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Victhepally
04-19-2011, 07:23 PM
Ive been tanking for a little over 2 months now and my group is currently 9/12. Things have been going well so far but recently I've run into some threat issues. Mostly this is a problem with the ret pally in my group and also when I need to taunt off the DK tank. An example of the problems I'm having with the ret pally is that last night on Atramedes, I was going along doing my rotation and dodging discs when out of nowhere about 30 seconds into the fight the ret has pulled aggro. I quickly taunt it back but now I've got the ret trailing me in threat all the way into the air phase. This isn't a huge deal as I can get aggro back quickly but on bosses that hit very hard that could be a dead DPS which hurts in 10 man. I would really like to find a way to fix that issue. I'm willing to talk to the ret to see if there are any changes they can make to help me.

Now with the DK tank the problem I'm having is completely different. Ill be tanking Chim for example and he'll taunt off me when its time. Then when it comes time for myself to taunt back I'll get aggro for a few seconds before it goes back to the MT. This doesn't happen often as the DK knows not to attack for a few seconds after I taunt but he can occasionally pull it back even after waiting. For some reason I really just have trouble competing with him in threat.

I'm almost 100% positive I'm executing my rotation correctly but I still don't know what the problem is. I even pop wings + Diving Plea (SHotR) at the beginning of fights and whenever its available for after a taunt to help as much as possible.

Here is a link to my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/cenarion-circle/viciouschick/simple.

I know that my hit and expertise are low but from what I've read they are wasted stats when compared to mitigation like mastery, dodge, parry. I'm still debating losing out on some avoidance though because losing threat is just not good.

jere
04-19-2011, 07:52 PM
Post what rotation you use. Never hurts to check.

Victhepally
04-19-2011, 08:23 PM
I start out by popping Divine Plea + Wings. From there I taunt the boss and go into my rotation of SHotR>CS>J>CS>AS>CS>SHotR. I can usually keep this going throughout the fight and will throw in with a WoG depending on how much damage I'm taking. I don't normally use Consecration as it kills mana and if I need a filler I'll use HW or HoW depending on where the boss's health is at. I try to save up 3 HoPo if I know a tank switch is coming soon so I can quickly get a jump on threat from the DK after taunting.

Tengenstein
04-19-2011, 09:17 PM
I can't see anything wrong, so time to risk sounding patronizing, apologies; What Seal are you using?

I do find the Atramedes hits really weakly and such Vengenace (and in my case Rage) don't build up quickly or in great amounts, leading it to be quite threat sensitive, I don't know if that would tanslate over to paladins as well.The tank swapping on chimaeron is sensitive as usually the Double attack tank Doesn't maintain their vengeance stacks between taunts and so is generally having to start afresh each time they taunt, the other tank will usually have some vengeance stacked so they really need to back off.

klausi
04-19-2011, 11:18 PM
No reason to back off, just time your taunts right for Chimaeron's DA. The maintank shouldn't stop pumping dps into him unless something goes wrong. For every other boss swaps: any serious tank will gain aggro back if they don't back off after you taunted the boss thanks to vengeance - especially DK's with their alway hitting runestrikes.

Overeager ret paladins: Do they use hand of salvation? Do you use hand of salvation (mouseover!) on them?

Seal of choice: use SoT for the start, you can swap to SoI later on if you feel comfortable with your threat lead.

Fetzie
04-20-2011, 01:12 AM
Ret paladins are a problem for a lot of people, as their burst DPS can be rather intimidating (ours starts the fight at about 30k dps, while his overall dps at the end of the fight is 8-10k lower). The only way to really save him is to chain hand of salvations. You basically have to pray your ShoR hits the first time :) Our other dps do not have this problem.

As for Chimaeron and other tank swap fights. I always make sure to have a ShoR and if possible an AS ready to fire off when I taunt the boss. If this doesn't work your OT needs to learn to hold off and you need to make use of righteous defense.

Victhepally
04-20-2011, 11:52 AM
Thanks for the replies. I do use SoT so it is nice to know that isn't where the problem lies. The ret pally does use Hand of Salvation now that I think about it and that is something I should start using to help reduce her threat.


No reason to back off, just time your taunts right for Chimaeron's DA. The maintank shouldn't stop pumping dps into him unless something goes wrong.


Not sure what you are referring to here. Is this some kind of strategy that some tanks use on Chimaeron?

leethaxor
04-20-2011, 02:50 PM
Not sure what you are referring to here. Is this some kind of strategy that some tanks use on Chimaeron?

What they are saying is that the MT can pass the OT in threat and will quickly, but if the taunt is timed correctly it will not matter as the OT will just need to hold the boss for a split second (or two) to take the double attack.

see below:

Double attack inc > OT taunts > Double attack happens (Chim still attacking OT) > MT passes OT in threat, and takes boss back with or without taunt > ??? > Collect purples (aka profit)



The ret pally does use Hand of Salvation now that I think about it and that is something I should start using to help reduce her threat.

I don't know a single dps class that benefits from dieing 20 seconds into the encounter from pulling aggro. Sarcasm aside, use it. But then I am a dps main not a tank.

Victhepally
04-20-2011, 02:55 PM
What they are saying is that the MT can pass the OT in threat and will quickly, but if the taunt is timed correctly it will not matter as the OT will just need to hold the boss for a split second (or two) to take the double attack.

see below:

Double attack inc > OT taunts > Double attack happens (Chim still attacking OT) > MT passes OT in threat, and takes boss back with or without taunt > ??? > Collect purples (aka profit)


This is what I was talking about. Is this a common strat? My group usually lets one tank reach 2 stacks, pop a CD, get a third stack and have it taunted immediately. Then the other tank does the same until 3 stacks at which point the original tank taunts it back. Rinse. Repeat. So far this has worked pretty well for us.

leethaxor
04-20-2011, 02:58 PM
Yeah that's how my group did it. Having the same tank take break stacks normally then taking a DA was just to much. Or it was for us.

Victhepally
04-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Yeah on nights where the either I or the other tank haven't been able to make it that wasn't doable with pugged tanks.

Insahnity
04-20-2011, 04:46 PM
I still don't see what seal you are using, Truth or Insight? Given that the DK is waiting for you to get threat, and with a little luck you can get in a reckoning proc, that should be enough for you to build up a 5 stack of truth. If you are using insight, that may be part of the problem.

You can also look into the viability of weaving in an Inquisition instead of WoG, just before you taunt. Popping wings only works for the first go, and Inquisition is actually slightly better (30% increase to holy power instead of flat 20% increase), if you can time it correctly.

Victhepally
04-20-2011, 04:58 PM
Posted that I use SoT above.

And how long does Inquisition last? That may be something I'll consider using if I get EG procs and have 3 HoPo to spend.

Insahnity
04-20-2011, 05:08 PM
Sorry, I didn't see that. Inquisition lasts 4 seconds per point. Realistically speaking, if you spend one HoPo, that's 2 GCDs (maybe one with lag). Spending 2 or more is easier to work with. And yeah, EG is great. As an interesting fact, are you able to Proc and hold a Sacred Duty for when you resume your threat? a ShotR Crit to the face is damn near impossible to shake, especially with Inquisition up.

Victhepally
04-20-2011, 05:38 PM
That doesn't seem too difficult. The proc lasts for a while and with Inq i could totally see it generating a ridiculous amount of threat. Looks like I might be testing this tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.

Buffalowings
04-21-2011, 04:16 AM
You could have a hunter use a misdirect or a rogue trick you at the start. This will help increasing initial threat.

Or you could nicely point out that the retri paladin should watch his own threat, since staying alive is HIS (Or her) responsibility. If he is the only one coming close to your threat this is more a problem that he (or she) should be working on.

Fetzie
04-21-2011, 04:21 AM
If you use a 3 HoPo Inquisition you can use it on the following ShoR provided your CS all land and the ShoR lands on the first attempt. Makes for some rather nice numbers together with avenging wrath.

You can also hit Divine Plea for an instant 3 HoPo move.

Cptwhoopass
04-21-2011, 05:24 AM
Or you could nicely point out that the retri paladin should watch his own threat, since staying alive is HIS (Or her) responsibility. If he is the only one coming close to your threat this is more a problem that he (or she) should be working on.

This is very true, But if your like me Its only brief, and I catch right back up. The best way for this ret pally 2 watch his or her threat is 2 let him/her die a couple times.

klausi
04-21-2011, 06:26 AM
This is what I was talking about. Is this a common strat? My group usually lets one tank reach 2 stacks, pop a CD, get a third stack and have it taunted immediately. Then the other tank does the same until 3 stacks at which point the original tank taunts it back. Rinse. Repeat. So far this has worked pretty well for us.
This is a common strat and the advantages are
a) both tanks have all their cooldowns ready for phase 2
b) you don't need to burn your healer mana to top the DA tank off asap - he only eats one big hit every 30s while the break eater needs to be above 10k for every swing
c) you can also run with only one regular tank eating the DA while a dps (dps warrior in defstance, dk in bloodpresence or ret with righteous fury on) eats the breaks, this increases your rdps by roughly 10kish


What they are saying is that the MT can pass the OT in threat and will quickly, but if the taunt is timed correctly it will not matter as the OT will just need to hold the boss for a split second (or two) to take the double attack.
That's what i'm talking about. Taunt fixate the boss on you for 3 seconds.

5, DA cast
4
3
2
1
0, DA connect

If you taunt anywhere between 3 seconds and the connect you can guarantee that you'll eat it while the break eater (regulary a DPS) doesn't have to worry about aggro.