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shiz98
04-29-2011, 11:39 AM
I've been out of the loop these past few months with RL stuff (same old song, same old song...), but with the release of 4.1 I need to make some changes to the Arms guide to keep it up to date. As I haven't been following developments here or at EJ, I'm hoping some of you can clarify some things for me...

Execute Range
A few months back there were some good discussions here around use of Execute in the rotation. I had never sussed out exactly how to fit it into the rotation, but I'm hoping somebody else did?

Currently I'm looking at an execute rotation of:

MS only to maintain Rend/Lambs
CS
Overpower
30 Rage Execute


Any thoughts?

Mastery vs Crit
I did some rough math on this for the guide, and the two looked fairly equal. Further develops seemed to point to crit being superior (so, basically take both stats but gem for crit). However mastery got buffed in 4.1, so I'm guessing they're somewhat equal now? Maybe we're still in the same situation with regards to gemming...

Expertise
In the guide I recommended capping expertise due to its use as a DPS stat and a rage source. How's this holding up as a recommendation?

Anything Else?
Please point out anything else I should update :)

mrmojoz
04-29-2011, 12:02 PM
I don't recall Mastery being worth anywhere near Crit sep wise pre 4.1.

marklar
04-29-2011, 03:38 PM
execute rotation looks good. i actually use MS on cooldown during execute for more enrage/BT procs, but i dunno which way is actually more dps. i also always pop reck/golemblood/DC right away and stack executioner to 5. DC helps you get consecutive 30 rage executes off, and executioner REALLY helps to get more 30+ rage executes overall (at least it seems to). OP is probably worth keeping in the sub-20% rotation now that it's not necessary to refresh rend.

i haven't done the math on crit vs. mastery, but experience supports crit > mastery. in addition to actual critical hits, crit helps with DW stacking, enrage procs, BT procs, incite procs, etc. lots and lots of crit feeding itself in the arms tree.

i also value crit > expertise, but i'm still undecided on expertise vs. mastery. it turns out being under 26 exp is not as bad as i had feared. blizzard has built in some protection for us, with very little to no rage loss on yellow dodges and parries, and also normal rage gain on white dodges and parries! test it yourself on a dummy, because i found it very hard to believe until i did.

in addition, we get an extra OP to somewhat cover the loss of whatever attack just missed.

Kazeyonoma
04-29-2011, 03:57 PM
I dunno, with the ability to change to fury and just flat out deal 5% more damage than arms, and with execute being able to hit as large as it does at max 30 rage, I think dropping OP out of the rotation (since it doesn't necessarily keep any big debuff, it's just a big hitting low cost ability) has been successful for some time now. I can try to do some analysis next time, but it'll be hard only raiding 1 time a week right now.

basically sub 20% i go zerker, pop cds, keep MS up for lambs debuff, CS when it's up, and just spam execute, my dps numbers soar during these periods, and I'm not sure changing back to battle stance, just to OP, lose rage, then change back to zerker stance is worth it since I believe execute will always hit harder than OP even non-crit at 30 rage scenarios.

I was with you on the mastery vs crit situation but I think crit is winning out as we can start to climb our crit numbers into higher/more reliable %'s which enable our enrages to stay up, as well as reliably count on crits increase. I wouldn't be surprised to see crit overtaking mastery just as a fact of our gearing going up, but I'm not sure about 4.1 with the mastery change (i thought it was just for fury that this got buffed).

As for the expertise, both myself and marklar seem to both be finding better results in not worrying about expertise as much. Rage becomes less of an issue as you getter better gear/weapons (as was the case in wotlk as well) so that becomes a non-factor, then you throw in the being able to stack more beneficial stats (str in gems, crit in reforging) and I think expertise just falls down the ladder in that you gain a fast 1.0 gcd high crit ability with low cost. I am still not 100% sold in just having NO care for expertise because getting dodged on an MS or CS HAS to have some sort of large dip in our dps especially with how MS now keeps up lambs AND rend for us now, getting an unlucky string of dodges on MS can cause a noticeable drop in dps as well (i imagine). So I don't prioritize being softcap anymore, but I'll take expertise where I can get it basically. I've raided around 15-20 expertise lately and it's been smooth in terms of rage, and dps gain.

I can't think of anything else except analyzing if BS is worth using in single target scenarios, and if so how to use it (cs first?) as well as probably gearing/trinket combinations that are best. That's probably something that's been lacking in the Arms department for some time now (a gearing guide, bis guide).

shiz98
04-30-2011, 09:00 PM
You know, I actually got about 1/3 of the way through a BIS list as part of the guide. I ended up scratching it entirely because it was more-or-less useless.

"Good" Arms gear is incredibly simple, for the most part: get stuff without haste. You're left with combinations of hit, exp, crit, and mastery. Assuming you're capped for hit/exp, the only possible combination of secondary stats you want is crit/mastery. So basically, anyone can figure out if an item is worth picking up; if you know your hit and expertise values, you're golden.

More to the point, BIS is a misnomer. There's no such things as a BIS item, only a BIS set. If you don't have the rest of the set, picking up that "BIS" item may be a DPS loss because it kicks your hit rating down, or similar. While it's theoretically interesting, and maybe relevant to the top 1% of raiders, to figure out what the absolute best set of gear is, it's just not terribly useful in a practical sense for the vast majority of players. Instead, what's most useful is a list of "good" gear -- but since "good" Arms gear is just gear without haste, you end up with a large list of gear that really doesn't save anybody any time.

Even if someone did was to assemble a BIS gear list for Arms, I don't think they'd succeed. You'd end up with two or three different configurations with similar stats, due to the way itemization happens. Say BIS means capping hit and exp, and then getting prioritizing crit > mastery. Even within that configuration, there's room for variation, since you can have (pulling stats out of my ass) say two different gloves: one with hit/cit, and one with exp/mastery. Both of these are good choices, but depending on what you go with, the rest of the gear is different. The result is that you can get two sets that are identical (well, within small deltas :)) stat-wise, but with different items. So which one is the BIS list? If you exclude one, you're just making it harder for people to collect the gear for no reason.

TL;DR: BIS sucks.

Now what might be more worthwhile is a look at 2Hers, Ranged, and Trinkets, since they're a bit more interesting and more difficult to compare.

Kazeyonoma
05-02-2011, 11:03 AM
Oh I agree. and good points.

marklar
05-02-2011, 12:49 PM
agree that BiS list is a lot of work for something that is very fluid, so probably not worth doing. although i would set stat priorities - i try and have crit as a secondary stat on everything i can manage. x/crit > most other combos (assuming "x" is common). in your example above, i would argue that hit/crit is a better combo than expertise/mastery is almost every case because you can reforge for your caps.

2H'ers follow an equally boring pattern, really.
average damage > all. from there, it's just the same stat priorities.

trinkets could be more interesting to highlight.

as far as bladestorm, i can't see any way it's worthwhile to use for normal single target attacks. basically you get 150% weapon damage at 2/3 the GCD and nothing else. however, there could be interesting cases where it was beneficial - especially if you had to move slightly out of melee range.

marklar
05-02-2011, 12:54 PM
oh, regarding glyphs - i'm finding HT/CS to be an excellent combo on most fights now (nobody should have a problem changing glyphs every fight).

Deathwish238
05-03-2011, 12:40 AM
I've been out of the loop these past few months with RL stuff (same old song, same old song...), but with the release of 4.1 I need to make some changes to the Arms guide to keep it up to date. As I haven't been following developments here or at EJ, I'm hoping some of you can clarify some things for me...

Execute Range
A few months back there were some good discussions here around use of Execute in the rotation. I had never sussed out exactly how to fit it into the rotation, but I'm hoping somebody else did?

Currently I'm looking at an execute rotation of:

MS only to maintain Rend/Lambs
CS
Overpower
30 Rage Execute


Any thoughts?

Mastery vs Crit
I did some rough math on this for the guide, and the two looked fairly equal. Further develops seemed to point to crit being superior (so, basically take both stats but gem for crit). However mastery got buffed in 4.1, so I'm guessing they're somewhat equal now? Maybe we're still in the same situation with regards to gemming...

Expertise
In the guide I recommended capping expertise due to its use as a DPS stat and a rage source. How's this holding up as a recommendation?

Anything Else?
Please point out anything else I should update :)

Arms 4.1 is great. Our DPS increased significantly with this patch.

Do not stack Expertise. I am doing Str > 8% Hit > Crit >> Mastery > Haste == Expertise.
My weights are:
1.81 Str
1.21 Crit
0.69 Mastery
0.46 Expertise
0.43 Haste

2 Str = 3 Crit
2 Str = 5 Mastery


I'm currently able to consistently pull 17.5-18.0K DPS in heroics with 6 ilevel 359 and the rest ilevel 346 gear without flasks/food.

The key to Arms is to be really good about not missing Overpowers....except for in Execute phase. I go to Berserker for Execute spam so Overpower is not an option.

I just got my Darkmoon Hurricane card, excited to see the results.

marklar
05-03-2011, 12:14 PM
Overpower now has a 1.5-second cooldown and global cooldown (Taste for Blood's Overpower cooldown has not changed).

is this some kind of sick joke, or is there something coming to offset it? anyone have any information?

KillerSquirrel
05-03-2011, 12:49 PM
So now we don't have to have rend up to use OP, plus we get the OP proc when we do rend?

Manxmadman
05-03-2011, 01:51 PM
Arms 4.1 is great. Our DPS increased significantly with this patch.

Do not stack Expertise. I am doing Str > 8% Hit > Crit >> Mastery > Haste == Expertise.
My weights are:
1.81 Str
1.21 Crit
0.69 Mastery
0.46 Expertise
0.43 Haste

2 Str = 3 Crit
2 Str = 5 Mastery


I'm currently able to consistently pull 17.5-18.0K DPS in heroics with 6 ilevel 359 and the rest ilevel 346 gear without flasks/food.

The key to Arms is to be really good about not missing Overpowers....except for in Execute phase. I go to Berserker for Execute spam so Overpower is not an option.

I just got my Darkmoon Hurricane card, excited to see the results.

Unless your stance dancing (which is a fairly decent DPS increase and not hard to do with some good macros) then expertise becomes as valuable as Mastery, given that you only want to be going into Battle stance for double OP then back into Berserker for the rest of the rotation. Having a dodge within that makes things more awkward and disrupts the flow quite a bit.

marklar
05-03-2011, 03:17 PM
So now we don't have to have rend up to use OP, plus we get the OP proc when we do rend?

no, i'm assuming it still wouldn't proc unless the target dodges, so TfB is still necessary. but changing the GCD to 1.5s is a huge nerf. even if they boost the damage by 1.5x to compensate, i still hate it. seems like blizzard is slowly but surely removing everything about arms that made it unique (and challenging).

on the one hard, i like that arms is competitive dps, but is this how we have to get there? there's no real point to having two distinct dps specs if they just get homogenized.

Muffin Man
05-05-2011, 06:58 PM
is this some kind of sick joke, or is there something coming to offset it? anyone have any information?

It's to make the rotation smoother and 'more intuitive'. That's the phraseology they've used in the past for these kind of 'quality of life' changes.

Cuz that's really all it is. Not a big deal though, there was a rare window I tried to do where you could squeeze in 2 OP's and another ability between MS's, but even that pushes MS back .5 seconds.

On topic for changes, has anyone else noticed rage problems?

It's subtle but I feel like I can't spam my abilities as much as before. My imagination or has 10 rage rend being replaced by slam really matter rage-wise?

Deathwish238
05-09-2011, 12:25 PM
I wouldn't call it rage problems as much as expected rage downtime. When your rage is low that's when you need to use your shout or deadly calm or even bladestorm. I haven't had much rage issues if I do not use HS other than when CS is up and during Heroism.


That does lead me to a question, is it better to use Deadly Calm during low rage phases or to use Deadly Clam during the Execute phase with Recklessness up allowing for Executes + HS spam?



Unless your stance dancing (which is a fairly decent DPS increase and not hard to do with some good macros) then expertise becomes as valuable as Mastery, given that you only want to be going into Battle stance for double OP then back into Berserker for the rest of the rotation. Having a dodge within that makes things more awkward and disrupts the flow quite a bit.

I tried stance dancing for a couple weeks(OP on Battle, everything else on Berserker, but this was before 4.1 so Rend was needed to), but I found the double tapping to be annoying. It's certainly doable and it was working pretty well for PvE, but for PvP I cannot rely on it. That said, it may be a bit better now that we don't have to worry about Rend. For a stance dancing, do you have 1 or 2 points in Tactical Mastery?

atm, I kill the shit out of anything....without any Expertise. If you're good about staying behind your opponent/mob, the Expertise is moot. Our Crit isn't high to begin with so we need all we can get and the procs from Mastery are just great, so I continue to greatly value those two over Expertise.

Muffin Man
05-12-2011, 05:30 PM
Actually, I've completely removed HS from my rotation and haven't had any rage issues. I also haven't been rage capped except during DC.

So I just save DC for execute phase, pop recklessness and go.

Without the need to refresh rend, I find the rotation very rhythmic.

MS, pick two abilities, MS again, pick two more abilities.

I rarely have to back to back slam, and as long as I keep that 1-2 timer in my head I don't end up munging GCD's with OP (for example, MS, Slam, Op, Slam and having everything off by .5 seconds).

As an aside: I'm trying out Fury for our next raid and it's feels bizarre to have poorer mobility and clunkier AoE (IMO, BnT, Bladestorm, SS > WW). Last time I was Fury was TBC when Fury was the one with better mobility and all the good AoE moves (Fury had SS back then!).

Deathwish238
05-14-2011, 02:39 AM
I actually really like the new WhirlWind. If Bladestorm is down and you have 4+ opponents, WW is very effective as Arms.

Arms is MS, pick two abilities, repeat while Fury is BT, pick one ability, BT.

It's a DPS loss to only use Deadly Calm during Execute/Reck phase if the fight is longer than 4 min. I try to use it as soon as I have at least 2 stacks of LttS and my MS and CS are up.




Have there been any comparisons between doing MS, OP, Slam, Slam, MS vs MS, OP, Slam, MS after LttS is stacked to 3? I realize the second Slam will push the next MS back about 0.5 sec, but otherwise I feel like I'm wasting time waiting for MS after the first Slam.

Muffin Man
05-16-2011, 01:19 PM
Good point, you can WW as Arms =x, Arms is even better at AoE than I thought!

Anecdotely, I saw my target dummy dps go up when I stopped letting MS get pushed back due to trying to 'maximize' the 1 sec OP GCD (I don't consider the shorter GCD on OP as an advantage anymore). Also, you're actually pushing your next MS back 1 second.

0 MS
1.5 OP
2.5 Slam
4.0 Slam
4.5 missed MS
5.5 actual MS

At the risk of derailing this thread, I don't find Fury as simple as BT, x, BT. Because you end up with the same collision problems with Raging Blow / CS that you used to get with Rend / CS as Arms (not to mention that if you catch an awkward Bloodsurge / RB proc without noticing you can easily push your rotation back ~1 second).

So in that sense I find the Arms rotation much more streamlined. I'm 95% sure that the CS / MS collision actually is a dps gain by pushing MS back one GCD (although it's possible to lose an OP proc in here)

Also, you're right in that getting extra DC procs is better than saving it for that money spot. Early in Cata even heroic bosses were lasting ~3 minutes so you could easily use DC twice. It's a relatively short cooldown ability and I'll admit I forget to squeeze out extra uses at the beginning of fights.

marklar
05-17-2011, 04:31 PM
i doubt that any idle time in the rotation would result in a dps increase for arms.

since MS is the only thing with a CD, it's the only thing that can really get "pushed back". so what can push it back? well slam can, but it's close to the same dps. OP can, but it's much higher dps. so aside from a very slight potential uptime gain in MS-related procs, there is not much to gain.

Deathwish238
05-18-2011, 04:03 PM
Has anyone tried doing CS then Bladestorm? Works very well if you're low on rage or want to burn someone with little fear of being CCed. It can cause a bigger damage spike than doing DC and then your normal rotation...which I found surprising.


Edit: Noticed something interesting in SimCraft. It starts off in Berserker and pops Recklessness/DC at the beginning doing a rotation of CS, MS, Slam, Slam, MS, Slam, Slam.




Good point, you can WW as Arms =x, Arms is even better at AoE than I thought!

Anecdotely, I saw my target dummy dps go up when I stopped letting MS get pushed back due to trying to 'maximize' the 1 sec OP GCD (I don't consider the shorter GCD on OP as an advantage anymore). Also, you're actually pushing your next MS back 1 second.

0 MS
1.5 OP
2.5 Slam
4.0 Slam
4.5 missed MS
5.5 actual MS

At the risk of derailing this thread, I don't find Fury as simple as BT, x, BT. Because you end up with the same collision problems with Raging Blow / CS that you used to get with Rend / CS as Arms (not to mention that if you catch an awkward Bloodsurge / RB proc without noticing you can easily push your rotation back ~1 second).

So in that sense I find the Arms rotation much more streamlined. I'm 95% sure that the CS / MS collision actually is a dps gain by pushing MS back one GCD (although it's possible to lose an OP proc in here)

Also, you're right in that getting extra DC procs is better than saving it for that money spot. Early in Cata even heroic bosses were lasting ~3 minutes so you could easily use DC twice. It's a relatively short cooldown ability and I'll admit I forget to squeeze out extra uses at the beginning of fights.

Yeah, MS, OP, Slam, Slam isn't worth doing. It not only feels weird to do, like you said it delays MS too much. It's actually more than a second because Slam is not instant.

For Fury, the RB/CS collision isn't too much of a worry. I liked to wait until Bloodsurge procced before using CS. Then you wait for BT to have 1.5 sec on CD and do CS, BT, Slam, BT, RB. It can push your rotation back a little, but it's not really a dps loss because of the guaranteed Slam being available. I've had times were I'ld use CS w/o Bloodsurge proc and then didn't have anything to use when BT and RB were on CD.

Yes it's a DPS gain to push back MS for CS.

I usually use DC immediately after I've stacked LttS to 2 and MS has 1.5 sec on CD and I'm not worried about pulling off the tank.



i doubt that any idle time in the rotation would result in a dps increase for arms.

since MS is the only thing with a CD, it's the only thing that can really get "pushed back". so what can push it back? well slam can, but it's close to the same dps. OP can, but it's much higher dps. so aside from a very slight potential uptime gain in MS-related procs, there is not much to gain.

Yes and No...looking at my numbers:
For non crits: Slam > MS > OP
For crits: MS > Slam > OP

OP hits for 24k on avg
MS hits for 22k on avg
Slam hits for 24k on avg


So really all of our moves are about the same in terms of avg damage. OP may instinctively seem like higher DPS because of its much higher crit rate, but it hits for less than both Slam and MS. However, the big catch is that Slam has a cast time.


Conclusion? It's not worth pushing back MS for Slam because of Slam's cast time.

marklar
05-20-2011, 01:43 PM
Yes and No...looking at my numbers:
For non crits: Slam > MS > OP
For crits: MS > Slam > OP

OP hits for 24k on avg
MS hits for 22k on avg
Slam hits for 24k on avg


So really all of our moves are about the same in terms of avg damage. OP may instinctively seem like higher DPS because of its much higher crit rate, but it hits for less than both Slam and MS. However, the big catch is that Slam has a cast time.


Conclusion? It's not worth pushing back MS for Slam because of Slam's cast time.

the slam cast time should be irrelevant - it's only 0.5s and the GCD is 1.5s so there's no difference in when you can get the next attack off.

w.r.t. OP, you're ignoring the GCD difference. sure, OP hits for the same damage, but only takes 2/3 of the time. therefore one 24k OP is actually worth a 36k normal GCD attack. this is why i'm so concerned about the upcoming GCD nerf to OP - it's a really big dps loss if it goes live as-is.

Muffin Man
05-20-2011, 04:17 PM
w.r.t. OP, you're ignoring the GCD difference. sure, OP hits for the same damage, but only takes 2/3 of the time. therefore one 24k OP is actually worth a 36k normal GCD attack. this is why i'm so concerned about the upcoming GCD nerf to OP - it's a really big dps loss if it goes live as-is.

I would argue it's no difference on DPS. Realistically the only thing you can do with the extra GCD is to get a slam faster.

So the tradeoff becomes gaining a slam 0.5 seconds faster and losing 1 second on MS.

I can't see this being worth it when the damage is so close on average hits and MS procs Battle Trance and Wrecking Crew (this is the bigger deal I think).

But this is getting circular, as I don't have hard numbers to prove this and it doesn't seem like you do either.

But that's for Shiz to sort out right? :p

marklar
05-23-2011, 01:50 AM
I would argue it's no difference on DPS. Realistically the only thing you can do with the extra GCD is to get a slam faster.

you would argue the 1.0s GCD makes no dps difference? i think that's going to be easy to prove, just imagine if every ability had a 1.0s GCD. would you see a dps difference then?

Tengenstein
05-23-2011, 02:56 AM
assuming CS doesn't exist. our rotations look a little like this

0.0 MS
1.5 OP
2.5 Slam
4.0 Slam
5.5 MS
7.0 OP
8.0 Slam
9.5 slam
11.0 MS
12.5 Slam
14.0 OP
15.0 slam
16.5 MS
18.0 Slam

4xMS, 3xOP, 7xSlam

0.0 MS
1.5 OP
3.0 Slam
4.5 MS
6.0 Slam
7.5 OP
9.0 MS
10.5 Slam
12.0 Slam
13.5 MS
15.0 OP
16.5 Slam
18.0 MS

5xMS, 3xOP, 5x Slam.

we're losing a GCD every 18 seconds, until we start execute spamming. I really can't imagine MS doing enough damage to make up for the lower number of slams in a given time frame.

marklar
05-24-2011, 03:24 PM
I really can't imagine MS doing enough damage to make up for the lower number of slams in a given time frame.

it won't even come close. at best it does 1% more damage than a slam and we'll get some small increase in enrage uptime + BT procs.

marklar
05-31-2011, 04:28 PM
i also value crit > expertise, but i'm still undecided on expertise vs. mastery. it turns out being under 26 exp is not as bad as i had feared.

after quite a bit more testing, i can say that i definitely prefer expertise > mastery for the raiding that i do. with lower gear levels, i still wouldn't worry about being capped; the reasons why have been explained and tested already. you just give up too much to reach the cap early on.

i was running ~16 expertise for quite awhile, but i was stuck around 22k dps on V&T. i reforged some mastery to expertise (20) and jumped up about +1k, so i did some more (24) and hit 24k this week. i never sacrificed crit, but i'm going to be going forward with crit > expertise > mastery >> haste as my priority. there's a couple reasons why i think this is working for me:

1) stance dancing - picking up the extra dodge-procs becomes cumbersome and i find stance dancing mandatory to maintaining good numbers.
2) strategies - for some fights (such as V&T mentioned above) i spend part of the fight standing in front of the boss :(
expertise under the soft cap becomes 2x as valuable in such a case.

also, since trinkets were mentioned as being worth discussion, i'm wondering if anyone has compared the 321 str/haste proc trinket off chogall with the 321 crit/strength proc dragonkin trinket. as much as i love the crit and being able to line up the strength proc with my other cooldowns, i'm wondering if the static 321 strength might be enough to outweigh it.