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.Human.
05-02-2011, 04:32 AM
Hey peeps ,

ill do my best to explain what my problem is. Since the Patch 4.1 has been gone live my Prot Pal is having Problems by holding the Aggro of almost every 16K DPS DD. I overviewed the Forums in case to find the Problem. At the Guide for Prot Pals its been said that Hit / Expertise Rating doesnt realy make sense anymore. I was looking on the Armory to find decent Pal Tanks with equal Gear to me. No Hit , and almost no Expertise Rating. Where is my Problem ? I mean without Hit i dont do any DMG to the Mobs, i have almost every Time Problems by holding the incoming Aggro of the DDs. I know that interrupting is now hitless, but when i throw my shield it always misses the actual Targets. O_o im playing the Pal quite a while now but the Guide doesnt make sense to me. I need 102.4 Combat Coverage to the Cap. Ive got now 86.04 with following Stats.

Dodge > 11,35%
Parry > 14,18%
Block > 55,52%
----------------------------------------

Hit > 0,72 %
Expertise Rating > 26 ( with Glyph )

Here my Prot Pal at the Armory >>> http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/arygos/guglhupf/simple

jere
05-02-2011, 05:02 AM
As a starting note, this type of post is less appropriate for the theory crafting section and probably better positioned in the help forum. The mods may move it.

You definitely don't need much hit or expertise for a paladin tank. One thing to look at is maybe your rotation. What rotation are you using? Try to give an example. In most cases that is the main problem.

As an aside (non threat related), you can do some reforging probably to get yourself a hair closer to 102.4%. For paladins, getting Parry-Dodge = 1% (roughly) is optimal given how diminishing returns affects both parry and dodge. Reforging to get closer to that will irk you out a little bit more avoidance (not a whole lot, but some)

.Human.
05-02-2011, 07:25 AM
Single Target Threat

Exorcism > Avengers Shield > Judgement > Crusader Strike > Hammer of Rightous > Vengaence

Multiple Target Threat

Big Daddy Bomb ( Engineer Skill ) > Shield > Consecration > Hammer of the Rightous > Vangaence + switch Target > Holy Wrath


This is my actual Starting rotation on the specific Target Situtation.
When i got enough aggro. Then ill build as much Holy Power as possible for using Vengaence and also to
interrupt as much as Possible.

Kazeyonoma
05-02-2011, 10:58 AM
moved to HALP!

aresius
05-02-2011, 11:34 AM
Well, aside something you might be doing wrong, it can always be something not on your part of the pull but from the dps themselves. High burst-no threat cooldown classes (like DKs and Fury warriors) should wait 2 global cooldowns before jumping at the boss. Your hunters should MD. if this isint happening its natural you may have some aggro issues for high dps(although im not geared at all and dont really start having single target aggro concerns single target till dps are over 25K).
At last, details like making sure you use wings/divine plea extra holy power to give a second punch early on while you dont have vengeance built up is something worth making sure your not overlooking. Remembering, alweys, aggro is a breeze mid-end battle, the only critical moment is the pull and first 20 seconds.

.Human.
05-02-2011, 11:38 AM
I often use Plea and Wings for the 20% mor dmg also the Holy Power with Vegeance. But with the low HIT Rating i almost miss the Target. That is why im confused about the Prot Pal Guide which says that Hit / Expertise doesnt make much sense. O_o

this one with 6% Meele Attack Speed : http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/arygos/guglhupf/talent/primary

and the other one : http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/arygos/guglhupf/talent/secondary

Or should i use another Seal as the Truth ?

jere
05-02-2011, 12:04 PM
Your two big threat monsters are Shield of Righteousness and Avenger's Shield. If you miss with Shield of Righteousness, you can just hit it again cause you don't lose holy power with misses.

Here is my suggestion:

Pop Divine Plea (gives you 3 HP to start with):
Range pull with Avenger's Shield and Judgement.
When the mob is in melee range, hit it with the Shield of Righteousness ability until the ability hits (hopefully just on the first attempt).
Pop Avenging Wrath and do the following style of rotation:

Crusader Strike every time that it is up with some other ability in the middle. Priority of those abilities is ShoR if 3 HP or more, AvShield otherwise, Judgement otherwise, Holy Wrath otherwise

It will look something like CS...X...CS...X....CS....ShoR....CS....X....CS...X ...CS...ShoR.. and so on, where X is either AvShield, Judgement, or Holy Wrath. The ShoR there are assuming 3 HP available...if not, then it will be another X followed by CS until you have 3 HP. So basically, it is just hit CS on cooldown with one ability in between.

If Grand Crusader procs, then you can replace any of those abilities with AvShield, except for ShoR, which is #1 priority.

I do this with very little hit and expertise with great success.

.Human.
05-02-2011, 12:06 PM
I will give this a try, but for the Seal is the Truth Seal the best isnt it ? Cause befor 4.1 i had no Problems with this one.

Ludov
05-02-2011, 12:11 PM
I was sort of wondering about this too. I also went the way of mastery. Leaving my hit and expertise pitifully low. I generally Plea>Wrath>Shield>Judgment (while moving in) and the SoTR. My principle questions are: 1. I'm thinking of duel speccing Prot/Prot for raid nights and was wondering if anyone had any Single/AoE build recommendations. 2. As a prot pally, is there ever a good time/reason to pop InQ? 3. Is the 30% chance to not consume HP useful now?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/turalyon/kharthos/advanced

jere
05-02-2011, 12:23 PM
I will give this a try, but for the Seal is the Truth Seal the best isnt it ? Cause befor 4.1 i had no Problems with this one.

Seal of Truth for sure. It is our highest threat seal. Once you have a significant threat lead, you can opt to switch to Seal of Insight if you prefer the healing, but honestly, I have not come to a fight where Seal of Insight was needed.

Try to get some practice with the rotation I suggested. Use a target dummy in SW or IF and try getting the rhythm down of hitting CS every time it is up and weaving in the other abilities. After using it for a while, it will become second nature.



I was sort of wondering about this too. I also went the way of mastery. Leaving my hit and expertise pitifully low. I generally Plea>Wrath>Shield>Judgment (while moving in) and the SoTR. My principle questions are: 1. I'm thinking of duel speccing Prot/Prot for raid nights and was wondering if anyone had any Single/AoE build recommendations. 2. As a prot pally, is there ever a good time/reason to pop InQ? 3. Is the 30% chance to not consume HP useful now?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/turalyon/kharthos/advanced
1. Honestly, there isn't going to be a huge difference between AoE and Single Target specs. You might get 2/2 Hallowed Ground in an AoE spec, but honestly, I don't think there is a need for an AoE spec. You might look at doing a Max Survival vs Threat spec if you really want to go prot/prot, but again, the specs won't differ in huge amounts.
2. Inq is useful when you need AoE threat. I use it inplace of ShoR in my rotation if I need the extra AoE threat and I don't have a particular target I need to maintain max threat on.

Ludov
05-02-2011, 12:32 PM
So, Jere, would you make any suggestions on my current spec? How could you tweak it for single target? Ditch the H.Power 30% talent? I've seen a lot of people ditching it for the SoT/SoR buff in the first tier.

Dedic
05-02-2011, 12:33 PM
Yes, SoT is the one you should use.

Ludov
05-02-2011, 01:14 PM
So, Jere, would you make any suggestions on my current spec? How could you tweak it for single target? Ditch the H.Power 30% talent? I've seen a lot of people ditching it for the SoT/SoR buff in the first tier.

jere
05-02-2011, 02:40 PM
So, Jere, would you make any suggestions on my current spec? How could you tweak it for single target? Ditch the H.Power 30% talent? I've seen a lot of people ditching it for the SoT/SoR buff in the first tier.

Eternal Glory only applies to WoG. Prior to 4.1, it could be taken in a survivability build to try to get back to back WoG casts. With 4.1 WoG now has a 20s cooldown, pretty much negating EG to nothing but a threat talent (basically a 30% chance to still be able to cast ShoR after casting WoG). There's been simulations run on this over at maintankadin and the results point that EG has a very abysmal result (relative to other threat talents), so there is pretty much no reason to take it anymore. It won't help with survivability due to the 20s cooldown on WoG and it gives less threat than other threat talent options. Go with Seals of the Pure instead.

As far as your spec goes, I would suggest the following:

Fill out Sacred Duty to 2/2. It is one of our top threat talents. Pull a point out of halllowed ground. You don't need 2/2 for that (shouldn't need to be using consecration much anymore).

Depending on what you want, you can also snake points out of Rule of Law and put them into Reckoning. Reckoning is a much better threat talent. HOWEVER, Rule of Law does give a 15% boost to WoG crit, so it depends on how much you want that for survivability purposes.

I went with the following build to maximize what I feel are both threat and survivability. I opted for the run speed enchant over PoJ (PoJ is more, but the enchant seems to be enough atm) and put those points into Reckoning (rather than what I suggested to you).
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhsRddRRucbh

.Human.
05-06-2011, 08:21 AM
Thx for all your advice , atm ill do a bit better with tanking. While my overall dmg has been increased well up :)