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View Full Version : Warrior Thoughts on change to Retaliation, Recklessness, Shield Wall stance requirements.



Bung
05-03-2011, 04:26 AM
Retaliation, Recklessness and Shield Wall no longer have stance requirements.


Sounds pretty awesome to me!

For warrior tanks popping recklessness and retaliation for a pull....talk about major snap aggro!

For Fury warriors if you already had a weapon swapping macro/stance dance to pop shield wall during certain encounters (shame on you if you don't!) this will save all of your rage.

Pretty freaking cool. I don't know how Retaliation will help a fury warrior...but mabey popping shield wall taunt and retaliation when the tanks die and a boss is at 1%?

Your thoughts.....

Booi
05-03-2011, 05:42 AM
All the benefits that are there, I can't help but think "more buttons for an already cluttered bar"

Reev
05-03-2011, 06:07 AM
I have a feeling that they will share a cooldown, so that it's shield wall OR retaliation OR recklessness. I don't see myself as likely to use Retal or Reck except under very situational circumstances as prot, but I suppose it could happen, and it would be a benefit to be sure.

Raysere
05-03-2011, 06:18 AM
You currently can't pop any of the three while the buff from another is active. Reck still increases damage taken by 20% and was recently changed to be a 12 second duration effect rather than the charge-based one it was in the past, limiting it's usefulness for threat generation further unless you wish to be pretty reckless (yes, I know...). Shield Wall requires a shield to activate and the effect is removed when you unequip a shield. Retaliation should prove handy for snap aggro on melee packs.

Reev
05-03-2011, 06:22 AM
You currently can't pop any of the three while the buff from another is active. Reck still increases damage taken by 20% and was recently changed to be a 12 second duration effect rather than the charge-based one it was in the past, limiting it's usefulness for threat generation further unless you wish to be pretty reckless (yes, I know...). Shield Wall requires a shield to activate and the effect is removed when you unequip a shield. Retaliation should prove handy for snap aggro on melee packs.

If you can use them in succession and they don't share cooldowns, this could be very nice. Recklessness would be quite handy for the times the other tank has the boss and you want to get in a bit of dps.

kopcap
05-03-2011, 06:30 AM
Reck still increases damage taken by 20% and was recently changed to be a 12 second duration effect rather than the charge-based one it was in the past, limiting it's usefulness for threat generation further unless you wish to be pretty reckless (yes, I know...).What do you mean? Its been buffed, you can now fit your entire opener under its effect and still have almost a GCD left.

Tengenstein
05-03-2011, 06:48 AM
YAY! more buttons! anyone know how to dual weild keyboards?

Booi
05-03-2011, 07:24 AM
1 - shockwave/concussion blow cast sequence
shift 1 - potion
2 - rend
shift 2 - battle shout
3 - demo shout
shift 3 - intimidating shout
4 - thunderclap
shift 4 - piercing howl when applicable
5 - shield block
shift 5 - mount
shift 6 - vigilance
Q - charge/pummel main target
shift Q - intercept
E - devastate w/hs, cleave, none (depending on action page)
shift E - devastates without hs, cleave (regardless of action page)
R - revenge w/hs, cleave, none (depending on action page) (colossus smash if battle)
shift R - revenge without hs, cleave (regardless of action page) (colossus smash if battle)
F - shield slam w/hs, cleave, none (depending on action page)
shift F - shield slam without hs, cleave (regardless of action page)
G - escape artist
shift G - trinket
T - pummels focus if exists, else just pummel
Y - victory rush/HS
Z - taunt
X - berserker rage
shift X - disarm
C - spell reflect
shift C - heroic throw (mouseover if exists, else just target)
V - intervene
shift V - enraged regeneration
B - super taunt... what the truck is this really called. why have i forgotten. damn you freya
mouse 1 - heroic leap
mouse 2 - mouse over taunt
mouse 3 - last stand
shift mouse 3 - shield wall
ctrl mouse 3 - rallying cry
mouse wheel up - HS
mouse wheel down - Cleave
` - puts target on focus
ctrl Q - HS dump action page
ctrl F - Cleave dump action page
shift Y - no dumb action page

and keybinds for all raid markers.

open to suggestions but it is looking like...
shift Z, 6, H (shift z used to be mocking blow - and i still hit it sometimes :P)
H might be okay.
H and shift H... lalala

Anyone running any gimmicks to streamline keybinds a bit?
39 keybinds not counting action pages/raid targets.

Insahnity
05-03-2011, 07:27 AM
I don't know if y'all read GC's latest blog on abilities. He specifically mentions that he is targeting cluttered bars. While I applaud the move and would definitely use it, this goes against what he just specifically said is the direction they are moving towards for all classes. Warriors already have a lot of abilities (I would not say they are cluttered, but it does take a lot more work than the "4 core abilities" in the ele shaman example given). So this means they will give this to us, but prune other stuff. Take Pummel replacing Shield Bash, pretty small, but other consolidations may not be so small.

Booi
05-03-2011, 07:32 AM
Give us heroic leap, nerf intercept but still leave it there.
Just keep your heroic leap blizzard :)

Raysere
05-03-2011, 07:39 AM
What do you mean? Its been buffed, you can now fit your entire opener under its effect and still have almost a GCD left.

While taking 20% more damage which is totally and utterly contrary to your primary responsibility.

This change is most likely primarily to provide Arms access to reck without clumsily stance dancing just to do so.

kopcap
05-03-2011, 07:43 AM
.. Mind telling us when was the last time you died during the first 9 seconds of a pull while you are completely and utterly covered by a shield block?

Raysere
05-03-2011, 07:44 AM
.. Mind telling us when was the last time you died during the first 9 seconds of a pull while you are completely and utterly covered by a shield block?

You shouldn't even be taking the risk. It's not worth it.

kopcap
05-03-2011, 07:46 AM
Dude. Your wrong. If you are not, please get better healers.

Reev
05-03-2011, 07:48 AM
1 - shockwave/concussion blow cast sequence
shift 1 - potion
2 - rend
shift 2 - battle shout
3 - demo shout
shift 3 - intimidating shout
4 - thunderclap
shift 4 - piercing howl when applicable
5 - shield block
shift 5 - mount
shift 6 - vigilance
Q - charge/pummel main target
shift Q - intercept
E - devastate w/hs, cleave, none (depending on action page)
shift E - devastates without hs, cleave (regardless of action page)
R - revenge w/hs, cleave, none (depending on action page) (colossus smash if battle)
shift R - revenge without hs, cleave (regardless of action page) (colossus smash if battle)
F - shield slam w/hs, cleave, none (depending on action page)
shift F - shield slam without hs, cleave (regardless of action page)
G - escape artist
shift G - trinket
T - pummels focus if exists, else just pummel
Y - victory rush/HS
Z - taunt
X - berserker rage
shift X - disarm
C - spell reflect
shift C - heroic throw (mouseover if exists, else just target)
V - intervene
shift V - enraged regeneration
B - super taunt... what the truck is this really called. why have i forgotten. damn you freya
mouse 1 - heroic leap
mouse 2 - mouse over taunt
mouse 3 - last stand
shift mouse 3 - shield wall
ctrl mouse 3 - rallying cry
mouse wheel up - HS
mouse wheel down - Cleave
` - puts target on focus
ctrl Q - HS dump action page
ctrl F - Cleave dump action page
shift Y - no dumb action page

and keybinds for all raid markers.

open to suggestions but it is looking like...
shift Z, 6, H (shift z used to be mocking blow - and i still hit it sometimes :P)
H might be okay.
H and shift H... lalala

Anyone running any gimmicks to streamline keybinds a bit?
39 keybinds not counting action pages/raid targets.

No way in hell I'd bind all of that. You don't need to bind half of what you have up there. Binds are for keys you need to get at immediately in a twitchy sort of manner. For things like Demo Shout which you use once per 45 seconds, clicking it is perfectly fine, IMO. My action bars feel just fine to me.

Insahnity
05-03-2011, 07:49 AM
While taking 20% more damage which is totally and utterly contrary to your primary responsibility.

This change is most likely primarily to provide Arms access to reck without clumsily stance dancing just to do so.

Highly situational, but as was pointed out earlier, if you have a moment where you are DPSing but off the boss while the other tank has aggro, it could work, you aren't expected to have aggro so the increased damage is moot, or perhaps you are on caster adds with long interruptible/spell-reflectable spells and can afford 3 special attacks without taking damage.

Bears in the past frequently popped enrage (previously it used to incurr a significant armor/damage penalty) but pop barkskin to go with it. Similarly, one could pop recklessness + shield block (or a bigger CD). I agree with you, not my cup of tea, but yeah it's workable.

klausi
05-03-2011, 07:50 AM
Anyone running any gimmicks to streamline keybinds a bit?
I stopped using action page swaps and upped my modifier. Looks like you're only using one modifier (shift).. what's about ctrl/capslock/alt?

I'm using 1 2 3 4 5 q e r t y f g c v mouse1 mouse2 mousewheelup mousewheeldown + shift and ctrl for 95% of my abilities and capslock as modifier for the rest and moving with wasd. You macroed hs/cleave to a lot of abilities while you're also using your mousewheel to spam them. I just stick to my wheel and keep my keyboard save from the pressure :)

Ontopic: Not having to hassle around with stance dancing while counting down for the pull is a great relief. But i really doubt they'll allow popping all of them together, the internal cooldown will remain.

@Reev (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?35596-Reev)
Clicking things i use frequently in fight don't feel very smooth to me. I use demoshout when it fits in like running away from a explosion (glaciate anyone?) and can't see any benefits in distangling my fingers in disadvantage of my reaction time. And for demoshout, it only applies half of the time when it really have to... eye-brain-finger coordination after realising it didn't apply would take me a while. Having about 40ish binds for infight situation isn't easy to master but once you get used to them it's a huge step up when anything goes wrong and your heart is running at 200 bpm.

Reev
05-03-2011, 07:56 AM
I use ` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Q E and 3 mouse buttons as keybinds. Everything else is quite clickable because it's not anything I have to spam or reach super quickly.

` - Push to Talk
1 - Warbringer macro
2 - Revenge
3 - Devastate
4 - Shield Slam
5 - Heroic Strike
6 - Taunt
7 - Thunderclap
8 - Pummel
9 - Rend
0 - Shockwave
Q - Strafe Left
E - Strafe Right
Mouse button 3 - Back up
Mouse button 4 - Autorun
Mouse Button 5 - Cleave

Everything else is clickable on bars. I could probably stand to put Concussion Blow on a keybind somewhere, but nothing else really needs to be bound, imo.

Aggathon
05-03-2011, 07:58 AM
if only they'd remove the requirement for shattering throw, /le sigh

Guess I'll post my bindings too. I actually have a lot of stuff bound. I still haven't found a good way to do cleave/HS, honestly I have one on 2 (if it's more AoE, then I put cleave, there, if it's single target, put HS there) and put the other on like 9 or something and keep my bars unlocked and move them into position as necessary. I can't hit 9 fast, so usually I end up just clicking that if I need it. I tried the mwup/mwdown stuff for cleave/HS, but I just move the zoom on my camera around way too much, I can't do that.

For stance dancing:
Shift a = battle stance
sheft s = d stance
sheft d = zerker stance
This way I can quickly and easily switch between stances without even taking my fingers off the WASD keys. It's really handy and has worked great for me.

Others:
1 - Devastate
2 - HS or Cleave
3 - Revenge
4 - Shield Slam
5 - Rend
6 - Shield Block
7 - Zerker Rage
Shift 1 - Charge
Shift 2 - Battle Shout or Commanding Shout, the other gets bound to Z
Shift 3 - Demo Shout
Shift 4 - PH if I'm PH spec, I think it's intimidating shout otherwise
Shift 5 - Challenging Shout, usually click this one though for some reason
Ctrl + E = Heroic Throw
Ctrl + F = Charge + Heroic Throw macro
F1 = last stand
Q = trinket
E = Shockwave
F = Thudnerclap
G = Focus
M5 = Pummel
M4 = Heroic Leap
Things I click:
Shield Wall
Intervene
Healthstone

Edit: oh ya, I have taunt bound to caps lock and enraged regen bound to `

Booi
05-03-2011, 08:00 AM
I stopped using action page swaps and upped my modifier. Looks like you're only using one modifier (shift).. what's about ctrl/capslock/alt?

Just a quick search for a [mod:caps lock] macro syntax came up with a methodology that required editing a windows registry entry. Am i missing the elegant solution?

Insahnity
05-03-2011, 08:01 AM
if only they'd remove the requirement for shattering throw, /le sigh

Amen brother. I hate that. At the least, give it to both arms and fury (i,e. both battle and berserker stance).

truculent
05-03-2011, 08:03 AM
I have a feeling that they will share a cooldown, so that it's shield wall OR retaliation OR recklessness. I don't see myself as likely to use Retal or Reck except under very situational circumstances as prot, but I suppose it could happen, and it would be a benefit to be sure.

that would suck and defeat the purpose. i cant see retaliation on a cd with shield wall..

Reev
05-03-2011, 08:05 AM
that would suck and defeat the purpose. i cant see retaliation on a cd with shield wall..

It used to be on the same cooldown. Letting warriors have all 3 cooldowns available in any stance seems a bit strong to me is all. Warriors already have a ton of cooldowns available to them.

Geach
05-03-2011, 08:09 AM
Wasn't something said about taking out stance dancing a while back? Something about making stances mean something? I like the idea of having more snap aggro. It just seems the reasons to stance dance are dwindling. In fact I can only reason I can come up with to stance dance is to use Shattering Throw.

swelt
05-03-2011, 08:10 AM
@Booi: use your function keys? F1-5 at least are usable, ideal for cooldowns that you don't want to hit by accident. Get a mouse with more buttons (a couple of extra thumb buttons makes a big difference).

But in general I had the same thought - too many buttons. What I wonder most is whether the days of stances are numbered, or at least "stance-limited abilities". They made a design decision when they made DKs not to have "x ability requires y stance", if they are trying to consolidate and simplify abilities then having certain abilities only usable in certain stances seems rather outmoded. Not something we'll see til an expansion I expect though...

truculent
05-03-2011, 08:13 AM
It used to be on the same cooldown. Letting warriors have all 3 cooldowns available in any stance seems a bit strong to me is all. Warriors already have a ton of cooldowns available to them.


but thats why we had to stance dance ;)


Just saying that if offencive and defencive abilities share a cd, that seems a bit over kill. It seems far more practical to not allow arms and fury to equip shields. after all, this seems like another pvp solution ...

kopcap
05-03-2011, 08:26 AM
I am in between Reev and Booi. I like to press thinkgs like CB, Demo Shout and Heroic Leap. But I made a decision from the very start that I won't use any in combat macros apart from the Warbringer. And I only use one spell on a modifier. But then I don't pvp at all so take it for what its worth :)

Aggathon
05-03-2011, 08:27 AM
Ya booi, two things. First, you can bind things to caps+something just straight up I think. You don't need any special macros or anything to do that. The mod syntax in macros is just to have an all in 1 macro, like to do heroic strike but if you press shift to cleave instead or something (I think). Most bar addons have a "mod" button too for bars so that if you press caps then the bar flips to a different bar to press things with.

Booi
05-03-2011, 08:37 AM
Thanks, agg.

livion
05-03-2011, 09:28 AM
Speaking for Deftanks, those changes should not make too much of a difference.

Normally, you're in defensive stance anyways, allowing to use shield wall.

When necessary, you can always pop shield block (causing enemies to be unable to crit you, due to the magical 102,4%), go to zerker stance, cast recklessness, and be back in deffstance in no-time. If you have the time, you can place a colossus smash before going back to defensive stance. The next Shieldslam *will* look awesome. promised. : )

Retaliation on the other hand is not all that good for tanks anyways, because we're using one handed weapons. Just tried it on Zanzils Zombies in Zul'Gurub. Wearing two strengh-trinkets, titanic strengh-flask, + 90 strengh bufffood as a tank, the 20 charges from retaliation did shortly under 80000 damage. Hardly worth the stance dancing, and extremely weak for a 5-minute cooldown.

In my opinion, these changes are a "minor buff", if anything, due to overloaded action bars.

Greetings, livion

Loganisis
05-03-2011, 09:34 AM
Okay, first, this really is a Tank/Arms boon, since Shattering Throw isn't included.

Retaliation has very little value to Fury but not stance-dancing for Reck has value to Arms.

And tanks now can use Retaliation and Recklessness without stance dancing. <--- Big Winners

Not sure what the value of not having a stance requirement is for Shield Wall is. Maybe for Arms running a macro to swap between a 2-Hander and a 1Hander and Shield? If someone can shed more light on this one?

Dunno - Win for Tanks, nice for Arms, meh for Fury is what it seems to me.

Booi
05-03-2011, 09:36 AM
Not sure what the value of not having a stance requirement is for Shield Wall is. Maybe for Arms running a macro to swap between a 2-Hander and a 1Hander and Shield? If someone can shed more light on this one?

Independent of the pvp implications, it is a really solid change for electrocute-style mechanics in PvE or for wrack-type debuffs from sinestra. They sword and board for two seconds, keep dpsing, and lose no rage or gcds on the stance switch.

Loganisis
05-03-2011, 09:39 AM
Independent of the pvp implications, it is a really solid change for electrocute-style mechanics in PvE or for wrack-type debuffs from sinestra. They sword and board for two seconds, keep dpsing, and lose no rage or gcds on the stance switch.

So there is a good swap wep macro out there? I can see the value now, but only if there's a quick and effective way to switch. Of course I don't know macros well, so maybe I've missed it when I searched. :-/

Booi
05-03-2011, 09:39 AM
When necessary, you can always pop shield block (causing enemies to be unable to crit you, due to the magical 102,4%)

Crit is on the table before blocks and normal hits. We pushed crushing blows off the table, but crits had to be removed.

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Crit
Block
Crushing
Hit

kopcap
05-03-2011, 09:43 AM
So there is a good swap wep macro out there?What do you mean? I just put equipment set icons on a bar and click them :)

Booi
05-03-2011, 09:46 AM
What do you mean? I just put equipment set icons on a bar and click them :)

kopcap is right, the in-game outfitter is much less clunky than any equipslot macro

1) make an outfit with everything disabled except the one hander and shield. call it iwanttolive
2)

/equipset iwanttolive
/cast shield wall

Loganisis
05-03-2011, 09:48 AM
What do you mean? I just put equipment set icons on a bar and click them :)

You can do that? O_O sheesh... you learn something new everyday

Aggathon
05-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Crit is on the table before blocks and normal hits. We pushed crushing blows off the table, but crits had to be removed.

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Crit
Block
Crushing
Hit

Incorrect, Crushing blows do not exist unless the mob is more than 4 levels higher than you, since bosses are always 3 levels higher, there are no longer crushing blows, and a blocked hit cannot be crit. Since you have to be in dstance to see the benefit from the anti-crit talent in prot, the only way to push crits off on the table is to hit shield block so that you either dodge, parry, miss, or block a hit, and subsequently you knock crits off the table.

Aggathon
05-03-2011, 10:14 AM
Probably a double post, but Re: PvP implications:

I think it's better to go d-stance when you have to shield wall in PvP anyways, lol. If you're putting on a shield in PvP, you're probably not gonna be doing a lot of burst.

But from a more pessimistic standpoint: I firmly believe that blizzard has put WoW PvP as more of a sideproject. I haven't had fun in PvP since early S5. And this is coming from someone that did BGs 'til he was blue in the face in Vanilla/TBC and got duelist in both S2 and S5 (each on different toons). Hell I rolled this character to PvP, now I won't touch PvP with a ten foot pole.

Booi
05-03-2011, 11:01 AM
Incorrect, Crushing blows do not exist unless the mob is more than 4 levels higher than you, since bosses are always 3 levels higher, there are no longer crushing blows, and a blocked hit cannot be crit. Since you have to be in dstance to see the benefit from the anti-crit talent in prot, the only way to push crits off on the table is to hit shield block so that you either dodge, parry, miss, or block a hit, and subsequently you knock crits off the table.

I am aware that crushing blows have been effectively removed, but still - the combat table has not changed from burning crusade, not fundamentally. Does anyone have a link to the old burning crusade combat table? For some reason I was certain that criticals were on the table before normal hits.

For example:
if you had 5% miss, 89% dodge, 0% parry, 0 defense.
You would take critical hits 6% of the time (no normal hits there is no room for them)

Likewise, I thought we had discovered back in burning crusade that block was after criticals on the table.
meaning that in the above situation, even if you had 50% block, you would never block, and still take criticals 6% of the time.

This was always considered a null case though, because no one could reach uncrushable without being uncrittable.

Before you crucify me.
Think back to burning crusade with no defense gear. When you hit shield block it gave you +75 or was it +100% chance to block???
In any case, you were still crittable because you did not have the required 490 defense even with shield block up. When tanks took critical hits in dungeons, people didn't say "keep shield block up" they said "get more defense rating". When they took crushings, people said "keep shield block up"

Airowird
05-03-2011, 12:58 PM
Nope, Crits come after Block, easily tested with +crit debuffs (from older content) & SB.

Aggathon
05-03-2011, 01:55 PM
I am aware that crushing blows have been effectively removed, but still - the combat table has not changed from burning crusade, not fundamentally. Does anyone have a link to the old burning crusade combat table? For some reason I was certain that criticals were on the table before normal hits.

For example:
if you had 5% miss, 89% dodge, 0% parry, 0 defense.
You would take critical hits 6% of the time (no normal hits there is no room for them)

Likewise, I thought we had discovered back in burning crusade that block was after criticals on the table.
meaning that in the above situation, even if you had 50% block, you would never block, and still take criticals 6% of the time.

This was always considered a null case though, because no one could reach uncrushable without being uncrittable.

Before you crucify me.
Think back to burning crusade with no defense gear. When you hit shield block it gave you +75 or was it +100% chance to block???
In any case, you were still crittable because you did not have the required 490 defense even with shield block up. When tanks took critical hits in dungeons, people didn't say "keep shield block up" they said "get more defense rating". When they took crushings, people said "keep shield block up"

Agree with wartotem. Back in TBC it was not 100% chance to block, hence the need to become uncrushable with just shield block up, which only had a 6 second cooldown and blocked 2 attacks. Your logic is kind of backwards because crushing blows just happened in TBC sometimes and the reason (as a warrior) was typically because you weren't keeping shield block up. If you didn't have the defense to be uncrittable, you also probably didn't have the stats to get actively uncrushable.

But ya, the easy proof was back in WotLK, fury warriors could tank stuff for small periods of time because back then shield block was 100% for 10 seconds, so fury warriors could tank without getting crit for 10 seconds.

Booi
05-03-2011, 03:37 PM
You guys are, of course, correct.
Found a level 85 mob, used shield block in battle stance.

I took 10 crits without shield block. It's up 33% of the time - I should have taken 5 on average with it up: I didn't.
Swing and a miss.

Tengenstein
05-04-2011, 01:45 AM
Did we ever establish if crits can be blocked? i remember posting a log where Putricide blocked an Incited Heroic strike bout 6 months back

Airowird
05-04-2011, 06:55 AM
It used to be true only if the crit was guaranteed (such as from the old Rogue's Cold Blood), but I don't know if they changed it since then and which abilities are +100% crit and which are guaranteed.

Booi
05-04-2011, 07:46 AM
Did we ever establish if crits can be blocked? i remember posting a log where Putricide blocked an Incited Heroic strike bout 6 months back

I remember this also, not that I can find the thread.

EDIT: found it (and you!)
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?71729-A-quick-and-dirty-Incite-model&p=472417#post472417

And logs from last night:
a non guaranteed crit getting blocked (verified reck wasn't up either). Still, maybe we knew that non-guaranteeds can be blocked. I don't really follow the dps side of things.


[21:54:39.622] Shha's Incite fades from Shha
[21:54:39.915] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter *17924*
[21:54:46.290] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 8700
[21:54:50.316] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 15791
[21:54:57.117] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 16682
[21:55:00.717] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 16849
[21:55:04.714] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter *24296* (B: 10413)

and guaranteed crits can miss and be blocked.

[19:32:06.328] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron *35486*
[19:32:06.593] Booi gains Incite from Booi
[19:32:08.233] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron Miss
[19:32:08.233] Booi's Incite fades from Booi
[19:32:10.057] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron Dodge
[19:32:13.851] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron Parry

[19:42:55.730] Booi Heroic Strike Blazing Bone Construct *16753*
[19:42:56.004] Booi gains Incite from Booi
[19:42:57.965] Booi's Incite fades from Booi
[19:42:58.101] Booi Heroic Strike Blazing Bone Construct *11830* (B: 5070)

All these logs are last night (4.1)

vazhkatsi
05-04-2011, 09:25 AM
Dude. Your wrong. If you are not, please get better healers.

your primary responsibility is survival, not threat, if you're having trouble with threat, get new dps.

Aggathon
05-04-2011, 09:30 AM
I'm pretty sure the mechanics of boss blocking are different than player blocking, but I could be wrong.

Booi
05-04-2011, 09:32 AM
I'm pretty sure the mechanics of boss blocking are different than player blocking, but I could be wrong.
I don't think you're wrong. I wasn't crit yesterday with shield block up - and not for lack of trying.

Knighterrant81
05-09-2011, 09:15 AM
Using recklessness while tanking seems pretty silly. I suppose you could make a cancelaura macro for when the trash starts beating your face in.

Prot's biggest gain from this is retaliaton. That will be hilarious. Fury getting shield wall will be nice and will save some rage. Same goes for arms. Arms getting recklessness seems odd but may push arms over fury for single target dps.

Interesting times.

Keybinds are an issue for prot. I don't think there are many specs out there that have to have as many things keybound as prot does. I use shift c for cleave and 5 for heroic strike. There are some abilities I don’t make as much use of as I should (shattering throw) because I haven't found a good keybind for them in three years of playing a warrior.

feralminded
05-09-2011, 12:21 PM
While I appreciate the idea of having retaliation in defensive stance ... honestly blizzard ... I *really* don't need any more damned buttons to push. Seriously ... STOP NOW.

Kojiyama
05-09-2011, 02:57 PM
Blocking for NPCs has always been a bit different than players--since they've historically had kinda strange block mechanics. (Although I guess they are somewhat similar now--at least closer than they used to be.)

As for the topic, I love the idea of being able to use Retaliation in Defensive Stance. That's pretty awesome. Keybinds are certainly a bit of an issue for Prot, but it's still a cool change. Recklessness sounds a little risky, but there are probably a few applications where it could work.

The main problem is not being tempted to swap a 2-hander when Retaliation is up! :)

Reev
05-09-2011, 05:37 PM
Blocking for NPCs has always been a bit different than players--since they've historically had kinda strange block mechanics. (Although I guess they are somewhat similar now--at least closer than they used to be.)

As for the topic, I love the idea of being able to use Retaliation in Defensive Stance. That's pretty awesome. Keybinds are certainly a bit of an issue for Prot, but it's still a cool change. Recklessness sounds a little risky, but there are probably a few applications where it could work.

The main problem is not being tempted to swap a 2-hander when Retaliation is up! :)

Why do you need to keybind Retaliation? It's a 5 minute cooldown, and it's not a skill needed on a hair trigger. You can very easily click it when you need it without sacrificing performance.

Kojiyama
05-09-2011, 05:40 PM
Indeed. For me, it would go on my non-essential click bar--but, even then, it is true that I've got a lot more icons on my Warrior's bars (and more bars, for that matter) than any of my other characters.

I don't mind too much, but I have a pretty streamlined keybind/bar setup that I've gotten used to over many years. I suspect for newer Warriors the whole keybinding thing might be a bit overwhelming. (That's why I never minded so much to have things being stance-locked when there was logical structures for it. Always seemed to make bar management easier rather than harder.)

Reev
05-09-2011, 05:44 PM
Indeed. For me, it would go on my non-essential click bar--but, even then, it is true that I've got a lot more icons on my Warrior's bars (and more bars, for that matter) than any of my other characters.

I don't mind too much, but I have a pretty streamlined keybind/bar setup that I've gotten used to over many years. I suspect for newer Warriors the whole keybinding thing might be a bit overwhelming. (That's why I never minded so much to have things being stance-locked when there was logical structures for it. Always seemed to make bar management easier rather than harder.)

Yeah I'd agree with that. I think stances would be a really cool concept if there weren't such a penalty for using them. I used to really enjoy stance dancing on my way from 1-60, tanking as arms and charge>zerker>whirlwind>defensive etc.

Tengenstein
05-09-2011, 06:06 PM
Indeed, Stance dancing gives the warrior class a little more depth, Really if the Tactical Mastery Talent was base it would would really open up the opportunity for fun

Dragaan
05-09-2011, 07:27 PM
Reck still increases damage taken by 20% and was recently changed to be a 12 second duration effect rather than the charge-based one it was in the past, limiting it's usefulness for threat generation further unless you wish to be pretty reckless (yes, I know...).

I've used reck on the pull for almost every boss for a long, long, loooong time. It's generally not much of a problem. You'll have shield block up as well, so it just feels as if ur tanking with shield block on cooldown.

Not sure why this such a big topic for people. We've always been able to use these abilities as tanks, you just had to swap stances for a quick sec to do so. This just makes things a bit more convenient, that's all.

Dannyl
05-09-2011, 09:55 PM
I've used reck on the pull for almost every boss for a long, long, loooong time. It's generally not much of a problem. You'll have shield block up as well, so it just feels as if ur tanking with shield block on cooldown.

Not sure why this such a big topic for people. We've always been able to use these abilities as tanks, you just had to swap stances for a quick sec to do so. This just makes things a bit more convenient, that's all.
This is what I was thinking as well, although I admit that not having to stance dance for reck brings a nice relief into my pre-pull routine; berserker - reck - defensive - shout - zerker - pre-pot - shield block - charge. The change will take out two "unnecessary" steps from that, which I welcome. I am curious though, with Retaliation being brought up, would it be more beneficial to replace reck with retaliation? I was always under the impression that reck out performs it.

kopcap
05-09-2011, 11:54 PM
They are totally different. One is mostly for single target offensive used on prepulls and offtank swaps, another one is for AOE aggro and now as a defensive CD.

Dannyl
05-10-2011, 01:40 AM
They are totally different. One is mostly for single target offensive used on prepulls and offtank swaps, another one is for AOE aggro and now as a defensive CD.
True but I was interested in how useful Retaliation would be in single target, if used as a pre-pull CD, in comparison to Reck? If you think about it, there aren't many places in the game where you would have a hard time picking up a pack of adds, at least not in this tier. Nefarian and Maloriak adds, nobody is dps'ing those until a predetermined time, at which point you would have gathered plenty of aggro already. Rend + TC would do nicely in those cases. The only example where dps might hit the adds pretty quickly are the whelps on Halfus, but even those are generally just killed as an after thought.

kopcap
05-10-2011, 01:57 AM
Retaliation helps a lot on Maloriak adds in black phase. Reck is no brainer better than retaliation in prepull situation.

Loganisis
05-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Has there been any mention as to why Shattering Throw isn't included? I would love to have this available in Zerker stance since Arms now gets Reck :D

feralminded
05-10-2011, 02:21 PM
Has there been any mention as to why Shattering Throw isn't included? I would love to have this available in Zerker stance since Arms now gets Reck :D

Hell I'd take it in def stance while you're at it. In the end blizzard just hates warriors ... such is our penance for being *the* tank for ~50% of the game's history. At least I don't have to shield block every 5 seconds like I back in the day.

Lugonn
05-20-2011, 05:00 AM
Will a prot warriors avoidance mean that retaliation won't be as effective?

I.e. Do you have to get hit for retaliation to "return" damage?

Garrek
06-05-2011, 01:04 PM
As far as bindings go, I'm probably a bit unique in that I have very long and dexterous fingers (played piano and guitar for years). However I find that even using WASD as my movement base I can very comfortably hit the 1-8 keys along with any number of modifiers (ctrl, shift, alt, ctrl+alt, ctrl+shift, shift+alt, and ctrl+shift+alt) and still be capable of moving at the same time except maybe for some incredibly long stretches (like c+s+a+8 while strafing q and turning d... doable, but very awkward). Out of habit I reserve alt as my self-cast modifier (I heal a bunch), but even so that gives me 32 buttons that are fairly easy for me to hit with muscle memory. Macroing to account for stance modifiers (i don't rely on bars paging between stances) or target bias (like vigilance on friendly mouseover, otherwise pummel) and there is very little that I designate outside of those buttons regardless of their use frequency.

Lesson learned: grow longer fingers...:rolleyes:

Or otherwise look into using more modifiers. For those that aren't fortunate enough to have long fingers, some people swear by the use of hardware like the Razer Nostromo (http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.221675100/parentCategoryID.35156900/categoryId.53491100)/Anasi (http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.220723800/parentCategoryID.35156900/categoryID.52829000/) and Naga (http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900/parentCategoryID.35208800/categoryId.54536600) which very effectively allows you to make use of your thumb(s) and otherwise have comfortable reach to an insane number of buttons + modifiers. The standard keyboard and mouse, as versatile as they are, aren't exactly designed first and foremost to be MMO game controllers. They're not bad, mind you... I don't use the fancy hardware I mentioned, but then again I've got excessively long fingers to make up for it.

gigglepants
06-06-2011, 11:25 AM
On the topic of warrior keybinds; if you use a Logitech or similar mouse with a few alternative keys, you can change these mouse keys(i.e. M4 & M5) to keyboard modifiers: Alt/Ctrl. Doing so provides 2 new sets of keybinds without contorting your left hand. At last count I had 34 keys bound.

I also recommend switch to ESDF instead of WASD. In addition to providing 4 more keys, its the natural position for typing and was not hard to get comfortable with.

I currently only use:

. QWERT
. ASDFG
. ZXCVB

Using this method I have easy access to 45 keybinds using Alt/CTRL modifiers on my mouse as M4&M5.

Arranging your keybinds on screen as a mock keyboard helps tremendously for learning binds and is a good visual for later swapping. This can be accomplished by using bartender and staggering the rows to form a keyboard type shape.

I also used the addon HelpMeKeyBind to learn faster, its out of date but still works.

No contorting your hand or fancy hardware with the exception of a mouse with a few extra keys, something you probably already have.

Hope this helps someone.

Beefius
06-06-2011, 07:19 PM
For the last 6 years (on & off) playing a warrior, DPS & Tank; I used a very vanilla key layout... just keys 1 to =, moving with mouse & WASD, clicking for any important abilities that werent on my primary bar and for half the abilities that were, since i would hover over buttons 1-6 with my left hand, and click buttons 7-=, particularly because some of our abilities arent on the GCD and/or need to be spammed often, whereas others are more situational. Recently being required to tank adds for Nefarian in BWD forced me to revise and evolve my keybinds because I found I wasnt able to react quick enough to do everything I needed to with my old key setup; this coincided with a complete UI overhaul to centralise the information I needed so I could monitor my health, incoming boss abilities and CDs without glancing all over the screen and possibly missing something.

Now my UI is laid out so that my buttons are in a 6 x 6 column from the bottom of the screen to just under my ice-hud health and rage bars encircling my character; buttons 7-= are the top row, which i rarely use but often click when i do; next row is buttons 1-6 which are my most frequently used abilities; next row is shift 1-6; and the row below that is Q, shift Q, 2x unbound buttons, shift E, E; below which is 2 rows of unbound buttons of very situational abilities that I usually have time to think about before I use them.

It looks something like this:

[ 7 ][ 8 ][ 9 ][ 0 ][ - ][ = ]
[ 1 ][ 2 ][ 3 ][ 4 ][ 5 ][ 6 ]
[s1 ][s2 ][s3 ][s4 ][s5 ][s6 ]
[ Q ][sQ ][ ][ ][sE ][ E ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
I still move with WASD and click unbound abilities, though I alternate to mouse running if I need to move and use a keybound ability at the same time, however I recently changed keys A & D to strafe rather than turn, as this allows me to strafe while kiting adds or bosses without involving my mouse, since this was a big problem as previously to strafe I needed to engage the use of two hands. I have thunderclap bound to the scrollwheel button so I can easily keep aggro while strafe-kiting adds, and my mouse has a side-button near the thumb which I have bound to heroic leap since it is highly convenient for both tanking and PvP to be able to quickly heroic leap somewhere.

Ive always hated stance-dancing; partly because of the rage-dumping aspect because it sucks getting into the correct stance to use an ability only to lack the rage to use it without wasting 1-2 more GCDs on a battle-shout or white attacks, and also because it feels clunky having to push several keys in succession over several seconds just to use 1 ability you couldnt use in the stance youd prefer to be in.

I think all kinds of warriors are going to enjoy the stance-removal on our 5-min CD abilities; arms can use recklessness without getting into fury and being unable to OP or rend, fury can use retaliation without getting into arms and being unable to raging blow or whirlwind, and prot can use recklessness & retaliation on boss-pulls to gain snap aggro; I currently PvP in fury and its annoying having this highly-useful ability I have to swap stances to trigger which causes me to use it less often than I might otherwise... I can also see using recklessness as a tank on every boss pull because its just a reality that DPS hate having to wait for a tank to build aggro every bit as much as tanks hate losing aggro the moment MD wears off, and frankly getting snap aggro has always been an area of weakness for warrior tanks due to dependance on rage & vengeance for threat generation as opposed to front-loading our pull rotation with high-threat abilities the way other tank classes can.

TLDR; The upcoming changes are good, I dont see them as being too situational or requiring extra keybinds to work in... I will have them on a bar somewhere but they wont be keybound since you can only use them once every 5-mins anyway. The vulnerability component of recklessness doesnt seem too dangerous for a tank to use (on a pull at least - I would advise against using it mid-fight in case it coincided with the kind of incoming damage-spike ability you would normally save a defensive CD for) -since the biggest threat at the start of a fight tends not to be boss damage but in losing aggro.