View Full Version : DPS Alternate means for socket bonus in tier chests

04-30-2011, 07:41 AM
Discussion: For those of us using reforging as a means to reach desired hit levels, yet strive to min/max to at least a limited extent, there is an alternative to primary stat/hit purple to activate the 20 primary stat bonus in our tier chest.

The pesky truth is, I'm nit-picky and detail-oriented enough to reforge to a nice, clean 961 hit rating on my hunter's gear, leaving me with a nagging choice on my chest tier piece. I was torn between my completion-minded half putting an agility/hit for my blue socket for the sake of a wasted 20 hit and no loss to agility, or feeling wasteful by gemming with two 40 agility gems and disregarding my socket color entirely.

Daring to be a black sheep, my choice was an 20 aglility / 30 stamina demonseye, which seems wasteful in raiding gear. My reasoning:

2 red primary stat gems: 80 agility, no bonus. Mainstream accepted choice for at or over hitcapped players.

1 red primary stat gem, and one purple primary/hit hybrid: 60 gemmed agilty, 20 gem hit, 20 socket agility = 80 agillity, 20 hit. Also popular, definately a plus for those needing a little boost to reach desired hit.

My deviate thinking: 1 red primary stat gem, one primary/stamina hybrid: 60 gem agility, 30 gemmed stamina, 20 socket bonus agility = 80 agilty, 30 stamina.

Despite the debatable usefulness of stamina for a DPS class, unavoidable spike damage in raiding content combined with my class's self heal (Chimera shot as marksman ms of course) scaling with my health pool, made the free 30 stamina a no-brainer. With the mindset of 'waste not, want not' I found that since there was no other remotely viable DPS increase from a blue gem color for the socket, I opt for the minor survival increase from the stamina. Please note that I am A) reforged to hitcap, and B) not sacrificing any stat of any sort for this increase in health (admittedly minor)

For those who will inevitably say that 30 stamina is not worth the effort, how much of a difference is between the "enchant chest - mighty stats" and the maelstrom version "enchant chest - peerless stats"? Bear in mind that like nearly all gemming and enchanting benefits (weapon enchants notably an exception, less so but also profession perk bonuses of the 80+ stat grade) the effect is not game-breaking, but rather a slight improvement that is notwithstanding an improvement.

For any like-minded souls: Yes, It should be obvious but tunnel vision following cookie-cutter guides posted lavishly netwide make this actually a novel gem choice for some.

In any case, feel free to discuss and/or debate as you wish, this is most likely the only forum that I trust this thread to not die in flames/trolling et cetera.

Update to OP: armory link us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormscale/kemanorel/advanced

Secondary update to OP: This gemming is addressed at, I'm realizing a relatively rare niche in gear and stat balancing converging semi-optimal for mid-tier transitioning. I'd argue that it would be quite incorrect to place anything similar to 'BiS' type label, yet seemingly I've found a beautiful resting place so-to-speak along my journey's end.

Tertiary OP update: Yes, this is post 4.1 link to armory, as verifiable by the swap in favor of the crafted waist for the slight agility weight it lends over cho'gall's haste socket benefits (both red sockets, traded crit/haste for crit/mastery)

SUMMARY: In the all-but unheard of event of semi-ideal secondary stat weightings (plateau theory rather than blind stacking or a 1>2>3 priority) and exact hitcap from reforging and gearing choices, 80 primary < 80 primary 30 stamina. Current example is limited to tier chest's red/blue sockets for 20 prime stat (30 stamina in event of tanks, but this is primarily DPS focused towards Intellect/Agilty/Strength users, haven't cross-checked against healing tier as of yet)

In a sentence: In a rare chance where nothing is lost, is it still wrong to gem for an off-stat like stamina (hunter case study.)

**I would be unsurprised to see this a minor variation in the family of runspeed/pure stat family of choice debates. I remain optimistic however.

04-30-2011, 08:05 AM
Well without an armory link it is difficult to be precise; but how about using the hit hybrid and then change one of those reforges to that you used for hit to Crit instead which is the one stat that more is always useful?

04-30-2011, 09:02 AM
Well without an armory link it is difficult to be precise; but how about using the hit hybrid and then change one of those reforges to that you used for hit to Crit instead which is the one stat that more is always useful?

^ Agreed, or if not crit, haste or mastery or something other than hit.

04-30-2011, 12:24 PM
The diff between crappy socket bonuses and enchant anything is that there are no requirements to get the enchant other than gear level. IMO, you shouldn't sacrifice something you need more just to get something you need less, especially when the socket bonus amounts are so paltry.

04-30-2011, 02:52 PM
In simple regards, stamina should never be something that DPS classes gem for - ever. You will have enough health to survive all content that you are sufficiently geared to participate in just from the stamina that exists on your gear. As a result, the arguement that 'dead DPS is zero DPS' is moot for this discussion.

When it comes to the question of reaching a hit cap, think of it this way. The only viable blue colored stat to socket into gems is hit. If you add an agi/hit gem into your gear, it means that you're potentially freeing up hit rating that you have reforged to (or already have) on your gear in favor of something else that's desirable. You have the potential to shift around your secondary stats to reach more desired combat ratings (hit cap, soft haste caps, etc etc). If you're adding stamina to your gear, you're losing the potential for adding stats that directly increase your DPS to your gear.

04-30-2011, 02:53 PM
armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormscale/kemanorel/advanced

I cannot at present reforge as exactly to meet cap and not over without serious overhaul for -20 hit that I see. With essence proc & full vp trinket stacks, self crit, no food or flask is 36.72%, full vp stacking is 24.67%. Given napkin math I'm almost certainly at or above the threshold of raidbuffed 44% at which crit ceases for now to be #1 priority. Current haste amounts for marksman are giving sub-gcd steady shots with rapid fire or berserking, assuming raid windfury is present (have multiple shamans and death knights that are frost dps primarily, in addition to two survival-preferred hunters in current 25 composition) so more is semi-pointless until I can push to global steady shots out of haste effects, or should I shift points out of 3/3 pathing, which I am debating. Mastery is roughly at the threshold for 33% chance of marksman mastery to proc, and as survival with no buffs (including pet) am within average latency tolerance for 3 cobra in Explosive shot's cooldown. Crit is obviously higher with agility scaling, and mastery provides a 16% flat spell damage increase as well.

Given accepted math research pre- and post-4.1 I'm just about at my sweet spot for gear available. So, with this in mind (pardon hunter wall of text, check me via spreadsheet or by accepted weight ratios, I'm fairly certain I can stand on my current gems, enchanting and reforges, but in process of post-raid week post-patch simcraft verification and testing.

So can anyone fault me a slight health cushion with what I've verified? If Hit = 8.00%, crit/haste/mastery are at comfortable thresholds, and reforging to allow the hit gem would put me either under or over cap rather than the precise hit I've managed (no calculator, just used zeherah's spreadsheet to do my math for me for different weightings) is the stamina gem justifiable?

Yes, I am very much so overdoing it as far as precision and homework, but I truly love my toon, the game, and my guildies who of course deserve nothing less than the best I can manage. (Its why I double pot for normal mode farm content, aside from aiming at personal bests.) Please make note of the socket's I have NOT gone for, also the stat > hit > stat reforging has been for the most part avoided since as stated, I'm a little bit past the stack method of stat weights, currently at aiming for plateaus and/or threshold ranges, working on building the alternate pieces of equivalent ilevel drops into possible "stacking" set swaps, but for now a general-purpose gear set for all-purpose raiding suits my time scheduling.*

So have I done my homework right? Since this is in theory a tanking-oriented site was trying to avoid pollution of hunter theory, but I'm a staunch supporter of elitistjerks.com's NEVER EVER POST, but read until head swims approach.

@zyxian: Ordinarily I'd agree, but what my choice boiled down to was simple math of 80 agility versus 80 agilty and 30 stamina, by my math 80 < 110 regardless, assuming nothing lost in the process.

*I'd rather not speak as to offpieces, I've been blessed with multitudes of choice without a complete option set. I have somewhere between a completed collection and an alternative for all slots, exceptions are weapon choice barring resilience pieces which are out of the running until my team gets it's rating up for the tier 2 version. And I'm standing firm in decision to not race change, due to later tier scaling and also taste. Our other hunters are Blood Elf and Tauren, so I'm safe at present.

05-01-2011, 10:59 PM
It does seem like you've managed to reach a good spot with your secondary stats. However, even if you are slightly above the hit cap (slightly above is better than slightly below), there are some other secondary stats that, while perhaps not being utilized to their full potential, are still adding some amount of DPS.

I'm not too familiar with hunters right now, but I'm assuming there's some level of 'crit cap' due to talents, buffs and procs that you usually don't want to go higher than because of a particular ability. Regardless of this, additional crit will increase the amount of overall damage done.

Additional stamina adds zero DPS. Additional hit has the potential to add more DPS. Therefore, hit is the better choice. I'm not sure what the hunter community has available for reforging, but www.wowreforge.com does a good job of allowing you to set various hard and soft caps for two of your stats (usually hit and something else).

Maybe someone else more versed in hunters could provide some more precise answers.

05-02-2011, 12:42 AM
Looking at your armory, it's pretty clear that reforging would probably be in your best interested, and in that case, the agility/hit gem would probably be the best option.

Until you choose to do that however, you're right, in this case, sitting right at 8% hit, with stam being your only other options 80 agi + 30 stam > 80 Agi. However, I bet the agi/hit gem would be best.

askmrrobot.com is another one that should be pretty good. I don't know where RAWR is for Hunters - but it's optimzation feature does well.

To be blunt, if you're going to the degree of pre-potting and using elixirs over flasks, reforging seems right up your alley.

05-03-2011, 02:05 PM
A quick moment to mention the feature in the advanced option for the armory that displays a reforge summary. I'm using enough to put me into the stat weight needed based on the math of current theorycrafting in regard to plateau that is within reach, I cannont reach the hypothetically ideal final plateau with this ilevel of gear available.

In a response to the respectful discussion thread, am working on adding hunter input to the conversation ideally of some of the more known variety such as Frostheim and Zeherah