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View Full Version : Tanking Prot warrior stamina/mastery dilemma



Oddballz
04-28-2011, 10:20 AM
Here is my armory link to start with: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/jaedenar/oddball/simple

NOW BEFORE YOU GO "RAWR STAMINA STACKER!!"

Firstly, I've been using standart parry/mastery gems with double stamina trinkets since the day I hit 85, until yesterday. Yesterday I decided I could use the Tol Barad trinket(Mirror of the Broken Images) simply because the "use effect" looked quite nice to me so why not?

However, when I switch one of my stamina gems to the TB trinket, my HP dropped to just little above 150k. So I thought I could replace my gems with pure stamina ones to compensate the huge HP loss. And it looked just ace cause I've gained %2 more block using that trinket and gained slightly more HP aswell.

Now this brings me to my questions. When I encounter people in HCs or whatever, especially healers, Im getting blamed cause Im a stamina stacker. Now I know some of the top 200 guild's tanks do this and It's safe for me to say I was inspired by them.

So;

1) Is my thinking somehow invalid? If so, why?

2) Should I just ignore my HP loss, and switch to my old gemming while using the mastery trinket? Note that I would be sitting on 150k HP.

3) Should I be trying to reach unhittable as much as it can be?

Lastly, any recommendations in order to improve my character is appriciated.

Thanks beforehand for the replies =)

Lohk
04-28-2011, 10:35 AM
your thinking is not invalid. You will still absorb damage and not die. WoW is set up in such a way that you could probably stack strength and still not die.

The reason why Mastery is a huge factor is because the damage mitigation smooths out overall damage taken to a lower number. You will take more damage overall, but each hit received will be normalized. This makes healer's life easier.

Stacking stamina does nothing for damage taken, just gives healers more play room. On a fight where you can live through every large hitting ability with no heals, stamina becomes useless.

Becoming "unhittable" will only do what I mentioned above, smooth out your damage to make damage more predictable and thus easier to heal.

By being a "stamina stacker" you are only giving your healers more room to play with in terms of how much time they have to get back to a safe level of hp. If you run with bad healers, stamina may be a better option because their slow reaction times or terrible heal assignments may cause you to die even though you had shield wall and shield block up.

Doing things because the "top 200 guilds do it" is a terrible reason to do anything. You need to figure out what works best for your healers and your raid team. My damage in take was graphed in comparison to the sustainable HPS of my tank healer. We found that on average, she can keep me alive on most fights without running out of mana.

My big question is: Why are you stacking stamina at all?

Rigwarl
04-28-2011, 10:41 AM
All and all your gear looks pretty good.

*****

If you did
Yellow/prismatic= Mastery
Red= Parry/mastery
Blue= Mastery/stam

You would lose 255 stam, and gain 200 mastery and 20 parry. Doesn't look too good for mastery and parry there.

If you go with
Yellow/prismatic= mastery
Red= parry/stam
Blue= stam

You end up with -120stam +100mastery +20 parry... Which doesn't look too bad, I would probably go with this.

*****

At the very least, if you want to keep your shiny double stam in Gloves and Belt:
Chest: A Parry/stam in the red socket is a 20 parry gain with no loss of stam
Legs: A Mastery/stam in the yellow is a 20 mastery gain with no loss of stam

Mainhand/shield/ranged: Should really all be reforged into Parry not Dodge, Hold the Line pushes Parry ahead. The consensus seems to be a 2-5% difference between the values, with parry being the larger.

Oddballz
04-28-2011, 10:44 AM
I thought I cleared that out and actually asked as a question. Without using 2 stamina trinkets, my HP is on 150kish. So I tried to balance my HP loss with using stamina when Im using mastery trinket.

And my question was If I should ignore the HP loss and even if I would be on 150k HP, should I be gemming for standart mastery/parry gems?

Thanks for the reply tho :)

Rigwarl
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
I wouldn't even call you a stam stacker.
Your stam is only 255 above what most tanks would have in your gear.
I tried a stam set and when I switched over to mastery massing I lost 12k hp! Now that was stam stacking.

The reason the top guilds push more toward stam SOMETIMES, is usually for the hardmode bosses that have pretty high burst where they feel they need that extra buffer, and for magic damage heavy bosses. Those high level tanks usually have alternate items and trinkets they can switch between depending on the needs of the fight. Definitely do not need this in heroic 5 mans, or normal version raids.

sifuedition
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
You seem way too concerned about this 150k hp mark. It's meaningless. Anything above 140 or so is probably fine in normal modes IF you are gearing correctly for it and your healers understand how to heal it. Don't forget, changing trinkets on a per fight basis is the preferred method so if you find a fight you just need the stam, go double stam trinks.

Quinafoi
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
I think you are thinking too much in terms of yourself and not in terms of your group or your content. There is two reasons why tanks switch to a more effective health focused approach in high end Heroic Raid content.

1. The content hits much harder and you simply need more Effective Health to survive. The fundamental reason why Effective Health is important has never changed, however in practice its value isn't seen as much outside of Heroic Raid content.

2. When you are a Heroic Raid Tank, you are grouped with Heroic Raid Healers. Better healers can cope with healing more damage and in larger spikes. Keep in mind as you make the transition to Heroic Raid content, you are not the only one in your group making this transition. Everyone needs to step up to that higher level together.


1) Is my thinking somehow invalid? If so, why?
Yes it is invalid, because you are not one of those tanks. Doing something because someone else does it is never an excuse. They do it for a very important reason and if you don't understand why they do it then you missed the point.

Heroic Raid content hits significantly harder. Because of that, tanks need to prioritize effective health more. This has never changed. However if you aren't in that level of progression, then you don't need the extra health to survive bigger hits, but rather need to smooth out incoming damage to make yourself easier to heal. You have to be easier to heal because guess what, your healers aren't Heroic Raid healers either. You gear appropriately for your content, because your healers are able to handle what is appropriate for your content.


2) Should I just ignore my HP loss, and switch to my old gemming while using the mastery trinket? Note that I would be sitting on 150k HP.
Yes. You switch to stacking effective health because you need it to survive larger hits in Heroic Raid content. However at the same time when you go into Heroic Raids, you have "Heroic Healers" which can cope with healing more damage and in larger spikes.


3) Should I be trying to reach unhittable as much as it can be?
Yes, because this greatly stabilizes the rate you take damage making it easier to heal and your healers have to be less heroic in order to heal you.



You are focusing too much in defining your priorities on what should a tank do by looking at what better tanks do. Instead you need to focus more on what should I do that is appropriate for my current context. Paragon Tanks for example have Paragon Healers. Should you do the same thing as a Paragon Tank necessarily if you don't have a Paragon Healer to back you up? See where context starts to matter?

Oddballz
04-28-2011, 11:14 AM
If you could all please check the armory link again, I've made some changed considering your recommendations. How does it look now?

Rigwarl
04-28-2011, 11:21 AM
Looks good to me.

Insahnity
04-28-2011, 12:08 PM
I think you need to look at socket bonuses. For both your chest and your pants, had you chosen a (parry/stam for chest) or (Mastery/stam for pants), you would have STILL gotten 60 stamina, plus a free 20 bonus defense stat. Ignore socket bonuses at your peril.

For some items, yeah it looks like a stam stack, but for example your helm or your bracers you went mastery. Which is good, but not really consistent with your gemming strategy. TBH, I prefer a balanced approach, go grab the socket bonuses while still stacking both stam or mastery as required. Nothing stopping you from swapping out your stam with stam/mastery.

I think you need to read WHY you stack one stat or the other. It looks like you are reading what a bunch of people say without really taking in what it means. I don't mean this as a criticism or derogatory.

Gregasaurous
04-28-2011, 09:30 PM
Ok, it's been said, and beaten to death already but then backed by a lot of words which is just kind of a headache, so let me make this as brief as possible.

You don't NEED to worry about how much stamina you have until Heroic Raids, until then it will take care of itself as far as you're concerned.

That said, enjoy making yourself as hard to hit as physically possible.

Loganisis
04-29-2011, 08:51 PM
The other key thing here is theorycrafting (pure stam versus a mastery-centric gem-to-the-socket) is designed for bleeding edge of progression tanks. These are the tanks that are running the first raids and getting kills with blues in places because they simply haven't had a chance for better to drop (nothing yet in the AH, few raid boss drops, etc).

So they're doing what you're doing at a noticably lower gear level. They are looking to min-max to the n-th degree to go alone with their exceptional skill.

You and I and *most* other players will be compartively more geared and less skilled than them. Which means the need for min-maxing to the nth degree is reduced because our CD usage isn't as good, but we have bigger HP pools because our gear is typically better or our healers may not be using the best healing choices, but they are hitting for more.

So when you get this far into the raid tier and you're rocking full 346s plus some VP and Rep and crafted 459s, you've got more wiggleroom.

***

But, this doesn't make going for a stam set 'better', it means it's not as critical that you min-max. Whereas a missed CD might wipe an early progression guild, usually now it's coordination (people standing in fire for example, or not running lightning rod out of the raid, or not DPS-ing to potential so things don't die as quickly as they should) that causes failure, not gear.

So is gemming for sockets with a mastery-centric view best? Yes.
Is it as critical as it was to early theorycrafters (who tend to be black and white, this is best, the rest is not)? No.

150k HP is not a magical number. Most of the tanks posting here were downing raids bosses with far less unbuffed and sometimes even buffed. It appeals to our desire for 'clean' numbers and 'clean' standards that are easy to identify.

Mastery > stam for survivability even now. It's just not as critical.

But if you come to tankspot, the advice is going to be go for the best, not what is good enough :)