhittability. Then I remain unhittable 67% of the time. But I'm not wasting 700 mastery rating 33% of the time.

EDIT: Unless they actually moved it to shield wall - to minimize the above concern.

Bigbad
05-13-2011, 06:50 AM
Pretty sure they will put it on shieldblock and its just a typo, else they would have added a different value to shieldwall. 6% on a 2 min cd is too low compared to other tank 4set bonusses.

96,4% unhittable + 4set looks like a real nice setup. Will get the additional 700 mastery rating regardless if its possible, just to counter some possible spikes and the crit block will be decent when unhittable.

kopcap
05-13-2011, 07:16 AM
It may not be a typo, perhaps they are normalizing the CDs.

Also, hows 33% of the time it would be wasted? Are they abolishing crit block or something? It still carried great returns the last time I looked at it.

Artifice
05-13-2011, 07:29 AM
Given that the DK version comes into effect when DRW is on cd (which is a 90 sec cd) I think we can safely assume one of the following.

1) The bonus will have a fixed duration equal to the length of original buff that it was tied to.

or

2) The bonus is about to be nerfed to maintain the same overall level of effectiveness (so 3% parry for 2/3 uptime)

Since right now the DK 4pc bonus is pretty insane without further balancing.

Booi
05-13-2011, 08:12 AM
It may not be a typo, perhaps they are normalizing the CDs.

Also, hows 33% of the time it would be wasted? Are they abolishing crit block or something? It still carried great returns the last time I looked at it.

You only get the block converted to critical block while shield block is active.

Easily demonstrable by simply mousing over your shield block buff at different avoidance levels. The buff grants different critical block levels.

Reev
05-13-2011, 09:30 AM
You only get the block converted to critical block while shield block is active.

Easily demonstrable by simply mousing over your shield block buff at different avoidance levels. The buff grants different critical block levels.

He's referring to if you're statically hit capped and you get the 6% parry after shield block, the mastery above and beyond 102.4% table coverage will still be granting you critical block. It won't grant any more than it was already doing, but the mastery beyond the soft cap doesn't become useless because you got the 6% extra dodge, just less effective.

Either way, you'd still want to get statically unhittable, for the times when those buffs aren't up. The 6% extra mastery critical block doesn't go away when you get the 6% extra dodge, and it remains valuable for the Shield Block time period and the "no buff" time period.

Again, this is assuming that this is still tied to Shield Block and not Shield Wall, and I think both are reasonably likely.

Disruptor
05-14-2011, 11:46 AM
The shield block value bonus from Eternal Earthsiege Diamond has been increased to 3%, up from 1%.
Omfg. Most people do not understand how strong this meta already is (including "wannabe" world top guild tanks) and they buff it to 300%. Hardcap mastery -> 66% less dmg and this is even more paradox to the 6% parry from T12. They will nerf Warrior mastery into the ground. Let's see when they will realize that.

Martie
05-14-2011, 11:54 AM
Blizzard: "Let's give warriors 6% parry!"
Disruptor: "Oh my god, they are nerfing warrior mastery!"

Blizzard: "Let's make the block meta a bit stronger."
Disruptor: "Oh my god, they are nerfing warrior mastery!"

Next up, Blizzard is gonna release Diablo 3 (and Disruptor will claim it's a warrior mastery nerf.)

Disruptor
05-14-2011, 12:00 PM
I have never claimed that they already nerfed anything. By giving us more avoidance they simply decrease the importance of mastery. And by increasing the meta they make the already strongest mitigation by far with the best scaling even more stronger. They have not yet realized how ridic strong it will be. You will see what I am talking about. They will nerf warrior mastery pretty hard.

Bovinity
05-14-2011, 12:02 PM
By giving us more avoidance they decrease the importance of mastery. And by increasing the meta they make the already strongest mitigation by far with the best scaling even more stronger.

So...they decrease the importance of mastery but they're making it even stronger? Therefore it will be nerfed?

Disruptor
05-14-2011, 12:05 PM
So...they decrease the importance of mastery but they're making it even stronger? Therefore it will be nerfed?

I never used that reasoning. I do not understand why they increase avoidance but you could explain/legitimatize it with the new ICC/SW-like debuff they ll implement.
Our mastery is already the strongest ingame. This will increase its value by a good gap. Giving prot paladins an already flat 43% dmg decrease and warriors in firelands a medium-high uptime of 66% dmg decrease is too strong compared to DK/Feral (and even protpaladin).

EDIT:
We have the first hint for nerfing block mastery. Palas will only block 33% dmg instead of 43%. Let's see what Warriors will get.

SageoftheTimes
05-14-2011, 12:07 PM
Wait, what? They give avoidance to then nerf it....brainhurt.

Also, a buff to tank damage is probably not too much of a problem, considering you'll only have 1-2 of them. If any abnormal increase is seen, they could just increase boss HP slightly to compensate.

Illidra
05-14-2011, 01:02 PM
The shield block value bonus from Eternal Earthsiege Diamond has been increased to 3%, up from 1%.

Omfg. Most people do not understand how strong this meta already is (including "wannabe" world top guild tanks) and they buff it to 300%. Hardcap mastery -> 66% less dmg and this is even more paradox to the 6% parry from T12. They will nerf Warrior mastery into the ground. Let's see when they will realize that.


Sorry for trolling but this one goes on me. For all people instantly criticizing my opinion and my statement of T12 being a design fail - there you go. Blizz realized how paradox and illogical this set bonus was and redesigned it. Served.

it's not a design FAIL, it's design re-optimization.

6% parry can't be a bad thing. the parry pushes you to mastery hard cap? great reforge that spare mastery into damage stats. dont need more damage? well then your boss kill just got shorter.


I have never claimed that they already nerfed anything. By giving us more avoidance they simply decrease the importance of mastery. And by increasing the meta they make the already strongest mitigation by far with the best scaling even more stronger. They have not yet realized how ridic strong it will be. You will see what I am talking about. They will nerf warrior mastery pretty hard.

so they're decreasing the importance of mastery? while making it stronger with the meta change? so by making it 'OP' as you phrase it, they make it less important.

dude your logic is, to be blunt, fucking ridiculous.

think before you type.


stop trolling.

and if you arent trolling then stop being ignorant and preaching false logic.

also please google the definition of paradox, parry = good mastery = good, more parry = more crit block = good, crit block capped = mastery reforge into damage stats = good, no paradox there.

Booi
05-14-2011, 08:28 PM
He's referring to if you're statically hit capped and you get the 6% parry after shield block, the mastery above and beyond 102.4% table coverage will still be granting you critical block. It won't grant any more than it was already doing, but the mastery beyond the soft cap doesn't become useless because you got the 6% extra dodge, just less effective.

Sorry for taking a step back, but I thought I should point out that this is not the case.

Excess block is only converted to critical block while shield block is active.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2565

Reev
05-14-2011, 09:59 PM
Sorry for taking a step back, but I thought I should point out that this is not the case.

Excess block is only converted to critical block while shield block is active.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2565

Shield Block will grant you extra crit block during shield block, but not during the 6% parry. During the 6% parry, mastery will still be granting you the critical block it always grants you. Mastery beyond the 102.4% won't grant you more crit block than it did before the 6% extra parry, but it's still giving you crit block, making it not useless, just not as strong as it is when the combat table wasn't covered without it.

If you read closely what I said there, I wasn't suggesting that the 6% parry pushes 6% more crit block onto the table when Shield Block isn't active.

Booi
05-15-2011, 09:29 AM
Sorry, I see what you're saying now.

Good call.

Katzazi
05-17-2011, 03:16 AM
My initial concern with the setbonus is not addressed by the change - if all it get even worse. SB just does too much. Sure it's easy to just take the buff of the set bonus and be happy with it. It will work fine and it's probably what we will do in most cases and I'm relatively fine with it. I think they realized that the former implementation was something like build-in CD-stacking which they probably want to not have.

Anyway, sometimes a player want to optimize all of the tools they have - like for example CD stacking or timing after each other. If a warrior with t12 tries to to this, it will be very hard to find the best moment, since the first few seconds will deal with magic dmg, meanwhile and shortly after the warrior is unhittable and crit block chance is higher, after that she has a little bit higher chance to avoid dmg, maybe so that she stays unhittable and a higher chance to increase crit blocks because of HtL (which again may cover the remaining 10s at least partly but will not be up for the next SB). If the boss has at least two dangerous abilities that you cannot cover with big CDs it will be quite hard to find the optimal time for SB (while it's easy to find a good moment for SB - it will cover most stuff somehow).


The new implementation also has a weird effect on the combination of SB and HtL. While SB is up, HtL would probably have the biggest effect (at least for realistic mastery values). But the higher parry chance kicks in after SB ends. So the highest chances for HtL will be around the middle of the time when SB is down (or shortly before it is off CD again).

All this is less of a problem for the other tank-classes. Their abilities only have one effect, they don't have stuff that procs from the avoidance and the time in between is longer - they will have comparable long times that will not be covered by the use of the CD.

I'm not sure, if all this will make warrior tanks a little bit more spiky dependent on the SB-"phase" they are in. If that is the case will probably depend on how high our mastery + avoid will be. They just announced that they don't want people to be able to cap mastery. But how near to the cap will we get? If it's quite close, those 6% parry may be something to let us close the gap (maybe together with an on-use-avoidance-trinket) to unhittable again. Which would be huge.

On the other hand the remark about not letting people be able to mastery-cap was addressed to paladins. And they get double the amount. So either the set-bonus will be their unhittable gap closing thing (like our original SB) or we will be quite far away and 6% parry will be quit less attractive (and tanking stats much lower than today which I don't think they will do). So if 12% parry will be enough to close the unhittable-gap for paladins, the setbonus get's even weirder (and much more attractive) for them: While divine protection is up, they get 20% less dmg flat. When it drops, they will have even higher ensured DR against melee hits (while the combination of DP+block is higher, but you cannot ensure the block while DP is up).


I think it would be a much better implementation to free the bonus from the ability-usage, so that it will be just a proc. Sure, it will be less appreciated than an on-use-effect. But it would remove some contra-intuitive effects. Maybe they would have to increase the effect somehow.

Reev
05-17-2011, 06:53 AM
My initial concern with the setbonus is not addressed by the change - if all it get even worse. SB just does too much. Sure it's easy to just take the buff of the set bonus and be happy with it. It will work fine and it's probably what we will do in most cases and I'm relatively fine with it. I think they realized that the former implementation was something like build-in CD-stacking which they probably want to not have.

Anyway, sometimes a player want to optimize all of the tools they have - like for example CD stacking or timing after each other. If a warrior with t12 tries to to this, it will be very hard to find the best moment, since the first few seconds will deal with magic dmg, meanwhile and shortly after the warrior is unhittable and crit block chance is higher, after that she has a little bit higher chance to avoid dmg, maybe so that she stays unhittable and a higher chance to increase crit blocks because of HtL (which again may cover the remaining 10s at least partly but will not be up for the next SB). If the boss has at least two dangerous abilities that you cannot cover with big CDs it will be quite hard to find the optimal time for SB (while it's easy to find a good moment for SB - it will cover most stuff somehow).


The new implementation also has a weird effect on the combination of SB and HtL. While SB is up, HtL would probably have the biggest effect (at least for realistic mastery values). But the higher parry chance kicks in after SB ends. So the highest chances for HtL will be around the middle of the time when SB is down (or shortly before it is off CD again).

All this is less of a problem for the other tank-classes. Their abilities only have one effect, they don't have stuff that procs from the avoidance and the time in between is longer - they will have comparable long times that will not be covered by the use of the CD.

I'm not sure, if all this will make warrior tanks a little bit more spiky dependent on the SB-"phase" they are in. If that is the case will probably depend on how high our mastery + avoid will be. They just announced that they don't want people to be able to cap mastery. But how near to the cap will we get? If it's quite close, those 6% parry may be something to let us close the gap (maybe together with an on-use-avoidance-trinket) to unhittable again. Which would be huge.

On the other hand the remark about not letting people be able to mastery-cap was addressed to paladins. And they get double the amount. So either the set-bonus will be their unhittable gap closing thing (like our original SB) or we will be quite far away and 6% parry will be quit less attractive (and tanking stats much lower than today which I don't think they will do). So if 12% parry will be enough to close the unhittable-gap for paladins, the setbonus get's even weirder (and much more attractive) for them: While divine protection is up, they get 20% less dmg flat. When it drops, they will have even higher ensured DR against melee hits (while the combination of DP+block is higher, but you cannot ensure the block while DP is up).


I think it would be a much better implementation to free the bonus from the ability-usage, so that it will be just a proc. Sure, it will be less appreciated than an on-use-effect. But it would remove some contra-intuitive effects. Maybe they would have to increase the effect somehow.

I think you're making this more complicated than it is. Shield Block still has 2 effects. Magic damage reduction and physical damage reduction. The parry part doesn't change the way it handled physical damage before. It just tacks an additional 10 seconds of reduced physical damage onto the end of the original effect. If the magic is more likely to kill you, you use it then. If the physical is more likely to kill you, you use it then. You're not going to change how you use chained cooldowns because of this, except that you may be able to chain them longer.

swelt
05-17-2011, 07:04 AM
I think you're making this more complicated than it is. Shield Block still has 2 effects. Magic damage reduction and physical damage reduction. The parry part doesn't change the way it handled physical damage before. It just tacks an additional 10 seconds of reduced physical damage onto the end of the original effect. If the magic is more likely to kill you, you use it then. If the physical is more likely to kill you, you use it then. You're not going to change how you use chained cooldowns because of this, except that you may be able to chain them longer.
I agree, and would go on to say that 10 seconds of 6% parry is pretty trivial. Sure, on average it will make you take less damage, but it's unlikely that you will ever thing "I must wear my 4pc bonus for this fight, that 6% parry sure will save the day". That's my remaining objection to this set bonus - it's boring and it will not make a significant difference to anything. Whether or not that's a bad thing in itself is certainly open to debate. In the past, certain set bonuses have been used as a means to gate content (X hardmode is much easier with Y set bonus, e.g. chimeron becomes easier with 4pc t11). Having a tank set bonus which is largely ignorable may actually be a good thing. Just a boring good thing...

Katzazi
05-17-2011, 02:15 PM
6% parry for themselve is not much. But if we can reach unhittable (or get very close) with them (for example with trinket-usage) it can make a big difference. It depends how high our other survival values will be.