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Pdneves
04-26-2011, 03:32 PM
Hello,

as the tittle says, some healers say I take too much dmg, for example when I do a pull of 5 mobs on 5 man HC's (take GB) they just can't handle the healing, they don't have to heal anyone except me or when some aoe comes. I find it really weird, but can't figure out what can it be. Would like some feedback please.

My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/saurfang/mackoy/advanced

Thanks in advance.

Roshengar
04-26-2011, 05:38 PM
A few things jump out to me gear wise:
- Lose the DPS Neck for a tanking one
- Swap pure mastery gems into yellow sockets over mast/stam
- If not going for socket bonus, pure mastery as well.
- Reforging- reforge off hit & expertise, not INTO hit/exp. Usually into mastery.
- Leaden Despair- replace when you can (Porcelain crab, throngus finger)
- Ranged slot- get the weapon out of Winds dungeon.

But all that will just give you some small benefits, far more important is tank behaviour:
- Never get hit in the back (strafe is your friend)
- Avoid avoidable damage...
- Interrupts & make your melee use them too
- Spell reflect, shield block on cooldown.
- Shield Wall & Last Stand anytime big hits are incoming
- USE your On Use with the Mirror when magic damage is incoming (and shield block now)
----- Maintain demo shout & tclap at all times on groups of trash or bosses

Haven't looked at your spec but make sure you have Field Dressing for + healing recieved.

Meshuggah
04-26-2011, 05:44 PM
I would just add to make sure your using Hex/Fear/Bind Elemental/Sheep if you have them. One less person hitting you is a good thing. :D

SageoftheTimes
04-26-2011, 05:57 PM
Also note that Parry is decent for warriors, so you want to go for that over dodge, up to 2:1 parry/dodge. Expertise and hit aren't hot stats, as Roshengar suggested, they're just nice add-ons.

Kazeyonoma
04-26-2011, 06:19 PM
moved to HALP!

Loganisis
04-27-2011, 10:21 AM
One thing I want to point out is why Parry > Dodge for warriors - since the diminishing returns are the same for both, it's because of the interaction Parry has with the Hold the Line talent and how that talent interacts with mastery/block. If it wasn't for HtL, Parry = Dodge. But because Parry procs HtL and HtL buffs block, Parry > Dodge. Usually you try to keep parry 2-5% higher than dodge. The more mastery you have, the more parry you'll want than dodge.

Now... You're not doing Hard Mode raiding, so gemming:

Yellow = 40 Mastery
Blue = 20 mastery /30 stam
Red = 20 parry / 20 mastery
Prismatic = 40 mastery
DPS Slot bonus = 40 Mastery


Talents - take 1 point out of Cruelty and put it in Deep wounds. Deep Wounds > Cruetly for threat.

Glyphs - Resonating Power is a bad major glyph. You'll have enough rage and TC is low on the priority. Go with something like Cleaving or Shockwave. I'd swap out Long Charge too. It just isn't really that helpuful. And since Rage isn't much of an issue, I'd swap the minor Beserker Rage glyph for Intimdiating Shout. It's useless on bosses but I find it very useful for trash in heroics and raids. Glyphed you can use int. shout as an interrupt every 2 minutes or to 'pause' incoming damage if it starts to get overwhelming.

****

Hit and Expertise - simply put. You don't need them. Reforge hit and expertise into Mastery > Parry/Dodge. If you feel you must use one or the other (you don't until hard modes) then use expertise because every ~120 rating will remove 1% dodge AND 1% parry whereas every 120 raiting will only remove 1% miss for hit. Exp is 2x as good as hit until 26 expertise.

In 4.1 Taunts and Pummel won't miss. So you don't actually need hit for anything survival related.


Reforging and Enchants
A) Neck = Grab a true tank neck, even at 346. 50 mastery and some extra stam and strength isn't going to give you the same return as something like http://www.wowhead.com/item=56319

B) Bracers - Switch to the dodge enchant.

C) Gloves - Reforge to mastery

D) Pants - you reforged dodge to hit and there's no mastery. Reforge to mastery.

E) Boots - You reforged parry to hit. Undo.

F) 1st Ring - You reforged dodge to hit. Undo.

G) 2nd Ring - You reforged parry to hit. Undo.

H) Shield - You reforged parry to hit. Undo.

I) Gun - You reforged exp to hit. Switch it to dodge/parry.

***

If you think you need the hit/exp for holding aggro, then post your priority system, because you don't, so there's probably some places we can tighten up your priority to improve your threat.

Good luck :)

Rigwarl
04-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Also:
Shoulders: Reforge your hit to mastery, not your dodge to mastery. Also, I would recommend parry/mastery gem, but that is personal preference.
Bracers: Reforge your expertise to mastery, not your dodge to mastery.
Ranged: Reforge expertise to dodge or parry, I would recommend dodge since yours is incredibly low, not losing much from DR.
Gloves: Would recommend 40 mastery in the prismatic, again, preference.
Belt: HERE is a great place for the Mastery/Stam gem in the blue socket. 20 mastery + 10 dodge + 30 stam > 40 mastery (simplified 10 dodge+30 stam > 20 mastery)

Just looking at how you gear, seems you think dodge is something you DON'T want... when really it is still a very important stat. HtL makes parry edge ahead, but dodge is still a way better stat than all the hit you are trying to reforge into. All you needed to know to see that something was wrong was when you look at your reforge breakdown you have -100 parry --> +117 parry.

Loganisis
04-27-2011, 12:07 PM
@Rigwarl - Diminishing returns take effect as soon as you have some - it gets steeper as you get more, but doesn't suddenly appear at some point.

Shoulders and Bracers - there is still debate on this. If dodge/parry have 2x the rating of hit/exp on a gear (e.g. 200 dodge and 100 hit) you actually can end up with more avoidance/mitigation reforging the dodge or parry into mastery (since mastery is 1.5x the unhittability per rating point and has no DR). The deeper you are into DR, the less you give up too as you reforge into mastery from a survival stat.

Rigwarl
04-27-2011, 12:37 PM
@Loganisis
Bracers: Napkin math tells me it is a loss of 76 dodge to get 32 mastery. With 1.5x the unhittable rate we could say 76dodge vs 48 mastery.
Shoulders: Same math, 86 dodge vs 38 mastery, or 86 dodge vs 57 mastery @ 1.5x rate.
I could see that happening in upper tiers, and maybe even being fairly common in later tier levels, but pretty rare at the moment. Pretty much only see it in items with lopsided budgets.

With the DR, I remember math somewhere showing that before I think it was 12.5% the DR on those was basically negligible, can't find it now and it may be half remembered anyway. Either way, dodge is not anywhere close to being tossed out the window just yet.

Loganisis
04-27-2011, 12:58 PM
True, the wrists aren't twice the value of threat stat, so:

190 dodge + 111 hit = either:

Reforge Dodge: 116 dodge + 76 mastery = 116 + (76*1.5) = 116 + 114 = 230 effective survial rating points

Reforge Hit: 190 dodge + 44 mastery = 190 + (44*1.5) = 190 + 66 = 256

So reforging hit is a win in this case. I didn't look close enough at the #s.

I do remember something about something in the 12-14% range, but there is a difference between no DR and minimal DR. There is DR, just not much of it until you get more of the rating. That was the point I was trying to make. DR starts from 1 point whatever the curve is.

Rigwarl
04-27-2011, 01:08 PM
Yea, in his case from DR he is losing .40-.45% dodge (Too lazy to do more than estimate)... Yet on parry he is losing out on a whole 1.7%. I think it was 12.5% when you lose your first whole percentage point of dodge/parry, that may have been it. I only ever check the numbers when big content patches land or I see a tank who is better geared than I am doing something odd (massive Hit stacking for the past few weeks, making my healer toons cry in heroics).

Gregasaurous
05-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Ok, i'm gonna make a few short points which have already been made. You have a few Pure stam Gems where you should have pure Mastery. You have 2 VP peices and you're still not at the "soft cap" Quite simply you just need to make MUCH better use of you geming and reforges. You still have soe stats reforged INTO hit. This is a waste. You have over half a dozen items with poor reforging choices.
You also have mending on you weapon. Fix all the things mentioned by myself and everybody else and i think you'll find this to be a highly impractical enchant.

Pdneves
05-02-2011, 03:18 AM
Thank you all for your input, I have already reforged everything. The problem is that I talked to one of the main tanks from my old realm and he told me the prio was mastery > parry > stamina > dodge, so I followed him, but now after reading all this posts I can see dodge is important too. Should I try to balance dodge = parry? I'm a bit confused now.

Thanks.

Fetzie
05-02-2011, 03:36 AM
I would say that mastery >> (parry ≥ dodge) ≈ stamina > threat stats or in words Mastery is better than parry (which is slightly better than dodge), P+D are about as good as stamina (stamina covers the times when you don't parry, dodge or block), all of these are better than hit and expertise (which lost its potential.

I am not all that up to speed on HTL mechanics, but you will be wanting a slightly higher parry chance than dodge chance for the higher crit block chance.

Pdneves
05-02-2011, 05:18 AM
So I changed what was suggested, reforged all hit and exp I had, now running ZG with a Frost DK doing 18k dps I couldn't even hold aggro at bosses :O, my combat log shows alot of misses and dodges. I end up with this:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/saurfang/mackoy/advanced

So maybe I should reforge at least some dodge to some hit till I can have 4% or?

Pdneves
05-02-2011, 05:23 AM
Forgot to mention my rotation

I usually go for: HT / Charge / SS (with SB up) / Concussion Blow / Shield Slam / Rend / Rev / Dev / HS / HT / Shockwave, then TC to refresh rend, SB always on CD and repeat and I use every SS possible.

kopcap
05-02-2011, 05:47 AM
How do you manage to pull off another SS after a CB and then another HT 6 sec later?

Learn the correct rotation -> practice on dummies -> practice in 5 man.

Pdneves
05-02-2011, 06:25 AM
How do you manage to pull off another SS after a CB and then another HT 6 sec later?

Learn the correct rotation -> practice on dummies -> practice in 5 man.

This doesn't mean I use them right away...learn to read posts first then give your feedback. Thanks anyway.

Reev
05-02-2011, 06:33 AM
This doesn't mean I use them right away...learn to read posts first then give your feedback. Thanks anyway.

Actually, by the way rotations are typically shorthanded on basically any forum related to WoW, he's reading it correctly, and your rotation suggests you simply leave 2 open global cooldowns between your concussion blow and your second shield slam, and doesn't make any mention at all of Heroic Strike until like right before your second heroic throw.

In other words, describe your rotation with all its parts, or give us your priority system. Listing a bunch of abilities in an order like the one above doesn't really give us any info, unless you really are having such long pregnant pauses in your ability usage.

I think "learn to read posts" is really unfounded in this case.

Pdneves
05-02-2011, 06:41 AM
Ok then, in the pull I usually start with: HT > Charge + SB -> SS > Conc Blow > Rend > Rev > Devastate after I go for SS (everytime possible and SB always on CD) > Concussion Blow/Shockwave > Rev > TC to refresh rend > Devastate.

Illidra
05-03-2011, 04:49 AM
you're missing 514 dodge/parry rating to gin threat stats you dont need.

mastery is king as it makes damage intake smooooooother so the healer can use consistent low cost helas.

Gregasaurous
05-03-2011, 06:00 AM
Ok, It may be because i'm on an old mac and the page just didn't load right (if so i apologize in advance for this post), but your armory link still shows reforge into hit rating. It still shows a lot of gems that should be straight mastery but aren't. If you are concerned about the level of health you have, don't be. Having your stat's at or well above the soft-cap will GREATLY reduce your need for all that extra stamina you have gem'd in. You shouldn't have to worry about how much health you have until hard-mode raids.

Pdneves
05-03-2011, 03:23 PM
Ok, It may be because i'm on an old mac and the page just didn't load right (if so i apologize in advance for this post), but your armory link still shows reforge into hit rating. It still shows a lot of gems that should be straight mastery but aren't. If you are concerned about the level of health you have, don't be. Having your stat's at or well above the soft-cap will GREATLY reduce your need for all that extra stamina you have gem'd in. You shouldn't have to worry about how much health you have until hard-mode raids.

Well I have followed the advice of reforging hit to mastery but the problem is that I kept losing aggro on mobs or bosses, if the shield slam fails to hit it's a messy fight, I had 0 hit. So I changed back, as for gems I haven't changed them yet. But thanks for the advice.

sifuedition
05-03-2011, 03:48 PM
With 0 - 2% hit and < 10 expertise...if you are losing threat, you are either not getting your rotation correct or your dps are not on the right targets. If you are not marking, there is no right target.

Pdneves
05-03-2011, 05:46 PM
With 0 - 2% hit and < 10 expertise...if you are losing threat, you are either not getting your rotation correct or your dps are not on the right targets. If you are not marking, there is no right target.

Well in LFD you get all kind of people, most of them tell you no need to mark just go... if they get aggro then tank is bad. I tried to use Wartotem spreadsheet to check the best rotation but I don't understand much of it :\. So don't know which rotation is the most correct for my case.

aresius
05-05-2011, 03:11 PM
Probably just not poping cooldowns adequately, or ccing when its necissary.
Most tanking problems are more with the pull then the gear.